Eyelets

[msasky]

When did race bikes stop coming with fender eyelets? I'm looking for a vintage lightweight with some room for 28's and fenders. Who made some nice go fast stuff back in the day that would work?

[11.4]

Bikes stopped coming with fender eyelets, brake clearances tightened so there wasn't room for much of a tire plus fenders under the brakes, then brake bridges and fork crowns got lower (remember the Serotta F1?). Modern bikes aren't set up for full fenders in a number of ways. Living in a wet part of the country, I have a couple bikes with fenders and fender clearances, but it's a challenge -- trying to fit a 24 mm tire like the Vittoria Pave plus a low-profile fender is very close and prone to rubbing. The point is that just adding eyelets back on a custom frame won't get you back to a real wet-capable bike. Get a cross frame with eyelets and you're probably better off, as long as you can tolerate the cross geometry on longer road rides.

[msasky]

11.4,
what do you mean adding eyelets wont give you a wet capable bike?

Anyhow, I'm curious about what year was the tipping point? And previous to that what bike makers were producing race bikes with fenders. Looking around I've spotted various vintage bikes with eyelets but for the most part very few.

[retrogrouchy]

11.4,
what do you mean adding eyelets wont give you a wet capable bike?

Anyhow, I'm curious about what year was the tipping point? And previous to that what bike makers were producing race bikes with fenders. Looking around I've spotted various vintage bikes with eyelets but for the most part very few.

Americans accelerated the trend away from eyelets, probably beginning around 1970 or so. Too heavy! (!). Campagnolo introduced the short (1010/B) dropout in 1974, which didn't have an eyeletted version (the older, longer, 1010 dropouts were available with and without eyelets).

They (eyelets) slowly disappeared over about a decade, so by about 1980 only specialized frames had eyelets, in almost all cases. The Brits were befuddled by all of this, btw. They (typically) had one bike, with eyelets. They even had brackets to carry wheels on the fork to a race, then switch wheels, remove the mudguards (fenders), do the race, reverse the procedure, ride home. Whew! We are too lazy in 'murrica to do all that!

[Marcusaurelius]

I remember the bridgestone RB 1 and RB 2 had fender eyelets and although I never tried they were supposed to have clearance for fenders and tires. I had a lemond with fender eyelets but they were strickly for show (I could't fit fenders and tires--fender yes--but tire--no).

[ergott]

I just got a road bike for fender use. No more details yet and I would prefer to present the finished product. I'm waiting on some stuff.

Needless to say, it definitely is a challenge, but I found a stock frame that is rather inexpensive and not even that rare.

[dimsy]

11.4,
what do you mean adding eyelets wont give you a wet capable bike?

Anyhow, I'm curious about what year was the tipping point? And previous to that what bike makers were producing race bikes with fenders. Looking around I've spotted various vintage bikes with eyelets but for the most part very few.

I can't speak for 11.4 directly, but I'd imagine he means that just adding eyelets (via a retro-brazing, or whatever) still wouldn't do anything for the tire + fender clearance. you may be able to add fenders, but since the brake bridge wouldn't move you'd be very limited in your choices for tire size.

I'm with you on this one. I'd love to see a "go fast" sorta bike with room for fenders and larger tires. I'm thinking for commuting strictly. I pack very light and like to go very fast, but dragging my 'nago or ti bike to work would just be impractical.

Good luck in your search!

[ergott]

I'm with you on this one. I'd love to see a "go fast" sorta bike with room for fenders and larger tires. I'm thinking for commuting strictly. I pack very light and like to go very fast, but dragging my 'nago or ti bike to work would just be impractical.

Good luck in your search!

Exactly what I'm solving. It'll be on the road this week.

[54ny77]

Yup.... :)

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_1382.jpg


I'm with you on this one. I'd love to see a "go fast" sorta bike with room for fenders and larger tires. I'm thinking for commuting strictly. I pack very light and like to go very fast, but dragging my 'nago or ti bike to work would just be impractical.

Good luck in your search!

[ergott]

PS - If you really want to go cheap, do a SS road bike based around a 27" wheel frame. They usually have the eyelets. Use Long reach brakes since 700c wheels are smaller and you have plenty of room for tires/fenders. I did this once with a Schwinn World Tour I got on the cheap.

Something like this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/SCHWINN-SUPER-LE-TOUR-X-TRA-LITE-27-ROAD-BIKE-1983_W0QQitemZ320516039080QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_ Bikes?hash=item4aa03ea1a8#ht_500wt_1182

[old_school]

Hampsten currently offers a couple of options: Strada Bianca and Crema.

On the cheap, Salsa Casseroll (not sure if it is still available as a frameset - but comes with long horizontal dropouts so you can easily run fixed or geared.)

[54ny77]

Hampsten bikes: seriously drool-worthy.

Since this is a Serotta forum and all...something tells me you could get one rigged with all the eyelets you need. The only thing extra to consider is fork with a taller crown (to accommodate bigger tires + fenders). At the moment, with Alpha Q gone (at least for some period of time), that's a serious bit of a headache.

Hampsten currently offers a couple of options: Strada Bianca and Crema.

On the cheap, Salsa Casseroll (not sure if it is still available as a frameset - but comes with long horizontal dropouts so you can easily run fixed or geared.)

[ergott]

Yup.... :)

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_1382.jpg


Nice bike.

Nice wheels;-)

[BengeBoy]

Living in Seattle, I've been collecting a list of stock "go fast" bikes that come with eyelets.

There may be more, but here's my top-of-mind list:

1. The new Gary Fisher Cronos road bike. Comes with hidden fender eyelets. A little attachment screws into the eyelets, then you mount the fenders on that. Very nice bike, IMHO. Takes up to 25c tires with fenders. One of only a few CF frames w/eyelets.

2. I just noticed last week that Jamis has a new for 2010 bike called the Jamis Xenith Endura, which supposedly has enough clearance for 28c tires with fenders or 32c tires without. The Jamis Xenith has been the Jamis "go fast" CF bike; the "Endura" is more of a long-distance bike with a taller headtube, meant to compete with the Specialized Roubaix (the Roubaix has no fender clearance to speak of, no eyelets last time I looked).

3. In steel, there is is the new Chris King Cielo "sportif" frame. I saw this at a bike show and it's a great looking frame. New last fall.

4. Also in steel, but a bit more money, is the Co-Motion Nor'Wester. Takes 28c tires with fenders (not to be confused with the Co-Motion Nor'Wester Tour, which is more of a touring bike).

5. Honey Bikes, the new "value" line of bikes from Seven, has a steel go-fast bike they call the "all weather" bike that has provisions for fenders.

6. Rodriguez, the semi-custom maker in Seattle, has a bike called the Rainier that has provision for fenders.

7. Velo Orange has a new Rando frame.

8. Soma Double Cross.

9. Baron Bicycles, a Seattle based custom maker, has a couple of bikes that come with fender eyelets, including the Baron Outsider, which was designed as a winter "rain bike" for road training.

10. For something different, there is the Orbea Diem flat-bar commuting bike. Has fender eyelets, and can also take big tires and rear rack. In Europe is comes with drop bars but in the US, flat-bar only. Strangely, there is no good way to attach a rear fender to the rear of the bottom bracket (down below the chainstays), but you could make do w/zip ties or something.

If you go vintage, there are any number of 80's Japanese "sport touring" bikes around that came with fender eyelets. These bikes were a bit beefier than all-out racing bikes, much lighter than touring bikes. example: Univega Gran Rally, or some of the Miyata sport touring bikes. Had Tange Prestige Tubing, Shimano 600 (Ultegra-level) components.

[Ken Robb]

most of Rivendell's offerings take fenders and tires of at least 28mm. Some have double eyelets for fenders and racks.

[old_school]

I am sure the market is limited, but I wonder if Serotta would ever consider manufacturing an F3 edition designed for 57mm calipers? The F3 is an outstanding fork (and, of course we all know Ben & Co. builds wonderful bicycles); the ability to add fenders, for those of us in the NorthEast and NorthWest, would be icing on the cake.

[Doug Fattic]

The demise of dropout eyelets corresponded with the rise in popularity of short reach brakes. In other words when "standard reach" brakes that had 47 to 57mm of clearance were replaced with 39 to 49mm brakes. I don't remember exactly when this change took place. I think it was shortly after 1975 when I built my racing frame with standard reach brakes when I was learning in England. Before 1980 short reach brakes were the norm. There were a number of sport touring Japanese and Trek steel frames from the early 80's that had 47 to 57mm of brake clearance. They also had slightly longer chain stays and probably rack eyelets too.

There is now a big trend back to longer brakes. Of the last 100 students in my framebuilding classes I think only 3 have used 39 to 49mm brakes. Of course the type of person taking these classes is primarily concerned about getting around more than going fast (even though they might want to go fast getting around).

The most likely source are British frames like Bob Jackson or Mercians. They don't live in a desert and like to keep road grunge off of themselves and their bikes.

[msasky]

Good info, thanks guys.

[11.4]

I am sure the market is limited, but I wonder if Serotta would ever consider manufacturing an F3 edition designed for 57mm calipers? The F3 is an outstanding fork (and, of course we all know Ben & Co. builds wonderful bicycles); the ability to add fenders, for those of us in the NorthEast and NorthWest, would be icing on the cake.

On the fork it'd require longer clearance plus of course eyelets on the fork tips (who wants to use P-clips on a custom long-reach Serotta fork anyway). Then you have to use a long-reach brake caliper, and the ones out there are a far cry from the standard short-reach calipers currently available. And that's only your front end. Then you have to worry about the rear triangle as well.

And do remember that you will almost certainly be living with significant toe clip overlap (why do I still call it that when toe clips are long gone?) when you factor in fat tires plus fenders.

Basically to do a really nice rain-capable bike calls for fender eyelets, frame clearances all around, a custom steel fork, better long-reach calipers than are available in the market (and they seem to need more lever travel to actuate, which is increasingly a problem with STI and Ergo levers), and you might as well think about some smart way to mount or run lights. I wish L&M or Nightrider would standardize their mountings long enough so I could simply have a fork mount for, say, a Stella. Then it doesn't have to clutter up the bars so much. (And when can we have a Stella with a red lens for rearward use?)

Buddy flaps are critical to fenders as well.

Note that Serotta likes to install fender eyelets in the rear inside the cutouts of the stay-ends. The only problem is that some fenders, such as SKS, don't have stays long enough to have the eyelet positioned that low. So if you're serious about fender eyelets, have them mounted on top of the stay-ends or even up on the seatstay.

[54ny77]

call me biased.....but these are the answer to very nice long reach brakes (other than shimano). seriously. throw a pair of kool stop black or salmon pads and they're as functionally good as anything i've had or tried and--at least to me--better looking too.

http://www.velo-orange.com/grcrulorecab.html

...Basically to do a really nice rain-capable bike calls for fender eyelets, frame clearances all around, a custom steel fork, better long-reach calipers than are available in the market (and they seem to need more lever travel to actuate, which is increasingly a problem with STI and Ergo levers)...

[Bob Ross]

I remember the bridgestone RB 1 and RB 2 had fender eyelets and although I never tried they were supposed to have clearance for fenders and tires.

I have a Bridgestone 600 from 1985 and it has all the eyelets & clearances necessary; works wonderfully with full-coverage (SKS/Esge) fenders.

Been looking for a new bike for the missus so she can ride in the rain, and I just noticed that some of the lower end 2010 Cannondale Synapses have eyelets...gonna check out whether the forks have clearance for fenders in the next week or two, will keep y'all posted.

[retrogrouchy]

The demise of dropout eyelets corresponded with the rise in popularity of short reach brakes. In other words when "standard reach" brakes that had 47 to 57mm of clearance were replaced with 39 to 49mm brakes. I don't remember exactly when this change took place. I think it was shortly after 1975 when I built my racing frame with standard reach brakes when I was learning in England. Before 1980 short reach brakes were the norm. There were a number of sport touring Japanese and Trek steel frames from the early 80's that had 47 to 57mm of brake clearance. They also had slightly longer chain stays and probably rack eyelets too.

There is now a big trend back to longer brakes. Of the last 100 students in my framebuilding classes I think only 3 have used 39 to 49mm brakes. Of course the type of person taking these classes is primarily concerned about getting around more than going fast (even though they might want to go fast getting around).

The most likely source are British frames like Bob Jackson or Mercians. They don't live in a desert and like to keep road grunge off of themselves and their bikes.

Doug nailed it on this issue. Most new lugged steel frames are being designed around 'regular-reach' brakes these days (47-57 mm, best to go about 55 if you want to maximize tire and fender options).

[Marcusaurelius]

I've been using Tektro R538 brakes for some time now on my winter bike and they work very well. The Kona Honky Tonk is a steel frame and uses long reach brakes and it has eyelets. I'm not a fan of the sloping top tube but I supposed one could get used to it. The 2009 model was superior to the 2010 with it's dura ace downtube shifters instead of the Sora of 2010.

[scrooge]

Speaking of fender ready. Mmmmmm.

http://www.hampsten.com/bikes/crema/

[v531xc]

I think the Soma Smoothie ES is designed with room for 28s and fenders. The Surly Pacer is too, iirc.

I know those aren't vintage selections, but I used to have a late '80s Centurion road frame made out of Tange 2 steel that easily took 28s. Fender clearance was tight for full fenders in the back, but they were easy to modify. The front fork had the perfect amount of room without modification to the fender. If you're not looking for anything particularly too exotic the Japanese choices (Bridgestone, Miyata, Univega, etc.) from the '80s seem to fit the bill. Also, Trek made nice lugged steel frames into the '90s that had eyelets and room for fenders. I think the later models were the 300 and 400 series, but I'm not 100% certain.