Serotta Sport - New faces new things

[Charles M]

Cycling Industry Veteran Stan Mavis Joining Serotta
New company, Serotta Sport, will be the exclusive N.A. distributor of Serotta custom bicycles, Catlike helmets and ETXEONDO apparel



April 15, 2010 – Saratoga Springs, NY – Stan Mavis, co-founder of Pearl Izumi and later president of Sugoi Performance Apparel, has been named president of the newly formed Serotta Sport, joining longtime friend and founder Ben Serotta. The company will continue to offer Serotta’s legendary custom, hand-built bicycles and also be the exclusive North American distributors of Catlike helmets and ETXEONDO cycling apparel.

“Ben and I have been friends since the early ‘90’s when we were sponsors of the Coors Light cycling team - he's a true pioneer in the world of cycling,” explains Mavis. “I couldn’t pass up this incredible opportunity to help lead a brand with a storied history and tremendous potential for the future. Furthermore, our partnership with Catlike and ETXEONDO creates a unique combination of premium ‘founder’ brands that have a chance to capitalize on the current domestic interest in premium European cycling products.”

The new Serotta Sport management team is comprised of Bonnie Mavis as VP of Sales, a 17-year veteran of customer service and sales for Nordstrom, Paraic McGlynn as Director of Applied Cycling Science for the Serotta International Cycling Institute, Patrick O’Farrell as Director of Operations and Mike Lopez as Director of Serotta Composites. As chairman of Serotta, Ben Serotta will continue to lead product innovation and development with exciting plans for the latter half of 2010 and the model year 2011.

Serotta Sport will focus on preserving Serotta’s renowned attention to detail in product development, and then expand that same philosophy into customer service and dealer support for its premium, custom bicycles. It will also grow the Serotta International Cycling Institute, a member-based organization dedicated to educating cyclists about the importance of proper bike fit. Lastly, Serotta Sport will be the exclusive distributor for Catlike helmets and ETXEONDO cycling apparel, two prestigious European cycling brands that are also still managed by their original founders.

Additionally, Serotta Sport has retained Colorado-based Backbone Media to manage its public relations. Backbone will support Serotta’s media communications, product placement, branded content and social media strategy.

About Serotta
Founded by master artisan Ben Serotta in 1972, Serotta is world-renowned for building premium, handcrafted, custom bicycles featuring progressive designs and the latest high-tech materials. Serotta is a vertically integrated bicycling company with its headquarters and manufacturing facility in Saratoga Springs, N.Y. and a wholly owned Serotta Composites carbon fiber facility in Poway, Calf. Serotta pioneered and continues to lead the science of custom bike fitting and is widely acknowledged as the “Porsche” of bicycles.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . have its own web developer? :rolleyes:

BBD

[gdw]

Interesting news.

Backbone Media, the one in Colorado not Boston, is a pretty decent firm.
http://www.backbonemedia.net/page.php

[David Kirk]

This is, IMHO, a huge deal.

dave

[fourflys]

I had the pleasure of meeting both Stan Mavis and Mike Lopez at the San Diego show, I had no idea who Stan Mavis was at the time...

Anyway, both guys were very nice and very informative and a pleasure to talk to... Much better than some of the other "legends" who were there...

I think this will be a huge step in a good direction for Serotta and, as I said before, I really like that new Colorado frameset... if it can eventually be brought to a little bit more reasonable price, it would be a "go to" frame/fork (but that's for another thread...)

[MattTuck]

Wow, this does sound like a big reorg! Best of luck to Serotta Sport in their efforts integrating it all. Other than some potential brand halo effect, I don't see much synergies between the 3 brands... but I am not deeply immersed in the bicycle industry. Maybe this opens up some retail channels that weren't available in the past? Or provides an advantage when trying to get LBSs on board?

[false_Aest]

Whoa I can finally get a Whisper and Etxe?!

Eff yeah America.

Thanks for doin good Serotta. Seriously

Next up, paint jobs that don't look like Trek

[Ozz]

That's pretty cool...looking forward to seeing how it develops.

Luv the E-O gear, just have a hard time finding it...at shops or online. An Serotta branded E-O kit would be very cool.

[ergott]

I'm not business savvy enough to understand what that all means. Sounds good, but what will this mean for the consumer?

[fourflys]

I'm not business savvy enough to understand what that all means. Sounds good, but what will this mean for the consumer?

My guess would be more product availabilty for all three?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that will provide a more diversified revenue stream to support the company. I don't think it's any secret that the specialty high-end bike business the last few years has not been booming.

It also injects new expertise and new ideas and the outside media company brings PR expertise that none of these companies independently might be able to afford to retain in-house.

BBD

[Ken Robb]

the cynic in me says "Bigger Payroll= Higher Prices"

[1centaur]

Come on people, you're not focusing on the important part! Serotta's going to have a "social media strategy." Will the Forum be part of that?

[rounder]

Come on people, you're not focusing on the important part! Serotta's going to have a "social media strategy." Will the Forum be part of that?

I hope so. I have been reading forum posts for about three years and it is rare that anyone has said anything negative about Serotta. Most discussions are at least informative and interesting...many are great. A rising tide lifts all boats? I have been riding serottas (only 2) for 20 years and believe in the company and the bikes. I hope the new relationship helps Serotta become a little more adaptable during these stressfull times. I hope this also benefits Kelly Bedford and Dave Kirk.

[eddief]

does that mean you can't afford it?

irreeeegardless, best of luck for the new deal in a new economy.

[Charles M]

Say


Etchy ondo

[eddief]

got it.

[false_Aest]

Itchy and Scratchy?

[victoryfactory]

It has been my impression, strictly as an outside observer,
that Mr Serotta has always been searching for a manager/group/partner
that can do for his company in the advertising/marketing/product placement
side of the business what he does for the bike design and production side.

IMO what the company needs is the focus and integration to make the brand
grow.

I hope this works well for everyone concerned.

VF

[BumbleBeeDave]

Come on people, you're not focusing on the important part! Serotta's going to have a "social media strategy." Will the Forum be part of that?

. . . and what is needed is not only someone working full time to represent the company on Twitter or Facebook. What is also needed are regular blog entries that present informative information about the company, its employees, and it products that present or potential owners might find helpful. Serotta could take an important lesson from the type of information Brendan at Competitive Cyclist presents on his web site. He makes no secret that yes, his object is for you to buy his products. But in that context there's a hell of a lot of useful information there.

Serotta also needs someone on the inside who will be present on the Forum every day and use it as the arena it could be in addressing owner and potential owner concerns and questions. Pete does that on an part time basis now--I say that because he's got other stuff to do and generally ends up stepping in when somebody shows up here and makes the observation that they can't get a living person on the phone in Saratoga, or they've left messages which weren't returned, or they've written to the e-mail listed on the web site multiple times and never gotten an answer.

And about those phone messages and e-mails . . . we should NEVER see those kind of complaints here because there should NEVER be an instance when it takes longer than 24 hours to return a phone message or e-mail. Just shouldn't happen.

THAT is REAL "social media" and has been for years. It's what people appreciate--and it's what really, REALLY turns off people to a company's products when they can't get it. Somebody on vacation? Somebody out sick? Problem with the e-mail account? They don't care. What counts is that they feel like they are ignored and the company doesn't care about them or getting their business.

The only thing different about all this Twitter and Facebook stuff is that now when it happens the dissed customer or potential customer has more power than every before to spread that dissatisfaction to hundreds or thousands of others who have a higher chance than ever of basing THEIR subsequent buying decisions on the other person's unpleasant experience.

The Serotta "Concierge" idea is the right idea--if it has the resources devoted to it to make sure it works. If this Re-org helps Serotta do that, then it's a great thing. If it doesn't, and people write to the "Concierge" and never get an answer, then it's gonna be a real problem.

I say these things not to be overly critical, but in a sincere hope that they are listening and will make it happen. I've always loved my Serotta and been a strong supporter of the company, but they definitely need to make some changes to keep from going down a very bad road. :crap:

BBD

[54ny77]

More biz = good.

Godspeed & good luck!

The interweb sure adds new layers of complexities...and costs (both direct & indirect, and for better or worse).

To think, many of us used to wait monthly or quarterly to get bike catalogs or publications...now we get internet-based, real-time pictures of things like chainring bolts at interbike! :banana:

[SEABREEZE]

This is not expansion, but sure business savy. Diversifying....

The economy is weak, high end bikes are not selling as they once did, how can we generate revenue. The resources are there,lets sell bike related clothing and equipment.

To top that off, they go after Top industry leaders to acheive there goal.

All ventures come with some risk, if this does pan out for them, they made the Serrota name a more widely reconizabele name in america as the world in households with twitter , facebook, this forum, net, etc etc..

Most importantly I want virgin blood in my company, they give you fresh and current perspective. Bill Gates is not a stupid man.Combine that with industry leaders, and you have a fighting chance.

Dont do anything half ass, if you aren't going to do it right, then dont do it at all.Wait till you have the resources to do it.

Let me be the one to say, please offer serrotta kits to us forum members before they hit the market.

[MIN]

I suppose this means that Catlike now passes American safety standards? IIRC that's why they were not available here previously.

[happycampyer]

I suppose this means that Catlike now passes American safety standards? IIRC that's why they were not available here previously.There was a blurb about this on ccyclingnews.com that was there yesterday but is gone today (maybe to update with the Serotta announcement?). It said that they the helmets available in the US would be in compliance with the US safety standards and would probably weigh slightly more than the European versions.

Catlike and EtxeOndo are both great companies to partner with.

[oldpotatoe]

This is, IMHO, a huge deal.

dave

Does that mean that when a dealer calls 'Serotta', they will call 'Serotta Sport' and do all their biz with them? If so, what happened to the 'staff' at Serotta? This sounds a lot like whay Merckx did. Did Ben 'sell' to this organization?

[Ti Designs]

Serotta also needs someone on the inside who will be present on the Forum every day and use it as the arena it could be in addressing owner and potential owner concerns and questions.


As much as I would like to agree, I think you're wrong. I find myself facing the same thing in my own life, I see cycling and the cycling community at the people I ride with. The business of cycling retail is very different, what I think of as the cycling community is really less than 2% of the market, and it's not the part I need to market the sport to. The same thing goes for this forum, it's a tiny percentage of the market and most of us know what a Serotta is by now.

I also don't know if many people here understand the financial situation that Serotta is in. A few years back Cannondale put themselves into a hole by starting up their motorcycle division including their own engine program. Going up against the likes of Honda for a bicycle company is a mistake, and they paid the price. More recently companies like Serotta and Seven - the people who were recognized for the finest titanium bikes, have decided to take on the likes of Trek, Giant and Specialized in carbon bikes. Yeh, their hands were forced by the change in technology, but that doesn't make it any easier a task. If we must count coffin nails, I would have to say our economy is a big one. The term "finest" is one few can afford these days, and faced with a choise of the finest or something for less than half the cost, you can guess where the sales are.

As our economy bounces back, many small companies will find market share in areas the big players miss. Specialized has a very stong line-up, but they always aim for the center of the bell curve. There is a percentage of riders who simply don't fit that standard, who need custom. This only works if two things are present - education about fit and what custom really offers, and available affordable bikes. This opinion comes from the guy who asked Serotta to make the La Corsa - an affordable custom titanium bike which was offered for a few years.

Just my opinion, probably wrong - I'm only right when I'm on my bike...

[Climb01742]

As much as I would like to agree, I think you're wrong. I find myself facing the same thing in my own life, I see cycling and the cycling community at the people I ride with. The business of cycling retail is very different, what I think of as the cycling community is really less than 2% of the market, and it's not the part I need to market the sport to. The same thing goes for this forum, it's a tiny percentage of the market and most of us know what a Serotta is by now.

I also don't know if many people here understand the financial situation that Serotta is in. A few years back Cannondale put themselves into a hole by starting up their motorcycle division including their own engine program. Going up against the likes of Honda for a bicycle company is a mistake, and they paid the price. More recently companies like Serotta and Seven - the people who were recognized for the finest titanium bikes, have decided to take on the likes of Trek, Giant and Specialized in carbon bikes. Yeh, their hands were forced by the change in technology, but that doesn't make it any easier a task. If we must count coffin nails, I would have to say our economy is a big one. The term "finest" is one few can afford these days, and faced with a choise of the finest or something for less than half the cost, you can guess where the sales are.

As our economy bounces back, many small companies will find market share in areas the big players miss. Specialized has a very stong line-up, but they always aim for the center of the bell curve. There is a percentage of riders who simply don't fit that standard, who need custom. This only works if two things are present - education about fit and what custom really offers, and available affordable bikes. This opinion comes from the guy who asked Serotta to make the La Corsa - an affordable custom titanium bike which was offered for a few years.

Just my opinion, probably wrong - I'm only right when I'm on my bike...

ed, what's selling on the floor these days? what price point seems to be the sweet spot? has the market for top-end bikes fallen off as much as folks say? thanks. just curious for an in-the-trenches POV.

[Ti Designs]

We've sold the Trek Di2 bike which was $10K, so there's money out there. But the marketing from Trek and Shimano is so strong that people come in looking for it. Our sales numbers are stong, but the custom board is maybe 1/4 full right now, and the Size Cycle isn't used very often any more. I know that shops specializing in custom sales are sticking to what they do, but for every custom they sell we sell 100 Tarmacs or Madones.

There is the need for more education about fit and the need for custom in some cases. I'm part of the fitting department at my shop, a few times a week I get someone who shows up on my stand that just fails to fit on their bike. I sell custom frames, but I'm guessing that most get misfit on stock bikes for lack of knowing any better.

[54ny77]

curious: if trek sells so many madones and so forth, where the heck are they? who's buying them? are they destined to be "the 10 speed hanging from the garage ceiling," bought by a part-time weekend warrior public?

on the east or west coasts, i rarely see 'em. seriously. for every trek, i see 20+ pinarellos or cervelos (or whatever other high end brand).

[fourflys]

curious: if trek sells so many madones and so forth, where the heck are they? who's buying them? are they destined to be "the 10 speed hanging from the garage ceiling," bought by a part-time weekend warrior public?

on the east or west coasts, i rarely see 'em. seriously. for every trek, i see 20+ pinarellos or cervelos (or whatever other high end brand).

Here in San Diego, you plenty of them along with Specialized's... Could be becuase have both Trek and Specialized Concept stores... Oh yeah, and a metric TON of Cervelo TT bikes...

[Ti Designs]

on the east or west coasts, i rarely see 'em. seriously. for every trek, i see 20+ pinarellos or cervelos (or whatever other high end brand).


So you're saying the average cost of a bike in this country is around $2500??? I'm fighting back the urge to make some political joke right about now...

[William]

curious: if trek sells so many madones and so forth, where the heck are they? who's buying them? are they destined to be "the 10 speed hanging from the garage ceiling," bought by a part-time weekend warrior public?




I can only speak for my area,

Where I live is a main route for cyclists heading into the Rhode Island backwoods and my kids and I have made it a game to spot what brands cyclists are riding when we see them driving around or passing the house. Hands down Specialized and Trek top the list. After that it’s Felt and Cervelo. Beyond that it’s a crap shoot what you might see. The upside is my kids know how to spot a Serotta, Pinerello, Bianchi, Calfee and Zanconato when they see one. :)



William

[false_Aest]

Here in San Diego, you plenty of them along with Specialized's... Could be becuase have both Trek and Specialized Concept stores... Oh yeah, and a metric TON of Cervelo TT bikes...


metric ton is actually spelled metric tonne\ :rolleyes:

[jlwdm]

metric ton is actually spelled metric tonne\ :rolleyes:

A quick google shows metric ton to be okay.

Jeff

[William]

I usually add the term "frickin" before the ton/tonne.

As in: "...and a frickin ton of Cervelos.". Or is it tonne? :rolleyes: :)




William

[54ny77]

no, i said madone's and so forth. madone's aren't inexpensive, and if they're selling a gazillion of 'em, where are they? that's all. i just never see them on the road or in races in the areas where i live or travel.

eh, whatever...trek can go bust for all i care.

So you're saying the average cost of a bike in this country is around $2500??? I'm fighting back the urge to make some political joke right about now...

[Ti Designs]

no, i said madone's and so forth. madone's aren't inexpensive, and if they're selling a gazillion of 'em, where are they? that's all. i just never see them on the road or in races in the areas where i live or travel.


Trek blindness, don't complain...

[Charles M]

If you get around enough, you don't hunt long for Trek or Specialized sightings... They are a 2-3+ to one ration in sightings as I travel. Some ride groups are a different demographic and the same is said for where you ride, but the big brands are the big brands...

That said, I think how we got on to Trek and spec is speculation that is more off track than on. I don’t mean that to sound like an argument, I've just had a lot of exposure there and while they were working through the past couple of years, they've not ever had petty goals, aspirations or delusions of being the next Trek.


Does that mean that when a dealer calls 'Serotta', they will call 'Serotta Sport' and do all their biz with them? If so, what happened to the 'staff' at Serotta?


I think this is a simple addition to the existing organization and offering...

[54ny77]

someday i would like to have myself a clean, simple custom serotta ti (or perhaps carbon) road bike, and at least half of that reason is because of this forum. seeing what they do to support the bike community, seeing what they do to support local jobs (via their west & east coast facilities, as well as supporting their dealer network) and seeing how rigorous they are with respect to quality control, well it just makes me a fan.

and by the way, their finishing work (paint, clear, decal, etc) is just...insanely good.

[sg8357]

Distributor makes me think of stock bikes, not made to measure.

Is Serotta going to offer stock size bikes ?

Locally Waterford and Serotta are the bikes of choice, Trek may be the
brand, but we don't have any TdF riders around here.

[rnhood]

I hope Serotta does increase its exposure in offering stock bikes. Just seeing the shear number of Treks and Specialized bikes out there (not to mention all the other lines) should tell one that the vast majority is perfectly content on a stock bike -- and I'm one of them.

For access to a broader market, and allowing more people to appreciate the ride and constructional characteristics of a Serotta, and potentially buy one, putting some bikes in stock seems to be the prudent thing to do.

[dvs cycles]

trek can go bust for all i care.
We don't need anymore US companies to go bust.
At least Trek still builds in the US compared to Specialized Taiwan frames.
If I were looking at an off the rack frame I would go with the Madone.
For the price it's a pretty good bike and there are plenty here in SoCal.

[Ozz]

...For the price it's a pretty good bike and there are plenty here in SoCal.
A woman I work with just bought a new Trek carbon frame this past weekend...not sure it is a Madone...but it looks like the 5.5 Madone on their website...anyways, I digress.

She's been talking about it all winter and was looking a a custom Rodriguez, but decided she liked the ride of the carbon bikes, and I think it was on sale. She finally has a bike and is looking to join a club and find some riding buddies. Point being, she is excited to have it and doesn't really care what brand it is...she just wants to ride it.

It's fun to see.

:beer:

[54ny77]

yes i apologize, i was being crass...that was not intended to be literal...sorry. :beer:

i'm sure they make a great bike. or at least a decent bike. sure have won a few--ahem!--big races on 'em in recent years... :D

We don't need anymore US companies to go bust.
At least Trek still builds in the US compared to Specialized Taiwan frames.
If I were looking at an off the rack frame I would go with the Madone.
For the price it's a pretty good bike and there are plenty here in SoCal.

[dvs cycles]

Thought as much. :beer:
Just want to see Companies that build good bikes here in the US like Serotta, Trek etc succeed. :beer:

[victoryfactory]

Serotta has tried many times to start up a stock bike
program.
They never seem to get it going.
I think they have spent all these years convincing people
they need custom so the customers think "why should I
get a Serotta if it's not custom?"
I also think their factory setup and mindset is not able
to produce the numbers that will be required at the price
point needed to put a dozen bikes in every dealers store
without out sourcing.
Sound familiar?
If they can solve this without devaluing the marque for
the custom buyers they will be worthy of a marketing
prize.

VF

[William]

Team deals on affordable racing iron for collegiate and uscf teams. Basically go back to the roots that got them started and grow a whole new generation of Serotta fans. I came up on the tail end of that...and then watched it peter out as they focused more on the higher end niche.




William

[oldpotatoe]

I hope Serotta does increase its exposure in offering stock bikes. Just seeing the shear number of Treks and Specialized bikes out there (not to mention all the other lines) should tell one that the vast majority is perfectly content on a stock bike -- and I'm one of them.

For access to a broader market, and allowing more people to appreciate the ride and constructional characteristics of a Serotta, and potentially buy one, putting some bikes in stock seems to be the prudent thing to do.

If they want to compete with trekspecializedgiantcannondalefelt, etc, the frames are going to be made in Asia. Not a bad thing but for a price point, $2000 bicycle, with current bells/whistles-Asian made.

[victoryfactory]

We don't need anymore US companies to go bust.
At least Trek still builds in the US compared to Specialized Taiwan frames.
If I were looking at an off the rack frame I would go with the Madone.
For the price it's a pretty good bike and there are plenty here in SoCal.

Trek builds their high end carbon in the USA, but they have outsourced the
rest of the stuff to Asia
Cannondale also did that at one point, Also many of the famous Euro brands
get all the parts in Asia and do paint/final assembly in Europe so they can
claim "made in Spain/France/Germany/Italy" etc.

As long as our hosts continue to make everything in the USA, They will be limited
in production/market penetration and price.
That's just the way it goes today.

Even Martin Guitar has cheaper models made in other countries with plywood tops!
Krell (a famous US based high end audio maker) now has amps made in Asia!
Leica slaps their name on Asian cameras!
Not that there is anything wrong with that.......

VF

[William]

If they want to compete with trekspecializedgiantcannondalefelt, etc, the frames are going to be made in Asia. Not a bad thing but for a price point, $2000 bicycle, with current bells/whistles-Asian made.


Could be done well if they were to retain control of the mfr process. CRKT (Columbia River Knife & Tool) is a good example. Different product, but well made at an excellent price point, and they maintain quality control.

The real issue would be fighting the stigma/perception of being made overseas.



William

[victoryfactory]

Wait! I got it!

Serotta tools up a plant in Taiwan and trains the staff to manufacture
their new High End Serotta designed line of stock frames:

"Saratoga"

You heard it here first

VF

[jblande]

Parlee is doing it and seems to have had quite a bit of excess. Z4 and Z5 have been extremely positively received, as near as I can tell.

[William]

I’m not implying what Serotta would or wouldn’t do if they were to go this route, but the assumption here so far is that under such a plan it would be done to lower costs for the consumer = lower price point. Just to point it out…many companies do this and retain the high price to pocket profit. This benefits the company, and not necessarily the end consumer. I’m not saying it’s wrong or right…just the flip side of the coin.




William

[rugbysecondrow]

I am no expert and I certainly can only provide limited insight since I know nothing about their expenses and how much it costs to build bike A vs bike B.

I think it was a great idea though to bring back the Colorado as a model. The pricepoint seems good, the name has staying power and it has lineage. A flagship product. Ditching it seems like a bad idea in hindsight, but reviving it seems smart. I think they should market that model more and get it out there. William had a great point regarding colleges and race teams, this Colorado is the perfect line for that IMO. Suprisingly, there is no mention of this on the homepage for Serotta. If you look, you see the "Ford" bike, then it switches to another Mevici then an Ottrot. It seems that they are highlighting mostly Carbon (and $7,000+ Carbon), but I wonder if that is really, or should be, the focus of their business. Hard to say, but I think that runs contrary to what might bring a consumer to Serottas website.

[victoryfactory]

The comparative virtues of all Ti, Ti with carbon stays, Carbon with Ti lug,
All Carbon, All Carbon but cheaper, etc etc may be obvious to an expert
customer but it is completely confusing to a regular person.

I have seen this on many websites and catalogs, not just Serotta not just bikes.

I wish some of these web/catalog designers would think from a customer's
perspective, not just an expert's. It does no good to have a well designed
well thought out product if you can't make these things clear to the customer.

Once everything is in order, you could then slot the new line of stock in where
it fits in the product line without confusing the public or degrading the higher end models.

I firmly believe that first and foremost, any product line must be arranged in
order of PRICE so the new perspective customer can have a reference point
from which to start learning about the various models and their respective
attributes. I think it a bit elitist and phony to pretend that that does not
"matter" somehow. I feel the same about frame weights. PUBLISH THEM!
no more excuses.

There, thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

VF


*Possible Thread Drift

[Charles M]

I think the thread drift is still in assuming Serotta have fallen into the bigger must be better trap that this thread has drifted in to...

There's growing for growths sake and then there is expanding to give more people access to a premium product and developing the product line to use the next viable generation of materials. Both also sell more bikes of course but developing things to fit a demand is very different than setting a dollar goal and then trying to fill the space between where you are and where you want to be.


Economic climate casts a different light on things, but I can tell you that the language and attitude of a few brands that have plaid the "we can be big" game are a lot different than the attitude and language at Serotta...

[echelon_john]

high quality production frames designed in the US and built offshore?

sounds like rivendell.

or, further downmarket, surly.

it can definitely be done, and good serottas could be created that would please customers/riders for a whole lot less $.

but agree with the post above that this would be a 180 degree direction change from all the branding they've done around custom, premium, etc.

[rugbysecondrow]

I think the thread drift is still in assuming Serotta have fallen into the bigger must be better trap that this thread has drifted in to...

There's growing for growths sake and then there is expanding to give more people access to a premium product and developing the product line to use the next viable generation of materials. Both also sell more bikes of course but developing things to fit a demand is very different than setting a dollar goal and then trying to fill the space between where you are and where you want to be.


Economic climate casts a different light on things, but I can tell you that the language and attitude of a few brands that have plaid the "we can be big" game are a lot different than the attitude and language at Serotta...

I agree with you. It is hard for lay people to comment on another business (especially a small business). It is akin to commenting on another marriage...just not enough info to make reasonable conclusions.

I think, from a consumer perspective, we can have opinions though. I don't know if they have gotten too big, but it does seem they have lost focus a little. A simple look at their website gives that impression.

Put it like this, as a consumer looking for a custom steel bike, would Serotta make the cut anymore? Would looking at the website help that person make that decision? I think the answer "no" now more often than it might have been in the past. Tough competition, but it also seems some of that business is not being fought for.

Same question regarding Carbon? Would a consumer view a Serotta as legit verses a Parlee, Calfee, Crumpton etc? I don't have an answer.

[victoryfactory]

Pez, Rugby,J ohn

All great points.
Serotta is in a unique position.

They have the boutique thing.
They have the made in USA custom thing.

But they are a bigger company than most others in that catagory
who are even 1 or 2 person shops.

So they have to generate much more sales and be able to produce many
more bikes than those others.

They are sort of stuck in between two worlds. How can they go back to
1 frame per week Like Sachs or Ellis or Bedford etc.?,
How can they go big time like Trek or Specialized ?

VF

[jeffg]

Hey, where are my E-O shorts? I bought my Legend already ...

[Charles M]

Pez, Rugby,J ohn

All great points.
Serotta is in a unique position.

They have the boutique thing.
They have the made in USA custom thing.

But they are a bigger company than most others in that catagory
who are even 1 or 2 person shops.

So they have to generate much more sales and be able to produce many
more bikes than those others.

They are sort of stuck in between two worlds. How can they go back to
1 frame per week Like Sachs or Ellis or Bedford etc.?,
How can they go big time like Trek or Specialized ?

VF


Why does it have to be one(Sachs or) or the other(trek et...) when there is a substantial amount of room in between?


I think there's a dif between "stuck" and positioned in the market.


Ferrari, Bentley and Rolls Royce (or Even Porsche etc, as lower volume but upper scale) have all had good times and work to do. But they didn't have to either be Morgan Auto or GM to create fantastic brands touching multiple products.


There are lots of good examples of companies that simply don't have Napoleon complex or turtle syndrome. (or my problem of being a "napoturtle")

[happycampyer]

I agree with you. It is hard for lay people to comment on another business (especially a small business). It is akin to commenting on another marriage...just not enough info to make reasonable conclusions.

I think, from a consumer perspective, we can have opinions though. I don't know if they have gotten too big, but it does seem they have lost focus a little. A simple look at their website gives that impression.

Put it like this, as a consumer looking for a custom steel bike, would Serotta make the cut anymore? Would looking at the website help that person make that decision? I think the answer "no" now more often than it might have been in the past. Tough competition, but it also seems some of that business is not being fought for.

Same question regarding Carbon? Would a consumer view a Serotta as legit verses a Parlee, Calfee, Crumpton etc? I don't have an answer.Bear in mind that Serotta's distribution channel is through dealers, and not direct.

Regarding custom steel, part of the question imo is how many LBSs are able or willing to sell a custom steel bike (vs. say, a Specialized that is sitting built on the shop floor)? In the dealer market, IF is probably Serotta's biggest competitor. In the overall market, a lot of the competition comes from one-man shops (several of whom used to work at Serotta). Of all the materials Serotta works in (steel, ti, carbon, integrated), I think the market for steel is one of the toughest given that a large part of that market happens away from the LBS. That said, the Cd'A is a great bike, and you don't have to wait months or years to get one.

Regarding titanium, Serotta has always been and still is one of the top choices. In the ti market, there are a number of dealer-distributed brands (Moots, Seven, IF, Lynskey, etc.) and fewer one-man shops (TK, Strong, Eriksen, etc.). I personally happen to be a big Moots fan, but I have ridden Legends and they are exceptional bikes.

In the integrated (carbon/ti) category, the choices are more limited (Ottrott, IF XS, Seven Elium, others?). Some people argue that this category is an anachronistic half-step before companies figured out custom carbon, but if you have ever ridden one of these bikes you would realize that they have a legitimate place (in fact, the Ottrott is still one of Ben S's favorite bikes and the XS is still the crown jewel of IF's line-up).

In the custom carbon category, again, the dealer-distributed choices are limited. The Achilles heel of the MeiVici is its price, although the price of everything else has crept up so much that it isn't as stratospherically priced as it used to be. I bought a used MeiVici, and I have to say that it is the best-riding carbon bike that I own, have owned or ridden (and friends of mine who have ridden it agree). If I were in the market for a new carbon bike I would strongly consider the HSG, which I think is extremely competitively priced vs. the big brands as well as Parlee, etc.

In each category, Serotta's offerings are by all means "legit." Part of the problem with most boutique brands (and certainly the one-man shops) is that a prospective purchaser has limited ability to test ride a bike to judge for him/herself. Serotta used to require dealers to have demo bikes, but I'm not sure that they do that anymore (in this environment, I'm not sure how many dealers are willing to tie up that much capital on demo bikes).

[rugbysecondrow]

Thanks for the response. I understand what you are saying, but I also think that you highlighted a potential flaw in how these bikes are sold now. Is the business model antiquated with respect to the internet age?

I am also not arguing anything about quality of product at all, I think Serotta only has peers and very few of these at best. What I am discussing is consumer confusion, direction, purpose. When somebody says Lynskey, what do you think? Litespeed? Waterford? IF? Moots? Parlee? Calfee? Serotta? IMO, all the other companies have strong image association, stronger than Serotta. I can't say whether this has hurt them, nor whether they are more or less profitable with their varied product line they have. From a consumer perspective though, I can offer that it seems to lack some focus.

I really do think the Legends, Colorados are fantastic bikes and should be marketed intensly.

Bear in mind that Serotta's distribution channel is through dealers, and not direct.

Regarding custom steel, part of the question imo is how many LBSs are able or willing to sell a custom steel bike (vs. say, a Specialized that is sitting built on the shop floor)? In the dealer market, IF is probably Serotta's biggest competitor. In the overall market, a lot of the competition comes from one-man shops (several of whom used to work at Serotta). Of all the materials Serotta works in (steel, ti, carbon, integrated), I think the market for steel is one of the toughest given that a large part of that market happens away from the LBS. That said, the Cd'A is a great bike, and you don't have to wait months or years to get one.

Regarding titanium, Serotta has always been and still is one of the top choices. In the ti market, there are a number of dealer-distributed brands (Moots, Seven, IF, Lynskey, etc.) and fewer one-man shops (TK, Strong, Eriksen, etc.). I personally happen to be a big Moots fan, but I have ridden Legends and they are exceptional bikes.

In the integrated (carbon/ti) category, the choices are more limited (Ottrott, IF XS, Seven Elium, others?). Some people argue that this category is an anachronistic half-step before companies figured out custom carbon, but if you have ever ridden one of these bikes you would realize that they have a legitimate place (in fact, the Ottrott is still one of Ben S's favorite bikes and the XS is still the crown jewel of IF's line-up).

In the custom carbon category, again, the dealer-distributed choices are limited. The Achilles heel of the MeiVici is its price, although the price of everything else has crept up so much that it isn't as stratospherically priced as it used to be. I bought a used MeiVici, and I have to say that it is the best-riding carbon bike that I own, have owned or ridden (and friends of mine who have ridden it agree). If I were in the market for a new carbon bike I would strongly consider the HSG, which I think is extremely competitively priced vs. the big brands as well as Parlee, etc.

In each category, Serotta's offerings are by all means "legit." Part of the problem with most boutique brands (and certainly the one-man shops) is that a prospective purchaser has limited ability to test ride a bike to judge for him/herself. Serotta used to require dealers to have demo bikes, but I'm not sure that they do that anymore (in this environment, I'm not sure how many dealers are willing to tie up that much capital on demo bikes).

[happycampyer]

Thanks for the response. I understand what you are saying, but I also think that you highlighted a potential flaw in how these bikes are sold now. Is the business model antiquated with respect to the internet age?

I am also not arguing anything about quality of product at all, I think Serotta only has peers and very few of these at best. What I am discussing is consumer confusion, direction, purpose. When somebody says Lynskey, what do you think? Litespeed? Waterford? IF? Moots? Parlee? Calfee? Serotta? IMO, all the other companies have strong image association, stronger than Serotta. I can't say whether this has hurt them, nor whether they are more or less profitable with their varied product line they have. From a consumer perspective though, I can offer that it seems to lack some focus.

I really do think the Legends, Colorados are fantastic bikes and should be marketed intensly.As antiquated as the dealer model may be, I think that it still dwarfs the builder-direct market, and is still far more scalable (if that's the business one wants to be in).

I think of it this way: there are very few boutique companies that work in multiple materials (steel, ti, carbon, etc.), and for the most part those companies all sell through the dealer channel (Serotta, Seven, IF, etc.). There are other boutique companies that specialize in a single material and also sell through the dealer channel (Parlee, Calfee, Moots, etc.). All of these companies probably sell 500 - 1,000+ frames a year, and are set up for that kind of production.

Then there are the micro builders, the one-man shops, etc. that sell direct.

So the multi-material builders are competing on several fronts: against the big companies (Trek, Specialized, Cervelo, Look, Pinarello, etc.); against each other; against the single-material, dealer channel builders; and against the micro builders. That's a lot to focus on, not just for Serotta, but for Seven and IF as well. The internet is only a piece of it, albeit an important piece of it. One of the things that Serotta does that is unique is provide training to dealers through SICI. While the process has its critics, Serotta still has done more to bring the concept of proper bike fit and fitting tools to the masses than any other company, and a lot of other companies end up piggy-backing off of that effort.

When you say that the other companies have stronger image association, what do you base that on? For a variety of reasons, there are certain bike companies that get an inordinate amount of criticism on the internet—Trek, Cervelo and Serotta come to mind. At times, I think that this forum does as much damage as good to Serotta's image, but there is an ocean of water under that bridge. As a Serotta owner, I think that that is unfortunate.

Back to the original topic, I think that it is great that Serotta is partnering with other top-tier companies to pool marketing and other resources. From a internet presence perspective, I would love to read more from Serotta Mike (Lopez, carbon guru extraordinaire), perhaps a blog would be in order.

[1centaur]

Ferrari, Bentley and Rolls Royce (or Even Porsche etc, as lower volume but upper scale) have all had good times and work to do. But they didn't have to either be Morgan Auto or GM to create fantastic brands touching multiple products.

But, what does Serotta offer that its competitors don't? Look at those great brand names from Pez. Each one clearly evokes an image. Fast, sexy Italian. Performance at its most luxurious. Maximum luxury. The sports car gourmet's daily driver.

Go brand by brand through the major bike makers and I could answer the question about brand image. With Serotta, I can't. I BELIEVE the products are really well made by people who care, mostly from reading this forum and not by reading the press. But that's not enough in this market - a lot of brands can say the same. Why can more bike fans tell you Giant and Time make their own CF tubes but don't know that about Serotta? As I look material by material through Serotta's line-up I think every single one is probably equal to the best of the competition, but that reminds me of an old toothpaste commercial: "no brand is more effective at fighting cavities." Nor less, of course.

IF was mentioned as a major competitor of Serotta earlier in this thread. Funny, 7 years ago IF was an obscure niche brand and Seven was viewed as the main competitor. What did IF do? They continued to turn out a well loved product, and they got mind share in the trade press relentlessly. Profiling their operation made them the guys who sweat the details in humble surroundings. They feel like a special team in their press. Serotta could have done the exact same thing (and was featured in some press) but it was not repeated enough. Serotta got good ride reviews in the magazines, as did IF, so why did IF gain traction? A better sense of self promotion is part of it.

My bottom line is that Serotta can't be just a high quality bike maker, they have to offer something nobody else can. Specialized and Trek do that through the power of their network and Project One - it doesn't have to be the product, per se. European brands have cachet and history. Time is pushing the technology edge and I think is a great model for Serotta. Parlee has such a relentless personal pursuit of perfection he got the Asian transition exactly right - it shows in the product. Cannondale delivers features at a price and is really good at publicizing product roll outs - the best there is, IMO. Moots has the quaint unpretentious cycle nerds of the Rockies thing, Lynskey has the we pioneered Ti thing. Serotta? It HAS to be about the technology, the proprietary stuff married to the perfect execution, IMO. The company has to be comfortable puffing about why MeiVici SL is unmatched, it's not just Edge tubes glued together, it's American know-how at its peak, etc.

Fitting - it's a bit of an anchor. There are other fitting competitors out there. That focus should be maintained to hold share but it's a fading niche.

And, ideally, price point has to be addressed - I'd like to see "best bike, no higher price than the best peers" as the value proposition. That's a story that can be sold to the high end customer. Right now, it's the opposite in many cases, "higher price, not clearly better than the best of the peers." When MeiVici came out I BEGGED company people on this board to tell me what made it special, I had my mouth open and was pointing to the hook, and all I heard was...crickets. Serotta can be IF with better technology, better distribution and more finishing options if it wants to be. Or it can be Made in the USA Time - always leading edge technology at the top that trickles down, plus incredible ride quality, but it has to sell those bikes to people who frequent forums to brag, not "doctors and lawyers."

BTW, E-O Dilar is THE best bib short I have ever worn.

[Climb01742]

But, what does Serotta offer that its competitors don't? Look at those great brand names from Pez. Each one clearly evokes an image. Fast, sexy Italian. Performance at its most luxurious. Maximum luxury. The sports car gourmet's daily driver.

Go brand by brand through the major bike makers and I could answer the question about brand image. With Serotta, I can't. I BELIEVE the products are really well made by people who care, mostly from reading this forum and not by reading the press. But that's not enough in this market - a lot of brands can say the same. Why can more bike fans tell you Giant and Time make their own CF tubes but don't know that about Serotta? As I look material by material through Serotta's line-up I think every single one is probably equal to the best of the competition, but that reminds me of an old toothpaste commercial: "no brand is more effective at fighting cavities." Nor less, of course.

IF was mentioned as a major competitor of Serotta earlier in this thread. Funny, 7 years ago IF was an obscure niche brand and Seven was viewed as the main competitor. What did IF do? They continued to turn out a well loved product, and they got mind share in the trade press relentlessly. Profiling their operation made them the guys who sweat the details in humble surroundings. They feel like a special team in their press. Serotta could have done the exact same thing (and was featured in some press) but it was not repeated enough. Serotta got good ride reviews in the magazines, as did IF, so why did IF gain traction? A better sense of self promotion is part of it.

My bottom line is that Serotta can't be just a high quality bike maker, they have to offer something nobody else can. Specialized and Trek do that through the power of their network and Project One - it doesn't have to be the product, per se. European brands have cachet and history. Time is pushing the technology edge and I think is a great model for Serotta. Parlee has such a relentless personal pursuit of perfection he got the Asian transition exactly right - it shows in the product. Cannondale delivers features at a price and is really good at publicizing product roll outs - the best there is, IMO. Moots has the quaint unpretentious cycle nerds of the Rockies thing, Lynskey has the we pioneered Ti thing. Serotta? It HAS to be about the technology, the proprietary stuff married to the perfect execution, IMO. The company has to be comfortable puffing about why MeiVici SL is unmatched, it's not just Edge tubes glued together, it's American know-how at its peak, etc.

Fitting - it's a bit of an anchor. There are other fitting competitors out there. That focus should be maintained to hold share but it's a fading niche.

And, ideally, price point has to be addressed - I'd like to see "best bike, no higher price than the best peers" as the value proposition. That's a story that can be sold to the high end customer. Right now, it's the opposite in many cases, "higher price, not clearly better than the best of the peers." When MeiVici came out I BEGGED company people on this board to tell me what made it special, I had my mouth open and was pointing to the hook, and all I heard was...crickets. Serotta can be IF with better technology, better distribution and more finishing options if it wants to be. Or it can be Made in the USA Time - always leading edge technology at the top that trickles down, plus incredible ride quality, but it has to sell those bikes to people who frequent forums to brag, not "doctors and lawyers."

BTW, E-O Dilar is THE best bib short I have ever worn.

1centaur, do you think this sort of market(ing) discussion_ever_took place inside of serotta? or did they ever (would they ever) pay the people who do this for a living? my guess is, serotta has always gotten exactly the marketing smarts they paid for. it's my guess for why their new site is so disappointing. they got what they paid for. a long-time 7th ave vet once told me something so simple and true: buy cheap, get cheap.

[rugbysecondrow]

As antiquated as the dealer model may be, I think that it still dwarfs the builder-direct market, and is still far more scalable (if that's the business one wants to be in).

Then there are the micro builders, the one-man shops, etc. that sell direct.


When you say that the other companies have stronger image association, what do you base that on? For a variety of reasons, there are certain bike companies that get an inordinate amount of criticism on the internet—Trek, Cervelo and Serotta come to mind. At times, I think that this forum does as much damage as good to Serotta's image, but there is an ocean of water under that bridge. As a Serotta owner, I think that that is unfortunate.



I agree with your first point, but I think that accepting that this approach might be limiting is a step. Understand, I am thinking as a consumer and not as a Serotta exec or frame builder, just a consumer. Frankly, part of the fun of buying custom is the interaction with the builder, and customer miss out of that aspect when they purchase through Serotta. The internet has opened up so many options for consumers, why purchase from Serotta via a dealer when one could just go directly too the builder? Is it worth paying more for a steel Serotta that forces me to work through a third party dealer rather than paying equal or less and working with the builder directly? Only the consumer can answer that, but Serotta has to tap into that and address it.

My opinion about image association is just that, my opinion. I have a Serotta and I really enjoy it, a great Concours. I can also tell you though that I have a custom Taylor and a custom Bedford incoming and I opted against getting a custom Serotta. The price was too high and I didn't see it as a good value for me.

Regarding Serotta's image, that is theirs to own and control. Let me ask you, as a business owner, would you want cheerleaders thriving in an echo chamber or would you want people to give honest input?

[rounder]

If serotta is serous about competing in today's market, then someone from serotta should seriously consider contacting 1centaur. He offers free advice daily on lots of things: politics, marketing, bikes. His positions are more clearly stated and argued than anyone else's here.

I believe that serotta makes great bikes, and has a great line up, but what difference does it make if most folks trying to decide on a new bike are considering a trek because lance rode one or it looks good in pictures, or those who have ridden forever believe anything that is new and cool is already offered in a specialized. I look at the site and see that you can get a bike in carbon, ti, steel, some combination...whatever combination you like. Not only that, but there is a page where you can select and visualize all of the color combinations. People say that the site suffers when compared to others. I clicked around to other bike sites, i thought the serotta page looked fine in comparison. Someone from serotta needs to get the message out there.

Anyway. fwiw.

But, what does Serotta offer that its competitors don't? Look at those great brand names from Pez. Each one clearly evokes an image. Fast, sexy Italian. Performance at its most luxurious. Maximum luxury. The sports car gourmet's daily driver.

Go brand by brand through the major bike makers and I could answer the question about brand image. With Serotta, I can't. I BELIEVE the products are really well made by people who care, mostly from reading this forum and not by reading the press. But that's not enough in this market - a lot of brands can say the same. Why can more bike fans tell you Giant and Time make their own CF tubes but don't know that about Serotta? As I look material by material through Serotta's line-up I think every single one is probably equal to the best of the competition, but that reminds me of an old toothpaste commercial: "no brand is more effective at fighting cavities." Nor less, of course.

IF was mentioned as a major competitor of Serotta earlier in this thread. Funny, 7 years ago IF was an obscure niche brand and Seven was viewed as the main competitor. What did IF do? They continued to turn out a well loved product, and they got mind share in the trade press relentlessly. Profiling their operation made them the guys who sweat the details in humble surroundings. They feel like a special team in their press. Serotta could have done the exact same thing (and was featured in some press) but it was not repeated enough. Serotta got good ride reviews in the magazines, as did IF, so why did IF gain traction? A better sense of self promotion is part of it.

My bottom line is that Serotta can't be just a high quality bike maker, they have to offer something nobody else can. Specialized and Trek do that through the power of their network and Project One - it doesn't have to be the product, per se. European brands have cachet and history. Time is pushing the technology edge and I think is a great model for Serotta. Parlee has such a relentless personal pursuit of perfection he got the Asian transition exactly right - it shows in the product. Cannondale delivers features at a price and is really good at publicizing product roll outs - the best there is, IMO. Moots has the quaint unpretentious cycle nerds of the Rockies thing, Lynskey has the we pioneered Ti thing. Serotta? It HAS to be about the technology, the proprietary stuff married to the perfect execution, IMO. The company has to be comfortable puffing about why MeiVici SL is unmatched, it's not just Edge tubes glued together, it's American know-how at its peak, etc.

Fitting - it's a bit of an anchor. There are other fitting competitors out there. That focus should be maintained to hold share but it's a fading niche.

And, ideally, price point has to be addressed - I'd like to see "best bike, no higher price than the best peers" as the value proposition. That's a story that can be sold to the high end customer. Right now, it's the opposite in many cases, "higher price, not clearly better than the best of the peers." When MeiVici came out I BEGGED company people on this board to tell me what made it special, I had my mouth open and was pointing to the hook, and all I heard was...crickets. Serotta can be IF with better technology, better distribution and more finishing options if it wants to be. Or it can be Made in the USA Time - always leading edge technology at the top that trickles down, plus incredible ride quality, but it has to sell those bikes to people who frequent forums to brag, not "doctors and lawyers."

BTW, E-O Dilar is THE best bib short I have ever worn.

[tylercheung]

which is better, the etxe ondo stuff or the gore stuff? (perusing end of winter clearance sales atm....)

[pdmtong]

e-o is great stuff, but what is maddening is they are a slave to fashion and the design heirarcgy isn't clear.

Take PI for example. as you pay more, there is a clear correlation with increasingly sophistication and deployment of technical materials. with e-o it is less obvious if a more expensive piece is "technically" better, or is just priced higher for what ever reason.

further, the e-o designs change like the seasons, so that $350 hors jacket I bought 3 years ago doesnt exist today nor can I figure out it's 2010 counterpart. DOnt' get me wrong, they make good stuff, but I dont look like their rock god models and some of those patterns probably look best at 25mph....

[Ahneida Ride]

Design sketches for the Steinway Model S were drawn by Henry L. Ziegler sometime before World War I and later finished by Paul Bilhuber during the Great Depression.

James Barron claims that the Steinway Model S "saved Steinway" from financial ruin because "it had the voice of a larger grand, but did not take up as much room. Nor did it cost as much."

Since piano sales during this time had dropped dramatically (Barron claims by as much as 90 percent), a smaller, but still powerful grand was well suited to the piano orders coming into the Steinway factory at the time.

During the Great Depression, many piano companies would close due to lack of sales, but Steinway was able to hold on with the help of the Steinway S and other smaller models including uprights.

[1centaur]

To climb: Yes, I think those thoughts have occurred at Serotta, but I don't know in what form (somebody's head? serious group discussions? debates with consultants?). I always feel sort of guilty participating in these once a year marketing strategy discussions on the forum because I bet there are real answers to many of our points but Serotta can't give them without getting involved in a debate that can't be had in public. So I end up just hoping that an idea or two makes sense to them and that an outside reader walks away thinking no less (and maybe more) of Serotta's products than they did the day before.

To rounder: Shhh, don't let them know about the daily political discussions happening in the password-protected, invite-only, socio-political sub-forum accessed through a hidden link for forumites deemed capable of non-vicious debates. They might demand to participate.

[DfCas]

Design sketches for the Steinway Model S were drawn by Henry L. Ziegler sometime before World War I and later finished by Paul Bilhuber during the Great Depression.

James Barron claims that the Steinway Model S "saved Steinway" from financial ruin because "it had the voice of a larger grand, but did not take up as much room. Nor did it cost as much."

Since piano sales during this time had dropped dramatically (Barron claims by as much as 90 percent), a smaller, but still powerful grand was well suited to the piano orders coming into the Steinway factory at the time.

During the Great Depression, many piano companies would close due to lack of sales, but Steinway was able to hold on with the help of the Steinway S and other smaller models including uprights.




I've never tuned a Steinway S that was any good.

[happycampyer]

To climb: Yes, I think those thoughts have occurred at Serotta, but I don't know in what form (somebody's head? serious group discussions? debates with consultants?). I always feel sort of guilty participating in these once a year marketing strategy discussions on the forum because I bet there are real answers to many of our points but Serotta can't give them without getting involved in a debate that can't be had in public. So I end up just hoping that an idea or two makes sense to them and that an outside reader walks away thinking no less (and maybe more) of Serotta's products than they did the day before.

....It does seem like this conversation has been had several times before, and I believe that you raised many of the same points when the previous marketing team was introduced. We'll see if this new team is more effective at defining and communicating the value proposition.

[djg]

If serotta is serous about competing in today's market, then someone from serotta should seriously consider contacting 1centaur. He offers free advice daily on lots of things: politics, marketing, bikes. His positions are more clearly stated and argued than anyone else's here.
.

None of this is meant as a criticism of anything in particular he has said, but . . .

He says one gets what one pays for. His advice is free. If we skip a few lines we get to Chico's famous question: Why a duck?

My friend Barry used to have a shtick about Time magazine. You know, Time is really terrific. It comes out every week, they cover everything under the sun, and they do a really terrific job from cover to cover. It's a funny thing, though. Once in a blue moon they cover a subject I really happen to know, and when they do that, inevitably they screw it up. But everything else in there is really terrific.

[dekindy]

When is Serotta going to start offering Etxe Ondo? Are they going to have a special introductory promotion for Serotta Owners' Club members and possibly forum participants?