View Full Version : Custom Bike Fitting Question
alembical
03-23-2005, 01:43 PM
When purchasing a new custom bike, I have been under the impression that the fitter/builder/etc.. likes to see you on your current bike. Is this normally correct?
The issue that I have, is that I am afraid that I don't have the ideal set-up on my bikes, but rather I have just gotten accustomed to that fit. If I was to purchase a new bike now (for delivery in 2007 the way Richie and Sacha are looking) I would also be concerned that the positioning I am in now would not be what I would be in then. I am finding myself to be stronger in the core and am actually finding that I like to be stretched out more and with more drop than I have been riding for the past year.
Are these valid concerns? How are the dealt with in real life? Just curious, but thanks in advance for any comments.
Alembical
e-RICHIE
03-23-2005, 01:59 PM
when i have an appointment here, i clean thoroughly,
and fill the candy dish and/or put out imported cookies.
Smiley
03-23-2005, 02:00 PM
It is a MUST for me to see you on your current rig . Body memory is what you have developed over time , sometimes you can de-program BAD fit position and sometimes what we deem is a bad fit position is developed based on body memory that you can't change . Sasha White knows this, that's why he allows you a $ 125 credit towards a fit against the price of his frameset . I have done maybe 4-5 fits for Vanilla now where I have been Sasha Whites eyes and ears on fit . Remarkably all the fits I have done using the Serotta methodology has translated well with Sasha and his clients . So go to a Serotta fitter and get fit , have these fit details sent to Sasha White or even Richie Sachs as this is better then relying on your own numbers. I think the last time I had a Vanilla client , Sasha White's lead times were 8 months out . Best of luck on your choice , but do get an OBSERVED fit .
Oh yes , get sized about 2-3 months before they start to build your frame , what's the rush with these guys anyway .
christian
03-23-2005, 02:09 PM
Alembical,
This is a great question!
Ivy's current bikes are a 2002 Bianchi Eros Donna and a 1983 Trek 620. Neither is perfect for her.
The Bianchi has a seat tube that is too steep and doesn't allow her to get back as far as she would like so she is nearly 2cm in front of KOPS, and feels like she has too much weight on the front wheel. She loathes the way the bike handles. (I think with too much weight on the front wheel and a 7cm stem, that's probably no surprise...)
The Trek is much better from a setback position, but the reach is too long, instead. We're trying to accomodate that with a shorter stem and some new bars (Thanks, Keith A!) but it'll never be ideal.
I think Ivy is planning on bringing one bike to Sacha and having us take lots of digital pics of Ivy on the other one. But basically, I think it will be Ivy and Sacha sorting it out based on the Trek, since that seems the better fit.
But it's a pickle isn't it? Trying to build a bike for perfect fit when nothing else really fits. OTOH, in my mind, that's the only time you can really justify a custom.
Here's another question - has anyone ever gone to two different fitters? How close to each other did they get in terms of seat height, setback, and reach?
- Christian
dave thompson
03-23-2005, 02:15 PM
I went to three different fitters, one 360 miles distant because of his national reputation, one my fave LBS (which was a freebie) and the last a 'certified' fitter. The first two mentioned agreed almost to the gnats eyelash, the last mentioned was off by a large magnitude.
e-RICHIE
03-23-2005, 02:21 PM
(snipped):
"But it's a pickle isn't it? Trying to build a bike for perfect fit when nothing else really fits."
why? if nothing else fits, move the saddle up or down and
back and forth until it does. after that, move the h'bar ***-
embly similarly so that it fits perfectly.
these are your contact points; once you've adjusted your
existing bicycle to yield them, you should be fine.
edit: can you believe that you can't type "assembly"
and have the word span two lines???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
uhhhh.
christian
03-23-2005, 02:30 PM
why? if nothing else fits, move the saddle up or down and
back and forth until it does. after that, move the h'bar ***-
embly similarly so that it fits perfectly.
Richard,
I assume you mean on a size cycle?
On a road bike for a small woman, I think that can be tough. On the Bianchi, for instance, she can get the SH right, but not the setback, and on the Trek, she can get those two, but not quite the reach.
I think the ultimate problem is the 622mm (front) wheel(s), but I'll be interested to see what Sacha thinks.
- Christian
alembical
03-23-2005, 02:32 PM
I guess the real issue that I have is that I am not real sure if any of my bikes fit me ideally. They all feel good, but I have always been able to get on a bike and feel okay. The cannondale that I picked up is longer with more drop than my Serotta and it just fits differently, not worse or better. I guess I should probably pony up the money for a proper fitting. At some point I am going to get a Vanilla or a Sachs, but the problem I am having is realizing that if I want it in the next 2 years, that I need to pull that trigger now.
Alembical
Thanks for all the responses.
e-RICHIE
03-23-2005, 02:33 PM
no - i mean on your own bike.
you need not love how the bicycle works
or steers or climbs, but you can get the
contact points dialed in.
coylifut
03-23-2005, 02:48 PM
(snipped):
why? if nothing else fits, move the saddle up or down and
back and forth until it does. after that, move the h'bar ***-
embly similarly so that it fits perfectly.
How much wiggle room is there. Being that there is no magic program that churns out the perfect fit every time how close does it have to be. Let's say that a guy should be riding a 57 square bike, but has a 56. Assuming the same ST angle, If he moves his saddle up by 1 cm and stem out by 1 cm on the 56, does it really make a difference?
There's no reason that a rider should have to live with a KOP that's 2cm too far forward. There are seatposts with enough setback to compensate for even a 75 degree STA.
http://www.redroseimports.com/rri_selcof_sp7.html
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=45&pid=142
http://www.eastonbike.com/COMPONENTS/post.ec70.html
The problem that using one of these seatposts will create is the need for a shorter stem. If you're already using a 7cm, it might be tough to find a 5cm.
If you're not already using a short-reach handlebar like the Salsa Poco, that will take care of at least 1cm of the reach reduction.
e-RICHIE
03-23-2005, 02:56 PM
everything makes a difference, but the question is about "fit",
not about whether you can stomach your bicycle once you've
assimilated the contact points; in other words, the fit measure-
ments are the contact points, the frame geometry encourages
fine riding characteristics while allowing the contact points
to hit their marks without unusually shaped components.
think of your bicycle as a picture; the ones that fit poorly
are not very attractive...
christian
03-23-2005, 02:58 PM
Dave, What's the setback on the FSA SL-220? [Edit: Never mind -- 35mm] The Easton is only 25mm, which is the same as a Salsa Shaft (what she's got now). She had a Poco, but prefers a Cinelli 66-38. She didn't like the shape of the Poco.
Richie, thanks for the clarification. We'll play with Ivy's fit some.
And Ben, sorry for the hijack.
- Christian
alembical
03-23-2005, 03:05 PM
No hijack at all, this thread was on custom fitting and I think it is interesting the degree to which non-custom (or poorly custom) bikes can be adapted to work properly versus the need for custom. I currently do not have a custom bike as even my Serotta was not made for me so I am always playing around adjusting things, but to me they just feel different. I have not found that one position that feels just better, but I guess a proper fitting could be helpful for that.
How many fitters use some kind of Powertap / computrainer type thing to judge power output? Many? All? None? That is what would interest me. My body seems to adapt pretty well after enough time spent training, but I would like to find that optimum position for me.
Alembical
e-RICHIE
03-23-2005, 03:08 PM
"...but prefers a Cinelli 66-38."
is this a misprint?
christian
03-23-2005, 03:14 PM
is this a misprint?
No. She likes the flat ramp. She didn't like the steep ramp on the Poco. Why, you think 66-38 is a bad choice?
- Christian
e-RICHIE
03-23-2005, 03:18 PM
66's are the deepest drops ever made, and typically for use
on super-sized sized frames. to have them on a small frame,
and in a 38cm width is odd to me - as a guy who's around
this stuff routinely. a more rational choice would be the 64's
or even the 63's...
I think you've got bad info about the setback. The Salsa website doesn't have a decent picture of the post, but it looks to me like the front of the clamp is approximately at the center of the post.
http://www.salsacycles.com/comps_seatposts.html
The problem with the term setback, is that there is no standard on how it's measured. A post like the Easton looks to have a lot more setback than the Salsa. The Easton is obviously measured from the center of the post to the front of the clamp, not the center. That makes a huge difference.
Traditional posts like a Campy or DuraAce are measured to the center of the clamp and the "setback" is listed in the 20-25mm range, but the front of the clamp (which actually limits the setback) is approximately in line with the centerline of the post. A post like the Easton Ec-70 has a lot more setback than that.
The FSA K-force that I have has the front of the clamp 1.5cm behind the centerline of the post, which is about 1.5cm more than most traditional posts.
christian
03-23-2005, 03:24 PM
I agree, sort of. The drop is super deep, enough to basically be unusable for Ivy. But there are very few bars in 38cm width that have a nice flat ramp.
For instance, Nitto 176 and 177 don't come narrower than 41cm, and 185 (pretty steep ramp) and 115 (25.4 clamp) no narrower than 40cm, Deda 215 no narrower than 40cm.
We just got some Nitto/Specializeds in 39 that we're going to try, also.
I can't find Cinelli 64-38s anywhere. If you know of a source, Ivy would definitely like to try a set.
The ideal bar would have a flat ramp, 38cm width, <85mm reach, and <135mm drop, silver and non-ergo, in that order of priority. Alas, I don't think a bar with all these characteristics exists.
Cheers,
- Christian
christian
03-23-2005, 03:29 PM
The FSA K-force that I have has the front of the clamp 1.5cm behind the centerline of the post, which is about 1.5cm more than most traditional posts.
Interesting. I'll definitely have a look at that.
- Christian
e-RICHIE
03-23-2005, 03:33 PM
3T tdf bend in an ergopower due or in a
competizione bend is what you want. or
a cinelli 64. or an oval concepts...
Ramp down can often be eliminated or at least greatly reduced by rotating the bars up a bit. I solved the ramp down problem, increased the drop and created a very comfortable angle with the Poco bar by rotating it.
http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/421571459/0.jpg
Someone with a reach problem should not be looking for an 85mm reach, when shorter ones are available. It looks to me like the new Easton Equipe Pro might meet your needs. Since the bend is round, rotating it a bit to eliminate the ramp down shouldn't hurt a thing. Also critical is the placement of the shift lever on the bars. I see a lot of folks placing the brake hood too low on the bend, which makes the reach problem worse.
http://www.eastonbike.com/COMPONENTS/bar.road.ec90-equipe.html
dirtdigger88
03-23-2005, 03:49 PM
Dave- to keep costs down easton also offers the EA70 with the short reach- short drop and pro bend- those are aluminum not carbon- I think the 70s are like $70 or so
Jason
christian
03-23-2005, 03:55 PM
Thanks, but all Easton bars are at least 40cm c-c.
dave thompson
03-23-2005, 04:20 PM
Bontrager makes a bar called the Flat top that is pretty much straight across all the way to the controls when the bar is in its 'normal' position, not rotated. The drop is to your spec, the reach is listed as 98 and they do come in a 38.
You can see it on my Peg here: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=6956
shinomaster
03-23-2005, 05:39 PM
Hey Alembical..If you get me a case of Beer I'll fit you to you Cannondale.. :banana: :banana: :p
dgauthier
03-23-2005, 05:58 PM
(. . .) I am afraid that I don't have the ideal set-up on my bikes, but rather I have just gotten accustomed to that fit. (. . .) I would also be concerned that the positioning I am in now would not be what I would be in then.
Alembical
(. . .) do get an OBSERVED fit .
Oh yes , get sized about 2-3 months before they start to build your frame
Alembical, in case you didn't notice, I think Smiley answered your question quite well, just before your thread was flown to Cuba . . . Baaaabaaaalooooo!
ericmurphy
03-23-2005, 06:15 PM
When I got fitted for my bike, the fitter wanted to see me on the bike I already had. But he didn't try to build my new bike to match the fit of the old one; in fact, he made a lot of corrections (saddle height, brake lever position, stem height) on my old bike to make it match (given the limited adjustability on a pre-existing frame) the idealized new bike.
So I got two benefits: 1) the fitter saw my riding position and how it worked with the bike I had, and what would need to change; and 2) my existing bike fit me better afterwards!
Dr. Doofus
03-23-2005, 06:44 PM
during the fallout from your doof's serotta fit experience, doof stumbled on -- possibly -- an odd solution:
move crap around until it feels good
seriously, after trying the Steve Hogg test (on a trainer, or better on the road, put it in a huge gear and grind away at 70-80rpm...if you can take your hands off the drops and not 1) fall forward and 2) arch your back, your pelvis is stable and this is pretty much where the fore-aft needs to be), and almost getting "the spot" dialed in, doof got pissed off at his seat and bumped it back an unidentified amount during a ride...and voila, found "the spot." Can take the hands off the drops and just balance while grinding. back straight and flat. butt, hamstrings, quads all contributing....
funny thing is, the saddle is now in the "E-Ritchie" spot...depressed bit in line with the ST....
funnier thing is, its right where the doof was in 1998 before "fitters" starting mucking with his position because he was "too far behind the spindle."
blah.
find a fitter who sets you up where everything feels good and where you're not going to be in some jackassed position on the bike, so the thing handles....
anyway....
during the fallout from your doof's serotta fit experience, doof stumbled on -- possibly -- an odd solution:
move crap around until it feels good
seriously, after trying the Steve Hogg test (on a trainer, or better on the road, put it in a huge gear and grind away at 70-80rpm...if you can take your hands off the drops and not 1) fall forward and 2) arch your back, your pelvis is stable and this is pretty much where the fore-aft needs to be), and almost getting "the spot" dialed in, doof got pissed off at his seat and bumped it back an unidentified amount during a ride...and voila, found "the spot." Can take the hands off the drops and just balance while grinding. back straight and flat. butt, hamstrings, quads all contributing....
funny thing is, the saddle is now in the "E-Ritchie" spot...depressed bit in line with the ST....
funnier thing is, its right where the doof was in 1998 before "fitters" starting mucking with his position because he was "too far behind the spindle."
blah.
find a fitter who sets you up where everything feels good and where you're not going to be in some jackassed position on the bike, so the thing handles....
anyway....
so the jerk was right eh? yeah the jerk is rubbing it in....balance is everything.
jerk
Sacha White
03-24-2005, 12:20 AM
When purchasing a new custom bike, I have been under the impression that the fitter/builder/etc.. likes to see you on your current bike. Is this normally correct?
The issue that I have, is that I am afraid that I don't have the ideal set-up on my bikes, but rather I have just gotten accustomed to that fit. If I was to purchase a new bike now (for delivery in 2007 the way Richie and Sacha are looking) I would also be concerned that the positioning I am in now would not be what I would be in then. I am finding myself to be stronger in the core and am actually finding that I like to be stretched out more and with more drop than I have been riding for the past year.
Are these valid concerns? How are the dealt with in real life? Just curious, but thanks in advance for any comments.
Alembical
I use the customers current rig as a starting place. I simulate it on my fit bike, talk with them about their experience on their current setup and go from there.
I also don't fit people for their new bike until I am ready to build it. This way they are getting a bike that fits who they are now not a year ago when they put their order in. Plus the details stay fresh in my mind this way.
SMUGator
03-24-2005, 11:37 PM
I use the customers current rig as a starting place. I simulate it on my fit bike, talk with them about their experience on their current setup and go from there.
I also don't fit people for their new bike until I am ready to build it. This way they are getting a bike that fits who they are now not a year ago when they put their order in. Plus the details stay fresh in my mind this way.
Sacha was awesome when he fit me. I spent a good bit of time with him talking through the details, and I'm still going back to some of the original recommendations that he made that didn't initially jive with what I thought I was looking for. Don't expect a lot of bling-bling pop and sizzle. He's a craftsman who works in a true shop. But there's a great coffee spot around the corner where you can go and have an Americana and talk about what this bike means to you. There is no showroom. He tells me that I am the first person that ever asked to ride one of his bikes before ordering. That's a strong statement for the quality of his work.
I spent a lot of time on his fit bike. But do all of us a favor and don't call him just for a fitting. Order the bike. You won't be disappointed with the experience.
I thought that Sacha was particularly astute at observing the angle at which my knees rubbed against my gut when I was on the drops. Hopefully he can correct for the gut with really spectacular looking lugs! :)
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