Cost of installation of a group bought online

[WickedWheels]

I'm just curious what you guys would expect to pay your LBS to install a group that was purchased online?

How about building a bike purchased online?

[Peter B]

Their hourly rate X the number of hours required to build.

[eddief]

most shops should be happy to have the service biz if they are not the ones with a 'tude about the net. i'd say $100-$150.

[MattTuck]

I'm sure they'd do it, but I think that is a bit like kicking them in the baby-maker to ask.

[thegunner]

should be free :) it's a fun thing to learn. bikes are simple.

[eddief]

to welcome your business, they are probably not smart enough to do a good job on your bike build.

[rugbysecondrow]

$150ish plus any misc parts needed.

[dsteady]

A few years ago I was quoted $200-250 in Seattle to build up a s/h cross frame with ebay-sourced parts.

[Louis]

I would expect about ~$150 during peak business months, maybe ~100 during off-peak. I think "free tune-up" after a month or two would be a nice perk.

[retrogrouchy]

Do you folks really mean that you would expect a real bike shop to professionally assemble a complete bike, from parts you bring them, for $100-150? I sure as heck wouldn't do it, even out of my basement!

If I were a real bike shop, I can easily imagine that my lawyer would forbid it! The mind boggles at the potential liability issues.

[dimsy]

not sure how they looked, but when i transferred entire bike from raleigh to merlin they charged me 125, when i had the nago built up they charged me 175.

thing is i'm fully capable of doing it myself, i just don't have a torque wrench, headset press and other items essential to putting together a bike from scratch.

plus the time, it's nice to drop it off and pick it up, plus the guy @ my lbs is great w/ troubleshooting.

[Louis]

If I were a real bike shop, I can easily imagine that my lawyer would forbid it! The mind boggles at the potential liability issues.

I'm not sure what this means. Are bike shops so unreliable that one can not expect them to safely assemble a bike? Except for stuff that requires real skill, like wheel building, I turn my own wrenches, but I don't see why an LBS could not to the job safely. They're better at it than I am, so if I can so it safely they sure as heck ought to be able to.

If they can't build-up a bike they shouldn't be allowed to do any maintenance.

[that guy]

I'm not sure where you live but if there is a bike co-op type organization there they will teach you anything you need to know and probably has all the tools you need.

[rdparadise]

My local shop quoted me $85 for the entire build up with my parts, frame and fork. Of course any parts would be additional.

Bob

[WickedWheels]

Do you folks really mean that you would expect a real bike shop to professionally assemble a complete bike, from parts you bring them, for $100-150? I sure as heck wouldn't do it, even out of my basement!

If I were a real bike shop, I can easily imagine that my lawyer would forbid it! The mind boggles at the potential liability issues.

I was wondering how long it would take for a voice of reason to pop up.

At my shop we charge $200-$250, based on how busy we are, who the customer is and what the bike is. Tri bikes with internal routed frames/aero-bars always take longer to set up and sometimes require "readjustments" if the aerobars need to get cut down further.

From the shop's point of view...
- We're so busy with our regular repairs that dedicating that much time to a "disloyal" customer can't be a priority. That 3+ hours it can take to build up a tri bike could also mean 5-6 regular tune-ups.
- In my experience people who look for "deals" and shop online are also the ones that have the most issues and complain the most. The cost of building their bike often needs to include the costs of chasing down their squeeks and creaks, explaining how things work, etc. A lot of these people require significant time other than the build of the bike and in a bike shop it's very difficult to charge for good advice, so some has to be built into the initial labor charge.
- There's always the liability to worry about, both in terms of potential injury from a repair and the fact that we ultimately take responsibility for other people's products when we service them. If a Cervelo snaps in two because the frame is defective we're still on the hook as far as lawyers are concerned.
- We always guarantee the work, which means a 30-day service after the initial build, after the cable housing has fully settled in.
- Most of the time some part or another was ordered incorrectly. Perhaps it was an incompatible BB or the wrong front derailleur... or a defect somewhere. Often it involves some level of headaches and chasing down correct parts. Sometimes it involves leaving the project unfinished and waiting for the customer to resolve their issues, which costs us time.

[jlwdm]

I know good shops who welcome service work where you bring your own parts.

had group replaced plus bars, stem, saddle for $95. Other quote at $wd0.

Jeff

[Louis]

I was wondering how long it would take for a voice of reason to pop up.

Note to self:

The next time WW posts a question don't bother to answer because apparently he doesn't really want to collect data, and he's likely to reply to answers he doesn't like with some sort of rant.

[Charles M]

I was wondering how long it would take for a voice of reason to pop up.

At my shop we charge $200-$250, based on how busy we are


I wasnt wondering how long it would take for a few folks to think it should be free ;) The sense of entitlement is sometimes overheated.


Good post. Liability is no small thing and at days end there are shops that will and shops that won't do this for you.

Their decision simply is what it is and it's total crap to think that a shop's thought on installing net gear has anything at all to do with the quality of work they provide.

They're making a business decision... That's pretty much it. And they're as free to make that call as you are to take your further business some place else.

[WickedWheels]

Note to self:

The next time WW posts a question don't bother to answer because apparently he doesn't really want to collect data, and he's likely to reply to answers he doesn't like with some sort of rant.

Actually, I was trying to figure out what mail order shoppers expect to pay so I can gauge just how high we are by comparison.

The "rant" was an explanation of what shops take into consideration.

I'm surprised you had time for your "note to self", though. Was the Performance website shut down for maintenance?

[gemship]

What liability? You bring your parts and bike to the shop, ask them to assemble it. They'll give a good visual inspection of all the stuff you brought in and if everything looks structurally sound and you all agree to a price that's it done deal. No biggie. As a shop you simply advise the customer heck maybe even have it in writing that the parts being from another source are not warrantied and if you want to be decent about it you may even offer a break in adjustment for free.

For the kind of money Wicked Wheels shop charges I personally would just do it myself. Bikes are simple make the investment in a few proprietary tools and your all set for life ;)

[Louis]

I'm surprised you had time for your "note to self", though. Was the Performance website shut down for maintenance?

Performance? What are you talking about? Are they a mail-order place?

I only get parts from e-bay and what I can scrounge from my LBS dumpster.

Apparently this is turning into what so many threads of this type become: "Support your LBS" vs. "Why bother going to an LBS, they have outrageous mark-ups and do crappy work."

I'm sure this time we'll resolve the issue and everyone will go home happy.

[gemship]

Do you folks really mean that you would expect a real bike shop to professionally assemble a complete bike, from parts you bring them, for $100-150? I sure as heck wouldn't do it, even out of my basement!

If I were a real bike shop, I can easily imagine that my lawyer would forbid it! The mind boggles at the potential liability issues.


Pfft... speak for yourself. I would love to build someone's bike in my own basement. Especially since I have my Park stand and Park tool kit and I'm unemployed and if someone wanted to give me $100 to $150 why not? It's good money for only a couple hours work if you can call it work. It ain't rocket science.

[Lifelover]

All of the shops I deal with would be happy to do the work and understand why I would buy my parts online.

They know I could also do the work myself if they didn't want it.

Ignore this:I'd expect to pay around $100 if I brought them a box full of clean parts and a clean frame. It aint rocket science. A experienced wrench could do the build in an hour.

If they are scared of the legal liability of working on a bike, than I don't want them touching mine.

I have changed my mind. In the past I have paid around $100 but that is not for a complete build. I typically mount most of the stuff my self. Brakes, stem, bars, RD, FD, saddle, pedals, etc. I than take it to the LBS to have them install the BB and have the cables installed and fine tuned. I purchase the cables from them.

This is what I would expect to pay around $100 for. I just did this on 2 bikes and any LBS would be crazy to do the complete build for less than $200. As other have mentioned, parts were wrong, missing and broke. Would not have gone well had I dropped of box of stuff off with them.

[Derailer]

I'm curious about the liability issues. I would assume that a shop will be liable for its own negligence (e.g., not tightening the handlebars) but not for defects in parts that the customer brought in (e.g., the crank snaps on a climb). Since the former should be a non-issue for a good shop and the latter isn't the shop's responsibility, what's the problem?

[gemship]

Apparently this is turning into what so many threads of this type become: "Support your LBS" vs. "Why bother going to an LBS, they have outrageous mark-ups and do crappy work."

I'm sure this time we'll resolve the issue and everyone will go home happy.


+1 In my experience if I buy the bike from them the set up fee never even exists as it's part of the sale. I just don't have the lbs do my work because it's so easy to do it myself. It became easy after dedicating hours to research on the net, obtaining my own tools and lots of scratching my head and analyzing. Hey sooner of later everybody needs to turn that know on their shifting cable or change a tire tube for me once I mastered that it was all over for the shop. No offense shop guys, but if it makes you feel better I am a machinist by trade and I split the cases on my old motocross bikes a few times years back, valve adjustments, changing fork seals. Bikes tend to become simple in a good way.

I may also add that torque wrenches are great but if you have the common sense... again it's all feel and experience when it comes to fasteners. You don't need to kill but you don't want em coming loose.

[WickedWheels]

I'm curious about the liability issues. I would assume that a shop will be liable for its own negligence (e.g., not tightening the handlebars) but not for defects in parts that the customer brought in (e.g., the crank snaps on a climb). Since the former should be a non-issue for a good shop and the latter isn't the shop's responsibility, what's the problem?

Imagine, for a minute a scenario where a brand new mail order bike (Cervelo, for argument's sake) is assembled in a shop that does not carry that brand. The rider hits a pot hole and the fork snaps off at the head tube. This is due to a manufacturing defect on the fork. Personally, over the past 15 years I've seen this type of a breakage a number of times. In this scenario the rider falls funny and breaks his neck. Or gets crushed by a bus.

So liability-wise anyone who's had anything to do with the bike is on the hook. The manufacturer, the mail order place and the bike shop. We all have liability insurance, but it only covers so much. If this scenario happened with a brand that the shop carried (Trek, for example) then the shop and Trek would be sharing expenses and liabilities. The shop would have access to Trek's legal team and potentially their insurance coverage. This would not be the case if the Cervelo broke.

In the case of assembly of a bike, a higher assembly fee on mail order serves as both a deterrent to the types of people that are tight with money and are more likely to be litigious, and a monetary benefit for taking the "liability gamble".

As you can see, the liability is not in regards to the shop's competence in assembling a bike. It is based on the shop's liability in case of failures based on circumstances that are outside of their control.

BTW, for no particular reason other than sales figures our liability insurance increased by over 30% this year.

[rugbysecondrow]

I was wondering how long it would take for a voice of reason to pop up.

At my shop we charge $200-$250, based on how busy we are, who the customer is and what the bike is. Tri bikes with internal routed frames/aero-bars always take longer to set up and sometimes require "readjustments" if the aerobars need to get cut down further.

From the shop's point of view...
- We're so busy with our regular repairs that dedicating that much time to an "disloyal" customer can't be a priority. That 3+ hours it can take to build up a tri bike could also mean 5-6 regular tune-ups.
- In my experience people who look for "deals" and shop online are also the ones that have the most issues and complain the most. The cost of building their bike often needs to include the costs of chasing down their squeeks and creaks, explaining how things work, etc. A lot of these people require significant time other than the build of the bike and in a bike shop it's very difficult to charge for good advice, so some has to be built into the initial labor charge.
- There's always the liability to worry about, both in terms of potential injury from a repair and the fact that we ultimately take responsibility for other people's products when we service them. If a Cervelo snaps in two because the frame is defective we're still on the hook as far as lawyers are concerned.
- We always guarantee the work, which means a 30-day service after the initial build, after the cable housing has fully settled in.
- Most of the time some part or another was ordered incorrectly. Perhaps it was an incompatible BB or the wrong front derailleur... or a defect somewhere. Often it involves some level of headaches and chasing down correct parts. Sometimes it involves leaving the project unfinished and waiting for the customer to resolve their issues, which costs us time.

I have no problem with your price, if the demand for your service is high enough to warrent it, that is great. If Tri bikes are harder, charge more for them...that is totally fair and reasonable and I don't think anybody would argue with you about that. People who do great work are hard to find.

I would caution against the labeling of "Loyal" vs. "Disloyal" customers. Many people buy parts from here, craigslist ebay and other online sources and pay a specific shop to do the work. If I do this, I always go to the same shop and in my mind, I am loyal to them to the extent that I don't go to the other shops. Very few people are 100% loyal to one company accross the board and that seems to be an unreasonable expectation. What is reasonable is doing the best work you can to A)get the customer to become a returning customer, B) keep your current ones coming through the door and C) trying to determine how to bring brand new ones in...this would seem to be the right mix.

Regarding shopping online, that has changed how we buy clothes, cars, shoes, ovens, couches...everything. To expect that somehow bikes and bike parts are immune from that is unrealistic. Also, why pay a LBS retail plus shipping plus wait a week to get the part in when I can go on to Ebay or another Retail site and have it next day cheaper and ready to go onto the bike?I would also say that I have gone to my LBS quite a few times for specific items and they have said , "we will have to order it." I understand they can't stock everything, but at what point do I start handling the ordering of parts myself and leave the skilled work to the experts?

Let people buy their parts, let your mechanics do their great work and if more costs are incurred due to chasing down a mispurchased BB or something else, they the customer is responsible for that charge.

[Ray]

Just one opinion, but I probably wouldn't buy a bunch of parts online and then ask my lbs to install them. I have a good relationship with a couple of local shops. When I got my first sort of custom frame (wasn't custom, but it wasn't something I could have bought through the shop), I had them build it up for me but I bought all of the parts from them. As I learned how to do most of my own work, I bought more and more stuff off of the internet and installed it myself. If I needed them to install something (I don't do headsets), I'd also buy it from them. Over the years, I've still bought a lot of little stuff from them that I didn't anticipate (cables and housing and chains and bar tape come to mind) and I buy shoes in person - buying shoes online just never worked for me. So they get that kind of business - not very big but high markup. I also occasionally take them stuff for service that I either can't do myself or just don't feel like it. Every now and then, I'll take them a bike in the winter for a full overhaul when I'm just too lazy to take it apart, clean everything, replace cables, etc, myself. I usually do this myself (and usually end up buying a few spare parts from them in the process) but sometimes I'm just lazy and their prices are reasonable.

Anyway, they understand that I do most of my own work and they're not gonna get huge business from me, but they've gotten enough little stuff over the years that they're happy to help me out for a fair price. And they've given me plenty of advice over the years too because we just get along well. But just as a matter of personal principal, if I was going to have them build up a bike for me, I'd buy everything I could from them, which would probably be everything except the frame and fork.

-Ray

[oldpotatoe]

I'm just curious what you guys would expect to pay your LBS to install a group that was purchased online?

How about building a bike purchased online?

If it includes prepping the frame, $200 is what I charge. Naked frame, parts inna box, wheels built(includes truing wheels as well).

As for a bike, depends on how 'built' it is and if the customer wants it taken apart to ensure the frame is prepped and making sure assembly was correct, as in lube, grease, and such. Most bikes I see outta a box are assembled really poorly, like the Colnago CX-1 I just worked on..really poor, from a BIG MO outfit. SuperRecord, DT hubs, Williams wheels...

AS for MO parts to a bike shop. Some shops will whine but ya gotta recognize the market and pricing. I'd rather have the part margin but will take the service $ rather than whine about the market and have it built somewhere else.

Interesting comments about 'loyal and disloyal' customers. If they come to you for work, doesn't that make them a 'loyal' customer? Seems the shop has a problem with MO. It is what it is. As for how busy a shop is, why not make appointments, allocate the time ahead of time, bikes stuff comes in at appointment day, you accomplish the job.

If the customer buys the stuff from us we discount the build $50. It takes about 3 hours to a pro build, start to finish, w/o interuptions, not building the wheels. If we are also building the wheels, about 4-4.5 hours. We use $60 per hour as a baseline labor rate. 3 hours, about $200...pretty easy.

I think any bike shop that prides itself in knowledge and service would welcome a customer having the faith in them to do something better than the 18 yr old slap together for their sometimes $lots$ steed they bought MO.

Personally I would rather build a pro bike than try to sell one and have to justify a point of view about this or that when the customer is armed with a handful of magazines and web reports on how good or bad some widget is or isn't. Bring it to me, I'll make it right, regardless of the design, group maker, wheel maker, tire maker, BB design, HS design, etc.....

[Ozz]

I had Elliott Bay Bikes (fairly well respected shop in Seattle) put together my Legend when I bought it used. I most most the gruppo online, but purchased the Phil Wood BB and Zero G brakes from them. They tried to find a Tiso RD without success, so I also bought my Campy RD from them.

All in I think I paid about $1000, and of that about $150 was assembly.

They never gave me grief about not buying anything from them...they actually seemed pretty cool about it. They even tossed in a few comments about what a nice bike is.

I believe bike shops are in business to work on bikes...(and to make money for the owner). A shop will install brake pads on a bike not purchased at their shop. It isn't much of a stretch to extend that to an entire assembly.

The OP needs to get over the attitiude that shops get to choose their customers. Customers choose shops and the shops are lucky to have them.

[Charles M]

You had me right up to "shops are lucky to have them"...


There are pain in the ass, not-worth-it customers just like there are crap shops. And they both tend to be the type that are positive it's the other's fault.

When good one's see good one's, it's a win. when either are bad, they don't get together again and it's better for all involved.


Liability is a bigger issue with assholes than reasonable people. You built the bike so you own the problem no matter what, and nobody here doesn't understand that there are less reasonable people that will think that way and blame a builder for the parts.



Part of what we're doing here is generalizing too much and looking for a reason to argue over a pretty simple question and scenario...

[Ray]

Part of what we're doing here is generalizing too much and looking for a reason to argue over a pretty simple question and scenario...
You ban political discussions and the bile has gotta surface SOMEWHERE! :cool:

Campy v Shimano, LBS v Mailorder, Republican v Democrat - its all the same stuff.

-Ray

[Ahneida Ride]

Recently I watched a build up on a pristine frame by a highly competent
mechanic.

In theory, things should go together easily. Reality is another.

If one introduces just one small "custom" aspect to the build ...
Well ...

There is theory and reality. The bike went together flawlessly,
but it was not without some brain power.

[jlwdm]

I took a couple of repair classes from a mechanic at a local bike shop. This shop has 10 mechanics working give or take. This guy talked about how many $ of repair work he did in a month and it was mind boggling - amazing what an expert in any profession can do.

Jeff

[charliedid]

I'm just curious what you guys would expect to pay your LBS to install a group that was purchased online?

How about building a bike purchased online?

Ask your LBS!

[93legendti]

My shop charged me ~$120 to build up my Kirk and Spectrum with grouppos I had laying around.

[Birddog]

In the case of assembly of a bike, a higher assembly fee on mail order serves as both a deterrent to the types of people that are tight with money and are more likely to be litigious, and a monetary benefit for taking the "liability gamble".
Now there's a sweeping generality. I'm a price conscious shopper in almost every area. I look for "bang for the buck" not necessarily lowest price, and by doing so it often gives me the flexibility to move up in quality or quantity. That does not make me litigious.
I think a shop offering good quality service on anybody's parts is a real plus for that shop. Around here lately, the conversation has been about 2nd rate service from 2 of the bigger shops. I feel for the shops, it's hard to find a good wrench and be able to pay them enough to keep them around, but quality service will keep a customer.

[pdxmech13]

$250.00 plus any additonal parts that need to be used that where not supplied by the customer.

N.

[zap]

Job one, get the customer in the shop. Charge what needs to be charged to cover costs and whatever profit the shop desires. Charging extra to install outside sourced parts is reasonable.

If cost of liabilty is a concern, then I would question the shops priorities and procedures. In reality, liability costs per customer should cost pennies.

Every business has to deal with pita customers. The best handle the problem professionally and a stronger business relationship may result.

Cost, depending on location & parts US$80-$350 plus extra bits.

[dekindy]

For what you are considering my LBS would quote a Performance Overhaul or Total Overhaul or a hybrid of these options depending on the frame material and whether you were installing to a bare frame or an existing complete bike. Cables and brake pads and any other materials if not itemized and included in the standard menu option are extra. This would give you an approximation of the cost for a basic road bike for the Indianapolis market. A tri bike or other bike that requires extra work would obviously be more expensive. The new Campy 11-speed requires some new, expensive tools so there may be an extra charge for that Groupo.

Performance Overhaul
Get the Most For Your Investment
All Components Removed, Cleaned, Inspected, Lubricated, and Reinstalled
Fresh Grease and Bearings Installed
Wheels Trued and Tensioned
All Components Precision Adjusted
$139.99 most bicycles

Total Overhaul
The Ultimate Service For “Thoroughbred” Machines
All Components Removed, Cleaned, Inspected, Lubricated, and Reinstalled
Fresh Grease and Bearings Installed
Wheels Trued and Tensioned Balanced
Frame and Fork Aligned, Rust Proofed and Hand Waxed
$184.99 most bicycles

[djg]

Imagine, for a minute a scenario where a brand new mail order bike (Cervelo, for argument's sake) is assembled in a shop that does not carry that brand. The rider hits a pot hole and the fork snaps off at the head tube. This is due to a manufacturing defect on the fork. Personally, over the past 15 years I've seen this type of a breakage a number of times. In this scenario the rider falls funny and breaks his neck. Or gets crushed by a bus.

So liability-wise anyone who's had anything to do with the bike is on the hook. The manufacturer, the mail order place and the bike shop. We all have liability insurance, but it only covers so much. If this scenario happened with a brand that the shop carried (Trek, for example) then the shop and Trek would be sharing expenses and liabilities. The shop would have access to Trek's legal team and potentially their insurance coverage. This would not be the case if the Cervelo broke.

In the case of assembly of a bike, a higher assembly fee on mail order serves as both a deterrent to the types of people that are tight with money and are more likely to be litigious, and a monetary benefit for taking the "liability gamble".

As you can see, the liability is not in regards to the shop's competence in assembling a bike. It is based on the shop's liability in case of failures based on circumstances that are outside of their control.

BTW, for no particular reason other than sales figures our liability insurance increased by over 30% this year.

Well, I guess this points to several questions. First, how thororughly does Trek really share liability with dealers and how thoroughly CAN they really share representation?

Second, carry this down the line to every part you sell and every bike you service. If you only service bikes you sell, and then only when the distributor and manufacturer indemnify you against liability for . . . what? Mfg defects claims? Negligence claims? Misrepresentation or failure to warn claims? Well, do you close down your service shop entirely? If somebody new to the area waks in with a Tarmac or a Bianchi or a Colnago purchased out of state do you refuse to do any service work because of liability concerns? What if somebody bought a bike from you, but bought a chain or tire while out of town? Certainly a blowout or a broken chain are more likely to cause accidents than a spontaneous frame failure. Do you service the bike or insist on replacing the chain or tire first?

I'm not suggesting that liability should be a non-issue. And certainly I'm not suggesting that you do special favors to those who have bought parts on-line. If you're running a businesss, you're running a business. You should charge fees that make good business sense. But I don't see that your liability profile improves dramatically by refusing to install mail order parts per se. If your attorney or insurer counseled you against this line of business, then they did, but I'd be surprised to hear it.

[caleb]

if more costs are incurred due to chasing down a mispurchased BB or something else, they the customer is responsible for that charge.

$150-200 for a bare frame, uncut fork, and all new parts.

If any of it doesn't fit, the shop uses new parts at full price and adds it to the bill.

Bring them an Italian bottom bracket for an English frame, or 26.0 bars for a 31.6 stem? Expect to find an upcharge on your bill for comparable new parts - no questions, no consult.

They won't dick around with the wrong parts, and they won't let you shelve the build for two weeks while you dredge eBay for the proper widget. You pay whatever it takes to get the build done the day it's scheduled.

Seems like a fair and reasonable policy. While this is our hobby, it's lots of people's livelihood and I think it's fine that they strive to run their shops in an efficient and profitable manner.

[dekindy]

Recently I watched a build up on a pristine frame by a highly competent
mechanic.

In theory, things should go together easily. Reality is another.

If one introduces just one small "custom" aspect to the build ...
Well ...

There is theory and reality. The bike went together flawlessly,
but it was not without some brain power.

You are right. This winter I happened into the service area while one of the very experienced mechanics was building a new bike. It appeared to be a new model. Another mechanic was helping him with a tricky part of the installation. There appeared to be great difficulty and frustration with something I as a non-mechanic would expect to be routine.

[David Kirk]

$250 if everything fits and is compatible. All bets are off if stuff doesn't fit and the internet customer bought the wrong/inappropriate stuff.

Dave

[eddief]

i want Dave to do an artisan build with stainless steel infused grease, lugged cable crimps and filleted bar tape wrapping technique. :)

why risk pissing off your LBS for not doing it their way and paying $150 when Dave has been straight forward about his pricing and his policy. he sets a good example for how to run a business and stay in business.

but best to check the fine print in his build contract to determine his level liability coverage. as i recall, his driveway has an 8% grade just before it meets the pavement.

[William]

Speaking of suing a bike shop....what's the statute of limitations on reckless endangerment?? I think I have a case here...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=24293&highlight=beaver


What is it about rodents, bikes, and me??? :crap:






William :)

[Jeff N.]

$75 plus parts. Buy the tools and do it yourself. Jeff N.

[fourflys]

Wow, it can be really surprising what some think other's time is worth...

Here's the thing, if I could/had time to do the work myself I'm pretty sure I would... One day, I will learn how to do a complete, professional build myself... I will say this that no matter how "skilled" you think you are, there is no substitute for years of experiance in a shop! There are always little things professionals know that the book will never tell you...

As far as builds, I'm sure it varies by location but I've had three bikes built up here in San Diego by three different shops... The first was my cross bike that I bought the frame/fork used and brought the parts from a previous bike to have it built up. The cost was $250...

My second bike I brought a frame/fork and bought the Campy grouppo and wheels from the shop that did the build... $0 for the build

My most recent bike I bought the frame/fork from the shop and had them take off my Campy stuff/other parts from my old bike and put them on the new bike... $200 for the build normally, charged me $150

I would trust the last two shops with anything I needed, not so much with the first one...

I have no problem paying for good service and the last shop I used (my go-to shop now) had no problem with me going online to buy last years Antares seat since they couldn't get it (I wanted the black/red one), even though I rode their demo saddle for a good two weeks...

WickedWheels- Just do me one favor... take care of the Military/Police/Fire when they come in, the Karma you'll get back will more than makeup for any discounts given... (and build you a great Rep!)

[David Kirk]

I think most good shops do what I do - they do not charge for the build if they sell you the kit.

When I assemble one of my frames with a kit I've purchased for the customer I know it's all going to fit and be compatible. I know that the bar width is right and that the seat post is the right length. I charge a fair price for the kit and the customer gets the right stuff and know it will work as it should.

A good shop is the same way. They will charge more than an online store but you will get real value from the purchase.

dave

[fourflys]

I think most good shops do what I do - they do not charge for the build if they sell you the kit.

When I assemble one of my frames with a kit I've purchased for the customer I know it's all going to fit and be compatible. I know that the bar width is right and that the seat post is the right length. I charge a fair price for the kit and the customer gets the right stuff and know it will work as it should.

A good shop is the same way. They will charge more than an online store but you will get real value from the purchase.

dave

+200 in my opinion...

[JMerring]

A couple years ago I had a local Atlanta bike shop build a new Serotta for me. I sourced the frame and all components myself. (Long story as to why I never used the local Atlanta Serotta dealer at the time, but suffice it to say that I tried very hard to buy a bike from him but he lost out on the sale because of his incompetence as a businessman.)

The local store that did the build charged $180. They did a great job and have had me as a customer ever since, for parts, clothing, nutrition and service. When I'm next in the market for a Cervelo, they will surely get the deal.

Agree with other sentiments already expressed that the OP is making some wildly inaccurate assumptions about people like me. At the end of the day, it is his loss. His business, too, though, so he can conduct it however he wants.

One more thing - as an attorney, I can say that his concerns vis-a-vis liability are misguided as long as he and his mechanics conduct themselves in a professional and workmanlike manner. If they don't, he could be liable irrespective of where the components come from.

[fourflys]

One more thing - as an attorney, ...

An attorney that rides a Serotta? What? Next thing you know, we'll have a dentist admit to it... :D :banana:

sorry, had to do it!

[torquer]

This may have been touched on in other posts (I sped through a bunch when things seemed to be getting heated, but nice work, fellas, keeping it under control!)...
What's the difference (to the shop) between assembling a customer's bike using MO parts and switching parts off one bike onto another? (Assuming a "new" customer in each case.)
Switching parts is a bit more work (since you need to take off parts, not just unwrap them); I don't see any difference in liability; and maybe there is a greater likelihood of needing new bits (or entirely new components) if the frames have different tubing sizes, threading, etc., but no one expects that to be provided for free.
I suspect it comes down to profiling the customer with the switched parts as a "real" cyclist (and therefore more likely repeat customer) while the MO guy is stereotyped as cheap and arguementative (even litigeous).
I'm not in the bike biz, but it seems to me that whatever the added risks of dealing with the latter (and I don't really see them), can a shop afford to turn away potential repeat business?
From some of the answers above, it looks like some think they can.

[snah]

This may have been touched on in other posts (I sped through a bunch when things seemed to be getting heated, but nice work, fellas, keeping it under control!)...
What's the difference (to the shop) between assembling a customer's bike using MO parts and switching parts off one bike onto another? (Assuming a "new" customer in each case.)
Switching parts is a bit more work (since you need to take off parts, not just unwrap them); I don't see any difference in liability; and maybe there is a greater likelihood of needing new bits (or entirely new components) if the frames have different tubing sizes, threading, etc., but no one expects that to be provided for free.
I suspect it comes down to profiling the customer with the switched parts as a "real" cyclist (and therefore more likely repeat customer) while the MO guy is stereotyped as cheap and arguementative (even litigeous).
I'm not in the bike biz, but it seems to me that whatever the added risks of dealing with the latter (and I don't really see them), can a shop afford to turn away potential repeat business?
From some of the answers above, it looks like some think they can.

Agree, don't see the difference to the shop if they're assembling with parts I had laying around the house or parts bought away from the LBS. Simple business to me says the shop either installs, even at a slight premium since parts weren't bought at the LBS, or turns the work away. Being self-employed, as long as you're not losing money, revenue is revenue.

[EricEstlund]

When I worked in a shop, and now as a builder, I don't make judgment calls about a customer based on where they buy their parts. For me the decision on how much to charge and if I'll do it are based on the condition of the parts, their compatibility and the amount of time it will take me.

[veloduffer]

When I had the time to do my own wrenching, I really enjoyed it and bought used stuff from ebay or forum classifieds. At the time, I lived where there wasn't a very good LBS close by.

Now that I'm in NJ, I have a very good LBS (Bicycle Tech in Lincoln Park. It's small shop that sells primarily Treks as its main line, but also Moots. The mechanic and the owner do meticulous work on bikes that I can't do better. After a hiatus from cycling (golf addiction), I'm back and have had them do my recent builds. I ordered most of the part from them and had some parts in my own cache.

While I could have scoured ebay and online for some better deals, they give me 10% off everything and provide great service. Any problem, they will get a new part and deal with the distributor/mfr. Also, if I need something right away, they either have it or can get it in one or two days. I find the price differential is small and in the long run, I'm better off giving my $$ to the LBS rather than an out-of-state or country firm. They pay local taxes and support the bike clubs with sponsorships.

Also, they allow me to hang out and shoot the breeze. :banana:

[goonster]

What liability? You bring your parts and bike to the shop, ask them to assemble it.
There is liability any time you touch a bike.

An acquaintance of mine brought his bike into a shop for bb adjustment. After he got it back, he complained that the shifter no longer worked. When a shop assembles a bike, they may get grief for everything that doesn't work perfectly. Valid or not, those are issues you deal with when you do work, and it costs time and money.

[CHF]

Owning a business is about making money. If you think it's anything else then it's just a place you use to justify your hobby. Building a bike is a service, plain and simple. Price it correctly. If someone brings in a Crumpton frame to your shop and says build this with these parts, are you really going to tell them no because you didn't sell them the frame? Or are you going to say yes and then charge them labor and for all the little odds and ends like cables, housing and bar tape that people don't really bother buying online.

No one cares if that shop is your livelihood. They've got better charities to donate to. Either be the best on price and service, or don't complain when people buy elsewhere and only want your service, not your products.

[johnnymossville]

Building up a bike is one of the easiest yet satisfying things you can do as a rider. Just build it up yourself and ride it.

[Ozz]

I think most good shops do what I do - they do not charge for the build if they sell you the kit.
When I assemble one of my frames with a kit I've purchased for the customer I know it's all going to fit and be compatible. I know that the bar width is right and that the seat post is the right length. I charge a fair price for the kit and the customer gets the right stuff and know it will work as it should.

A good shop is the same way. They will charge more than an online store but you will get real value from the purchase.
dave
This is about the most reasonable thing I've read in a long time.

I don't mind paying a shop $55 for the Swiss Stop brake pads, but don't charge me $15 to install them on top of that! ;)

If you have to bring tools and skills to the installation, then I can see charging a fee, but some of the nickel & dime stuff is just annoying.

[fourflys]

Owning a business is about making money. If you think it's anything else then it's just a place you use to justify your hobby.

that's a pretty big blanket statement right there...

While a business has to make money to survive, I really hope the owners/managers have real buy-in and, for the owner at least, pours in a little bit of his soul...

I'm guessing the custom framebuilders don't share your opinon...

BTW- I've been to some of the shops where it is all about just making a buck... not a place I returned too. You can feel when there is a true passion...

[Ray]

Building up a bike is one of the easiest yet satisfying things you can do as a rider. Just build it up yourself and ride it.
Yep. This is off the originally posted topic, but DAMN, so true. I'll never forget the first time I did a whole build myself (the headset was already in and the wheels were already built). Got a used Merckx frameset from UPS when I got home from work one Friday. Spent a couple of hours building it up that night. Including a little shakedown ride around the neighborhood that night to make sure everything was good. And then rode 50+ miles on it the next day. What a feeling of independence - damn, I can ride 50 or 100 miles or more on a vehicle that I put together myself.

I don't get as much of a thrill from it now as I used to, but I still do 95% of my own work because its easy and saves a lot of coin and it gets done on my schedule. And its still pretty satisfying. I've never been all that mechanically inclined, but bikes are generally really easy, so it makes me feel mechanically at least competent. Which after the hack job I did trying to work on my VW in college, competence feels GOOD! I'm sure I spent a lot on tools over the years, but I've built up my shop so slowly, a few tools at a time at first and now just the occasional oddball thing for some newfangled part, that I never even noticed the expense.

-Ray

[CHF]

Just finished putting it together about three weeks ago. Installed the headset, cut the steerer, the whole nine yards. And I did it with some advice on the headset from the forumites here. The best part about it is that every part is exactly what I wanted all the way down to the cables. And surprisingly, I had all the right parts. :rolleyes:

That being said, I stand by the statement that a business is about making money. That has to be the number 1 thing every day. You can't turn on the lights if it isn't. That doesn't mean you have to be heartless. Just look at the Nordstrom model. Service first, price second. They don't say no to their customers and look how far it has taken them. I would venture they have made more money on repeat business than they lost taking care of their customers.

[David Kirk]

That being said, I stand by the statement that a business is about making money. That has to be the number 1 thing every day. You can't turn on the lights if it isn't. That doesn't mean you have to be heartless. Just look at the Nordstrom model. Service first, price second. They don't say no to their customers and look how far it has taken them. I would venture they have made more money on repeat business than they lost taking care of their customers.

I couldn't agree more. I need to make money or my business is gone and I'm asking you if you want fries with that sir.

But making money in the long term means treating every customer as you'd want to be treated even if it means less money in your pocket at the end of the transaction. In the long run it will pay and you will have success. The golden rule is a good guide to business success.

Dave

[DfCas]

Building up a bike with various sourced parts, as compared to a manufacturers bike out of a box is a whole different ball of wax. I used to do some of this, and I just quit, after several bad experiences. I USED to do some repairs from my home shop. Liability issues caused me to stop.

The customer brings in a Mavic wheel, cassette on, along with a box of parts. After hours of careful assembly, bike shifts like crap, chain jumping off chainring, and more problems. After a while, I find the customer installed the spacers on the cassette on the wrong side of the cassette. After 3 return trips for the chain jumping off, I find the frame is not straight. I now have 8 hours in this build, carefully installing, chasing,facing, greasing every bolt, setting to torque, and the bike is crap.

[johnnymossville]

...treating every customer as you'd want to be treated...

Dave

words to live by, this part works for pretty much everything we do.

[Cantdog]

I'm jumping in late here, but want to throw an opinion in the ring. I try and buy from my local store, and support the hell out of them any way I can--sending customers there way, saying good things about them, helping out when I can, but I'm also in medical school, have zero time, and an assload of debt. So I have to save money any way I can. Usually that means buying used, or from the internet, or bartering. And I love working on my own bikes, but I simply don't have the time to do it. So often, I'll buy things from various places, and bring it over to my shop and have them install it. They understand this, and I apologize for it, and I never get negative things said about me or the way I conduct business. Will I gladly pay full retail from them when I can, 10 years down the road? Yes. Can I afford to do it now? No. Will I continue to buy used, barter, ebay, whatever and bring it to the shop? Yep.

[Peter B]

I think most good shops do what I do - they do not charge for the build if they sell you the kit.

When I assemble one of my frames with a kit I've purchased for the customer I know it's all going to fit and be compatible. I know that the bar width is right and that the seat post is the right length. I charge a fair price for the kit and the customer gets the right stuff and know it will work as it should.

A good shop is the same way. They will charge more than an online store but you will get real value from the purchase.

dave

This is the implied gist of my initial post. If you buy it all from the LBS/builder, there is markup built in, they own parts compatibility and have some 'wiggle' room with cost of assembly. If you source the parts they must make their margin on the assembly alone, while perhaps managing unanticipated compatibility and customer satisfaction issues. Hence rate X hours.

Pay the pros what they're worth if you want/need their services, else do it yourself.

[1centaur]

Wicked: It's a local market question. We can't answer it. Price to your costs and desired profit margin and the market will tell you whether one or the other is off.

$150-$175 around here for a build with MO parts from top shops. $250 would not cut it. Port Washington may be a whole 'nother kettle o fish.

Service and convenience items are the only areas where an LBS has an advantage over the Net. Building enough margins into parts to cover labor only exacerbates that problem. Don't compete where you are at a disadvantage any more than you have to. Embrace service and work on streamlining it to the 'nth degree so you can benefit from MO buyers who choose you. Don't build a business around what you wish it were, build it around what is. The best, most frequent customers are more likely to buy MO than the occasional customers, an irony of the LBS biz. Make your frequent customers the cake and the occasional customers the frosting.

[pdmtong]

My LBS is happy to order, supply or use the parts I bring in. The charge varies...$150-250 depending. I always tip the wrench too. They are ok with using parts I've sourced, and I try to buy a few things full retail during the year. Every now and again I try to drop some beverage by the shop for no reason. If you give a little more than you get, it works out very nicely

[wc1934]

I purchased a frame and fork from my local shop - paid $600. They then switched the components from my old bike to the new frame - needed a new headset, stem, bars, cables, bartape - charged me 250 for parts and 150 for the build -

[BengeBoy]

I can think of at least 6 or 7 bike shops off the top of my head here in the Seattle area that would be happy to do a build for a paying customer, including Elliott Bay, already mentioned above. I think they'd all be "cool" about it, as well -- no grief, no drama.

One of them, Recycled Cycles, lists their various services on their website, including a "pro build" -- $125 plus "parts," (I assume by parts they're meaning cables, small bits, etc.).

http://www.recycledcycles.com/services

Here's another shop, which specializes in triathlon bikes, that has a pretty complete list of services. They don't call out a "clean build" specifically, but I think their "complete overhaul" for $200 would likely cover it:

http://www.speedyreedy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=55

Personally, I don't see why a shop would have an issue with me bringing in a bike + parts for a build. Even if I bought the parts elsewhere, more than likely the rider who brings a bunch of parts in for a build is going to be a much better customer the long term than someone who buys a bike, rides it twice and then puts it away. People building up frames are heavy riders and long-term good customers, even if some of their purchases are used/out-of-town/online, etc.

[wooly]

My local shop would charge $200 but lowered the price to $150 because I bought the wheelset from them. All of the other parts were bought from this site or the web. They also were great to come close to matching a price on the wheels from the web. I decided to spend a little more dough with them for the ongoing support.

[MadeinGermany]

I picked up my new bike on Tuesday. I had dropped my Fierte Carbon frame, fork and a box full of new parts at my LBS, who was happy to assist. In fact, the technicians seemed to get a kick out of it, rummaging through, and commenting on the parts I had chosen. They were as excited as I was to the see bike build up. I was charged $175 for the build, and I think it was worth every penny. I have recommended my LBS several times, and will continue to do so. So in the end, I believe all of us will score. Me, a happy customer who will return for parts, service, etc. And those to whom I recommended the LBS will hopefully drop some minor or major $'s at the shop in the near future. Looks like a win-win to me.

[caleb]

A experienced wrench could do the build in an hour.


I've never seen an experienced wrench do a quality build from scratch in an hour. Most that I know take at least an hour to build a high end boxed bike where most things are already mounted or connected. From scratch, including cutting the fork and all the cables and housings, I'd put it at about three hours from the time they touch the first box until they're done cleaning up the mess.

Internal routing or Di2 also add time. I know of a Di2 build that took 15 hours, some of it with two professional wrenches involved.

[Marcusaurelius]

Although I prefer all bike repairs myself and they are usually places you can go to work on your bike for an hourly charge using the shop tools. If you prefer someone else to do it, I would be very careful about selecting an LBS: they are very good ones and they are ones that are not so very good.
(I always pay a little more at the good LBS because the service is better and the mechanic works on road bikes and sees campagnolo parts more than once every 2 years).

[Jeff N.]

I couldn't agree more. I need to make money or my business is gone and I'm asking you if you want fries with that sir.

But making money in the long term means treating every customer as you'd want to be treated even if it means less money in your pocket at the end of the transaction. In the long run it will pay and you will have success. The golden rule is a good guide to business success.

DaveI couldn'tve put it better...the Golden Rule. Jeff N.

[Ralph]

Like some have said.....I really enjoy building up a bike myself. I can lube every single part. I can take the time to solder every cable end if I wish. I can adjust, and readjust. I can take the time to move the hoods around and route the cables different ways to see if it affects shifting or hand feel....before I cut them. I can take the time to make sure all threads are either greased or use anti seeze....and know it's done right. I can take the time to make sure my brake pads fit the way I want....stuff like that.

If you don't have the time, tools, inclination, or know how....why not let the LBS get the parts for you and let them do it. Recently I have bought a bunch of parts from Ribble and Shiney Bike, about as cheap as you can get, and I doubt if I saved enough to make it worth while to also pay someone a premium price to install them. MHO

[retrogrouchy]

I'm not sure what this means. Are bike shops so unreliable that one can not expect them to safely assemble a bike? Except for stuff that requires real skill, like wheel building, I turn my own wrenches, but I don't see why an LBS could not to the job safely. They're better at it than I am, so if I can so it safely they sure as heck ought to be able to.

If they can't build-up a bike they shouldn't be allowed to do any maintenance.

I was referring to the near-infinite legal liabilities of installing something the customer brought in. If I were me, I wouldn't do it.... :banana:

[Louis]

I was referring to the near-infinite legal liabilities of installing something the customer brought in. If I were me, I wouldn't do it.... :banana:

I still don't see how a customer bringing in a box of parts is any different from a customer bringing in an assembled five year old bike (not purchased from that shop) for a "Complete Performance Tune Up" (a phrase I saw in on ad for an LBS earlier today).

In either case, if the customer rides out of the shop and one block away the fork snaps in half and the customer's breaks all his front teeth, he's going to be pissed. Whether or not he sues depends on how litigation-prone he happens to be, but the way I see it the shop's responsibility is just about identical. However, every LBS I've ever heard of does "tune-ups." The issue is not where the parts come from, it's whether or not the LBS could reasonably have been expected to detect a potentially dangerous situation on a bike and parts they have just been paid to work on.

Louis

Disclosure: I choose to do the majority of my own work (but not stuff like wheel building) so it's not like I'm trying to defend something that I practice. I'm just trying to think about it objectively.

[toasttoast]

i am a college student and only employed part-time, so i'm in a rather different situation than most of you.

i also tend to keep my complete bike costs >500, so i'm not exactly going to be spending 50% of my bike cost on $250 shop labor :)

but-- while i understand time restraints, and lack of tools -- i don't understand why you'd bring a WHOLE box of parts to your shop for work, if you're big on buying from ebay/ribble/this forum/wherever.

i don't have a headset press, carbon steerer cutter, or the BB tools for anything other than square taper, i can do almost anything else and i'm sure as heck not going to pay anyone to wrap my bars or install road brake calipers :)

[soulspinner]

I think most good shops do what I do - they do not charge for the build if they sell you the kit.

When I assemble one of my frames with a kit I've purchased for the customer I know it's all going to fit and be compatible. I know that the bar width is right and that the seat post is the right length. I charge a fair price for the kit and the customer gets the right stuff and know it will work as it should.

A good shop is the same way. They will charge more than an online store but you will get real value from the purchase.

dave

Value. Bingo........... :beer:

[oldpotatoe]

This is the implied gist of my initial post. If you buy it all from the LBS/builder, there is markup built in, they own parts compatibility and have some 'wiggle' room with cost of assembly. If you source the parts they must make their margin on the assembly alone, while perhaps managing unanticipated compatibility and customer satisfaction issues. Hence rate X hours.

Pay the pros what they're worth if you want/need their services, else do it yourself.

BUT the margin charged for parts, the recognized 'standard' of 35 points just keeps the lights on, pays the rent, etc..provides not much wiggle room. If you then spend the shops time(money) to build, you are essentially losing money. Not the same if they bought a rear derailleur and you just handed it to them. Same margin but it takes your time to install it.

If bought at the shop I discount some but not a free assembly.

[retrogrouchy]

I still don't see how a customer bringing in a box of parts is any different from a customer bringing in an assembled five year old bike (not purchased from that shop) for a "Complete Performance Tune Up" (a phrase I saw in on ad for an LBS earlier today).

In either case, if the customer rides out of the shop and one block away the fork snaps in half and the customer's breaks all his front teeth, he's going to be pissed. Whether or not he sues depends on how litigation-prone he happens to be, but the way I see it the shop's responsibility is just about identical. However, every LBS I've ever heard of does "tune-ups." The issue is not where the parts come from, it's whether or not the LBS could reasonably have been expected to detect a potentially dangerous situation on a bike and parts they have just been paid to work on.

Louis

Disclosure: I choose to do the majority of my own work (but not stuff like wheel building) so it's not like I'm trying to defend something that I practice. I'm just trying to think about it objectively.

It's all about liability, and liability is all about who has the deepest pockets to 'go after' in any given situation. If the parts in question weren't supplied through a clear chain of business relationships starting with a large, sue-able Corporation (and they weren't in the 'box o' stuff from the internet' case), and some CF thing breaks and creates a quadraplegic with multi-million Dollar issues, you have a potentially business-life-threatening problem, Chapter 11 style. Becoming an LLC can help protect personal assets, but you still may be out of business. Have you ever run a retail bike-related business? I'm guessing not. I'm still with you 100% on politics, though.... (I said the P-word, folks, but only in passing!).

[rugbysecondrow]

The OP asked a specific question and got some pretty specific answers back. He also got some free insight into customers and what we are looking for. It seems there is a disconnect between what the customers are and what some business owners want them to be.

The truth is that businesses can accept or deny any business they want. The other truth is that the customer really doesn't care about this. As a consumer, I will go to any shop that will do the work for me. I have a preference, but then there is always another and another in line behind them. I don't care about liability, rent, employee costs, anti-web bias, etc. If the price works and is fair, then we can do business. Otherwise, I will move on in the same business like manner my business has been turned away.

It seems shops can either accept that consumers have different motivators or not.

[retrogrouchy]

The OP asked a specific question and got some pretty specific answers back. He also got some free insight into customers and what we are looking for. It seems there is a disconnect between what the customers are and what some business owners want them to be.

The truth is that businesses can accept or deny any business they want. The other truth is that the customer really doesn't care about this. As a consumer, I will go to any shop that will do the work for me. I have a preference, but then there is always another and another in line behind them. I don't care about liability, rent, employee costs, anti-web bias, etc. If the price works and is fair, then we can do business. Otherwise, I will move on in the same business like manner my business has been turned away.

It seems shops can either accept that consumers have different motivators or not.

I pretty much agree with that. My concern is that lots of folks that have never run any kind of business whatsoever spout off about business practices like they have it all figured out. It's very, very difficult to run a business and be successful long-term.

[Lifelover]

....
BTW, for no particular reason other than sales figures our liability insurance increased by over 30% this year.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but within a given industry )like bike sales and repair) liability premiums are determined completely by sales volume. Sales volume is the "particular reason"

It's all about liability, and liability is all about who has the deepest pockets to 'go after' in any given situation. If the parts in question weren't supplied through a clear chain of business relationships starting with a large, sue-able Corporation (and they weren't in the 'box o' stuff from the internet' case), and some CF thing breaks and creates a quadraplegic with multi-million Dollar issues, you have a potentially business-life-threatening problem, Chapter 11 style. Becoming an LLC can help protect personal assets, but you still may be out of business. Have you ever run a retail bike-related business? I'm guessing not. I'm still with you 100% on politics, though.... (I said the P-word, folks, but only in passing!).

ATMO, you have bought into the media hype of liability suits. It is not really that bad out there.

[retrogrouchy]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but within a given industry )like bike sales and repair) liability premiums are determined completely by sales volume. Sales volume is the "particular reason"

<Correct.>


ATMO, you have bought into the media hype of liability suits. It is not really that bad out there.

< Don't agree (part one). Agreed (part two). I don't lay awake nights worried about this, but it happens. If you exercise enough 'due diligence' and have enough liability insurance coverage, it should never be an issue. Emphasis on the 'should.'>

[oldpotatoe]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but within a given industry )like bike sales and repair) liability premiums are determined completely by sales volume. Sales volume is the "particular reason"



ATMO, you have bought into the media hype of liability suits. It is not really that bad out there.

Nope, my liability insurance is not tied to my volume. My premium is based on certain levels of coverage needed or expected, the $ amount.

[Kirk Pacenti]

$130.00

[WickedWheels]

It seems there is a disconnect between what the customers are and what some business owners want them to be.

...If the price works and is fair, then we can do business. Otherwise, I will move on in the same business like manner my business has been turned away.



The purpose to the original question was to try to figure out what mail order customers expect to pay. These are the customers that, in my opinion and experience, often don't place a large value on the service they get by shopping local. I was trying to gauge their responses and get an idea of the thought process. There's certainly a disconnect between some consumers and some businesses, but that's okay. Just like consumers get to pick their shops, so do the shops get to build their clientele to be the type of clientele they want to cater to.

I wonder, however, what the idea of "fair" is based on. Is it the perceived complexity of the job? The price compared to other local retailers? Most people here expect to pay in the vicinity of $150, but if every retailer doubled their rates would $300 be considered fair?

In my area, based on rent, mechanic's salaries, insurance costs, etc., etc., etc. we charge $200-$250 for a complete frame build. It's a take it or leave it proposition. It's simply not worth it for us to do it for less. This is not based purely on expenses, but also on factors like the "cost" of increasing the wait time for our own customers and forcing them to wait longer for their repairs because of mail order customers. It's also based on the "cost" of dealing with improperly spec'd parts that may delay the assembly. The only thing it's not based on is the "punitive" aspect of trying to "stick it to the mail order guy".

[Louis]

In my area, based on rent, mechanic's salaries, insurance costs, etc., etc., etc. we charge $200-$250 for a complete frame build. It's a take it or leave it proposition. It's simply not worth it for us to do it for less.

I think it all depends on how busy you happen to be. If you have better things for the mechanics to work on, then by all means, have them work on whatever brings in the most money. However, if you're not super-busy and the guys are not booked solid, you're paying them the same rate, whether they are working on assembling mail-order stuff, straightening out the clothes racks, or sitting around listening to Nirvana (or whatever they listen to in your shop these days). The rent is going to be the same, whether they do that job or not. If their time is available do the job. If it isn't don't do it.

[fourflys]

but also on factors like the "cost" of increasing the wait time for our own customers wait longer for their repairs because of mail order customers. It's also based on the "cost" of dealing with improperly spec'd parts that may delay the assembly. The only thing it's not based on is the "punitive" aspect of trying to "stick it to the mail order guy".

I have an issue with the whole "own customers" and "mail order customers" idea... If you are doing work for someone, they are your customer...

Now, having said that, I have no problem with charging more for someone who doesn't buy the parts from you... there should be a "discount" for the guy who buys all the parts from the shop...

[BengeBoy]

The only thing it's not based on is the "punitive" aspect of trying to "stick it to the mail order guy".

It still seems to me that you have a chip on your shoulder about "mail order" customers.

Why not just put a sign in the window?

[SoCalSteve]

The purpose to the original question was to try to figure out what mail order customers expect to pay. These are the customers that, in my opinion and experience, often don't place a large value on the service they get by shopping local. I was trying to gauge their responses and get an idea of the thought process. There's certainly a disconnect between some consumers and some businesses, but that's okay. Just like consumers get to pick their shops, so do the shops get to build their clientele to be the type of clientele they want to cater to.

I wonder, however, what the idea of "fair" is based on. Is it the perceived complexity of the job? The price compared to other local retailers? Most people here expect to pay in the vicinity of $150, but if every retailer doubled their rates would $300 be considered fair?

In my area, based on rent, mechanic's salaries, insurance costs, etc., etc., etc. we charge $200-$250 for a complete frame build. It's a take it or leave it proposition. It's simply not worth it for us to do it for less. This is not based purely on expenses, but also on factors like the "cost" of increasing the wait time for our own customers wait longer for their repairs because of mail order customers. It's also based on the "cost" of dealing with improperly spec'd parts that may delay the assembly. The only thing it's not based on is the "punitive" aspect of trying to "stick it to the mail order guy".

I have a feeling this is a very quick way to put yourself out of business, unless I am mistaking your meaning...Seems like in the climate of the world we live in now...You'd want to not be so picky and choosy on who is giving your business $$$...

[jblande]

I spend quite a bit of my salary on bikes. That's because I ride a lot and love it. I spend some of that money in a shop and some of it online. I do some of the work myself, but I also have a job that takes a lot of time and a fiance. Therefore, I also use a bike shop.

Your attitude would turn me off, as you think there are two categories of customers, neither of which I'd be willing to count myself among. I do agree that a good shop has highly qualified mechanics, and I'd be willing to pay for their service.

I give some work here with a highly skilled mechanic who has his own workshop, independent of a retail store. Because bikes are a more common form of transportation in Germany/Switzerland than the US, he makes a good living doing so. I really like to support him, because he provides the service I need. I wonder if such an arrangement has a future in the US.

When I bought my Serotta (while living in the US), I bought the frame and fork from the shop. I had traded one of my colleagues for a few parts, and bought the crank, handlebar and stem online. It turned out I made a mistake with the front derailleur clamp. Human error. The shop where I bought the bike called me and told me they would order the replacement part, for which they charged me full retail. I understood all the while that they would have preferred for me to purchase a complete group from them and wheels. I didn't want to, given my situation, and they met me half way. The entire transaction made them a good sum of money, and I continued to shop there.

If I had walked into your store and received the message I gather from your posts, you would have lost a very expensive bike purchase in addition to all future business. If your customer-eugenics seems worth the loss, go for it. Seems really foolish to me.

Kind Regards,

(Dis)loyal JBL

[retrogrouchy]

Like I (basically) said, it amuses me that so many who have never run any kind of business can be 'experts' on how someone else's business should or should not be run. :argue:

[fourflys]

Like I (basically) said, it amuses me that so many who have never run any kind of business can be 'experts' on how someone else's business should or should not be run. :argue:

you don't have to have run retail to know what good customer service is... Good customer service is universal and, for the most part, understood across the board...

The OP can do what he want's with his shop, he has the liability if it folds... It would just seem to the majority here that he seems to be heading down a bad road... But if it works for him and his business model, good for him...

I can tell you from a non-business owning perspective that if I had been one of the MO customers or had been in the shop and overheard the conversation (and I bet the snide remarks after the customer left...), I would have left and told everyone I know not to go to that shop. I sometimes think retail owners downplay what word of mouth can do for or to a business...

[1centaur]

I don't think there's any magic to the yin-yang here. Customers are looking for the lowest cost combination of service and convenience that can be provided to them with a good attitude. That's a positive shopping experience. On the Net they get a ton of low cost and convenience vs. an LBS, and get it with an electronic version of a good attitude. There is no denying that this provides a lot of positives that most shops can't match.

Shop owners are trying to make a living without any more hassle than they have to put up with. They are trying to do that without the cost advantages of the Net but with the advantages of speed on what they choose to stock and no Net competition on service. Is there a good living in that combo? For some, there's a decent living, depending on stocking the right stuff (high turnover and/or good margin), hiring the right people and being in the right location. That's a lot of stuff to get right. Get a little of it wrong and the pricing on everything else feels off. Staff with attitude? Sales lost. Wrong inventory mix? Too much cash drag in working capital. Reach for too much margin? The market will react by not coming through the door. Shops don't end up being successful by forcing people to change their nature, they win by pleasing people as they are. The Net is very good at that. That won't change.

[Louis]

Like I (basically) said, it amuses me that so many who have never run any kind of business can be 'experts' on how someone else's business should or should not be run. :argue:

In other words, in response to the OP this thread should have been just a string of $ figures, nothing more? I don't think that's how this forum works. People have opinions and they share them with the group. I think that's one of the things that makes it an interesting place.

[dave thompson]

I worked in, ran and later owned motorcycle shops for almost 30 years. I used to tell my guys that even though I signed their paychecks, the customers filled out the dollar amount. A store can't conceivably get each and every bike sale or every parts sale. The real breadwinner in retail stores like a cycle shop is labor charges. I would encourage riders that didn't buy from me to bring their bikes in for warranty work and maintenance. Dollars are dollars regardless where they come from.

If I didn't get the sales I would try to examine why we didn't. Was it bad salesmanship? Attitude? Lack of skills? Someone bad-mouthing me?

IMO, bicycles are incredibly personal items and we, both the LBS and bike owners, have a strong tendency to invest a lot of emotion in them. Therefore I think it's somewhat natural for an LBS to take the loss of a sale on a personal level but that should not allow them to take it out on the customer. Any owner or employee of a bicycle shop that cops an attitude is foolish. If I were an LBS, and I gave some serious thought to being one not terribly long ago, I would do everything in my powers to ensure that all cyclists were at least treated fairly, with dignity and directed to many reasons why they should spend their hard-earned money in my store. Any shop that doesn't do that is doomed, sooner or later.

[dancinkozmo]

mr. thompson sounds like a very smart man ....

[Ken Robb]

mr. thompson sounds like a very smart man ....

Not that smart. He sold his H'ors Cat. :)

[retrogrouchy]

I don't think there's any magic to the yin-yang here. Customers are looking for the lowest cost combination of service and convenience that can be provided to them with a good attitude. That's a positive shopping experience. On the Net they get a ton of low cost and convenience vs. an LBS, and get it with an electronic version of a good attitude. There is no denying that this provides a lot of positives that most shops can't match.

Shop owners are trying to make a living without any more hassle than they have to put up with. They are trying to do that without the cost advantages of the Net but with the advantages of speed on what they choose to stock and no Net competition on service. Is there a good living in that combo? For some, there's a decent living, depending on stocking the right stuff (high turnover and/or good margin), hiring the right people and being in the right location. That's a lot of stuff to get right. Get a little of it wrong and the pricing on everything else feels off. Staff with attitude? Sales lost. Wrong inventory mix? Too much cash drag in working capital. Reach for too much margin? The market will react by not coming through the door. Shops don't end up being successful by forcing people to change their nature, they win by pleasing people as they are. The Net is very good at that. That won't change.

I definitely agree with that!

To the knee-jerk armchair experts, go start a small business, come back in five years (at least 85% of you will have failed by that point), and we'll compare notes. ;)

[retrogrouchy]

I worked in, ran and later owned motorcycle shops for almost 30 years. I used to tell my guys that even though I signed their paychecks, the customers filled out the dollar amount. A store can't conceivably get each and every bike sale or every parts sale. The real breadwinner in retail stores like a cycle shop is labor charges. I would encourage riders that didn't buy from me to bring their bikes in for warranty work and maintenance. Dollars are dollars regardless where they come from.

If I didn't get the sales I would try to examine why we didn't. Was it bad salesmanship? Attitude? Lack of skills? Someone bad-mouthing me?

IMO, bicycles are incredibly personal items and we, both the LBS and bike owners, have a strong tendency to invest a lot of emotion in them. Therefore I think it's somewhat natural for an LBS to take the loss of a sale on a personal level but that should not allow them to take it out on the customer. Any owner or employee of a bicycle shop that cops an attitude is foolish. If I were an LBS, and I gave some serious thought to being one not terribly long ago, I would do everything in my powers to ensure that all cyclists were at least treated fairly, with dignity and directed to many reasons why they should spend their hard-earned money in my store. Any shop that doesn't do that is doomed, sooner or later.

Agreed 100%! However, there are still some customers that you will be better off without. The challenge is to identify them and handle them appropriately (and still do it with fairness, respect and dignity, even if they are, uh, well, let's not go there). It's really a one-percenter thing, it's not 'this type' or 'that type' of customer.

[Louis]

To the knee-jerk armchair experts, go start a small business, come back in five years (at least 85% of you will have failed by that point), and we'll compare notes. ;)

I can see that you're wishing us the very best and we all appreciate your attitude and support - thanks :)

[retrogrouchy]

In other words, in response to the OP this thread should have been just a string of $ figures, nothing more? I don't think that's how this forum works. People have opinions and they share them with the group. I think that's one of the things that makes it an interesting place.

Unfortunately, you seem to only see the world in terms of black and white. It's millions of shades of grey out there!

[David Kirk]

I worked in, ran and later owned motorcycle shops for almost 30 years. I used to tell my guys that even though I signed their paychecks, the customers filled out the dollar amount. A store can't conceivably get each and every bike sale or every parts sale. The real breadwinner in retail stores like a cycle shop is labor charges. I would encourage riders that didn't buy from me to bring their bikes in for warranty work and maintenance. Dollars are dollars regardless where they come from.

If I didn't get the sales I would try to examine why we didn't. Was it bad salesmanship? Attitude? Lack of skills? Someone bad-mouthing me?

IMO, bicycles are incredibly personal items and we, both the LBS and bike owners, have a strong tendency to invest a lot of emotion in them. Therefore I think it's somewhat natural for an LBS to take the loss of a sale on a personal level but that should not allow them to take it out on the customer. Any owner or employee of a bicycle shop that cops an attitude is foolish. If I were an LBS, and I gave some serious thought to being one not terribly long ago, I would do everything in my powers to ensure that all cyclists were at least treated fairly, with dignity and directed to many reasons why they should spend their hard-earned money in my store. Any shop that doesn't do that is doomed, sooner or later.

Right on.

Dave

[William]

I worked in, ran and later owned motorcycle shops for almost 30 years. I used to tell my guys that even though I signed their paychecks, the customers filled out the dollar amount. A store can't conceivably get each and every bike sale or every parts sale. The real breadwinner in retail stores like a cycle shop is labor charges. I would encourage riders that didn't buy from me to bring their bikes in for warranty work and maintenance. Dollars are dollars regardless where they come from.

If I didn't get the sales I would try to examine why we didn't. Was it bad salesmanship? Attitude? Lack of skills? Someone bad-mouthing me?

IMO, bicycles are incredibly personal items and we, both the LBS and bike owners, have a strong tendency to invest a lot of emotion in them. Therefore I think it's somewhat natural for an LBS to take the loss of a sale on a personal level but that should not allow them to take it out on the customer. Any owner or employee of a bicycle shop that cops an attitude is foolish. If I were an LBS, and I gave some serious thought to being one not terribly long ago, I would do everything in my powers to ensure that all cyclists were at least treated fairly, with dignity and directed to many reasons why they should spend their hard-earned money in my store. Any shop that doesn't do that is doomed, sooner or later.



http://www.webweaver.nu/clipart/img/misc/construction/hammer-animation.gif

:beer:

[gdw]

"Like I (basically) said, it amuses me that so many who have never run any kind of business can be 'experts' on how someone else's business should or should not be run. "

This is a very diverse forum and a number of its members have successfully run more complex and larger businesses than any local bike shop. Read Dave Thompson's post again. The man knows what he's talking about.

[retrogrouchy]

"Like I (basically) said, it amuses me that so many who have never run any kind of business can be 'experts' on how someone else's business should or should not be run. "

This is a very diverse forum and a number of its members have successfully run more complex and larger businesses than any local bike shop. Read Dave Thompson's post again. The man knows what he's talking about.

Um, I quoted and agreed with his post....

[rugbysecondrow]

Agreed 100%! However, there are still some customers that you will be better off without. The challenge is to identify them and handle them appropriately (and still do it with fairness, respect and dignity, even if they are, uh, well, let's not go there). It's really a one-percenter thing, it's not 'this type' or 'that type' of customer.

As somebody who has had a small business and a consumer, I agree with this. There are some customers that are such a PITA that you would be better to not have at all.

It seems though that the dividing line need not be those customers who also purchase goods online.

As for price, my local shop charges about $150 for this service, which comes to $50 an hour for a three hour job...not bad if you ask me.

[dancinkozmo]

Not that smart. He sold his H'ors Cat. :)

really ?? what a dope !! :)

[dave thompson]

really ?? what a dope !! :)
No mercy from you guys, eh?

[WickedWheels]

I have a feeling this is a very quick way to put yourself out of business, unless I am mistaking your meaning...Seems like in the climate of the world we live in now...You'd want to not be so picky and choosy on who is giving your business $$$...


Everyone in the shop, mail order shopper or not, gets treated fairly and with respect. We simply don't price ourselves and our labor in a way that would encourage mail order shoppers to overwhelm us with work.

As for picking our clientele...
Almost every professional that is in this business does it because their love of cycling is more important than a massive paycheck. We value a good work environment, we enjoy the work that we do, the customers that we have (that often turn into good friends). Bike shops are businesses, but if we were into it purely for the money almost all of us would have left the business a long time ago. That being said, there are plenty of difficult customers whose business is simply not worth having. If any of you are in sales or own/run a business can surely appreciate that sentiment.

As for the chip on my shoulder... it's only against people that don't give their LBS a fair chance. We don't like to lose business to mail order because people assume we can't compete.

Last month we sold a forum member a high-end Italian bike for around 5% more than what he could have purchased it for online. This was a brand that we did not carry, but he was a very good customer and we wanted to make sure that he did not need to go elsewhere for any reason. That price included assembly, fitting and a year's worth of mechanical service. It was a super-low-margin transaction, but worth it to us and certain to him.

Last week we sold a SRAM Red group to a customer who initially brought in a group in a box from a mail order company asking us to install it. We matched the mail order price and included the installation for free, so he returned the group to the MO place. Again, it was super-low-margin, but was done to show this customer (who is a consistent mail order shopper) that he should take the time to ask the shop first.

This is fairly typical for us. For good customers, or to gain customers that we feel can be good and loyal, we will do just about anything. We just need to be given the chance.

This thread has gotten pretty far away from the original question...

[retrogrouchy]

Everyone in the shop, mail order shopper or not, gets treated fairly and with respect. We simply don't price ourselves and our labor in a way that would encourage mail order shoppers to overwhelm us with work.

As for picking our clientele...
Almost every professional that is in this business does it because their love of cycling is more important than a massive paycheck. We value a good work environment, we enjoy the work that we do, the customers that we have (that often turn into good friends). Bike shops are businesses, but if we were into it purely for the money almost all of us would have left the business a long time ago. That being said, there are plenty of difficult customers whose business is simply not worth having. If any of you are in sales or own/run a business can surely appreciate that sentiment.

As for the chip on my shoulder... it's only against people that don't give their LBS a fair chance. We don't like to lose business to mail order because people assume we can't compete.

Last month we sold a forum member a high-end Italian bike for around 5% more than what he could have purchased it for online. This was a brand that we did not carry, but he was a very good customer and we wanted to make sure that he did not need to go elsewhere for any reason. That price included assembly, fitting and a year's worth of mechanical service. It was a super-low-margin transaction, but worth it to us and certain to him.

Last week we sold a SRAM Red group to a customer who initially brought in a group in a box from a mail order company asking us to install it. We matched the mail order price and included the installation for free, so he returned the group to the MO place. Again, it was super-low-margin, but was done to show this customer (who is a consistent mail order shopper) that he should take the time to ask the shop first.

This is fairly typical for us. For good customers, or to gain customers that we feel can be good and loyal, we will do just about anything. We just need to be given the chance.

This thread has gotten pretty far away from the original question...

Well said. Nice to complete the circle, so to speak. Thanks. I bend over backwards for 99% of my customers, and I have some of the best customers in the World, but there are still those darn one-percenters to deal with, and liability issues to be cognizant of.

[Dekonick]

Interesting to hear shop vs. customer views. I just brought my Ellsworth (7 year old frame/fork) to the LBS with a box of parts (BNIB '09 SRAM x9 kit and AVID disk brakes) minus cables, housing and a few misc parts. They charged me $170 for the build, including cables, housing, and brake levers. (bought them from the shop) I offered to let them match or come close to the deal I got on the SRAM - they couldn't even come close (closeout prices are what they are - hard to beat 300 bucks for a cassette, rear and front derailleurs, crankset, chain, and shift levers.)

I buy some retail items from them (today I paid $50 for a gym bag - nice bag, and probably could have found it on the net for $30) but for components, I find I manage to beat them every time.

I build up my road bikes, but I decided to have them do this mountain bike build for me as I don't have the time to do it myself right now and would need to buy a couple of tools I don't have. They are happy. I am happy. :banana:

Oh yeah - if you have every part needed they charge $60 for a build (from a box)

[WickedWheels]

I worked in, ran and later owned motorcycle shops for almost 30 years....The real breadwinner in retail stores like a cycle shop is labor charges. I would encourage riders that didn't buy from me to bring their bikes in for warranty work and maintenance. Dollars are dollars regardless where they come from.


I was just re-reading this thread and thought some of you may find this interesting...

At our shop the "real breadwinner" is not labor. Not even close! We constantly evaluate and re-evaluate our business, as our computer system is fairly accurate. Our service department barely pays for itself (at least in terms of labor charges). This is largely due to the costs of good mechanics in our area (our shop pays fairly well) and also due to the amount of work we do for free because we give a year's service with a bike purchase (and strongly encourage our customers to take advantage of it). Of course the department makes us money in other ways... We couldn't possibly sell any bikes if we didn't have a place to build them. Also, we're not including profit made on components, which makes a big difference as well.

We do a lot of high-end road and tri business, but still our big breadwinner is the "Fitness Hybrid" category.

A forum member asked me the name of the shop, in private. I'm with Brickwell Cycling & Multisports in Great Neck, NY. If you're in the area and want to see what we're all about swing by and say hello.

-Alex-

[BengeBoy]

A forum member asked me the name of the shop, in private. I'm with Brickwell Cycling & Multisports in Great Neck, NY. If you're in the area and want to see what we're all about swing by and say hello.
-Alex-

Now I'm really confused, because I thought your shop was trying to spend less time with "mail order" shoppers (which I assume includes online shoppers).

Your shop seems to have an e-commerce shopping cart:

http://brickwell.com/product-list/components-85/cranksets-accessories-148/

If I buy things online from Brickwell, am wondering if you guys are OK if I get my local shop to install them for me? :)

[Lifelover]

I was just re-reading this thread and thought some of you may find this interesting...

At our shop the "real breadwinner" is not labor. Not even close! We constantly evaluate and re-evaluate our business, as our computer system is fairly accurate. Our service department barely pays for itself (at least in terms of labor charges). This is largely due to the costs of good mechanics in our area (our shop pays fairly well) and also due to the amount of work we do for free because we give a year's service with a bike purchase (and strongly encourage our customers to take advantage of it). Of course the department makes us money in other ways... We couldn't possibly sell any bikes if we didn't have a place to build them. Also, we're not including profit made on components, which makes a big difference as well.

We do a lot of high-end road and tri business, but still our big breadwinner is the "Fitness Hybrid" category.

A forum member asked me the name of the shop, in private. I'm with Brickwell Cycling & Multisports in Great Neck, NY. If you're in the area and want to see what we're all about swing by and say hello.

-Alex-


Interesting, Sounds like your shop could use more internet customers and fewer free service customers.

You might be looking at this all wrong.

Jus sayin.


Let me guess: You lose a little money on each "free service" customer, but you make it up in volume? :banana:

[WickedWheels]

Now I'm really confused, because I thought your shop was trying to spend less time with "mail order" shoppers (which I assume includes online shoppers).

Your shop seems to have an e-commerce shopping cart:

http://brickwell.com/product-list/components-85/cranksets-accessories-148/

If I buy things online from Brickwell, am wondering if you guys are OK if I get my local shop to install them for me? :)


:D

We're not trying to spend less time with mail order customers. We're just not giving our labor away for free to people coming in with mail order parts. By all means, get your local shop to install your parts for you, just don't begrudge their labor rates.

If you'll notice, just about everything on our site is at MSRP. We're not undercutting anyone's prices online. The few discounted items that we have are discontinued items or "demo" things. Our site is set up to increase our exposure and to allow our international customers to purchase from us with ease.

The free service that we provide has been paid for with previous bike purchases. If we spend all of our time doing free service that means that our sales area is rocking and things are going well. I believe, and I may be mistaken in this, that getting bogged down with doing this kind of free service is an indication of a healthy business, where as doing bike builds for 1/2 price is quite the opposite. Besides, the free service work is a lot more gratifying because a lot of times it means that another person is getting into the sport. Half-priced labor on a box of mail order parts... not so much!

[soulspinner]

My local wheel guru has built and rebuilt wheels I own, and hes batting 1000. When I called him up to see his cost to rebuild a wheel that was run over, he said 25 dollars. I told him he is undervaluing himself. When I showed up to get the wheel he charged me 30 bucks and a week later I went to work there :)

[SPOKE]

I'm curious about the liability issues. I would assume that a shop will be liable for its own negligence (e.g., not tightening the handlebars) but not for defects in parts that the customer brought in (e.g., the crank snaps on a climb). Since the former should be a non-issue for a good shop and the latter isn't the shop's responsibility, what's the problem?

I'm the guy that builds/repairs bikes out of his garage....
It's not uncommon for me to have several customer bikes in my possession
waiting for my attention. Value of these bikes can easily exceed $25k.
I also have a parts inventory that ties up my cash but allows me
to make repairs quickly without waiting for parts to arrive.
I'm on the hook if a part fails and the rider gets hurt or at least fixing/replacing the damaged part. In extreme cases I may have
to hire a lawyer to defend my position. Therefore I carry insurance on
my inventory, my customer's bike's, and liability coverage that helps
protect me in the event of an injury claim.
Bottom line is my overhead is still pretty low compared to your LBS
but it costs money for this stuff. It costs the LBS even more
money due to employee salaries, rent, workmens comp insurance,
insurance for employees. Anyway it's alot of expence before any profit
is made.

[fourflys]

:D
Our site is set up to increase our exposure and to allow our international customers to purchase from us with ease.


Any shop or business who doesn't have a web presence in this day and age is pretty stupid... The main thing, in my opinion, is to make sure the inventory online reflects inventory in the store as accuratly as possible. When I move to an area (military, move a lot), one of the first things I do is go online and search out whatever I'm interested in. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who does this...

This is the internet age and businesses have to get up to speed or be left behind...

[soulspinner]

I'm the guy that builds/repairs bikes out of his garage....
It's not uncommon for me to have several customer bikes in my possession
waiting for my attention. Value of these bikes can easily exceed $25k.
I also have a parts inventory that ties up my cash but allows me
to make repairs quickly without waiting for parts to arrive.
I'm on the hook if a part fails and the rider gets hurt or at least fixing/replacing the damaged part. In extreme cases I may have
to hire a lawyer to defend my position. Therefore I carry insurance on
my inventory, my customer's bike's, and liability coverage that helps
protect me in the event of an injury claim.
Bottom line is my overhead is still pretty low compared to your LBS
but it costs money for this stuff. It costs the LBS even more
money due to employee salaries, rent, workmens comp insurance,
insurance for employees. Anyway it's alot of expence before any profit
is made.

+1

[cnighbor1]

I would do it myself. I would use the funds to buy the correct quality tools. than go to Sheldon Browns web site for advide on how to install a component. Also you tube has videos to watch
Wheels if building those also ask about a good builder in your area. Rivendell in CA does a great job
Charles

[Lifelover]

I've never seen an experienced wrench do a quality build from scratch in an hour. Most that I know take at least an hour to build a high end boxed bike where most things are already mounted or connected. From scratch, including cutting the fork and all the cables and housings, I'd put it at about three hours from the time they touch the first box until they're done cleaning up the mess.

Internal routing or Di2 also add time. I know of a Di2 build that took 15 hours, some of it with two professional wrenches involved.

I agree and have changed my original post (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=775957&postcount=23) . I was confusing a true complete build.

[pbjbike]

:D

We're not trying to spend less time with mail order customers. We're just not giving our labor away for free to people coming in with mail order parts. By all means, get your local shop to install your parts for you, just don't begrudge their labor rates.

If you'll notice, just about everything on our site is at MSRP. We're not undercutting anyone's prices online. The few discounted items that we have are discontinued items or "demo" things. Our site is set up to increase our exposure and to allow our international customers to purchase from us with ease.

The free service that we provide has been paid for with previous bike purchases. If we spend all of our time doing free service that means that our sales area is rocking and things are going well. I believe, and I may be mistaken in this, that getting bogged down with doing this kind of free service is an indication of a healthy business, where as doing bike builds for 1/2 price is quite the opposite. Besides, the free service work is a lot more gratifying because a lot of times it means that another person is getting into the sport. Half-priced labor on a box of mail order parts... not so much!

From this thread I can tell you are good people. And that's a tough market where you are. Keep on.

[Vancouverdave]

I charge $175 with up-charges for Campag 11 chains (have to amortize the chain tool, you know,) and bars with internal cables. The basic charge includes PROPER cutting of carbon steerer forks and an assumption of prebuilt wheels--otherwise $70 per pair labor for wheelbuilding if the spokes are the right length, then I get to sell you spokes. Mail order can be a small shop's friend if handled right. And I don't mind talking to customers first to make sure they're ordering the right parts for their frame and/or their use. And +1 on everything Spoke said!

[Ken Robb]

This has gone on so long I can't remember it all but if I ran a shop I would look at this work as a source of extra income and price it accordingly at my usual labor rate. I would have the customer acknowledge on the work order that there will be extra labor charges for parts that don't work/aren't correct.

One has to remember that satisfied customers of all kinds tell other people about "their" shop and those folks may become your dream customers.

I suppose a lone shop in a remote area could have a policy of only installing components that they sold because the customers who couldn't do the work themselves would have no practical option. Of course, that might just encourage locals to do MORE on-line purchasing. :)

[fourflys]

I charge $175 with up-charges for Campag 11 chains (have to amortize the chain tool, you know,)

So, how much is the "up-charge"?

I have some heartburn with charging extra for the 11 speed stuff (not just you, there are others as well)... If you're a mechanic, buying tools is the cost of doing business in my opinion...

[torquer]

At our shop the "real breadwinner" is not labor. Not even close! We constantly evaluate and re-evaluate our business, as our computer system is fairly accurate. Our service department barely pays for itself (at least in terms of labor charges). This is largely due to the costs of good mechanics in our area (our shop pays fairly well) and also due to the amount of work we do for free because we give a year's service with a bike purchase (and strongly encourage our customers to take advantage of it). Of course the department makes us money in other ways... We couldn't possibly sell any bikes if we didn't have a place to build them. Also, we're not including profit made on components, which makes a big difference as well.
-Alex-
I'm not an accountant (I just like playing with Excel), but your analysis of your service department's profitability sounds flawed to me. It also runs counter to the testimony of other shop owners, as well as from other (roughly comparable) industries, notably auto and motorcycle sales.

If you're not being reimbursed by the manufacturer, the cost of warrantee service/repairs should be attributed to the front of the store; as presented in the quoted post, you are inflating the profit margin from bike sales. You are quite right, however, about the intangible benefits accruing from the service department; I have no idea how to put a value on that part of the equation.

Over on VeloNews today, there's an article about a new $800 SRAM group, which highlights how this undercuts the equivalent 105 group by $500. (Prices are MSRP, presumably.) Given your labor costs, what are the relative cost implications under the following scenarios:
1. Your shop sells a new Cervelo/Cannondale/Guru (just picking 3 names) spec'd with this group, so just standard assembly required.
2. Customer walks in, picks a C/C/G frame from stock, and asks you to build it up with this group. (Plus either pre-built or shop-built wheels.)
3. Customer has frame, wants to upgrade to 10-speed with this SRAM group (and same wheels as #2).

What I'm getting at, is the question of whether there can be enough mark-up with an $800 group that you can "throw-in" some amount of labor for installation, or do you treat each side of the store (sales and service) as stand-alone profit centers.

[Pete Serotta]

Service cost and thus profits really depend on many things - area of the country, skills of the mechanic, rents, salaries, insurance, etx.

There is no blanket formula for it. Lets take a few examples..

- skill level of mechanic
- salary
- percent of full time vs part time employees
- benefits (vacation, holidays,, medical)
- rent
- inventory
- good will fixes
- most warranty work I know off, the part is under warranty(and credit from mft) but the labor is not.

Very few shops can carry the same staff in peak months that they do in non peak (for they must be paid even though the revenue is not coming in).

In the past winter, this would have really taken a toll on profits (really a monthly loss).

Good shops have a core mechanic staff that they pay for 12 months a year. (and some of that time, they do other shop "things") but the revenue is not coming in - if they are not doing repairs.

I do not know, personally of any shop that is raking in huge profits on repairs. In fact I know of few shops that have made huge profits over the past two years.


Formulas I have seen used over the years are:

- Store 1 Bike SALES is the #1 priority and service is a low priority. They have a part time staff of wrenches (not mechanics in most cases). They deal in volume and discounts on the bikes. Service is an after thought and they do as little as possible.

- Store 2 Bike Sales are the money/profit generator - they have a well qualified mechanical staff that, while not cheap, provides superior customer service for a fair (no I did not use cheap) price. Their reputation for service sells bikes and also service. THey do little discounting BUT do provide "things" to the regular customers.

There are many in between these two based on a combination of the two,

I know folks who shop ALWAYS for the cheapest price for an item THAT Is all they care about - thus they go online or to store 1.

I know others who ride and want excellent and timely service - they go to store 2 and build a relationship to support their riding.


Both models work for some but neither one works for all :D

[WickedWheels]

...
If you're not being reimbursed by the manufacturer, the cost of warrantee service/repairs should be attributed to the front of the store; as presented in the quoted post, you are inflating the profit margin from bike sales. You are quite right, however, about the intangible benefits accruing from the service department; I have no idea how to put a value on that part of the equation.

...Given your labor costs, what are the relative cost implications under the following scenarios:
1. Your shop sells a new Cervelo/Cannondale/Guru (just picking 3 names) spec'd with this group, so just standard assembly required.
2. Customer walks in, picks a C/C/G frame from stock, and asks you to build it up with this group. (Plus either pre-built or shop-built wheels.)
3. Customer has frame, wants to upgrade to 10-speed with this SRAM group (and same wheels as #2).

What I'm getting at, is the question of whether there can be enough mark-up with an $800 group that you can "throw-in" some amount of labor for installation, or do you treat each side of the store (sales and service) as stand-alone profit centers.

A couple of things here...
The bike business is very different from the motorcycle business. Motorcycle dealers aren't losing business to mail order. They charge for their labor rates and are respected for it. As for other shops... a bike shop in the midwest doesn't have the same overhead as a shop in the suburbs of NYC, so their volume and income has to come from very different places. We just hired a good mechanic from (supposedly) a busy shop in Georgia and he's floored by the volume and the high-end that we do. While I attribute a lot of that to the quality of our shop, I also have to attribute a lot of that to our area.

As for the groups and scenarios... An $800 group, IF actually sold at full MSRP, would result in about $300 profit. That's not enough to cover 1-3 hours of labor it would take to fully set everything up and give the service a warranty/adjustment period. There would be an assembly charge for everything except the stock bike production bike. It would be discounted based on what was bought from us and what the overall margin is. The official answer on a bike build is $250. If we have enough margin to drop the build to $100 (or give it away) we always do it. Most of the time when the frame and components are purchased from us the labor is included (and guaranteed) , although we always make it a point to put the cost on the receipt, whether it's zero'd out or not.