Is that all it takes to get banned from the forum?

[Tobias]

Is asking another rider why they changed the gearing on their triple bike all it takes to get banned or locked out of the forum? It’d be funny if not so difficult to comprehend.

I was as forthright in expressing my opinions as RPS and I wasn’t banned. Maybe this will do it. :rolleyes:

I’m not confused by the forum rules but how they are being applied. I doubt Rick really cares that much about being prevented from participation, but going back and reading his posts on the triple thread I don’t see a single thing that suggests a problem of that magnitude.

The only thing really weird was Pete deleting one of his responses to RPS. I get why he would delete one of RPS’ posts if out of line, but why delete his own?

I’m so confused I should probably step away for a while until new rules become better established.


Rant over …… and just in case this gets me banned too, so long to all. :beer:

[paczki]

Are you sure he was banned? He doesn't show up on the banned list.

[William]

I'm surprised I wasn't banned years ago. :confused:

Looks like some fleshing out of the "new rules" is going on. Sounds also like a few folks have an issue with the new modes tactics as well. I guess we'll see how things wash out in the next few weeks.




William

[Tobias]

Are you sure he was banned? He doesn't show up on the banned list.
I'm not familiar with status lists, or how many status classes exist. He just wrote he is not allowed to log on. Locking out, banning, whatever you want to call it. :confused:

He thinks it's funny. Go figure. I'd be pissed.

[gdw]

This forum has had a rocky winter but with better weather and no political threads it should improve. I hope we just have a minor misunderstanding and RPS wan't really banned over that exchange.

[Lifelover]

....
I’m so confused I should probably step away for a while until new rules become better established.


Rant over …… and just in case this gets me banned too, so long to all. :beer:


You will be missed just as much as the other 12,000 members who choose to post nothing today.

P.S. I'm not even sure who you are talking about but I suspect it is the same person that posted the little rant against Socalsteve late last night in the classifieds section. That thread has been removed completely.

[snah]

You will be missed just as much as the other 12,000 members who choose to post nothing today.

P.S. I'm not even sure who you are talking about but I suspect it is the same person that posted the little rant against Socalsteve late last night in the classifieds section. That thread has been removed completely.

Believe that was Louis, not RPS. Wish I'd followed that thread cause I've got no idea what happened.

[Smiley]

Anheida Ride got banned from across the hall and he wore that banning as a badge of honor. Its a bike forum for Pete's sake, keeping it real, man you guys should see the stuff they post on College team message boards, they are brutal :)

Anyway I am sure Pete will drink mucho vino next week and all will be restored to those that were exiled :banana:

[Tobias]

Believe that was Louis, not RPS. Wish I'd followed that thread cause I've got no idea what happened.
I doubt it was RPS because he rarely buys used equipment for his unique bikes. I recall on the Judy fork (I think that's right name) thread he mentioned buying used only because it was no longer made and couldn't find a new one.

Louis is normally a pretty level headed guy too so I don't know what could have happened there (if he was the guy). I don't want to spread rumors since I don't follow classifieds at all. I've never been to that section.

[Tobias]

Anyway I am sure Pete will drink mucho vino next week and all will be restored to those that were exiled :banana:
Are you suggesting Pete could drink too much vino and make poor decisions?

[Smiley]

No get mellower in contrast :)

[Ahneida Ride]

Anheida Ride got banned from across the hall and he wore that banning as a badge of honor. Its a bike forum for Pete's sake, keeping it real, man you guys should see the stuff they post on College team message boards, they are brutal :)

Anyway I am sure Pete will drink mucho vino next week and all will be restored to those that were exiled :banana:


It's far worse !!!!

Serotta Andrew Placed me on Double Secret Probation over here years
ago and even Pete can't get me off of it.

[jpw]

Rules,...what rules?

[Ahneida Ride]

I'm surprised I wasn't banned years ago. :confused:

William

William is on Single Secret Probation.

I am on Double and I don't even post pictures ????

[Smiley]

Andrew was fast on the trigger for banning folks, the moderator thing drove him to BC, Canada :) Ahey :)

[TMB]

Andrew was fast on the trigger for banning folks, the moderator thing drove him to BC, Canada :) Ahey :)

Where???

[Smiley]

Where???
check out Serotta dealers in BC he is listed as a Fit Guru there

[TMB]

check out Serotta dealers in BC he is listed as a Fit Guru there

Interesting.

I didn't know that there was a Serotta dealer in BC - I learned something today.

I am surprised by that particular store though.

I have known that store for 30 years and it has an MTB driven shop as long as I've ever known it.

Maybe things are a'changing.

I will have to check it out next time I'm in town.

Thx.

[SamIAm]

This forum has had a rocky winter but with better weather and no political threads it should improve. I hope we just have a minor misunderstanding and RPS wan't really banned over that exchange.

+1

I for one am thrilled with the absence of the political threads. I also like the no nonsense approach to moderation that SoCalSteve is serving up. One other thing I know is that RPS is a solid contributor here and Pete is a prince of a man so I am sure all will be well.

[Elefantino]

William is on Single Secret Probation.

I am on Double and I don't even post pictures ????
I do.

http://messengerpuppet.blogharbor.com/_photos/animalhouse547.sized.jpeg

[znfdl]

Are you suggesting Pete could drink too much vino and make poor decisions?

Only poor decisions on the wine that he might drink......

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I don't want to spread rumors since I don't follow classifieds at all. . . .

So why are you starting this thread?

BBD http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/115.gif

[rugbysecondrow]

This forum has had a rocky winter but with better weather and no political threads it should improve. I hope we just have a minor misunderstanding and RPS wan't really banned over that exchange.


Oddly enough, the discussion about whether or not to have political threads were more contentious than the political threads themselves.

Even more odd is how many people who read the political threads, then now complain about them.

Like Smiley said, it is a just a forum...but it seems a different forum in April than it was in October.

[Tobias]

+1

I for one am thrilled with the absence of the political threads. I also like the no nonsense approach to moderation that SoCalSteve is serving up. One other thing I know is that RPS is a solid contributor here and Pete is a prince of a man so I am sure all will be well.
That assumes the damage is reversible, that anyone that got locked out would want to come back and participate as if nothing had happened, or as if moderators were doing him a favor by letting him participate again. I wouldn’t, and doubt many members would either. I’d just want to get even.

I think moderators need to understand that once they pull the trigger it’s likely for good. Once a line is crossed it can’t always be uncrossed. And maybe that’s exactly what Serotta wanted all along.

[Tobias]

So why are you starting this thread?

BBD http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/115.gif
And how exactly is this thread the same as starting a rumor? Have you lost your mind?

This thread is about RPS getting banned (and I believe that's a fact) for asking Dave why he replaced a 30T chainring with a 28T chainring, and Pete reprimanding Rick for doing so. That's piss poor no matter how I look at it.

If we can't ask another member why they set their bikes the way they do then what the hell is this forum about? Are we now limited to just praising Serotta bikes? Give me a break.

If you expect me or others to cow down to moderators you have something coming. You can ban me too if you want but I'm not going to take bullying from moderators -- period. I'd rather not participate than have threats over my head.

[Louis]

It appears that I have not been banned, but if I am to be for calling a spade a spade, then so be it.

There is no doubt that things have changed around here recently (and not for the better IMO) and folks who express the most mild disagreement (e.g. my very bland comment that I thought the the "Ratings List" was not a good thing) are slapped down hard.

I can only hope that the folks who truly control things here will eventually realize that the pendulum has swung too far into the "Clamp Down" mode and in the long run it will recenter.

Louis

[BumbleBeeDave]

No "threat" was made here and none was intended. I cannot speak for the other moderators but I can speak for myself--and I will. There's intelligent discussion--and there's the baiting, personal attacks, and rumormongering that have characterized so many of the threads here over the past few years that involve politics, religion, or other obviously controversial subjects. What even remotely intelligent forum member could not know that posting opinionated comments about Obama, Bush, abortion, the Middle East, global warming, or the war in Iraq/Afghanistan would not lead to a flamefest? Give you a break? . . . No, you give me a break, buddy!

For way too long the management has tried to make everybody happy--and that's impossible. The management has also tolerated so much whining and complaining about every little thing that at times I have felt as if Job has been reincarnated. There have been many, many discussions among moderators about how to do the most good for the most people here, including Ben Serotta, who pays the bills--and still pays the bills despite the posting of volumes of threads that just plain make his company look bad and a volume of personally insulting comments the one time he tried to actively contribute by posting regularly.

I have not lost my mind. But I have most definitely lost my patience with threads like this one that seem to be started only to argue about moderator decisions and moan about how unfair we are to this forum member or that forum member. In case you have been living in a cave the past few months, the forum management has decided to try some new things to clean the place up and bring it back closer to it's original theme of intelligent cycling discussion.

With any major change in an organization there comes a period of readjustment as new rules and methods are fine-tuned and a new equilibrium is reached. Some members like it. Some don't. Some members stay. Some decide they would rather go elsewhere. Some are missed when they leave. Some are not. Other voices take their place. This same thing has happened in the past. The forum is still here. There is still intelligent cycling-related discussion going on. That's not a rumor. It's a fact.

We do the best we can. We try really hard to do it right. We get far more grief than credit. I'm tired of listening to people complain.

BBD



And how exactly is this thread the same as starting a rumor? Have you lost your mind?

This thread is about RPS getting banned (and I believe that's a fact) for asking Dave why he replaced a 30T chainring with a 28T chainring, and Pete reprimanding Rick for doing so. That's piss poor no matter how I look at it.

If we can't ask another member why they set their bikes the way they do then what the hell is this forum about? Are we now limited to just praising Serotta bikes? Give me a break.

If you expect me or others to cow down to moderators you have something coming. You can ban me too if you want but I'm not going to take bullying from moderators -- period. I'd rather not participate than have threats over my head.

[Elefantino]

No "threat" was made here and none was intended. I cannot speak for the other moderators but I can speak for myself--and I will. There's intelligent discussion--and there's the baiting, personal attacks, and rumormongering that have characterized so many of the threads here over the past few years that involve politics, religion, or other obviously controversial subjects. What even remotely intelligent forum member could not know that posting opinionated comments about Obama, Bush, abortion, the Middle East, global warming, or the war in Iraq/Afghanistan would not lead to a flamefest? Give you a break? . . . No, you give me a break, buddy!

For way too long the management has tried to make everybody happy--and that's impossible. The management has also tolerated so much whining and complaining about every little thing that at times I have felt as if Job has been reincarnated. There have been many, many discussions among moderators about how to do the most good for the most people here, including Ben Serotta, who pays the bills--and still pays the bills despite the posting of volumes of threads that just plain make his company look bad and a volume of personally insulting comments the one time he tried to actively contribute by posting regularly.

I have not lost my mind. But I have most definitely lost my patience with threads like this one that seem to be started only to argue about moderator decisions and moan about how unfair we are to this forum member or that forum member. In case you have been living in a cave the past few months, the forum management has decided to try some new things to clean the place up and bring it back closer to it's original theme of intelligent cycling discussion.

With any major change in an organization there comes a period of readjustment as new rules and methods are fine-tuned and a new equilibrium is reached. Some members like it. Some don't. Some members stay. Some decide they would rather go elsewhere. Some are missed when they leave. Some are not. Other voices take their place. This same thing has happened in the past. The forum is still here. There is still intelligent cycling-related discussion going on. That's not a rumor. It's a fact.

We do the best we can. We try really hard to do it right. We get far more grief than credit. I'm tired of listening to people complain.

BBD
Word(s).

[rugbysecondrow]

BBD, you are going to think what you want regardless, so I edited my original post.

[Louis]

The vibe I've gotten recently from the Mods is that they're going to do whatever they want to do and if someone doesn't like that tough, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I think that's unfortunate and does not bode well for the future.

[Lifelover]

Real Housewives of the Serotta Forum!

[Louis]

Real Housewives of the Serotta Forum!

Better watch it, name calling may get you banned ;)

[Jack Brunk]

Personally I think if you have issues here then you should move on. Pete, Dave, Bruce, Keith and Steve thank you for the great job you guys are doing.

[jbrainin]

There are far too many self-righteous people here who seem to think it is their god-given right to act however they wish. They might be well served to follow the lead of a previous batch of disgruntled forumites and set out to create a forum they can run to their own liking. That didn't turn out to badly, ATMO.

[Kirk007]

For way too long the management has tried to make everybody happy--and that's impossible. The management has also tolerated so much whining and complaining about every little thing that at times I have felt as if Job has been reincarnated. There have been many, many discussions among moderators about how to do the most good for the most people here, including Ben Serotta, who pays the bills--and still pays the bills despite the posting of volumes of threads that just plain make his company look bad and a volume of personally insulting comments the one time he tried to actively contribute by posting regularly.

I have not lost my mind. But I have most definitely lost my patience with threads like this one that seem to be started only to argue about moderator decisions and moan about how unfair we are to this forum member or that forum member. In case you have been living in a cave the past few months, the forum management has decided to try some new things to clean the place up and bring it back closer to it's original theme of intelligent cycling discussion.

With any major change in an organization there comes a period of readjustment as new rules and methods are fine-tuned and a new equilibrium is reached. Some members like it. Some don't. Some members stay. Some decide they would rather go elsewhere. Some are missed when they leave. Some are not. Other voices take their place. This same thing has happened in the past. The forum is still here. There is still intelligent cycling-related discussion going on. That's not a rumor. It's a fact.

We do the best we can. We try really hard to do it right. We get far more grief than credit. I'm tired of listening to people complain.

BBD
You and the mods have a thankless job, but then again, y'all agreed to it.

I said it earlier and I'll say it again because I think it is important and you are now seeing why: when changing the rules in a place where folks, rightly or wrongly feel invested, openness and transparency are important. The folks here are by and large adults. By and large successful. By and large get offended when treated in a manner that comes across as heavy handed and patronizing.

Process is important. In fact I would argue that in this case it is much more important than the end result. I would guess that folks in the position to purchase Serottas are accustomed to be treated with a certain measure of respect, consistency and predictability.

And yes, folks have left before, and other voices have replaced them. But with each purge, whether voluntary, involuntary or some of both, the discussion gets lets vibrant. We've both been here long enough to notice the changes and we both know the level of knowledge that has departed and not returned.

I've often disagreed with Tobias in the past but I certainly understand the frustration expressed. Whereas I always thought that the tolerance that used to characterize this place reflected well on Serotta, I find the current course of treatment worse than the disease. For Serotta's sake, if nothing else, I hope an equilibrium is found.

[Louis]

That didn't turn out to badly

Not to re-hash the past yet again, but since you bring it up, do you really think this place is better without the ATMO crew? Sure, they had a cool-kids table (I was certainly not a member) but nearly every cafeteria has one and I had no problems with that. They brought spice to the place and this forum is poorer without them. Just lumbering along is not necessarily too badly, but I'd like to think that we want more than just someplace to hock our old wheels and enquire about what chain lube is the best.

Louis

[Charles M]

I'm glad that folks that had major issues with what ever existed that they couldnt handle have made a place of their own.

That's the way things should work.



Personally I think if you have issues here then you should move on. Pete, Dave, Bruce, Keith and Steve thank you for the great job you guys are doing.




Well Said.

[Lincoln]

No "threat" was made here and none was intended. I cannot speak for the other moderators but I can speak for myself--and I will. There's intelligent discussion--and there's the baiting, personal attacks, and rumormongering that have characterized so many of the threads here over the past few years that involve politics, religion, or other obviously controversial subjects. What even remotely intelligent forum member could not know that posting opinionated comments about Obama, Bush, abortion, the Middle East, global warming, or the war in Iraq/Afghanistan would not lead to a flamefest? Give you a break? . . . No, you give me a break, buddy!

For way too long the management has tried to make everybody happy--and that's impossible. The management has also tolerated so much whining and complaining about every little thing that at times I have felt as if Job has been reincarnated. There have been many, many discussions among moderators about how to do the most good for the most people here, including Ben Serotta, who pays the bills--and still pays the bills despite the posting of volumes of threads that just plain make his company look bad and a volume of personally insulting comments the one time he tried to actively contribute by posting regularly.

I have not lost my mind. But I have most definitely lost my patience with threads like this one that seem to be started only to argue about moderator decisions and moan about how unfair we are to this forum member or that forum member. In case you have been living in a cave the past few months, the forum management has decided to try some new things to clean the place up and bring it back closer to it's original theme of intelligent cycling discussion.

With any major change in an organization there comes a period of readjustment as new rules and methods are fine-tuned and a new equilibrium is reached. Some members like it. Some don't. Some members stay. Some decide they would rather go elsewhere. Some are missed when they leave. Some are not. Other voices take their place. This same thing has happened in the past. The forum is still here. There is still intelligent cycling-related discussion going on. That's not a rumor. It's a fact.

We do the best we can. We try really hard to do it right. We get far more grief than credit. I'm tired of listening to people complain.

BBD

Actually, Dave, you may have lost your mind.

Your snide comment to Tobias using a snippet of a quote was uncalled for. Even worse, you either didn't follow the thread closely or intentionally took the quote out of context. The line you quoted was not what he started the thread about but was in reference to another issue with the moderating (that someone else brought up) and Tobias essentially said he wasn't going to spread rumors about it because he wasn't familiar with the situation.

The heavy-handed moderating is causing enough problems. The lack of transparency, i.e. closing threads, erasing threads and banning people without clear and public posting as to what happened and why is only making the situation worse. No one knows where the line is and many feel that the line is moving on a daily basis. That's a good recipe for rumor, paranoia and dissent.

Saying that everything is fine because some people go and some come is not a good argument. The quality of discussion and conduct here is still better than most places on the interweb but the trend has been on a steady downward trajectory for several years.

If you are that tired and frustrated with moderating then don't do it. It would be better to let someone else try than to keep doing it with a crappy attitude.

[Charles M]

I would add to it that PM's and discussion generally are the sign of someone looking to improve things. Rants less so.

[Jack Brunk]

Actually, Dave, you may have lost your mind.

Your snide comment to Tobias using a snippet of a quote was uncalled for. Even worse, you either didn't follow the thread closely or intentionally took the quote out of context. The line you quoted was not what he started the thread about but was in reference to another issue with the moderating (that someone else brought up) and Tobias essentially said he wasn't going to spread rumors about it because he wasn't familiar with the situation.

The heavy-handed moderating is causing enough problems. The lack of transparency, i.e. closing threads, erasing threads and banning people without clear and public posting as to what happened and why is only making the situation worse. No one knows where the line is and many feel that the line is moving on a daily basis. That's a good recipe for rumor, paranoia and dissent.

Saying that everything is fine because some people go and some come is not a good argument. The quality of discussion and conduct here is still better than most places on the interweb but the trend has been on a steady downward trajectory for several years.

If you are that tired and frustrated with moderating then don't do it. It would be better to let someone else try than to keep doing it with a crappy attitude.
If you think that this one instance was the reason then your missing what's been going on. This has been in the works for months by a handful of people who frankly think their smarter than most on this board and it's gotten really old. Don't blame Dave or any other moderator. This is a bike forum for christ sake not a think tank. Let's get back to bikes. :beer:

[Louis]

I would add to it that PM's and discussion generally are the sign of someone looking to improve things. Rants less so.

Doing things in secret and Mods sending PM to folks threatening them and telling them to change posts or else because of the most mild disagreement is not a sign of a healthy forum. Being able to justify your decisions for all to see in rational terms that make sense is a sign of a healthy, not an arbitrary decision making process.

BTW, my spell-check offers "Putsch" when it comes across your screen name. Let's hope it does not come to that :p

[rugbysecondrow]

There are far too many self-righteous people here who seem to think it is their god-given right to act however they wish. They might be well served to follow the lead of a previous batch of disgruntled forumites and set out to create a forum they can run to their own liking. That didn't turn out to badly, ATMO.

This is not terribly accurate. Almost everybody is well behaved here. This seems to be an instance where if it is repeated enough times (no matter how inaccurate), people take is as fact.

In addition, should this really be an exclusionary forum where people just take their ideas and leave whenever ubrupt changes are made? Is that really the best solution?

[Marcusaurelius]

I second bikes comment and think the moderators do a great job. I do think that without the moderators the forum would sink into a mire of murky politics.

I think questoning the moderators about someone getting banned is a little silly when no real facts are known--just an opinion about what what was said on thread--oddly enough the opinion differs substanially from what I read. I don't why comments can't be cordial instead of abrasive and combative.

[rugbysecondrow]

If you think that this one instance was the reason then your missing what's been going on. This has been in the works for months by a handful of people who frankly think their smarter than most on this board and it's gotten really old. Don't blame Dave or any other moderator. This is a bike forum for christ sake not a think tank. Let's get back to bikes. :beer:


There is a saying that is appropriate for this, "you can be right in a wrong way".

I still find it odd that so many people are bothered by conversations they supposedly care so little about.

[jbrainin]

Not to re-hash the past yet again, but since you bring it up, do you really think this place is better without the ATMO crew? Sure, they had a cool-kids table (I was certainly not a member) but nearly every cafeteria has one and I had no problems with that. They brought spice to the place and this forum is poorer without them.

Yes. I think that both places are doing just fine as is. I think that there were simply irreconcilable differences with the ATMO crew, and things unfolded as they had to. I respect what they have created and hope that anyone else here who is so unhappy with the way things are run would have the integrity to follow their example and put up their time and $ to create a forum of their own.

Just lumbering one is not necessarily too badly, but I'd like to think that we want more than just someplace to hock our old wheels and enquire about what chain lube is the best.

Louis

Compare the threads here with the threads there. Exactly how many political threads have appeared there in the past three months? I don't think you need more than one hand to count them.

They don't slavishly adhere to things cycling (although they do come pretty damned close) but when they address other things they almost always involve craft in some manner or other.

There's worse things than discussing what chain lube is best. Threads like this are one of those things.

[Jack Brunk]

Doing things in secret and Mods sending PM to folks threatening them and telling them to change posts or else because of the most mild disagreement is not a sign of a healthy forum. Being able to justify your decisions for all to see in rational terms that make sense is a sign of a healthy, not an arbitrary decision making process.

BTW, my spell-check offers "Putsch" when it comes across your screen name. Let's hope it does not come to that :p
Really? are you serious?
I don't think there's too many people including you Louis who could even come close to wearing Pez's jock strap when it comes to bikes. You won't look pretty on this one.

[Louis]

Really? are you serious?

Yes, I am serious, it has happened. Happened to me just yesterday.

I don't think there's too many people including you Louis who could even come close to wearing Pez's jock strap when it comes to bikes. You won't look pretty on this one.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion. The one who has the most pretty bikes or is the fastest is right? (I'm not sure what category you're putting Pez in and I don't know the guy.) If that's the criterion we're going to use, then I guess we might as well stop talking right now, because that's not going to get us very far.

[Lifelover]

Will the first mod that wakes up not only lock this down but delete it from existence!

[Louis]

There's worse things than discussing what chain lube is best. Threads like this are one of those things.

As much as I dislike navel-gazing, I think a little introspection every now and then is a healthy thing. However, it can also be painful.

Take care.
Louis

[Ahneida Ride]

Will the first mod that wakes up not only lock this down but delete it from existence!

Please ???? let's calm down a bit ? :banana:

[Jack Brunk]

Yes, I am serious, it has happened. Happened to me just yesterday.



I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion. The one who has the most pretty bikes or is the fastest is right? (I'm not sure what category you're putting Pez in and I don't know the guy.) If that's the criterion we're going to use, then I guess we might as well stop talking right now, because that's not going to get us very far.
It's a bike forum Louis. Bikes are the discussion. No pretty bikes don't win. He has a lot of knowledge about bikes. No criteria here just good insight on what makes this obsession that WE all have more interesting.

[Tobias]

No "threat" was made here and none was intended. I cannot speak for the other moderators but I can speak for myself--and I will. There's intelligent discussion--and there's the baiting, personal attacks, and rumormongering that have characterized so many of the threads here over the past few years that involve politics, religion, or other obviously controversial subjects. What even remotely intelligent forum member could not know that posting opinionated comments about Obama, Bush, abortion, the Middle East, global warming, or the war in Iraq/Afghanistan would not lead to a flamefest? Give you a break? . . . No, you give me a break, buddy!

For way too long the management has tried to make everybody happy--and that's impossible. The management has also tolerated so much whining and complaining about every little thing that at times I have felt as if Job has been reincarnated. There have been many, many discussions among moderators about how to do the most good for the most people here, including Ben Serotta, who pays the bills--and still pays the bills despite the posting of volumes of threads that just plain make his company look bad and a volume of personally insulting comments the one time he tried to actively contribute by posting regularly.

I have not lost my mind. But I have most definitely lost my patience with threads like this one that seem to be started only to argue about moderator decisions and moan about how unfair we are to this forum member or that forum member. In case you have been living in a cave the past few months, the forum management has decided to try some new things to clean the place up and bring it back closer to it's original theme of intelligent cycling discussion.

With any major change in an organization there comes a period of readjustment as new rules and methods are fine-tuned and a new equilibrium is reached. Some members like it. Some don't. Some members stay. Some decide they would rather go elsewhere. Some are missed when they leave. Some are not. Other voices take their place. This same thing has happened in the past. The forum is still here. There is still intelligent cycling-related discussion going on. That's not a rumor. It's a fact.

We do the best we can. We try really hard to do it right. We get far more grief than credit. I'm tired of listening to people complain.

BBD
Don’t turn your freaking mess on me by shifting subjects. I have not questioned any decisions to ban politics, religion, or uncivil behavior in any way whatsoever. And neither did RPS, did he? If you have a beef with others on those topics don’t take it out on us.

Don’t make this about what it is not in an absurd attempt to draw attention in a different direction or to gain sympathy.

Personally I think you are a moron if you think that’s what I’m questioning. Pete’s rant directed at me and RPS was due solely to a bike gearing question. It had absolutely nothing to do with politics, religion, Obama, or any of your other lame excuses. Get over yourselves.

And to be perfectly clear, just because Serotta pays the freaking bills doesn’t give anyone in control of the forum rights beyond what is legal. As an example to show there are real limits, if moderators wanted to show bias against blacks the fact that you pay the bills doesn’t legally excuse you. Likewise if you tarnish someone’s reputation you are also liable. This idea that you can do anything you want is getting really old. Paying bills isn’t the same as a blank check.

And for what it’s worth, it’s absolutely sickening to see how quickly a few empowered people started to abuse their newly found authority in the name of law-and-order.

On second thought screw the forum, I have better things to do.

[Louis]

+1

And for what it’s worth, it’s absolutely sickening to see how quickly a few empowered people started to abuse their newly found authority in the name of law-and-order.



As I said above, I'm hoping things moderate.

On second thought screw the forum, I have better things to do.

[Lincoln]

Really? are you serious?
I don't think there's too many people including you Louis who could even come close to wearing Pez's jock strap when it comes to bikes. You won't look pretty on this one.

Jack, this discussion is about how to run a forum, specific bike knowledge (real or perceived) has nothing to do with "looking pretty" on this one.

Jocks aren't recommended when riding a bike. Maybe yours is causing a little chafing?

[mgm777]

On second thought screw the forum, I have better things to do.

Good riddance!

[Louis]

Good riddance!

Cheap shot!

[mgm777]

Cheap shot!

Just my opinion.

[Louis]

Just my opinion.

Perhaps, and everyone is entitled to his or her own, but insulting a guy in that manner after he leaves the room is hardly the way to promote a conversation that's already struggling to stay productive.

[Jack Brunk]

Jack, this discussion is about how to run a forum, specific bike knowledge (real or perceived) has nothing to do with "looking pretty" on this one.

Jocks aren't recommended when riding a bike. Maybe yours is causing a little chafing?
Yes your right about the chafing and it wasn't chafing towards you. Most of the members knew what I was saying. Again it's a bike forum nothing else. The Mods know that.

[jbrainin]

As much as I dislike navel-gazing, I think a little introspection every now and then is a healthy thing. However, it can also be painful.

Take care.
Louis

Introspection is fine. But the original post was in no way introspective. It was hostile in phrasing and aggressive in intent, like too much of what has been causing problems here over the past few months.

[Kirk007]

Y Again it's a bike forum nothing else. The Mods know that.

It used to be so much more. There used to be a level of tolerance, good will and information sharing on life that made it special, much more than a bike forum. Folks shared their troubles, their grief, their concerns for their kids; they offered and received advice about life well beyond bikes. We came to know one another and as we discussed life. Of course discussions at times broadened to other life issues like current events and even politics. Yes at times it got messy; at times heated but rarely was there true ill will. Certainly not at the level that is currently being exhibited.

That folks are as angry as Tobias, and that folks no longer feel welcome here, is too bad. It didn't need to turn out this way, but I think the genie is out of the bottle and it will be difficult putting it back in. So I think you are right, its now just another bike forum.

[Lincoln]

Yes your right about the chafing and it wasn't chafing towards you. Most of the members knew what I was saying. Again it's a bike forum nothing else. The Mods know that.

The chafing comment was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Just trying to bring a little levity to the discussion.

I disagree, it's not just "a bike forum" but it is headed that way and that's not a good thing. It's a small, close knit and occasionally dysfunctional community of bicyclists who tend to have interesting, respectful and intelligent conversations on a variety of topics and often help each other in a lot of different ways.

[mgm777]

Perhaps, and everyone is entitled to his or her own, but insulting a guy in that manner after he leaves the room is hardly the way to promote a conversation that's already struggling to stay productive.

Insult? I don't think so. I was simply expressing my opinion of his departing remarks (his opinon).

[Lincoln]

Insult? I don't think so. I was simply expressing my opinion of his departing remarks (his opinon).
:rolleyes:

[Gothard]

There is no doubt that things have changed around here recently (and not for the better IMO) and folks who express the most mild disagreement (e.g. my very bland comment that I thought the the "Ratings List" was not a good thing) are slapped down hard.

I can only hope that the folks who truly control things here will eventually realize that the pendulum has swung too far into the "Clamp Down" mode and in the long run it will recenter.

The vibe I've gotten recently from the Mods is that they're going to do whatever they want to do and if someone doesn't like that tough, don't let the door hit you on the way out. I think that's unfortunate and does not bode well for the future.

Louis

Fully agree.

I come here for the entertainement value. Throw in 3 paragraph posts, veiled threats and "He is a bigger cyclist than you, so hush up" and I am no longer interested.
And I hate it when mods throw someone under the train and do not openly explain why.

Out for a ride.

[jpw]

Perhaps there should be an upper age limit on forum membership? Those who 'talk too much and cycle too little' clearly have too much time and energy on their typing hands. Get out there and work it off.

[William]

It used to be so much more. There used to be a level of tolerance, good will and information sharing on life that made it special, much more than a bike forum. Folks shared their troubles, their grief, their concerns for their kids; they offered and received advice about life well beyond bikes. We came to know one another and as we discussed life. Of course discussions at times broadened to other life issues like current events and even politics. Yes at times it got messy; at times heated but rarely was there true ill will. Certainly not at the level that is currently being exhibited.

That folks are as angry as Tobias, and that folks no longer feel welcome here, is too bad. It didn't need to turn out this way, but I think the genie is out of the bottle and it will be difficult putting it back in. So I think you are right, its now just another bike forum.


I have to side with Kirk on this one. This place has always been more then just a "Bike Forum". That's what makes it special compared to the plethora of other "just bike" forums out there. Jack, when you were diagnosed there was an outpouring of well wishes and advice from folks that went beyond just bike. When my appendix burst, I had PM's, e-mails, letters, and cards sent to me wishing me well. That went beyond just bike. When people have had questions about life events, children, spouses, sickness, and home, there has always been a wealth of sharing that has made this place special. "Bike" has been the glue that bonds us together, but it's not what runs or dictates our lives. If this place is to become "Bike only", put it in line with the rest of the bike forums that are places where the same questions get asked over and over by a revolving door of members who share nothing but Shimano vs Campy, or tubular vs clincher debates.

As far as moderator conduct? First, don't fix what isn't broken. This place has run well up until recently when the splitting of the forums occurred. The politics is another issue that until recently hasn't been an issue here. But that has more to do with individuals than the forum structure as a whole. IMO, transparency is key. Having threads disappear, people being banned, behind the scenes, and supposed changing/deleting of text is another sure way to kill off participation as well as develop a group of intolerant “Yes men” to follow them around. I mod a martial arts forum…let me tell you folks something, you haven’t seen anything like the bickering and squabbling that goes on about style vs. style or technique vs technique threads. Nothing gums up a forum like 16 year old keyboard warriors bickering.

The point to my rant here:
Leave it alone.
Publically warn those getting out of line, then suspend or ban if needed.
Do not delete threads without warning unless blatantly offensive.
Do not change text (or try to force others to do so) unless blatantly offensive.
Participation is what makes the forum work regardless of who owns it….don’t stifle participation.
Transparency is key. Heavy handed behind the scenes moderating is a fast track to killing of free discussion.
Moderation in a moderator is key.

IMO of course.
William

[Bruce K]

Waking up and finding this is not a good start to the day.

This has gotten so far out of hand and SO unproductive. :crap:

If someone gets banned it is usually for a reason beyond one single post. Generally, if someone gets banned, they can contact the Moderators and try to resolve the issue an get themselves unbanned at least one time.

I think it's time to move on from this particular discussion and go to work, go ride bikes, whatever we need to do to chill a bit.

I am locking this one for now so anyone interested can read for an hour or so and then I plan to delete it (or if I can't get to it during my school day hopefully one of the other guys will dump it).

This is just not needed.

BK

[Pete Serotta]

Keep in mind that it is my responsibility for bad things happening here. The other moderators should not be blamed. In fact I will offer the following, if anyone wants, start a POLL and vote on me leaving... somewhat like the TV program.

Vote me off - -I am fine with that, I assure you. My sole purpose is to help create an environment that favors the wants and desires of "MOST" and to foster the SEROTTA brand and cycling in general. Yes I do make mistakes and have learned much for the forum, as well as made some wonderful friends.

I am truly only interested in Serotta, making friends, having wonderful rides and times, and helping others. (But I do not like bullies who hide behind a key board and an ID>..)


As to having to justify why someone is banned and not banned, or telling everyone why someone was banned and then throwing it up to a vote is beyond what I have an interest in. I would rather be riding and spending time with friends.

"Putsch" :confused: :confused:

"Being able to justify your decisions for all to see in rational terms that make sense is a sign of a healthy, not an arbitrary decision making process" Yeah not in the US have a seen this in any public gathering or organization. It would be nice but - where does this happen? I would like to join.

Justifying and getting agreement from all is great idea- but history (as well as the US culture) shows that to be an honorable goal that has not been able to be implemented.

Disagreement is part of life, as are differing opinions. That is what made the forum into what it was and hopefully is.

We now have a few who have been very vocal and also attacking others. If my saying to RPS about DAVE was an attack on him - wow..... :confused: :confused:

Add to this I need to tell all that I have a moderator hat on or not :confused: :confused:

I assure you I never threaten....right or wrong I have never been one of that mode. Yes i do take action and sometimes not diplomatic or ever correct but I usually think LONG AND HARD before taking it - as in RPS and now TOBIAS - . And by the way if they want to discuss they can email me and hopefully we can then discuss in a business manner and work thru our differences. (or at least attempt to).

Why would I want to single out to the forum that RPS that he was banned? How does that benefit anyone?

I try to not take things personal (and sometimes fall short of this) but it is only a forum as they say and there are plenty of them....

My wish is to keep THE FRIENDS I HAVE MADE HERE,

[jpw]

Perhaps people should take their disagreements 'outside', which here would mean to use private messaging to settle their 'issues'. I suspect the disagreement would evaporate if it could only continue in private - a 'performance' requires an audience.

[William]

Perhaps people should take their disagreements 'outside', which here would mean to use private messaging to settle their 'issues'. I suspect the disagreement would evaporate if it could only continue in private - a 'performance' requires an audience.


JPW,

You've just exceeded your posting quota for the day. Please go for a ride and come back tomorrow.

;) :)




William

[jpw]

JPW,

You've just exceeded your posting quota for the day. Please go for a ride and come back tomorrow.

;) :)


William


True,...just waiting for the roads to dry a little more before I head out. :beer:

Jason

[Lincoln]

NO problem Tobias I will accommodate you

Sorry it did not work out for you.



PETE

Really? Please tell me you didn't ban him for that? He was obviously mad and frustrated and he had already removed himself from the conversation. Let him continue to cool off on his own maybe he would have come back in a day or week or month in constructive mood.

[Louis]

Pete, in some sense we are all responsible for what has been happening recently, but in no way are you anywhere near the top of the list of those responsible for the recent mess.

I think we all know how difficult it must be trying to control this herd of cats and appreciate your efforts. You do this because of your love for cycling, for Serotta, and yes, the friends we meet and great things that have come to us via the forum. Thanks for all your effort - I assume that without some form of moderation, without you, the forum could not exist. We're all trying to figure out how to work through this and we can all hope for the best.

Keep in mind that it is my responsibility for bad things happening here. The other moderators should not be blamed. .....

Vote me off - -I am fine with that, I assure you.




Putsch" :confused: :confused:

A lame attempt at a joke. When I ran a spell check on my post it flagged "PezTech" and suggest est putsch instead. I thought that was ironic given what has been happening recently so I decided to mention it.

[gone]

Like several others here, I moderate a forum on a topic so innocent you couldn't even imagine people getting banned and yet they do. Moderating has to be one of the most thankless unpaid jobs in the world and I for one appreciate anyone who is willing to step up and take the time to do it. I also participate in several other forums besides this one and have seen a wide variety of moderating styles from "anything goes" to someone being banned for posting "gee, that seems like kind of a dumb question". The one constant across all of them is this: no matter what the moderator does or how they do it there will be people who think they did the wrong thing.

Personally, I don't think it should be a democracy. Opening every moderating decision to debate by the masses turns the forum into a debating society when we should be talking about bikes. This is Serotta's house, they make the rules. The rules are generally vague and it is left to unpaid volunteers to enforce those rules. There's a lot of "gray area" that is open to interpretation and, being people, there's variation in how the moderators interpret and enforce the rules. I'm cool with that.

Oh, and by the way, thanks Pete and all the moderators! :beer:

[Charles M]

Doing things in secret and Mods sending PM to folks threatening them and telling them to change posts or else because of the most mild disagreement is not a sign of a healthy forum. Being able to justify your decisions for all to see in rational terms that make sense is a sign of a healthy, not an arbitrary decision making process.

BTW, my spell-check offers "Putsch" when it comes across your screen name. Let's hope it does not come to that :p

Lol, now I had to search it too... I guess I could be considered revolt-"ing"... (Lol meaning I took it as a joke...)



My gripe here is that i think you have simply taken me out of context/ added some flavor to what I've said.


I agree, threats because of the most mild disagreement would be unwise. But that's what I'm saying.


I mean both members and Mods can clarify things with a PM in a way that doesn't make this whole place spiral down to an arguement that my 6 year old would (and frankly should) lose interest in. ;)

[Smiley]

what did I miss? Who's still with us, who is gone, Tobias and RPS and who else? Did Anhieda Ride get banned yet, I am getting tired of that Bra Wrap story anyway :)

[Charles M]

You could be on to something there...


Lets Ban Ray and charge him a 10 roll re-up :banana:

[Kevan]

I figure having survived sharing my sordid relationship with Sandy with everyone here; I’m pretty much safe in anything I want to say.

[fiamme red]

Lets Ban Ray and charge him a 10 roll re-up :banana:So you're advocating a Ray-Ban? :)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2725/4410310281_7fa442591e_o.jpg

[rugbysecondrow]

Personally, I don't think it should be a democracy. Opening every moderating decision to debate by the masses turns the forum into a debating society when we should be talking about bikes. This is Serotta's house, they make the rules. The rules are generally vague and it is left to unpaid volunteers to enforce those rules. There's a lot of "gray area" that is open to interpretation and, being people, there's variation in how the moderators interpret and enforce the rules. I'm cool with that.

Oh, and by the way, thanks Pete and all the moderators! :beer:


I agree 100% With what you wrote above, especially in bold. Pete made the balls and strikes analogy of an Umpire...we might not like it, but we agreed to play so we accept the rules of the game. We don't have to walk up to the batters box though.

One suggestion, any future changes to the forum, can you make them in June or July when everybody will be outside more and less tuned in? Let them see the changes when they come back in October. :beer:

[William]

Umpire Pete!! What call got these guys going?????

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1237394482_japanese-baseball-team-leg-.gif



;) :)

William

[OtayBW]

Keep in mind that it is my responsibility for bad things happening here. The other moderators should not be blamed.I will not weigh into all this except to say that I do not believe this particular statement (well, I mean the first part...EDIT: I guess I mean the second part, too...ah, nevermind).

I will say that abrupt suspensions for anything other than the most 'flagrant foul' are difficult for a lot of people to swallow - perhaps rightly so. One thing that might help would be to set up some kind of clearcut infraction system. ***** does happen as we've seen over the last 30 days. Call someone a moron (or similar), get dinged one point. Blatant argumentative or rude behavior, ding. Maybe ~3 points and you go to Time Out for a while. Perhaps it sounds childish, but no more so than all this carrying on.

[jimp1234]

ARTHUR:
Each evening, from December to December,
Before you drift to sleep upon your cot,
Think back on all the tales that you remember
Of Camelot.
Ask ev'ry person if he's heard the story,
And tell it strong and clear if he has not,
That once there was a fleeting wisp of glory
Called Camelot.
Camelot! Camelot!
Now say it out with pride and joy!

TOM:
Camelot! Camelot!

ARTHUR:
Yes, Camelot, my boy!
Where once it never rained till after sundown,
By eight a.m. the morning fog had flown...
Don't let it be forgot
That once there was a spot
For one brief shining moment that was known
As Camelot.

[rounder]

I have to side with Kirk on this one. This place has always been more then just a "Bike Forum". That's what makes it special compared to the plethora of other "just bike" forums out there. Jack, when you were diagnosed there was an outpouring of well wishes and advice from folks that went beyond just bike. When my appendix burst, I had PM's, e-mails, letters, and cards sent to me wishing me well. That went beyond just bike. When people have had questions about life events, children, spouses, sickness, and home, there has always been a wealth of sharing that has made this place special. "Bike" has been the glue that bonds us together, but it's not what runs or dictates our lives. If this place is to become "Bike only", put it in line with the rest of the bike forums that are places where the same questions get asked over and over by a revolving door of members who share nothing but Shimano vs Campy, or tubular vs clincher debates.

As far as moderator conduct? First, don't fix what isn't broken. This place has run well up until recently when the splitting of the forums occurred. The politics is another issue that until recently hasn't been an issue here. But that has more to do with individuals than the forum structure as a whole. IMO, transparency is key. Having threads disappear, people being banned, behind the scenes, and supposed changing/deleting of text is another sure way to kill off participation as well as develop a group of intolerant “Yes men” to follow them around. I mod a martial arts forum…let me tell you folks something, you haven’t seen anything like the bickering and squabbling that goes on about style vs. style or technique vs technique threads. Nothing gums up a forum like 16 year old keyboard warriors bickering.

The point to my rant here:
Leave it alone.
Publically warn those getting out of line, then suspend or ban if needed.
Do not delete threads without warning unless blatantly offensive.
Do not change text (or try to force others to do so) unless blatantly offensive.
Participation is what makes the forum work regardless of who owns it….don’t stifle participation.
Transparency is key. Heavy handed behind the scenes moderating is a fast track to killing of free discussion.
Moderation in a moderator is key.

IMO of course.
William


I vote for William as spiritual leader of the forum and Pete as CEM (chief executive moderator). Also, i think the political stuff is just a sign of the times. Things out there are not fun these days for lots of people.

[Ahneida Ride]

Lets Ban Ray and charge him a 10 roll re-up :banana:

That's BraMail ! ;) :D :beer: :bike:

[bluesea]

...do you really think this place is better without the ATMO crew? Sure, they had a cool-kids table (I was certainly not a member) but nearly every cafeteria has one and I had no problems with that. They brought spice to the place and this forum is poorer without them...
Louis



The game that the ATMO crowd played out here, was much much more than a "cool-kid" thing. It was not only a ludicrous display of self-indulgence, but was also an alienating and uninviting factor that harmed the open and hospitable nature of what this forum used to be. The experience and knowledge base that was lost by their exit was definitely unfortunate but it was necessary.

[Birddog]

The game that the ATMO crowd played out here, was much much more than a "cool-kid" thing. It was not only a ludicrous display of self-indulgence, but was also an alienating and uninviting factor that harmed the open and hospitable nature of what this forum used to be. The experience and knowledge base that was lost by their exit was definitely unfortunate but it was necessary. Reply With Quote

I'm not sure it's fair to categorize the boys across the hall as the ATMO crowd, although I get the branding. That storm had been brewing for a couple of years and there were some hissy fits played out against Serotta and also individuals on this board during that time.
I liked most of the personalities as individuals although I will admit there was a sort of "collective condescension" that became the hallmark of some of the crowd. Not surprisingly, some of the "lesser" notables seemed to embrace the condescension more than those that may have had a right to.

As to this particular "fit". I don't get it. Just take a moment and think before you post, or better yet, pause and read your post before clicking it into gear. Perhaps it's good that I'm such a lousy and slow typer that I always re-read, and occasionally, I just just delete before any possible verbal virus is spread. It ain't worth the time IMO.
For now, let's just gather some firewood, break out the marshmallows and sing camp songs. It wouldn't hurt to pass around a bottle of red, tequila, or some single malt either.

Birddog

[fiamme red]

I'm not sure it's fair to categorize the boys across the hall as the ATMO crowd, although I get the branding. That storm had been brewing for a couple of years and there were some hissy fits played out against Serotta and also individuals on this board during that time.
I liked most of the personalities as individuals although I will admit there was a sort of "collective condescension" that became the hallmark of some of the crowd. Not surprisingly, some of the "lesser" notables seemed to embrace the condescension more than those that may have had a right to.As a matter of fact, there were two emigrations from the Serotta Forum. The first time, they left for the Frame Forum. When that failed, that crowd came back here, until things boiled over again (I think it had something to do with "Zen From Ben") and they left for the V-Salon.

[Pete Serotta]

One suggestion, any future changes to the forum, can you make them in June or July when everybody will be outside more and less tuned in? Let them see the changes when they come back in October. :beer:


One of the smartest suggestions i have read today for "cabin fever" is long ago history,, :)

[Pete Serotta]

It wouldn't hurt to pass around a bottle of red, tequila, or some single malt either.

Birddog

and invite some friends from across the hall....Grant, Darren, Steve Hampsten, and many other wonderful folks that posts over there

We can even send the bill to Too Tall!!! He will not mind.....

[Charles M]

So you're advocating a Ray-Ban? :)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2725/4410310281_7fa442591e_o.jpg


Qualy... a "RAY-Ban" with perks!

http://www.geeksunglasses.com/wp-content/gallery/443/katie-price-in-ray-ban-3211.jpg



As far as the VS guys leaving here to create a new home, I don't look at it as anything more that a parallel to the several builders who started at Serotta, built chops and branched out...

I see it as another offering and nothing more (or less). The people that want to keep bringing it up as anything but a nice alternative are the same folks that tend to bring down the conversation on other things too.


The principal movers involved have all moved on. The minions, not so much.

[William]

and invite some friends from across the hall....Grant, Darren, Steve Hampsten, and many other wonderful folks that posts over there

We can even send the bill to Too Tall!!! He will not mind.....

Thanks Pete!!!

I just ordered two cases of Red, and two cases of Ancestra and told them to put it on TooTall's tab. :beer:

I'm saving them for the Rhode Island Ramble!! :banana:




William

[fourflys]

Not surprisingly, some of the "lesser" notables seemed to embrace the condescension more than those that may have had a right to.


to expound on this for just a sec... I started an innocent thread over there about some tubing choices and while I got some great responses from the majority of the builders, I got plenty of smart-a$$/snide remarks from the hang-on's that want to sit at the cool-kids table...

So, I agree with you 100% and would love to see some (not most, just a few) of those guys come back over here as I value thier opinion even when I don't agree with it...

LONG LIVE PETE! :D

[fiamme red]

The principal movers involved have all moved on. The minions, not so much.I happened to look at the V-Salon yesterday (since palincss posted a link in my Kellogg/Murray thread to a post over there) and saw a thread (titled "vsalon" I think), started by one of those minions who used to hang out and troll on this forum, that made fun of the moderator situation here. So you're right, they haven't entirely moved on.

[fourflys]

I happened to look at the V-Salon yesterday (since palincss posted a link in my Kellogg/Murray thread to a post over there) and saw a thread (titled "vsalon" I think), started by one of those minions who used to hang out and troll on this forum, that made fun of the moderator situation here. So you're right, they haven't entirely moved on.

sometimes, I have no idea why I even go over there...

[Birddog]

I happened to look at the V-Salon yesterday (since palincss posted a link in my Kellogg/Murray thread to a post over there) and saw a thread (titled "vsalon" I think), started by one of those minions who used to hang out and troll on this forum, that made fun of the moderator situation here. So you're right, they haven't entirely moved on.

Hmmmmm, sounds like a case of SJS (small johnson syndrome).

[Ahneida Ride]

Hoping that Pez "Ray Bans" me !!!! WOW !!!!! :beer:

[ergott]

I happened to look at the V-Salon yesterday (since palincss posted a link in my Kellogg/Murray thread to a post over there) and saw a thread (titled "vsalon" I think), started by one of those minions who used to hang out and troll on this forum, that made fun of the moderator situation here. So you're right, they haven't entirely moved on.

Come on, laughter is the best medicine.

I'm one of the guys who made fun of the situation here. Problem is (and always will be) that some people take this way too seriously. I learned a while ago not to take anything I read personally.

If you really don't like someone, the best solution is to "ignore" them. If you don't know how to do this you click on their profile and click the ignore button (haven't had to do this yet).

The mods here are all doing the right thing. If I could at all be constructive, I would say they are being too nice about it. They should never have to explain themselves publicly. If I genuinely wanted to know why Pete or any other mod. did something (ban, delete, modify) I would start by shooting them a PM and asking. I wouldn't call them out publicly and ask them to justify themselves.

We are all guests here and should conform to the general atmosphere created here or perhaps suggest a reason to change things privately. You serve no one but yourself when you contribute what is not wanted. Find a more suitable soapbox.

Moderators control the content here and if the resulting content doesn't suit someone there are other places to be. I like this place enough to keep coming back. I try to offer as much as I take in. I do the same elsewhere. When I couldn't stand one forum and the way it was run I left on my own accord and didn't burn any bridges on the way out.

[ergott]

to expound on this for just a sec... I started an innocent thread over there about some tubing choices and while I got some great responses from the majority of the builders, I got plenty of smart-a$$/snide remarks from the hang-on's that want to sit at the cool-kids table...

So, I agree with you 100% and would love to see some (not most, just a few) of those guys come back over here as I value thier opinion even when I don't agree with it...

LONG LIVE PETE! :D

This happens on every forum. Someone will ask a question that was previously debated over at length. I don't know if you checked the archives, but there have been discussions about how you can't dissect an individual ingredient of a frame and figure out how it contributes to the whole using generalizations. This conversation went back and forth for a while. You happened to bring it up again and you got flack for it from people that are less patient about that sort of stuff. Think of it as hazing the new guy. They weren't attacking you personally and telling you you were a bad person.

There are examples of this on every forum. Look at the hazing someone got here for asking about what to wear under their bibs.

[fourflys]

This happens on every forum. Someone will ask a question that was previously debated over at length. I don't know if you checked the archives, but there have been discussions about how you can't dissect an individual ingredient of a frame and figure out how it contributes to the whole using generalizations. This conversation went back and forth for a while. You happened to bring it up again and you got flack for it from people that are less patient about that sort of stuff. Think of it as hazing the new guy. They weren't attacking you personally and telling you you were a bad person.

There are examples of this on every forum. Look at the hazing someone got here for asking about what to wear under their bibs.

I'm not going to debate my other thread on this forum... all I can say is I've never gotten the feeling of entitlement from people here that I did from some over there...

'nuff said on that...

[Pete Serotta]

There are more good folks on EVERY FORUM than there are bad folks(the bad is a VERY SMALL minority. ) !!!


One of the major things I have learned over the past days/weekf(yeah it has been painful and I have learned much and done LOTS of re-examing on my part) is to try to take the high ground!

Yep it is not always easy. :crap:

Hell, with some of my quick posts, I felt so very righteous and satisfying for the moment only to fell like I took a hit to the male sensitive area an hour later :crap:

WE (me especially) have to not let others affect who I want to be and how I want to interact with people.


Hopefully this thread will die out soon (but the memories stay for a long time)

[rwsaunders]

Pete...bring back Viper and it will all go away... :cool:

[snah]

Pete...bring back Viper and it will all go away... :cool:

Thought about that guy just yesterday...

[ergott]

I'm not going to debate my other thread on this forum... all I can say is I've never gotten the feeling of entitlement from people here that I did from some over there...

'nuff said on that...

There's definitely a lot of experts and "experts" there. You have to decipher which ones are which;-) Like you said some of the replies were spot on for you, informative, and i don't think you could have gotten some of that insight anywhere else.

The ones that do, know their stuff are really worth listening to.

There is some great information/discussion that is truly unique there. There is great information/discussion here too. That's what keeps me coming back to both. When the cabin fever sets in (both places) I step out and join in when the coast is clear. The fact that I'm even discussing the drama right now is even surprising me. It's not usually my thing.

[sspielman]

There's definitely a lot of experts and "experts" there. You have to decipher which ones are which;-) Like you said some of the replies were spot on for you, informative, and i don't think you could have gotten some of that insight anywhere else.

The ones that do, know their stuff are really worth listening to.

There is some great information/discussion that is truly unique there. There is great information/discussion here too. That's what keeps me coming back to both. When the cabin fever sets in (both places) I step out and join in when the coast is clear. The fact that I'm even discussing the drama right now is even surprising me. It's not usually my thing.


I am not sure how to tell the difference between the experts and the "experts". I thought that there were only 5 people posting there....some under as many as 10 pseudonyms...

[Pete Serotta]

Thanks to all for posting here but with multiple pages and over 3000 views, it is time to break it up into new threads. I am going to close it but feel free to open another thread to address anything that was not covered


Thanks. PETE