Moots YBB suspension

[jpw]

Do any other builders get to use the Moots YBB suspension, or is it definitely exclusively Moots only? I seem to think I saw it on another builder's frame but I can't now find it. Thank you , Jason.

[Tobias]

Do a search for "softail bicycle" and you should get lots of hits. ;)

[Ken Robb]

My Hampsten has YBB but it was built by MOOTS.

[Honey]

Merlin built with a few back in the day. A lot of others use an air shock in the rear to create the same soft tail effect but the YBB at this point is pretty much a moots thing.

[happycampyer]

Softail bicycles have been around for a long time. Kent Eriksen didn't invent the softail, but he developed the YBB version in 1986 (the YBB, along with other inventions such as bar ends and adustable cantilever mounts called "Moots Mounts" are among the reasons KE was inducted into the Mountain Bike Hall of Fame). A number of buildes have licensed the YBB design from Moots (I think Ritchey used it at one point in his bikes, and the Merlin Echo had it too), but I don't think that there are currently any other builders that use the specific YBB design. John Castellano's softail designs (e.g., the Ibis Silk Ti, etc.) are also highy regarded.

[David Kirk]

Don't forget the Serotta Ti CST soft tail MTB. It was a kick ass race bike and would be my first choice if I ever venture back into racing.

dave

[Steve in SLO]

Litespeed Unicoi is another MTB

[happycampyer]

Didn't the CST and the Unicoi use an air shock, which is functionally closer to the YBB Air?

[Satellite]

Moots didn't patent the YBB so anyone in industry can use it. The CST uses the Stratos Air Shock with mircro pivot at the chain/seat stays. The Ibis Silk Ti is superior to all the other Softtail designs out there followed by the CST and lastly the YBB. The CST isn't offered anymore and the cost of the Silk Ti makes the YBB the best bang for the buck. Steve Potts has brought the Silk Ti back; if cost is NOT an issue get the Silk Ti in 29er you won't regret it.

BTW I have all three; Silk Ti, CST and a YBB.

Satellite

[jpw]

Don't forget the Serotta Ti CST soft tail MTB. It was a kick ass race bike and would be my first choice if I ever venture back into racing.

dave

Isn't Serotta about to revive its mtb range? I wonder if the CST will live again?

[Tobias]

Moots didn't patent the YBB so anyone in industry can use it.
You can only patent new and original ideas. Softail frames are not new.

[dnades]

Chris DeKerf built a soft tail also. Called the TeamST. Some had titanium rear triangles, mine has a steel rear triangle.

[David Kirk]

Isn't Serotta about to revive its mtb range? I wonder if the CST will live again?

I have no idea. Maybe the 2010.5 website will say.


dave

[Satellite]

Chris DeKerf built a soft tail also. Called the TeamST. Some had titanium rear triangles, mine has a steel rear triangle.
The TeamST's had a lot of bottom bracket breakage issues.

[Satellite]

You can only patent new and original ideas. Softail frames are not new.
I think Moots could have easily patented their YBB, Kent told me he just didn't, and he doesn't care if someone uses his designs. Beside the manufactures bought the YBB assemblies from him.

[Tobias]

I think Moots could have easily patented their YBB, Kent told me he just didn't, and he doesn't care if someone uses his designs. Beside the manufactures bought the YBB assemblies from him.
Based on what? What do you think is patentable about a softail frame? That general design was around prior to Moots. I've seen pictures of similar frames that date back almost 100 years.

[Satellite]

Based on what? What do you think is patentable about a softail frame? That general design was around prior to Moots. I've seen pictures of similar frames that date back almost 100 years.

Well for one Titanium wasn't used in bikes a 100 years ago, all you have to do to patent something is change it by 10%, and what is 10% how do you quantify it?

Ibis patented the Silk Ti and its a softtail if you read John's patent he even identifies a couple of softtail bikes made in the past and one of them is a Moots YBB.

The fact is Kent didn't feel he needed to patentend the YBB he just built them. Who cares if Moots could patent the design, everyone knows Moots is the pioneers for the softtail. When anyone talks about Moots the first thing that pops in mind is the YBB.

Satellite

[Tobias]

Well for one Titanium wasn't used in bikes a 100 years ago, all you have to do to patent something is change it by 10%, and what is 10% how do you quantify it?

Ibis patented the Silk Ti and its a softtail if you read John's patent he even identifies a couple of softtail bikes made in the past and one of them is a Moots YBB.

The fact is Kent didn't feel he needed to patentend the YBB he just built them. Who cares if Moots could patent the design, everyone knows Moots is the pioneers for the softtail. When anyone talks about Moots the first thing that pops in mind is the YBB.

Satellite
When I worked with corporate patent attorneys on unique industrial equipment I got a much different perspective from them on what is patentable. It’s usually a lot more complicated than changing the material of an item, or making slight changes that would be obvious to any expert in the field. Patents are meant to reward creative thinking and hard work at a level that goes beyond the obvious to most people. And even then it doesn’t mean a new unique design will work well, or at all. Some bike manufacturers have introduced unique frames that were patented which did not do well because of inherent design shortcomings or flaws.

Regarding the Ibis patent, I found that it was issued due to the flat plate chainstays. The patent doesn’t cover “softails” in general, just the flat plate stays that allow more travel.
Ibis ceased trading a while back, but Castellano has been granted a patent on the flat-plate chainstay design - it's US Patent #6,406,048 should you wish to look it up - and has launched a new brand, Castellano Designs, to sell bikes built around it.

[jpw]

This one?;

$995 is very affordable. So did he originally conceive the design with titanium in mind (the Ibis version), but then reposition his product in the market after Ibis went out of business (or did he sell it?) to a more 'realistic' price point to have a sustainable company?

The flat 'plate/ sheet' (?) chain stays look very durable and a little heavy. Anyone ridden one of these?

[Satellite]

This one?;

$995 is very affordable. So did he originally conceive the design with titanium in mind (the Ibis version), but then reposition his product in the market after Ibis went out of business (or did he sell it?) to a more 'realistic' price point to have a sustainable company?

The flat 'plate/ sheet' (?) chain stays look very durable and a little heavy. Anyone ridden one of these?
JPW,

I don't really understand your question so I will just put my spin on it. Castellano originally built the Titanium Version (Ibis Silk Ti). He then built the same idea in aluminum (Ibis Ripley) with a little less travel same weight and 1/3rd of the cost. Ibis went Bankrupt shortly after the production of both the Silk Ti and Ripley. Castellano went out on his own I assume he had the rights to the designs/patents. The Silk Ti was discontinued under Castellano but he changed the name of the Ripley to the Fango and sells them under his own name Castellano Designs. Recently Steve Potts has started producing the Silk Ti again and I think they just call it the Silk Ti.

Yes, I have a Silk Ti and it's the lightest mountain bike I currently own, the frame is 4.5 lbs. My Rocky Mountain Vertex T.O. hard tail was lighter but NOT by much and it literally beat the crap out of me.

I own a lot of bikes; Serotta's, Moots and Ibis' if the house was on fire and I could run in and save one bike it would be the Silk Ti. I like the Silk Ti so much I bought an extra one just in case something happens to the first one and it’s a total loss.

Satellite

[Jack Brunk]

I had a Ibis Silk Ti and it was a fantastic frame way ahead of it's time like the C40 pre 2001 carbon frames. Unbelieveable ride quality that i really wish I hadn't got rid of. Damn.

[Satellite]

I had a Ibis Silk Ti and it was a fantastic frame way ahead of it's time like the C40 pre 2001 carbon frames. Unbelieveable ride quality that i really wish I hadn't got rid of. Damn.
Jack,

What size do you need; I am thinking of selling my back up Silk Ti; my primary Silk Ti has been so reliable I never ride the backup. Besides my 4.5" Full Suspension Moots Mootaineer could use some lov'in/rid'in.

Satellite

[Jack Brunk]

I have three mountain builds going right now but I remember how sweet the ride was on the Silk Ti. The shop that that had my frame accidentally sold the frame without my ok. **** still stings. Again there's certain things that are way ahead of it's time.

[Satellite]

I hate to thread drift too far, but what the heck a bike shop sold your frame you didn't have for sale?

[jpw]

JPW,

I don't really understand your question so I will just put my spin on it. Castellano originally built the Titanium Version (Ibis Silk Ti). He then built the same idea in aluminum (Ibis Ripley) with a little less travel same weight and 1/3rd of the cost. Ibis went Bankrupt shortly after the production of both the Silk Ti and Ripley. Castellano went out on his own I assume he had the rights to the designs/patents. The Silk Ti was discontinued under Castellano but he changed the name of the Ripley to the Fango and sells them under his own name Castellano Designs. Recently Steve Potts has started producing the Silk Ti again and I think they just call it the Silk Ti.

Satellite

I didn't understand my question either, so that's me, you, and every other forum dweller. What I was trying to ask was whether the silk ti design was conceived specifically for production in titanium, and therefore if alu was chosen later for economic reasons but isn't perhaps as well suited to the design?

What size is your Silk Ti?
Were they made with 1 1/8" head tubes?
What was the tubing spec? Straight gauge, double butted, 3 25, 6 4, ...?
When did they cease production?

[endosch2]

Remember Pro-Flex? Didnt they use that design? They became K2 Bike, Right?

[happycampyer]

Bicycle suspension designs have been around since the late 1800's/early 1900's, but that hasn't stopped people or companies from applying for and obtaining patents on their designs. Witness the patent wars for FS rear suspension—Horst link, VPP, DW-Link, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Trek applied for patents on it's softail design, even though it came much later than Castellano's or Eriksen's design.

The market for FS bikes has pretty much eclipsed the softail market. The YBB ("Why Be Beat?") is one of the few softail designs that has stood the test of time, is currently in fairly wide production,* and for which rebuild kits/replacement parts are readily available.

*Granted, Moots is a boutique builder, but one can get a 26" mtb (YBB), a 29" mtb (Mooto-X YBB), a 96'er (Gristle YBB), a cross bike (Psychlo-X YBB) and if Steve Hampsten is still using Moots to build Strada Biancas, a SB YBB.

[Satellite]

I didn't understand my question either, so that's me, you, and every other forum dweller. What I was trying to ask was whether the silk ti design was conceived specifically for production in titanium, and therefore if alu was chosen later for economic reasons but isn't perhaps as well suited to the design?

What size is your Silk Ti?
Were they made with 1 1/8" head tubes?
What was the tubing spec? Straight gauge, double butted, 3 25, 6 4, ...?
When did they cease production?
JPW,

I would say the design centered around the Ti version; and later determined the Alum would yield a better price point. The cut on the alum version is different and doesn't have as much travel. However the frame does have the same lifetime warranty so it must be equally and durable. The company went out of business and doesn't honor warranty claims; even though they are back in business now.

What size is your Silk Ti? Medium 18.5"
Were they made with 1 1/8" head tubes? Yes
What was the tubing spec? Straight gauge, double butted, 3 25, 6 4, ...? Double butted 3/2.5; Chain stays 6/4 Flat Plates.
When did they cease production? Started and stopped 2001

Here is a link to the old Ibis webpage:

http://ibiscycles.consumedesign.com/products/bikes/mtb/silk_ti/geometry/

This will give you indepth info on the Silk Ti and Ripley.

Satellite

[nahtnoj]

Not all, but most:

Moots
Dean
Litespeed
Ibis
Trek
Serotta
Castellano
Merlin
DeKerf