Needs to be said - PayPal does not provide buyer's protection

[ahumblecycler]

Okay, I feel the need to present this to the forum after reading a classified posting regarding buyer's protection (I am not speaking negatively about anyone on this forum).

In general, sellers and buyers have a misconception that payment through PayPal provides buyer's protection. As a whole, this perception is false. PayPal provides 100% buyer's protection for a purchase through Ebay and likely other commercial sites that allows payment throught PayPal (PP). However, purchases conducted on sites such as this only provides limited protection. The protection is a) whether it was shipped, and b) whether it is was received. PP does care whether the products arrives are a) intact and/or undamaged, and b) whether all products are there. In fact, PayPal recently put forth new guidelines in JAN 2010.

How do I know this? From personal experience of course.

In late OCT 2009, I purchased what I believed was a complete DA7900 group with FSA crank on Roadbikereview.com classified section. I paid through PayPal. The seller, against my requests, shipped via UPS to my PO Box. After some talking, he changed it to my work. When it arrived, I had a crank, a chain, and a cassette ... nothing else. The seller did not respond for 3 days and I instituted a PP complaint. PP took one day ... ONE DAY ... to decide it would take no action because they only cared it was shipped and receved! Yes, I spoke with a rep about this, and that is exactly what he told me.

The money is gone (I figured I have .05% of getting back that group price ... yes it was a freakin' lot of money). I am writing this to educate everyone here about how PP truly operates.

Anyone that has completed transactions with me over the last few months have heard me say I hate PP ... this is why. I will go out of my way to get check versus providing them business. I had discovered that transactions completed through a linked bank account and labeled as personal by-passes fees.

I really try to make my transactions easy, and I also try to help others in ways to avoid giving PP business.

Cheers!

[dancinkozmo]

..sorry you got ripped off ...hope you can eventually make things right..
personally , i wouldnt hesitate to pay by check to most of the serotta forumites..other places, not so sure.

[Louis]

I instituted a PP complaint. PP took one day ... ONE DAY ... to decide it would take no action because they only cared it was shipped and receved! Yes, I spoke with a rep about this, and that is exactly what he told me.

Nuts!

So what would PP have said if instead of the whole group, the seller had sent you an old worn out chain or a single bolt found by the side of the road? Or just a picture of the group?

As long as something is sent, regardless of how it compares to what was originally advertised, they don't care? That's crazy.

Was the original posting in any way ambiguous and you misinterpreted what was being offered for sale, or was the seller just a crook, clearly advertising A + B + C and shipping only A?

Louis

[ahumblecycler]

Clearly advertised, and I have my e-mail traffic to verify. Again, PP did not care.

Was the seller a crook, perhaps? Is UPS at fault for shipping a package at 10lbs to be received at 3.03lbs, perhaps? Currently, UPS is inspecting it but again I have already filed it as "money lost."

Unless purchased through Ebay or commercial dealer where PP has an invested interest in transactions, they do not care.

FYI, the new policy that clearly states what I have written above came out JAN 2010 ... not saying I had any influence in that but I suspect I was not the only voice reporting these incidents.

[oldfatslow]

Very sorry that you lost your money. Hopefully the seller will send the rest of the group.


A few years back I purchased a bike on eBay for a few thousand dollars which turned out to be fraud. eBay canceled the auction and the account of the seller after I made the purchase. When I immediately notified PayPal to hold the money as it had not been collected by the fraudulent seller (as his account had been frozen) and even though eBay owns PayPal it still took a bunch of calls and letters to get my money back (and I was lucky to get it).

I recommend only dealing with reputable sellers with good feedback (or known forumites) and even then when paying with PayPal use a credit card instead of a direct draft from a bank account. I find my credit card issuer to be a lot more responsive than PayPal.

[Satellite]

The seller, against my requests, shipped via UPS to my PO Box. After some talking, he changed it to my work. When it arrived, I had a crank, a chain, and a cassette ... nothing else.


Wierd UPS will NOT ship to a PO Box; file a claim through UPS they are very good with any claim I have ever filed. Did you pay for enough insurance to cover the products?

I hope this wasn't the groupo for the RSL.

Satellite

[jmc22]

I'm sorry your experience with Paypal didn't work out in your favor as I for one had the completely different experience when I had an Issue and had to file a complaint against a Seller.

I purchased a new Kuota frame and fork on Ebay and paid thru PayPal. When the frame showed up I was excited to say the least so I unpacked it and checked it over, upon inspection I noted that the lower headset bearing was missing. Unfortunately the Stronglight headset on the Kuota frame is one in which it is a 1 1/8” on the top bearing and a 1 1/4" on the bottom bearing, if you have ever had to find one of these headsets you know it is not an easy feat. I contacted the Buyer who over a number of days said the following 1) The headset was not included (even though it was pictured in the auction & is part of the bike as shipped from the manufacture) 2) That I damaged the frame when I put it on my bike stand (I sent him a picture of the frame as he requested, yes it was in the stand but it was only balanced on the TT and the clamp was never closed. 3) That his auction allowed for a 3 day return period (I contacted him the day I received the bike but did not file for 5 days as I tried to work things out with him)

I filed a complaint with PayPal who within 2 days ruled in my favor, they directed me to send the bike back to the Seller and that I would receive a full refund inc. S/H once it was delivered back to the Seller. I contacted the Seller and sent him the email that Ebay sent me telling me to return the item to him, the Seller in turn told me he would refuse the return of the bike. I informed Ebay what the Seller stated to me & they told me that if the Seller refused the item that the courier would return the bike to me and I could keep the bike and still get a full refund, they in turn contacted the Seller and told him that I was receiving a full refund and that I would also be allowed to keep the bike as well if he refused delivery. The item was delivered to the Sellers address, he refused like he said he would, I notified Ebay that the delivery attempt took place & received a full refund that day, 5 days later I received the bike back as well. About a month later I contacted Kuota and bought the headset then I sold the bike on ebay for more than what I originally paid for it.

[ahumblecycler]

@jmc22

PP is great when purchased through Ebay, which is why I made a point to show that PP is terrible outside Ebay and other official commercial sites.

@Satellite

By some agreement, UPS is not allowed to deliver to PO Boxes. I did file a claim, and they picked it up last Thursday ... no progress as of yesterday. Before I let them pick it up, I weighed it and took a picture.

RSL? Do I own one of those? It was intended for my Lynskey R320.

[Satellite]

@Satellite

By some agreement, UPS is not allowed to deliver to PO Boxes. I did file a claim, and they picked it up last Thursday ... no progress as of yesterday. Before I let them pick it up, I weighed it and took a picture.

RSL? Do I own one of those? It was intended for my Lynskey R320.

PO Box are Property of the United States Postal Office as such only offical packages sent through the Post Office can be delivered there. That's why UPS delievers packages to your front door.

Sorry I thought you had placed an order for an RSL my mistake.

Satellite

[ahumblecycler]

RSL ... not yet :cool:

Anyways, I wanted to share the experience to inform members the true risk and not false sense of security of using PP outside Ebay and authorized commercial sites (such as this wonderful place).

Good night to all and to all sweet cycling dreams :bike:

[slowandsteady]

As long as something is sent, regardless of how it compares to what was originally advertised, they don't care?

This is 100% true! Paypal sucks!!!!

I got scammed for $1,400 for a watch I bought last year along with 5 other people who lost the same amount. Paypal had been warned and complaints filed against the seller that they had been scammed and Paypal never shut the sellers account down or did anything whatsoever to reprimand him or start an inquiry etc. Why? Because in each case the seller sent a $5 pos watch in a box with certified delivery and signature confirmation. Paypal says that if the seller sent you something then they are relieved of all responsability. The seller could have sent an empty box, a brick the real item or the $5 watch he actually sent. Paypal divorced themselves of the case and all 5 buyers (we are considering a class action suit against Paypal).

The 5 of us hunted this guy down and found him in England and brought the authorities in. Overseas fraud is almost impossible to prosecute and even harder to manage from abroad. My credit card company (Amex) took care of me but the turd that defrauded us is still running around scott free and all due to Paypal and thier refusal to protect buyers even after fraud complaints have been filed against a seller. This is a situation where absolute power corrupts.

I don't us e Paypal if I don't need to. I truly hate the scumbags but they are often the only game in town for fast, easy "trusted" payment...end of rant

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . http://www.paypalsucks.com/

As if it's a surprise to anyone by now.

BBD

[XTC]

Sorry, but I think you guys are merely mis-informed and making demands for services that do not exist.

Outside of ebay, paypal is a money handling entity.... Just like a usps cert check.... do you think the usps would go to bat for you and get you a refund for a transaction gone wrong?

Buying watches from an overseas seller with a dubious history? Give me a break.... and I bet a price too good to be true as well....

The fact that there is some kind of buyer protection for ebay purchases made with pp is truly amazing..... I guess without that, the number of people willing to buy things from strangers would be significantly reduced.

[jmc22]

Outside of ebay, paypal is a money handling entity.... Just like a usps cert check.... do you think the usps would go to bat for you and get you a refund for a transaction gone wrong?



You are completly correct PayPal is just a money handling entity, Western Union is another example. If you want some protection, try your Credit Card company, if you bought the item from a real company they should be able to assist you, if you bought it from a guy off the street - then it's "Buyer beware"

[slowandsteady]

Buying watches from an overseas seller with a dubious history? Give me a break.... and I bet a price too good to be true as well....

You are WRONG on all counts. Don't be so quick to judge when you know little or nothing about what you speak of...especially with attitude. This is a forum to discuss topics that might actually help and inform other people not to be nasty or look down upon someone else or be condescending.

Please note:
PAYPAL was told by 4 individuals that they had been victims of fraud from one particular seller.

PAYPAL at no time took any action to suspend the sellers account to investigate any of the claims over a several week period. As such each subsequent buyer was able to be scammed because PAYPAL refused to do anything in response to a claim against the seller

PAYPAL makes money on each sale (almost 4%!). That is why they want as many sales as humanly possible to take place.

You do know that e-Bay owns Paypal right? that is how they demand payment via Paypal and exclude other forms of payment and that is how they control buyers and sellers financial transactions and how they offer (useless/scam/bogus) Buyer Protection...

[AndrewS]

It sounds like you have addresses, names, written promises and a record of money being exchanged. Why don't you take this up with the police in the seller's home town?

It's interstate fraud. That might not be paypal's forte, but it is the reason we have courts. It isn't that the seller shipped you the wrong stuff, he failed to ship you a great deal of what you purchased, and you have proof.

[slowandsteady]

Start you case with the police IN YOUR town.

Start a case at the FBI Internet fraud website www.IC3.gov.
(especially but not only if the US mail was used as it is in part mail fraud).

Put together all of your e-mails, phone records, receipts, paypal complaint numbers etc. Make sure you have the headers on the e-mail. The FBI uses this to track ISP, location etc.

Call the sellers local police and send them a copy of your police report (from your local police) and also give them the IC3 file case number after you file online.

Get a detectives name and number who will handle your case. Call them often to follow up on the case.

If you used a credit card through paypal AS YOU ALWAYS SHOULD. file a complaint with your credit card company. This does two things: 1. often they will cover your loss, 2. They research and prosecute fraudulant activity with a vengence as it is a huge loss to them each year


Good luck!

[ahumblecycler]

@slowandsteady & AndrewS

Good advice about the police report, where to start and where to take it.

I plan to wait 1 more week to determine UPS' action. After that, I will pay my local PD a visit.

Unfortunately I did not use the CC ... wish I had now :crap:

[maximus]

Why does any seller (assuming they are making infrequent/casual sales on this board), request the added 3% when the buyer can simply make a "personal" transaction?

Maybe I am missing something?

I believe the seller only gets charged a fee if the buyer is using a credit card (vs. PayPal balance/Bank Account), when using the "personal" payment option.

PayPal appears to offer some sort of buyer protection for purchases made outside of ebay, here. ( https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Marketing/securitycenter/buy/Protection-outside)

Clicking "view eligibility" does not shed any light on this though - and actually further confuses it by saying that it only offers it to eBay purchases (thought they just stated the opposite!).

Thanks for bringing this to light :beer:

[AndrewS]

To receive money via credit card through paypal you have to change your account status. After that ALL money received is charged 3%, regardless of its origin.

Ahumble,

You may want to get your ducks in order, then invite the seller to avoid criminal proceedings by issuing you a refund, followed by a return of merchandise. That may be the route most likely to get your money back.

Also, you may be able to get his phone number through paypal, or via a search based on his paypal info. Worth checking into.

[ahumblecycler]

@AndrewS

"then invite the seller to avoid criminal proceedings by issuing you a refund"

That is my intention ... fingers crossed that he will accept it.

[dannyg1]

Suing Paypal on small claims court is another option:

http://paypalsucks.com/SuePayPal-1.shtml

[XTC]

I don't think paypal is there to determine who is right and who is not....

I also don't think that one MUST use paypal to make payments on ebay- last time I checked it was an OPTION

How many positive feedbacks did your scam artist have before you fell into the trap?

Sorry to have an attitude but so many of these bad stories seem to be avoidable with a bit of care.....

You do know that e-Bay owns Paypal right? that is how they demand payment via Paypal and exclude other forms of payment and that is how they control buyers and sellers financial transactions and how they offer (useless/scam/bogus) Buyer Protection...[/QUOTE]

[jpw]

I paid by PP for some bits and bolts from SRP about six weeks ago. It was $150 or so and still nothing has been delivered even after several emails. I'm a patient person, but this is beginning to vex me a little. I wonder if I should make a complaint to PP, and what might happen as a result?

[ahumblecycler]

@XTC

As I stated up front, I did not purchase through Ebay. I purchased the items off of Road Bike Review. We communicated back and forth for 2 days before I pulled the trigger. He continued to communicate through a week or after the parts were (not) delivered, and then he stopped.

To everyone including those who think I did something stupid, I did not post this event for sympathy or advice (although I did get some good advice). I posted because at the time of purchase PP repeatedly stated its buyer's protection was a great thing and the reason to use PP. I noticed this was carried forth, but because I like this forum for the most part and most members, I wanted to bring this to light.

Serotta Pete may want to lock this now as I feel my purpose has been lost.

[Mike748]

If you use the personal transaction option you, as a buyer, are giving up all protections pp offers in return for the seller having no fees. Seem fair?

I hate PP. My approach is to use my CC as often as possible so the bastards don't get to keep the 3%.

[Pete Serotta]

Lots of good advice here...


PAYPAL is a "clearing house" what is and is not in the package and what condition is outside there process. (most times)


Another option is small claims court. Here is NC you can go to them for amounts up to $2500. Unfortunately sellers of this type count on few folks taking them here.

[ahumblecycler]

Last try here ...

"If you use the personal transaction option you, as a buyer, are giving up all protections pp offers in return for the seller having no fees. Seem fair?
"
If the purchase is outside Ebay or PP endorsed website (such as Glory Cycles), it offers no buyer's protection regardless of payment type except that it was shipped and received PERIOD. Using a credit cards gives the buyer the option of paying the fees or passing the fees to the seller, and with most credit cards (do not know if any do not but who knows), the buyer receives the CC protection. However, I thought I had PP coverage, silly me.

There, I am done. I am somewhat sorry I even brought this up.

[jordan]

Thanks for the heads up guys. I had an inkling that PayPal was shady, but this has opened my eyes. I have one question though, how do you pay with a credit card through paypal? I added my credit card, but I'm not sure how to make it the method of payment when sending money.

Jordan

[ahumblecycler]

I believe upon check out you have the option of specifying a different form of payment. In addition, I believe you can change the default payment method to your credit card through your account options.

[jmc22]

If you try to press the matter in court, assuming that you can get the party to show up in court in your state, it still comes down to he said - he said as the Seller could simply say that all of the items were in the box when it left his control.
I think you should just cut your losses and chaulk it up to experience.

[rugbysecondrow]

Thanks for the heads up guys. I had an inkling that PayPal was shady, but this has opened my eyes. I have one question though, how do you pay with a credit card through paypal? I added my credit card, but I'm not sure how to make it the method of payment when sending money.

Jordan

I still don't know why Pay Pal would be viewed as shady. As Pete said, they are a clearing house, they facilitate transfer of funds but they are not they arbitor of all the millions of private transactions/agreements that may or may not go as planned. That is an unreasonable expectation.

The easiest advice is pay cash locally if this is all of great concern for you. Otherwise, we have to assume the risk we know is possible.

Sorry about the OPs loss.

[XTC]

right- it is not paypal that is shady, it is the people WE choose to do business with.....

the fact that we are covered when buying through ebay is a GIFT in my eyes and a legitimate biz expense to the ebay/PP entity.....

[victoryfactory]

I hate PP. My approach is to use my CC as often as possible so the bastards don't get to keep the 3%.

Ummmm....
CC companies also charge 2%-4% to the vendor accepting the card.
They pass that cost on to you anyway in the sale price. You just don't
notice it.

VF

[LesMiner]

This whole thread reminds of a case on Judge Judy involving an ebay sale of a cell phone. The plaintiff seeks her money back because the defendant sent a picture of a cell phone rather than the actual cell phone. The defendants defense was based on the fine print on the ebay listing that stated only the picture was for sale not the cell phone. The ebay ad of course described in great marketing style how great a cell phone this was at such a great price. Judge Judy takes a printout of the website ad from the plaintiff and procedds to try and operate it as a cell phone. Of course in the typical Judge Judy style she rips up the defendant. She makes the point that the ebay ad made statements about the operation of the cell phone but the piece of paper could not ever function as a cell phone. Bait and switch is not legal. So Judge Judy finds in favor of the plaintiff and adds on another $5,000 to the claim.

The plaintiff also pointed out to Judge Judy that she has filed a complaint about this fraud to whatever state she was from. The plaintiff added that her state's Attorney General said three other states had similar complaints about this kind of sale by this defendant. Judge Judy added that she would personally speak the Attorney General herself. Judge Judy asked the defendant why she thought she could get away with such a scam. She said her husband had come up the idea and convinced her it was legal. Judge Judy made a number of statements about her stupidity as well as the fact her husband sent her to court rather than show up himself.

Maybe in this sale of an incomplete grouppo there is a legal remedy.

[retrogrouchy]

I make approximately 300 purchases per year on eBay. I've been on eBay for a decade or so. I've literally purchased from sellers all over the globe. The vast majority of my purchases are paid via PayPal. I typically have a problem about 1-3 times per year. About half of those problems are resolved amicably by contacting the seller directly. About 2/3 of the remaining problems are resolved in my favor via a PayPal claim (which still leaves me out some money, time, and hassle). You pays yer money, you takes yer chances, but if you do LOTS of homework first, you will rarely have a loss of any significant Dollar amount. So I consider bad sellers to be a "one percenter" issue on eBay. Our challenge is to figure out who the one-percenters are, and then avoid them. 99% of the sellers on eBay are 100% honest, but are human, and can and do make mistakes. How they handle those mistakes is more inportant than anything else they do. That's why you have have to THOROUGHLY analyze any seller's feedback (both received and given!) before spending any money with him/her. If you spend much time on eBay (or CL, or many of the bike forums) you can spot 99% of the fraudsters pretty easily after a while, in my opinion.

That said, I hate eBay and I hate PayPal, in some ways. eBay only cares about one thing: making ever-more profits. PERIOD. Anything that gets in the way of that is a nuisance to them (and PayPal is part of eBay...). When they stopped allowing sellers to leave anything other than positive feedback, that was a huge improvement in weeding out the bad apples, but was only done out of eBay's desperation over declining sales/profits in their US market.

I see PayPal as somewhat of a necessary evil. Yes, they suck sometimes, but in general they provide a valuable service. Making nearly four percent just for moving electrons around is outrageous, but I don't see anyone else setting up a viable direct competitor to them.

The bottom line, as always, is caveat emptor (let the buyer beware). Know your seller, or at least do an exhaustively thorough background check on him/her to minimize your risk. Every deal involves risk, and trust. Be especially suspicious about things like fancy watches from faraway sellers! If it sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is. Works for me.

[rePhil]

ahumblecycler,was the seller a frequent poster on RBR? If you can't reach a solution call him out and warn others.

[dannyg1]

I still don't know why Pay Pal would be viewed as shady. As Pete said, they are a clearing house, they facilitate transfer of funds but they are not they arbitor of all the millions of private transactions/agreements that may or may not go as planned. That is an unreasonable expectation.

The easiest advice is pay cash locally if this is all of great concern for you. Otherwise, we have to assume the risk we know is possible.

Sorry about the OPs loss.

It's standard and accepted practice, look to the credit card companies, that the credit provider also guarantees the safety of the transaction.

On paypalsucks.com, a former Paypal employee suggests that the credit card funding option will disappear when the transaction has a flag attached to it. No other warnings are issued.

This practice imposes the entire risk squarely on the purchaser and demonstrates that Paypal isn't interested in the sanctity if any part of the transaction, except the part where Paypal is paid.

[retrogrouchy]

It's standard and accepted practice, look to the credit card companies, that the credit provider also guarantees the safety of the transaction.

On paypalsucks.com, a former Paypal employee suggests that the credit card funding option will disappear when the transaction has a flag attached to it. No other warnings are issued.

This practice imposes the entire risk squarely on the purchaser and demonstrates that Paypal isn't interested in the sanctity if any part of the transaction, except the part where Paypal is paid.

Can you explain a little bit more about that? I've never had PP deny me the option of using my credit card to pay (when I don't have a cash balance), but then I'm mostly using PP for EBay purchases....

[jmc22]

This is a bit of OT but still interesting as it applies to a tranaction between a buyer & seller - take from it what you will but things don't add up with me on the Buyers side:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pinarello-Carbon-Road-Bike-Frame-Cracked-Return-Item_W0QQitemZ150428218331QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_ Bikes?hash=item23063873db

Buyer buys a used Pinerallo for $2,550.00 in mid January, leaves a great feedback at the end of January praising the Seller and conditon on the bike.

Buyer now wants Seller to buy the bike back from him as he "just discovered" a crack on the rear drop-out ---some 2 months later???

So, was the crack there when the Buyer bought it or did it appear after transfer of Ownership?

[victoryfactory]

Our expectations that CC companies will make good on any
problem we have with a purchase are the problem.

Before on line commerce was a big deal, no one would have dreamed of holding
a bank responsible for getting ripped off like this!

You are expecting a bank to be an insurance company. Not Fair.

What happened though, is CC companies in order to hide the amount of fraud
and screwups and lack of security in their businesses began forgiving a lot
of bad transactions to their customers to give us the impression that CC sales
were safe and protected.

This policy allows the CC companies to continue to rake in insane profits even
with the added cost of this "insurance"

What payPal is doing is saying we will do your transaction and take our 3% but we
won't be responsible for ripoffs. They don't want to incur the costs of being
an insurance company like the CC boys. (although they do it for Ebay purchases)
From their POV this is a reasonable position

Want to use your CC within paypal and get the same coverage as
using the CC straight to a vendor? probably won't happen because you are
using Paypal as a go between which breaks the direct CC use deal.
If the CC company is not getting their 2% from the vendor, they have no
interest in protecting you.

VF

[rugbysecondrow]

It's standard and accepted practice, look to the credit card companies, that the credit provider also guarantees the safety of the transaction.

On paypalsucks.com, a former Paypal employee suggests that the credit card funding option will disappear when the transaction has a flag attached to it. No other warnings are issued.

This practice imposes the entire risk squarely on the purchaser and demonstrates that Paypal isn't interested in the sanctity if any part of the transaction, except the part where Paypal is paid.

I suspect the CC company wants to get paid too, which is why it will work to protect the sale somewhat. If it is an eronious sale, is there a lower likelyhood of the CC owner paying the monthly bill on time? If there is a protection, will the buyer spend more, use it for items they might otherwise spend cash or check on? They have a strong interest.

I am not saying that Paypal is perfect, but I think we need to be reasonable in our expectations of them. For the amount of traffic they get, how should they seriously determine the ritiousness of one claim over another? This is especially hard when it is a personal transaction outside of Ebay where the terms are not clearly identified.

There is always room to improve, but is it Pay Pals fault if I do business with a cheat?

[dannyg1]

Can you explain a little bit more about that? I've never had PP deny me the option of using my credit card to pay (when I don't have a cash balance), but then I'm mostly using PP for EBay purchases....

Here's the quote and the link:

>>One other thing, when you try to send a payment via credit card and you are not given that option it is because of a thing called the risk model. Usually it is a high risk transaction and you or the seller have entered some type of fraud que. <<

http://paypalsucks.com/PayPalFormerEmployee2.shtml

[dannyg1]

I suspect the CC company wants to get paid too, which is why it will work to protect the sale somewhat. If it is an eronious sale, is there a lower likelyhood of the CC owner paying the monthly bill on time? If there is a protection, will the buyer spend more, use it for items they might otherwise spend cash or check on? They have a strong interest.

I am not saying that Paypal is perfect, but I think we need to be reasonable in our expectations of them. For the amount of traffic they get, how should they seriously determine the ritiousness of one claim over another? This is especially hard when it is a personal transaction outside of Ebay where the terms are not clearly identified.

There is always room to improve, but is it Pay Pals fault if I do business with a cheat?

It is if they suspect that something's fishy and then neglect to let you in on that information. They are, after all, the company making the "100 percent safe" claim in their splash gifs.

[rugbysecondrow]

It is if they suspect that something's fishy and then neglect to let you in on that information. They are, after all, the company making the "100 percent safe" claim in their splash gifs.

I couldn't find the 100% claim on thier website, but I found this:
13.8 Items Not Covered.

Items that do not have the PayPal Buyer Protection or eBay Buyer Protection message in the eBay listing are not covered by PayPal’s Protection for buyers.


This leads me to beleive that most transaction outside of Ebay or an officially sanctioned Pay Pal purchase (Wall Bike for example) would not be covered. So, I don't think they cover person to person transactions like you say.

Sure, if they have an algorithm of sorts that triggers a fraud alert or if they suspect something is faulty, they should speak up, but I think it is too hard for them to track all the individual transactions that take place.

[dannyg1]

I couldn't find the 100% claim on thier website, but I found this:
13.8 Items Not Covered.

Items that do not have the PayPal Buyer Protection or eBay Buyer Protection message in the eBay listing are not covered by PayPal’s Protection for buyers.


This leads me to beleive that most transaction outside of Ebay or an officially sanctioned Pay Pal purchase (Wall Bike for example) would not be covered. So, I don't think they cover person to person transactions like you say.

Sure, if they have an algorithm of sorts that triggers a fraud alert or if they suspect something is faulty, they should speak up, but I think it is too hard for them to track all the individual transactions that take place.

I think you missed the crux of what I'd written previously. Paypal will, when it's 'fraud que' is triggered, drop the payment via CC option, specifically to avoid the possibility of CC fraud dept action on an 'iffy' transaction. They do not inform the payer of this.

Here's one of the typical, ubiquitous, Paypal '100 percent safe' logo's in use at a store that falls outside of contractual 'buyer protections':

http://www.himalayansaltlamps.com/special/

[ahumblecycler]

The thread has a whole has been across the board, and it appears some want to make an argument without considering what has been posted previously.

I said it before and I will say it again ... I am sorry I even brought it up.

Pete, please forgive me.

[dannyg1]

There's good debate going on here and I don't see why you're sorry you brought it up.

Rugby2ndrow's point is based in the mechanics of what the transactions are and his points have merit. There's a reason that major CC companies don't do 'personal' transactions or cover their validity: It's because there isn't enough value in the credibility of one, single transaction. CC companies leverage the threat of denying a merchant use of the card at their store if they don't follow the rules (amongst other stuff I'm sure) and since CC acceptance is the lifeblood of sales traffic, that threat carries good weight. They want buyers to use their card often and they'll do plenty to keep buyers happy.

Paypal copies that model in relation to Ebay transactions (at least to a relative facsimile) and, as Paul say's, that's where their major protections probably end. I gather from what I'm reading between the lines here that Paul and a few others, believe that the Paypal model has merit and cannot be expected to extend the same kind of protections a legit CC company does, to much riskier 'personal' transactions.

My answer to that argument is in my last two responses on the thread.

It seems to me that Paypal took the business model of cellular telephone service and has applied it to banking. Point being to get all of the benefits and profit generation of a real bank (or CC company) and operate outside of the government regulations that limit what can/cannot be done by a real bank.

I think all of us would agree that the real remedy to Paypal abuses would be another company (or three), doing what Paypal would have us believe it does, but actually doing it well.

[rugbysecondrow]

The thread has a whole has been across the board, and it appears some want to make an argument without considering what has been posted previously.

I said it before and I will say it again ... I am sorry I even brought it up.

Pete, please forgive me.

I agree with Danny, not sure what the issue is here.

I will go back to your original post and ask a question, Is it more or less dangerous to send a stranger your checking account and routing number? I will send a check sometimes, but I feel more comfortable sending a Pay Pal payment because if there is some fraud, it is not from my checking account where all my bills get paid but rather from my Pay Pal account which I use for bikes stuff.

I think the jist is if you are transacting with a crooked person, they can get you if you send a check and they can get you with Pay Pal. I am not certain how a check solves the problems you say, unless your purpose is just to avoid Pay Pal.

It all goes back to risk: tolerance and avoidance. For me, I would not pay big money for something from RBR. I would, and have, spent big money for items off of this board. I sold a bike on RBR and the guy, with out hesitation, sent me a Pay Pal payment for $990. I was happy that there are people who trust, and I feel I am worthy of that trust, but I am not certian it is smart.

[snah]

To the OP, curious to know if you've heard anything new from UPS...

[retrogrouchy]

I agree with Danny, not sure what the issue is here.

I will go back to your original post and ask a question, Is it more or less dangerous to send a stranger your checking account and routing number? I will send a check sometimes, but I feel more comfortable sending a Pay Pal payment because if there is some fraud, it is not from my checking account where all my bills get paid but rather from my Pay Pal account which I use for bikes stuff.

I think the jist is if you are transacting with a crooked person, they can get you if you send a check and they can get you with Pay Pal. I am not certain how a check solves the problems you say, unless your purpose is just to avoid Pay Pal.

It all goes back to risk: tolerance and avoidance. For me, I would not pay big money for something from RBR. I would, and have, spent big money for items off of this board. I sold a bike on RBR and the guy, with out hesitation, sent me a Pay Pal payment for $990. I was happy that there are people who trust, and I feel I am worthy of that trust, but I am not certain it is smart.

Agreed. When I set up my PayPal account, like, forty-three years ago (it seems...), I opened a share draft account at a Savings and Loan where I had no other accounts whatsoever. That account is tied to my PayPal account, and rarely has more than $100 in it. If my PayPal account were ever hacked into, the most they could get would be that $100 or so. I would never, ever, link my PayPal account to any of my other checking accounts, personal or business. Just playing it safe....

[retrogrouchy]

I think you missed the crux of what I'd written previously. Paypal will, when it's 'fraud que' is triggered, drop the payment via CC option, specifically to avoid the possibility of CC fraud dept action on an 'iffy' transaction. They do not inform the payer of this.

Here's one of the typical, ubiquitous, Paypal '100 percent safe' logo's in use at a store that falls outside of contractual 'buyer protections':

http://www.himalayansaltlamps.com/special/

So if PP says no to credit card use, that's your 'potential fraud alert' warning from them, and don't do the purchase!

[dannyg1]

So if PP says no to credit card use, that's your 'potential fraud alert' warning from them, and don't do the purchase!

It's incredibly lame of them to force you to go through all of the extra steps needed to see if you can use a CC, just to know whether there might be a problem, but as far as warnings go, that's all you get.

[retrogrouchy]

I'd say it's a darn good one. I've never received it.....
If I did, I'd stop the deal right there. Period.

[mtnbke]

In late OCT 2009, I purchased what I believed was a complete DA7900 group with FSA crank on Roadbikereview.com classified section. I paid through PayPal. The seller, against my requests, shipped via UPS to my PO Box. After some talking, he changed it to my work. When it arrived, I had a crank, a chain, and a cassette ... nothing else. The seller did not respond for 3 days and I instituted a PP complaint. PP took one day ... ONE DAY ... to decide it would take no action because they only cared it was shipped and receved! Yes, I spoke with a rep about this, and that is exactly what he told me.

That's your problem right there...

Anyone who buys more than just a couple of things a year on eBay or on forums has no excuse NOT to have a FedEx account. Get one.

Listen, in a transportation economics class at the University of Wisconsin-Madison I had the opportunity to see inside UPS operations at their facility in Middleton, WI. After seeing packages thrown from twenty feet inside a truck and down onto the dock (falling about eight vertical feet) I realized then and there that I would NEVER ship or receive anything via UPS ever again.

You can not imagine the caustic relationship between management and labor at UPS. UPS employees seemingly attempt to cause damage to the parcels. I kid you not.

With a FedEx account I can drop anything off at a FedEx Office (the old Kinkos locations) and most are open 24hrs a day. Payment bills to my credit card after delivery. I've never had a single issue with a parcel being mishandled or mistreated. This compared with a laundry list of maimed, destroyed, and otherwise mangled packages over the years via UPS. You want to buy something from someone on Craigslist or on the forum, you just pay for the item, they can drop off your goods at any FedEx Office and ship it to you on your account. You get volume discounting, so the more you ship, or have shipped to you, the cheaper your rates get. You get tracking on everything and everything arrives as it was shipped. I'm still astounded at the revenue that UPS gets considering the antagonistic manner that they engage customers, and the complete disregard they have for their own hourly employees (management is flush with the bonus pool monies, totally different world).

That being said Paypal and eBay are very creepy companies.

Case in point eBay recently introducing the functionality of donating a proportion of auction proceeds to worthy charities via MissionFish.

The slime oozes...

eBay a billion dollar company decides that it needs to skim 20% of all of these donations right off the top before the money is sent to needy non-profits.

Unfreakin' believable.