Ceramic Bottom Bracket

[mlindy]

Does anyone have experience with ceramic bottom bracket?

[dave thompson]

yes.

[chuckred]

yes.

Like adding a turbocharger?
Eliminates maintenance?
Makes the bike float up the hills or fly down them?
Lightens the bike (or the wallet?).
Best thing since sliced bread or no better than the traditional bb's?

[mlindy]

Any recommendations for Dura Ace compatible bottom brackets?

[LegendRider]

Any recommendations for Dura Ace compatible bottom brackets?

Excel puts ceramic bearings in DA bottom bracket cups.
http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Dura%2DAce+Ceramic+BB+Cups+7900&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=6

[GBD]

Have been riding an FSA ceramic BB for the past 3-4 years.
It is not maintenance free, every 4 month, it needs to be cleaned and re-greased. PITA.
I would not recommend getting one.

[David Kirk]

Unless you are going for the hour record I think they are not worth the cost and hassle for the infinitesimally small benefit they give.

dave

[mlindy]

Thanks.

[dave thompson]

I had a D/A BB retrofitted with ceramics. I may have gained enough wattage to light up a firefly's butt for a nano-second but it is smooth running and turns an impressive number of times when the cranks are spun on the stand, which means absolutely nothing. It did lighten my bike the weight of a C-Note so everyone is duly impressed. It was an experiment. Cost a few bucks and was fun. Not much else.

[soulspinner]

Fairwheel bikes hub review puts a number on the benefit of ceramics in the hubs. As Dave mentioned its very very small. Cant imagine cranks will be much different.

[ergott]

Any recommendations for Dura Ace compatible bottom brackets?

Phil Wood
Chris King

[CNY rider]

I had a D/A BB retrofitted with ceramics. I may have gained enough wattage to light up a firefly's butt for a nano-second but it is smooth running and turns an impressive number of times when the cranks are spun on the stand, which means absolutely nothing. It did lighten my bike the weight of a C-Note so everyone is duly impressed. It was an experiment. Cost a few bucks and was fun. Not much else.

Was that your bike or your wallet?

[Ahneida Ride]

I installed Ceramic Bearing Pulleys and I can now drop
Mr. Kirk like a hot potato !!!!! :p :D

Hey .... we all like Bling !

But the Pulleys are blue and they look good !

[oldpotatoe]

Excel puts ceramic bearings in DA bottom bracket cups.
http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Dura%2DAce+Ceramic+BB+Cups+7900&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=6

Lots of bike shops do that but the 'advantage' is small to non existent. They are 'hybrids' and unless the steel races are hardened(most are not) these bearings have a shorter life than their all steel counterparts. Not worth the $, IMO.

[LegendRider]

Lots of bike shops do that but the 'advantage' is small to non existent. They are 'hybrids' and unless the steel races are hardened(most are not) these bearings have a shorter life than their all steel counterparts. Not worth the $, IMO.

Agreed. I should have been more clear - I didn't mean to recommend the hybrids - I wanted to point out that Excel offers a quick and easy option if you want to try them.

[rustychain]

I have long had the opinion that ceramics are just hype. Tried a few aftermarket ones and they sucked (Enduro :no: ). I then went from Campy UT BB (not impressed with the durability at all) to the new Super Record ceramic hybrid. So much better. 15000 miles so far with but one cleaning that turned out to be more from guilt then need. I can not say if it saves watts when new but after 5000 miles the old UT bearings were so gritty no matter how much servicing I did. Now the truth is my old square taper Phil Wood BB's lasted just as long but since the "improvements" to BB design (how many have bit the dust now?) nothing has lasted this long for me. I have tried Ceramic Speed bearings and they seem good (if costly) but the bike I had them on was sold after a few thousand miles so take it for what its worth. IMO and in my personal experience not all ceramic bearings are even as good much less better then high quality steel bearings. The best ceramics however are very sweet indeed. Shop around and do your homework before buying :beer:

[palincss]

Like adding a turbocharger?
Eliminates maintenance?
Makes the bike float up the hills or fly down them?
Lightens the bike (or the wallet?).
Best thing since sliced bread or no better than the traditional bb's?

More like adding pinstripes on your hood, I'll bet.

[fiamme red]

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/6fd7344ab3f43365

In the real world, ceramic bearings just ain't cutting it for bikes. The seals suck at keeping out moisture and crud, 'cuz they're made to minimize friction, not actually seal anything. Their housings tend to be a bit on the fragile side (they break easily during installation) and anything less than a perfect fit causes them to bind. And in hubs they don't really accomplish much anyway, because the theoretical 2-4% power savings in a bottom bracket come about (*if* they come about) because ceramic bearings don't deform under load like steel ball bearings.

So is the whole thing just a scam to sell overpriced, fast-wearing bearings or what? Does anybody actually believe in them? I even took them out of my bottom bracket, because I wanted something that would last more than three months (I went through two of them due to water intrusion). I'll put up with the theoretical power loss and try eating better to make up for it.

Are my experiences, and those of several other bicycle retailers, unusual? Or am I about to be struck dead because I'm not drinking the kool-aid?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles

[godfrey1112000]

I have been using FSA Ceramic BB, and it does require some work about every 5k miles, I have mine pulled twice a year for cleaning and lube/inspection

the life on your Ceramic BB is about 24k miles, I just replaced mine in November after 2.5 years of riding

you will notice a big difference, in you pedal stroke as soon as you install it

best money I have spent on my upgrading

[David Kirk]

I have been using FSA Ceramic BB, and it does require some work about every 5k miles, I have mine pulled twice a year for cleaning and lube/inspection

the life on your Ceramic BB is about 24k miles, I just replaced mine in November after 2.5 years of riding

you will notice a big difference, in you pedal stroke as soon as you install it

best money I have spent on my upgrading

That is interesting. What did you upgrade from?

Dave

[soulspinner]

Many dont believe me but my square taper campy has 20+thousand and it still spins freely without the chain.That bike doesnt see rain, however.

[TAW]

I have been using FSA Ceramic BB, and it does require some work about every 5k miles, I have mine pulled twice a year for cleaning and lube/inspection

the life on your Ceramic BB is about 24k miles, I just replaced mine in November after 2.5 years of riding

you will notice a big difference, in you pedal stroke as soon as you install it

best money I have spent on my upgrading

We installed one at the shop, an upgrade from the regular Dura Ace. I would say that the crank spins much more freely, and probably the best upgrade is the BB in ceramic. I've not noticed much difference in ceramics in wheel bearings, but I think the BB upgrade is significant.

[David Kirk]

In many cases the drag reduction comes from non-contact seals that often come with ceramic bearings. I suppose if one wanted to they could make a non-contact seal for a standard steel bearing and get that free spinning feel while the bike is in the stand. The free spin is not a good indicator of how much friction there is while the bearing is under full use load. So what might spin fast in the stand may not be the same way once you stand on it.

Skateboard wheel bearing come in contact and non-contact versions and the non-contact bearings will allow a much longer free spin that the contact for obvious reasons.

The question of course is is the reduction in drag (very, very small especially at 90 rpm BB speeds) worth the increase in maintenance required? And does a ceramic bearing that hasn't been kept very clean faster than a clean full contact steel bearing.

IMO ceramic bearing are one of the least effective places to put your performance money. The unsung stuff like lightweight shoes with proper insoles will out do the gains one will get from a ceramic BB 8 days a week.

Ceramics were developed for high rpm, high heat applications. Think not 100 rpms but 100,000 rpms. They resist pitting and damage due to breakdown in lubrication due to sling off and high heat. Last I checked I didn't know of anyone that rides when it's 500* F outside and spins at 100,000 rpms.

FWIW an old school cone/cup arrangement will have less bearing drag than any of the modern cartridge bearings - IF they are adjusted properly - and they are rarely adjusted properly keeping in mind quick release end load.

I'm off to get some work done so I can afford that ceramic bearing Ti headset that I need to be fast.

Dave

[Dazza]

In many cases the drag reduction comes from non-contact seals that often come with ceramic bearings. I suppose if one wanted to they could make a non-contact seal for a standard steel bearing and get that free spinning feel while the bike is in the stand. The free spin is not a good indicator of how much friction there is while the bearing is under full use load. So what might spin fast in the stand may not be the same way once you stand on it.

Skateboard wheel bearing come in contact and non-contact versions and the non-contact bearings will allow a much longer free spin that the contact for obvious reasons.

The question of course is is the reduction in drag (very, very small especially at 90 rpm BB speeds) worth the increase in maintenance required? And does a ceramic bearing that hasn't been kept very clean faster than a clean full contact steel bearing.

IMO ceramic bearing are one of the least effective places to put your performance money. The unsung stuff like lightweight shoes with proper insoles will out do the gains one will get from a ceramic BB 8 days a week.

Ceramics were developed for high rpm, high heat applications. Think not 100 rpms but 100,000 rpms. They resist pitting and damage due to breakdown in lubrication due to sling off and high heat. Last I checked I didn't know of anyone that rides when it's 500* F outside and spins at 100,000 rpms.

FWIW an old school cone/cup arrangement will have less bearing drag than any of the modern cartridge bearings - IF they are adjusted properly - and they are rarely adjusted properly keeping in mind quick release end load.

I'm off to get some work done so I can afford that ceramic bearing Ti headset that I need to be fast.

Dave


Dave tells the truth
agreement here from an Aussie National team mechanic since 1995
and those who believe that they go faster with a ceramic bearing, good grief, are you sleeping with a crystal under your pillow.

[godfrey1112000]

That is interesting. What did you upgrade from?

Dave

DA BB

[TAW]

Dave tells the truth
agreement here from an Aussie National team mechanic since 1995
and those who believe that they go faster with a ceramic bearing, good grief, are you sleeping with a crystal under your pillow.

Crystals under your pillow make you faster. :) Let's all remember that technological advancements come in small increments, not in large gains. 10 or 15 years ago bikes were 25 pounds, and we did not suddenly go from 25 to 15 pound bikes overnight. There were incremental advancements which allowed us to be where we are today. Are ceramic bearings going to make you into a Cat 1 from a Cat 5? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that these small gains will not be significant.

[ergott]

Crystals under your pillow make you faster. :) Let's all remember that technological advancements come in small increments, not in large gains. 10 or 15 years ago bikes were 25 pounds, and we did not suddenly go from 25 to 15 pound bikes overnight. There were incremental advancements which allowed us to be where we are today. Are ceramic bearings going to make you into a Cat 1 from a Cat 5? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that these small gains will not be significant.

Not everything is an upgrade or significant. Ceramic bearings are not a significant upgrade in any way. Cees did a test and had every imaginable bearing in a bicycle drivetrain (mech pullies, BB, all hub bearings) upgraded to ceramics. The difference was about 1 or 2 watts.

Trust Dazza and Kirk. They really know what they are talking about.

There's real tech and there's snake oil.

[soulspinner]

Not everything is an upgrade or significant. Ceramic bearings are not a significant upgrade in any way. Cees did a test and had every imaginable bearing in a bicycle drivetrain (mech pullies, BB, all hub bearings) upgraded to ceramics. The difference was about 1 or 2 watts.

Trust Dazza and Kirk. They really know what they are talking about.

There's real tech and there's snake oil.

1 or 2 watts probably includes all the improvements combined, too. Youd do better with a good nights sleep-its free too...

[ergott]

1 or 2 watts probably includes all the improvements combined, too. Youd do better with a good nights sleep-its free too...

I did mean total improvement. A freshly cleaned and lubed chain will save a lot more energy than that.

[David Kirk]

I did mean total improvement. A freshly cleaned and lubed chain will save a lot more energy than that.

Ceramic chain!

dave

[ergott]

Ceramic chain!

dave

Sad thing is I know its in the works.