Rooftop Solar

[Kirk007]

Impressive story: http://www.earth-policy.org/index.php?/book_bytes/2010/pb4ch05_ss3a

Excerpt:

China, for example, is now home to 27 million rooftop solar water heaters. With nearly 4,000 Chinese companies manufacturing these devices, this relatively simple low-cost technology has leapfrogged into villages that do not yet have electricity. For as little as $200, villagers can have a rooftop solar collector installed and take their first hot shower. This technology is sweeping China like wildfire, already approaching market saturation in some communities. Beijing plans to boost the current 114 million square meters of rooftop solar collectors for heating water to 300 million by 2020.

The energy harnessed by these installations in China is equal to the electricity generated by 49 coal-fired power plants. Other developing countries such as India and Brazil may also soon see millions of households turning to this inexpensive water heating technology. This leapfrogging into rural areas without an electricity grid is similar to the way cell phones bypassed the traditional fixed-line grid, providing services to millions of people who would still be on waiting lists if they had relied on traditional phone lines. Once the initial installment cost of rooftop solar water heaters is paid, the hot water is essentially free.

[Tobias]

Solar water and space heating is so much simpler and lower cost than solar electricity production that it should come first. However, it's been around for over 50 years in modern form and hasn't been adopted widely yet in USA. That says a lot about solar electric's future. :(

[Kirk007]

Solar water and space heating is so much simpler and lower cost than solar electricity production that it should come first. However, it's been around for over 50 years in modern form and hasn't been adopted widely yet in USA. That says a lot about solar electric's future. :(

But it is slowly becoming more commonplace even in cloudy areas like Portland, where there is a mass buying program organized by communities and heavily subsidized to the point where it amortizes in a reasonable period. And from what I understand the technology has made leaps and bounds in the past decade. There's some hope.

[SEABREEZE]

Can you break down those heavily subsidized numbers, Smiley not to long ago had a thread going and even with the subsidize , just still to expensive to justify

If the numbers get better, more would be getting on the band wagon, especially when you can sell power back to the utilites

As far as folks in the NW being more concious to solar, I beleive its the mindset and holostic ouitlook of that geographic area.

[Z3c]

Can you break down those heavily subsidized numbers, Smiley not to long ago had a thread going and even with the subsidize , just still to expensive to justify

If the numbers get better, more would be getting on the band wagon, especially when you can sell power back to the utilites

As far as folks in the NW being more concious to solar, I beleive its the mindset and holostic ouitlook of that geographic area.

The topic here is not the same item that Smiley analyzed. Solar hot water panels do not involve electricity, they simply heat water by being in the sun.. Much cheaper and much more simple to install. There are entire communities here in Tucson that require them..

[Kirk007]

Can you break down those heavily subsidized numbers, Smiley not to long ago had a thread going and even with the subsidize , just still to expensive to justify

If the numbers get better, more would be getting on the band wagon, especially when you can sell power back to the utilites

As far as folks in the NW being more concious to solar, I beleive its the mindset and holostic ouitlook of that geographic area.

I've have to go back and look at the numbers - and it is for solar electric not solar water heaters - but the combination of a bulk purchase and state and federal rebates etc. was reducing the retail cost by $75-80%. When we looking into it 8 years ago for our house there was no state or federal tax rebate or stimulus available for residential installation and a system that would supply 1/2 of our electrical needs was around $100K. My understanding is that retail cost has also dropped considerably and the article below confirms: www.portlandtribune.com/sustainable/story.php?story_id=125477784816925200

Based on a 50-home aggregate purchase through the program, a 3-kilowatt system normally costing around $20,500 — which Solarize Portland considers ideal for a Portland bungalow — would cost around $3,600 after incentives, tax credits and the bulk rate.

At today’s electricity rates, that system would save about 3,000 kilowatts per year, for a $300 savings. In 10 years, the system would pay for itself, according to Energy Trust. If energy costs rise, that would shorten the payback time. Of course, that’s not to mention the less palpable benefits of generating green energy for Portland and promoting alternative energy.

[RPS]

The topic here is not the same item that Smiley analyzed. Solar hot water panels do not involve electricity, they simply heat water by being in the sun.. Much cheaper and much more simple to install. There are entire communities here in Tucson that require them..
Exactly. My wife lived in an apartment with solar water heating in south Florida when we were dating decades ago, her uncle has had solar water heating in the Orlando area for over 25 years, and my parent's community heats the pool with solar panels. If direct heating of either water or space is not more common because of high costs or design issues then electricity generation will be hard to justify unless the government socializes it with tax incentives.

[RPS]

At today’s electricity rates, that system would save about 3,000 kilowatts per year, for a $300 savings. In 10 years, the system would pay for itself, according to Energy Trust. If energy costs rise, that would shorten the payback time. Of course, that’s not to mention the less palpable benefits of generating green energy for Portland and promoting alternative energy.

I distrust reports that don't get units correct. :rolleyes:

And what about cost of money?

[SEABREEZE]

The topic here is not the same item that Smiley analyzed. Solar hot water panels do not involve electricity, they simply heat water by being in the sun.. Much cheaper and much more simple to install. There are entire communities here in Tucson that require them..

Thanks Z, in that case all of the sun belt needs to get on board.
The folks out west get it...

Ooops, now I am confused Kirk is saying its for electric not water

[TMB]

I think there are real problems with getting costs to a point that solar electric power will be accepted widely.

For water heat - it is a no brainer, and anyone ion the sun-belt that has the option to do it and isn't - needs to give their heads a shake.

I live in BC and a number of years ago installed solar panels on the roof to heat the water for the swimming pool.

It made such a dramatic and rapid change in our natural gas consumption that the gas utility actually came to the house to do an inspection to see what had happened.

Our gas bill fell by 2/3 'rds. Payback was inside two years.

If I could use this all year around I would be feeding it to the hot water tank in the house.

If the HOA in AZ would let us, I'd install it on the roof there and sell the hot water heater.

[RPS]

If the HOA in AZ would let us, I'd install it on the roof there and sell the hot water heater.
In some systems the hot water heater is kept for thermal storage, and also serves as the backup. In case an electric heater is used it just won't come on unless you run out of solar hot water. If gas only the pilot will burn unless needed.

My home could be easily set up for solar water heating in that I have a section of roof facing south but the HOA would not approve it.

[johnnymossville]

RPS.

Ahhh The dreaded HOA. I had a shutter blow off recently and two days later there was an angry note on my door, basically saying I'm responsible for the neighborhood going to wreck and ruin.

:p

[Bradford]

My home could be easily set up for solar water heating in that I have a section of roof facing south but the HOA would not approve it.
Another reason for having a government. Colorado does not allow HOAs to ban solar.

[Tobias]

Another reason for having a government. Colorado does not allow HOAs to ban solar.
Even if they can’t forbid solar water heaters can’t the HOAs place enough design/aesthetic limitations on installations that they essentially become unaffordable?

I’ve seen system that were not much more than water bags nailed to roofs with exposed tubing all the way to buildings that had solar panels designed into the structure from start. The difference in appearance (and probably costs to an even greater degree) was like night and day (no pun intended).

[Bradford]

I'm not sure how much give and take there actually is, but the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Here is what a quick web search came up with:

"Governor Ritter signed HB 1270 into law on Thursday, April 24, 2008. This new legislation amends C.R.S. 38-30-168, which has prohibited certain restrictions on solar energy devices since the late 1970s, and adds a new section to the Colorado Common Interest Ownership Act. The new statutory provisions permit homeowners to install alternative energy generation devices, such as solar panels and wind generators, and other select, energy-saving improvements, despite any express prohibition of these items in the recorded covenants, conditions, and restrictions applicable to an owner’s home. The statute will control in the event of a conflict between the terms of the recorded covenants and the legislation. Homeowners associations and condominium associations may regulate these alternative energy devices only to the extent that the statutes allow. Colorado homeowners can now install the following alternative energy, or energy efficient, devices, subject to applicable rules and regulations adopted by their community associations:

Solar energy devices
Wind-electric generators
Awnings, shutters, and other shade structures marketed for the purpose of reducing energy consumption
Garage and attic fans
Evaporative coolers
Energy-efficient outdoor lighting devices
Retractable clotheslines
The statute further defines solar energy devices and requires that wind-electric generators meet the Public Utilities Commission’s standards for interconnection. The statute does not give homeowners the right to place any alternative energy device on property (i) owned by someone else, (ii) leased, (iii) used as collateral for a commercial loan, or (iv) identified as general or limited common elements.

Colorado community associations may adopt regulations related to the size, placement, and appearance of the permitted alternative energy devices. Associations may also address bona fide safety concerns in their rules for these improvements. The statute does not preclude community associations from applying their established architectural review procedures before an owner may install a proposed device."

[Tobias]

Colorado homeowners can now install the following alternative energy, or energy efficient, devices, subject to applicable rules and regulations adopted by their community associations:
.................
Colorado community associations may adopt regulations related to the size, placement, and appearance of the permitted alternative energy devices. Associations may also address bona fide safety concerns in their rules for these improvements. The statute does not preclude community associations from applying their established architectural review procedures before an owner may install a proposed device."
Exactly what I thought. If HOAs want to prevent them they can demand enough requirements to make it too costly.

[Bradford]

The law prevents unreasonable requirements, so I don't think you are reading this right. In the end, the HOA does not have final say, the state does. So, if they try to create restrictions that are unreasonable, they won't get away with it.

I know it is hard to believe, but from what I have heard from other people, this actually works.

[RPS]

The law prevents unreasonable requirements, so I don't think you are reading this right. In the end, the HOA does not have final say, the state does. So, if they try to create restrictions that are unreasonable, they won't get away with it.

I know it is hard to believe, but from what I have heard from other people, this actually works.
Bradford, that part is not clear from what you posted. It must be covered elsewhere or perhaps I also missed it.

In any case I can see both sides of the issue. I'd like to be able to install solar without too much hassle but at the same time I wouldn't want a neighbor installing a monstrosity that would reduce property values. It’s a fine line.

[Cinci Jim]

I was able to add a hot water pre-heat funtion to my Geo-thermal unit. It outputs preheated water into the water heater. It was about a $1000 option on the geo-thermal costs.

[Kirk007]

The geothermal heat exchange idea is very cool. I understand it is tricky (and perhaps expensive) to do in urban areas due to the length of piping and cost of drilling vertically but for more suburban/rural setting it sounds great!

[Z3c]

I think there are real problems with getting costs to a point that solar electric power will be accepted widely.

For water heat - it is a no brainer, and anyone ion the sun-belt that has the option to do it and isn't - needs to give their heads a shake.

I live in BC and a number of years ago installed solar panels on the roof to heat the water for the swimming pool.

It made such a dramatic and rapid change in our natural gas consumption that the gas utility actually came to the house to do an inspection to see what had happened.

Our gas bill fell by 2/3 'rds. Payback was inside two years.

If I could use this all year around I would be feeding it to the hot water tank in the house.

If the HOA in AZ would let us, I'd install it on the roof there and sell the hot water heater.

I may be wrong but I believe that it is illegal for an HOA to prevent solar in Az.. I have 24 PV(electric) panels on my roof.

[Cinci Jim]

The geothermal heat exchange idea is very cool. I understand it is tricky (and perhaps expensive) to do in urban areas due to the length of piping and cost of drilling vertically but for more suburban/rural setting it sounds great!

Mine is on 0.2 acres in an urban setting! 3 drill holes in a closed loop.

[RPS]

Mine is on 0.2 acres in an urban setting! 3 drill holes in a closed loop.
I'm curious, what kind of geothermal temperatures are you guys experiencing with these systems?

[dsteady]

I'm curious, what kind of geothermal temperatures are you guys experiencing with these systems?

Yeah! Tell us more about your system, I dream of going geothermal in the city.

[rugbysecondrow]

I am interested in Geothermal as well, it seems there are some good tax breaks and special options out there for these.

As an aside, it seems a good career field would be an independent consultant who could help in navagating through the options, pricing, and state and federal programs available.