Ot 30 Day Trial

[SEABREEZE]

Since we all are use to the format around here, I thought I would bring awareness to that fact, there has been created, another sub forum for OT

I see some folks still posting OT in this forum


I just realized this myself


Hopefully this post gets everyone on track

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . is correct! Please post your OT threads over, uh, there--yeah, next to the potted plant--and we'll see how it works for 30 days. I believe there are also one or more threads over there discussing the relative merit--or lack thereof--of making this arrangement permanent.

BBD

[William]

The other sticky....

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=71257





William

[Marcusaurelius]

I think it's a great idea and I'll stick with the bike related stuff and leave the OT to others.

[Climb01742]

or in the spirit of gandhi and thoreau, exercise a bit of civil disobedience and continue to post OT threads where they belong...here...in general discussion.

if this stands, it will harm the forum. as someone who has seen the forum in all its stages of life, this is one of the worst ideas. each day that we have the OT section, i stop by less and less.

[RABikes2]

each day that we have the OT section, i stop by less and less.
Same here.
Change was made because a few didn't like OT threads. Instead of those in the minority just skipping over the OT threads, the majority, who had no problem moving past what they didn't want to read, now have to change so we can please a few.
The General Discussion area was that, an area for GENERAL discussion. The closeness of the forum "family" is losing its charm.

[Marcusaurelius]

Same here.
Change was made because a few didn't like OT threads. Instead of those in the minority just skipping over the OT threads, the majority, who had no problem moving past what they didn't want to read, now have to change so we can please a few.
The General Discussion area was that, an area for GENERAL discussion. The closeness of the forum "family" is losing its charm.


I am guessing this is based on a scientific poll and not your own prejudice. I do wonder how people can just make things up to justify how they would like the forum to run with lots of iname and nasty politics with just the odd bike topic sprinkled in.

[Kirk007]

in one thread in the "other" subgroup - the steerer tube thread - there has been a strong suggestion that this resulted due to back channel bitching about OT threads. I may be reading more into it than was intended, but if this is what happened, well then I think the comments here about a few ruling the many have some legitimacy. As I recall we have had polls on this in the past and the majority voted for keeping the OT threads in general category. What about that??

And if that is indeed the case then it well and truly sucks as it indicates to me that there is not a family of equals here; rather there are those who feel entitled; entitled to air their views in private with the expectation that their views should and will be acted on without a process for the "others" to weigh in. If I want that type of dynamic I can just watch Lost.

If this is a Serotta decision then fine, let Serotta come clean and state this is how they want it and then I can respect it for what it is. But if this is the result of persistent badgering of the moderators by a few to the point of the mods throwing up their hands and saying enough already we'll try this, well, I think that is a shame and a mistake. If the majority want OTs segregated fine, but have some transparency to the process.

[David Kirk]

I don't think that there is anything nefarious going on here. I think some people would like the general discussion area to be filled with bike related stuff only and some feel that the GD area should be unlimited. It's just a difference of opinion.

I think enough people told the powers that be that the non bike stuff was stuff they didn't want to see and stuff they didn't want to wade through so the powers that be have set up a 30 day trial to see how it works and which way is preferred. I appears to me that if at the end of 30 days it's determined that most like it one way or the other then that's how it will be.

I don't understand why some are so upset. There's a reason we don't have the photo galleries mixed in with GD. It makes them easy to find and keeps them from making GD hard to navigate. Same with 'fitting" and classifieds. Separate them so that the people that want to see them can find them quickly and easily and those that don't can see what they came to see. It seems to me that it's a win-win deal. Want to see what your fellow forumites think about climate change? Click on OT. Want to see if they have something for sale that you might be interested in? Click on the classifieds. Want to focus on cycling? Stay out of OT. What is wrong with that? I don't recall there being an uproar when the photo galleries were set up. No one said they have the right to post photos of their Colnago in the GD section. They put them in the gallery and if you want to see them you go there.

What is the core issue here?

Dave

[Louis]

I agree - what's the big deal about having a separate OT area?

It's not as if OT was banned completely.

[David Kirk]

I agree - what's the big deal about having a separate OT area?

It's not as if OT was banned completely.

IOM you are right.......... It seems to me to be just the opposite of being banned. It seems to me that the OT threads are being acknowledged as being important and being given their own home.

It seems like all the turmoil is about the fact that people that want to see OT threads need to click one more time than before. Just like photo galleries/classifieds/fitting/events...etc.

dave

[William]

...It seems like all the turmoil is about the fact that people that want to see OT threads need to click one more time than before. Just like photo galleries/classifieds/fitting/events...etc.

dave

Actually it's not. The turmoil is being caused by those who don't want OT's and bike-specific in the same area. The change wasn't brought about because people who liked it the way it was, wanted it to stay the way it was. It came about by back-channel bitching by a determined few. This was, in-so-many-words, confirmed to me by some one in-the-know.

This topic has come up numerous times before and it was shot down because the majority liked it the way it was. If Serotta had come along and said they were changing it and that was it, I wouldn't have liked it but it is what it is. But this came about by a few who wouldn't leave the mods alone, and IMO, intentionally fanning the flames in OT's. I think it's pretty obvious already by looking at the activity in both areas that OT's were a very small percentage of what was going on. Plus, with the nicer weather coming along, what was there was likely to diminish anyway.


William

[Blue Jays]

I don't think that there is anything nefarious going on here. I think some people would like the general discussion area to be filled with bike related stuff only and some feel that the GD area should be unlimited. It's just a difference of opinion.

I think enough people told the powers that be that the non bike stuff was stuff they didn't want to see and stuff they didn't want to wade through so the powers that be have set up a 30 day trial to see how it works and which way is preferred. I appears to me that if at the end of 30 days it's determined that most like it one way or the other then that's how it will be.

I don't understand why some are so upset. There's a reason we don't have the photo galleries mixed in with GD. It makes them easy to find and keeps them from making GD hard to navigate. Same with 'fitting" and classifieds. Separate them so that the people that want to see them can find them quickly and easily and those that don't can see what they came to see. It seems to me that it's a win-win deal. Want to see what your fellow forumites think about climate change? Click on OT. Want to see if they have something for sale that you might be interested in? Click on the classifieds. Want to focus on cycling? Stay out of OT. What is wrong with that? I don't recall there being an uproar when the photo galleries were set up. No one said they have the right to post photos of their Colnago in the GD section. They put them in the gallery and if you want to see them you go there.

What is the core issue here?

DaveSpoken like a true gentleman and open-minded person.
Looking forward to the opportunity to engage with you on a new frameset.

[David Kirk]

Actually it's not. The turmoil is being caused by those who don't want OT's and bike-specific in the same area. The change wasn't brought about because people who liked it the way it was, wanted it to stay the way it was. It came about by back-channel bitching by a determined few. This was, in-so-many-words, confirmed to me by some one in-the-know.

This topic has come up numerous times before and it was shot down because the majority liked it the way it was. If Serotta had come along and said they were changing it and that was it, I wouldn't have liked it but it is what it is. But this came about by a few who wouldn't leave the mods alone, and IMO, intentionally fanning the flames in OT's. I think it's pretty obvious already by looking at the activity in both areas that OT's were a very small percentage of what was going on. Plus, with the nicer weather coming along, what was there was likely to diminish anyway.


William

I am one of the people who think this place is better with an OT section. If asked I give my opinion. If some have gone to the mods behind the scenes then forum politics have taken place and IMO that's how the world works. Do I like that this is the way it is? Absolutely not. I'm at the front of the line saying that politics suck. Do I think this will change and that the mods will do the 'right thing' for all involved based on their best opinions and experiences? No, I do not. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

If this is right and it's just politics taking place then you are making your displeasure known and maybe it will sway the mods. On the other hand maybe it won't. In the end it's plus/minus one click either way. Some will win and others will lose. Those terms being a bit strong considering we are talking about 1 additional click, or not.

Lastly before I get some metal work done..... I don't know that the majority has spoken and that the old way is the preferred way. I know I come here much less often and I post less often due to the OT threads and political threads. I know of people who have left this place because of the OT threads and their tone. I know others who stay away because of them. Frankly I personally find them offensive and I already find myself looking in the GD area more often now that I don't have to wade through thread titles concerning things I'm passionate about but don't want to talk about here. The majority of the OT and political threads have few folks that post over and over again in them. It feels to me that the people that really want to argue about global warming are few but if the thread is in the GD area we are all exposed to it. Just like the classifieds or galleries.

In the end it's something we share our opinion on and then accept the results. We have no rights here. This place is a gift to us and if the giver wants to change the gift so be it. If not, so be that. This is not a democracy. It's a company sponsored forum and it needs to meet their needs for them to feel it's time and money well spent. If you and I don't like the outcome there are other cycling forums out there to hang out in. Some have a GD area where anything goes and some don't. Freedom of choice is cool.

Dave

[William]

I am one of the people who think this place is better with an OT section. If asked I give my opinion. If some have gone to the mods behind the scenes then forum politics have taken place and IMO that's how the world works. Do I like that this is the way it is? Absolutely not. I'm at the front of the line saying that politics suck. Do I think this will change and that the mods will do the 'right thing' for all involved based on their best opinions and experiences? No, I do not. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

If this is right and it's just politics taking place then you are making your displeasure known and maybe it will sway the mods. On the other hand maybe it won't. In the end it's plus/minus one click either way. Some will win and others will lose. Those terms being a bit strong considering we are talking about 1 additional click, or not.

Lastly before I get some metal work done..... I don't know that the majority has spoken and that the old way is the preferred way. I know I come here much less often and I post less often due to the OT threads and political threads. I know of people who have left this place because of the OT threads and their tone. I know others who stay away because of them. Frankly I personally find them offensive and I already find myself looking in the GD area more often now that I don't have to wade through thread titles concerning things I'm passionate about but don't want to talk about here. The majority of the OT and political threads have few folks that post over and over again in them. It feels to me that the people that really want to argue about global warming are few but if the thread is in the GD area we are all exposed to it. Just like the classifieds or galleries.

In the end it's something we share our opinion on and then accept the results. We have no rights here. This place is a gift to us and if the giver wants to change the gift so be it. If not, so be that. This is not a democracy. It's a company sponsored forum and it needs to meet their needs for them to feel it's time and money well spent. If you and I don't like the outcome there are other cycling forums out there to hang out in. Some have a GD area where anything goes and some don't. Freedom of choice is cool.

Dave

Well said. I agree with you on some points, disagree on others. That's life. In the end, it will be what it will be.


William

[SamIAm]

I was originally against moving the OT stuff, but I find that I like the current structure. More because I don't have to look at the political threads anymore. I find those to be cancerous to the unity normally found here. I wish they would ban them altogether.

It's like a snake in my backyard, I would rather it not be there, but if its there, I prefer to know where it is.

[Kirk007]

I'm not sure why this has hit a hot button with me; I'm somewhat surprised that it has, but it has. Maybe it is just that I need a vacation and am annoyed that I can't take one right now, but I think it goes deeper than that.

I think it is a concern that the one thing that keeps me coming here instead of just focusing on the bike content across the hall is the quality of discourse on the OT threads and the fear that the learning opportunities here will be greatly diminished. I've been glancing at the number of viewers of the two categories throughout the past two days and it is dramatically different as one might expect. Folks will undoubtably draw different conclusions from this observation.

One of the beauties of the OTs was that if one looked beyond the predictable positions there were often new posts by a diverse audience that were very enlightening or that brought out the humanity of the forum. Will that same pool of knowledgeable folks take the time to scrutinize the OT category and to post new threads? Will folks share their personal challenges and sorrows and will they find the solace that has been so evident here in the past or will it be 6 usual suspects in the OT category talking to themselves and that's it? I guess we'll know in 30 days.

And what is OT and what is not? Is a TV commentator's opining that cyclists should be run down by cars bike related or OT? Will we slowly slide back to the way it was before? Have we created more work for the mods and more antagonism between posters who think disagree whether something is OT and should be "taken over there?"

And I guess I'm lazy and have a high tolerance of chaos- I rarely look at the photo galleries even though I love looking at bikes. Out of sight out of mind. Objectively it is just one click but when in between phone calls and making a quick check to see what's up on the forum, one click can be more than it would seem.

So, much in the same way as I view using carbon in certain bicycle applications, like seatposts, I think the segregation of posts is an inelegant answer in search of a real problem, and that it has the potential to do some harm to something I like.

There's obviously no perfect solution as there are many different preferences and many of those cannot be reconciled with a binary solution. But there is history here on this forum and with this issue and to me that makes some degree of transparency of process, and process itself, important.

It is absolutely Serotta's sandbox, and as a result how it chooses to manage it is or at least seems to me like it should be important to the company. The process of closing en masse OT threads and then going to this configuration smells bad. If at the end of 30 days there is a process: either an up or down poll or a reasoned determination of position by the Company, fine, then respect will have been shown to all points of view.

In the end, the days are now longer, flowers are blooming and if then end result is, for me, a less interesting forum it will be less of a distraction from living in the real world rather than on the 'net. I can live with that - I've got some nice bikes to ride.

[1happygirl]

Same here.
now have to change so we can please a few.
The General Discussion area was that, an area for GENERAL discussion. The closeness of the forum "family" is losing its charm.

I agree, just like more regulation is to protect the stupid people, they were clearly marked threads stating OT. I read with interest everyone's opinion even if I didn't comment and learned things from the OT threads that I wasnt aware of due to the vast intellectual element of the people here on the forum. If I remember there was a vote on this a while back to keep things "as is". Anyway, for my .02 cents I echo what has already been said by most :
ruins the family feel
will stop by less
have to take an extra step for content (come on people do like the easy road, even one click vs 2)
also, if im not mistaken, like clicking in the rides section or photo gallery, I sometimes want to go back and posts are gone after a certain time date which is annoying. will this be that way too?
some of the threads i glanced in the general section right now at as i am running out the door are not clearly bike related (i'm not being ugly but diagnoses etc ) and then some who should be general (birthday) are not (what gives?) Who determines ot?
as above threads were marked and if you can't pass by mcdonalds without stopping in, outlaw mcdonalds?
just my thoughts which most of has been echoed by others in this thread already

[Climb01742]

I don't think that there is anything nefarious going on here. I think some people would like the general discussion area to be filled with bike related stuff only and some feel that the GD area should be unlimited. It's just a difference of opinion.

I think enough people told the powers that be that the non bike stuff was stuff they didn't want to see and stuff they didn't want to wade through so the powers that be have set up a 30 day trial to see how it works and which way is preferred. I appears to me that if at the end of 30 days it's determined that most like it one way or the other then that's how it will be.

I don't understand why some are so upset. There's a reason we don't have the photo galleries mixed in with GD. It makes them easy to find and keeps them from making GD hard to navigate. Same with 'fitting" and classifieds. Separate them so that the people that want to see them can find them quickly and easily and those that don't can see what they came to see. It seems to me that it's a win-win deal. Want to see what your fellow forumites think about climate change? Click on OT. Want to see if they have something for sale that you might be interested in? Click on the classifieds. Want to focus on cycling? Stay out of OT. What is wrong with that? I don't recall there being an uproar when the photo galleries were set up. No one said they have the right to post photos of their Colnago in the GD section. They put them in the gallery and if you want to see them you go there.

What is the core issue here?

Dave

human exchanges are richest when they're most diverse. cycling simply isn't interesting enough to support a truly engaging forum. cycling plus the full range of human life and interests_are_engaging enough.

those who advocate for segregation are, i believe, tinkering with killing what makes this forum special. it's our diversity, depth of knowledge and sparks that occassionally fly that have lifted the serotta forum above the others.

this forum has given serotta a unique branding opportunity precisely because it reflects the true dynamic of a great and intelligent group ride. separate sections strikes at the core of this dynamic. kill that dynamic and you harm the benefit serotta derives from the forum.

that's my intellectual argument. here's my gut argument: it wasn't broken and we are adults. two sections are intellectual diapers.

what is so freaking hard about NOT clicking on a thread? every human being on earth does NOT do a million things every day. we're actually quite good at it. it's easy. ironically, not clicking is easier than clicking.

[1happygirl]

It's like a snake in my backyard, I would rather it not be there, but if its there, I prefer to know where it is.

Hey, SamIAm they were marked OT (that's how ya knew where the snake was). I'm obviously still in favor of the old way.

But I'm still not sure who determines ot and how long the ot is going to stay there. I went back to the cycle gallery and rides section to search info and they disappear. I still can't figure out how to find the old info. It seems a limited # of posts are allowed in the rides section, etc. Can someone clarify that for me?

[rugbysecondrow]

I feel pretty good after my ride, so good that I almost agreed with you, almost.

What the segmenting has done is water down both catagories. Sure, you had to look past some things that, for either personal or professional reasons, are not in your best interest to comment on, but don't we regularly ignore that which we don't want to participate in? Sure, it is easier to put those topics you don't like in the corner, but is that reasonable?

What I have learned from the OT threads being segregated is that the quality of the cycling threads are pretty poor to stand on their own right now. . We have a generic carbon question, generic TI question, a poll that really isn't a poll, a recycling of the chain lube discussion, some show me your...threads. I am not complaining about they fact they are there, I just don't open them if I don't have an interest.

I have learned from you, Smiley, Serotta Pete, and a multitude of others who make this forum fantastic with the expertise and knowledge brought to the table, but it frankly pales in comparison to what I have learned from the other members in many of the OT threads. Watering down that participation would be a loss to what makes this forum great. Is it the best cycling forum? I am not sure. Is the the best forum for cyclists? You bet your ass.




I am one of the people who think this place is better with an OT section. If asked I give my opinion. If some have gone to the mods behind the scenes then forum politics have taken place and IMO that's how the world works. Do I like that this is the way it is? Absolutely not. I'm at the front of the line saying that politics suck. Do I think this will change and that the mods will do the 'right thing' for all involved based on their best opinions and experiences? No, I do not. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

If this is right and it's just politics taking place then you are making your displeasure known and maybe it will sway the mods. On the other hand maybe it won't. In the end it's plus/minus one click either way. Some will win and others will lose. Those terms being a bit strong considering we are talking about 1 additional click, or not.

Lastly before I get some metal work done..... I don't know that the majority has spoken and that the old way is the preferred way. I know I come here much less often and I post less often due to the OT threads and political threads. I know of people who have left this place because of the OT threads and their tone. I know others who stay away because of them. Frankly I personally find them offensive and I already find myself looking in the GD area more often now that I don't have to wade through thread titles concerning things I'm passionate about but don't want to talk about here. The majority of the OT and political threads have few folks that post over and over again in them. It feels to me that the people that really want to argue about global warming are few but if the thread is in the GD area we are all exposed to it. Just like the classifieds or galleries.

In the end it's something we share our opinion on and then accept the results. We have no rights here. This place is a gift to us and if the giver wants to change the gift so be it. If not, so be that. This is not a democracy. It's a company sponsored forum and it needs to meet their needs for them to feel it's time and money well spent. If you and I don't like the outcome there are other cycling forums out there to hang out in. Some have a GD area where anything goes and some don't. Freedom of choice is cool.

Dave