Friction shifting

[Ralph]

I've seen a numbers of questions about friction shifting on here lately. Some on here are probably too young to ever have used friction shifting equipment. For sure.....I'm not interested in totally going back to that equipment.

However.....Some of us grew up with friction shifting, and learned a lot about bike mechainics making those systems work with all kinds of different parts. And in my opinion.....if you still want to have a friction shifting bike......it is better now than it ever was before STI and Ergo.

One of my bikes has Suntour Bar Con friction shifters, I bought them new on E Bay ($35) a couple years ago (with cables routed like Ergo cables). I think they are still available new. The bike has a collection of older Campy parts, depending on whether I run it as a double or triple (triple FD stays on always), with C Record hubs spaced to about 129 MM, and I use a variety of 7 speed Clusters, which are still available, cheap, and better shifing than ever with Shimano HG tooth profiles. For riding in the mountains, I can get a 1-1 low gear by either using a Campy triple front with 28-40-50 (ramped and pined) with 13-28 rear (and some of you use triple fronts with even lower gears), or I can run it as a double with a Veloce crank ($35 on E Bay) in 34-50 and a 13-34 in rear. Using Campy Med cage rear. It all work great (for friction shifting), and it works much better than friction shifting ever did in the past. I'm not much interested in giving up my Campy Ergo shifting to go back, but if you want to set up a simple bike with a mix mash of old parts, cheaply, or to set up gearing it's difficult to accomplish with modern systems....using your old parts, give it a try. 7 speed clusters with HG shifting and 9 speed chain, with front cranks ramped and pinned, is much better friction shifting than anything we ever had in the 60's, 70's, or 80's. And no issue about parts having to be made to work together. I guess my view shows my 68 years of being on this planet.

I differ with the RIV crowd in that I'm not interested in giving up my ERGO shifting and going back. But I do like to set up a bike sometimes for my use the way I like it geared, for a trip or something, without spending a ton, and I don't mind friction shifting sometimes, especially if I'm riding alone. I just like to ride.

[MattTuck]

Cost and sentimentality aside, there is ONE application I can think of that friction shifting would be equal if not superior to indexed/brifters.

If you were building a hill climbing rig specifically for races such as Mt. Washington, Whiteface, Ascutney, etc., and you were doing away with all superfluous components.

You could get rid of brakes (and thus hoods, and brifters) get rid of your front rings and use just a single chain ring, and just use friction shifting for your rear cluster.

Not sure what the total weight savings would be, maybe a pound?

[palincss]

These are about the nicest friction shifters I've ever used.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-84224226242177_2094_108401723

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-84224226242177_2094_108126715

http://www.velo-orange.com/diacosish.html
http://www.velo-orange.com/diacosibash.html

They're the Sun Tour Sprint brought back into production. You can get them under the Silver brand name from Rivendell, or Dia Compe from Velo Orange, as bar end or downtube shifters.

I have one bike that has these, NOS Sun Tour Sprints I got from ebay in the UK before the Silvers were available, mounted on a set of old Shimano bar end shifter pods. The lever feels so nice, both in shape and in smoothness it's simply a lot of fun to use. The best justification: "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't."

I also have several other bikes that use indexed bar end and downtube levers, although I don't care for STI and never tried Ergo or Double Tap; and I do own a Rivendell.

[Bradford]

I have no interest in giving up my STI on 3 of my 4 bikes, but I love my semi-friction bar ends on the touring bike bar ends. I still run indexing on the right size, but have had the left set to friction.

With only three rings to go between, I don't miss the indexing at all. And when touring, nothing is more easier than friction. Never goes out of adjustment like STI can with full loads and is so simple it always works.

[Ray]

Cost and sentimentality aside, there is ONE application I can think of that friction shifting would be equal if not superior to indexed/brifters.

If you were building a hill climbing rig specifically for races such as Mt. Washington, Whiteface, Ascutney, etc., and you were doing away with all superfluous components.

You could get rid of brakes (and thus hoods, and brifters) get rid of your front rings and use just a single chain ring, and just use friction shifting for your rear cluster.

Not sure what the total weight savings would be, maybe a pound?
You're just talking about using downtube shifters, right? Not necessarily friction. You could do the same thing you're talking about with indexing downtube shifters. The little indexing ring in the shifter might weigh another gram or two, but I doubt it.

Me, I have friction on my town bike. Have ridden plenty on the road, but just enough times getting out of the saddle with a burst of energy just to have the chain jump down a cog and take ALL of that energy and then some to get everything moving again. I'm good with indexing on my road bikes, STI on one, barcons on the others.

-Ray

[veloduffer]

I use Campy Ergo on most bikes but I have barcons on my Serotta and used to have downtube shifters on my Gios. I like friction and the feel of moving the levers just into the right place.

To me, it's a bit like reading a newspaper - there's a tactile feel of the newsprint that seems "right" that you can't get reading on the web. Or a manual shift car with manual clutch - you feel more in tune with the car and in this case, the bike.
:beer:

PS I sometimes miss playing tricks of reaching over and shifting your buddy's or racer's downtube shifters just before starting the sprint. Can't do that to brifters and I've been losing sprints ever since. :p

[dancinkozmo]

...if you're losing sprints you need to go old school "team cinzano" and put your pump into the spokes. ..works every time :banana:

[Ralph]

Another thing to remember....and it's been touched upon in prior threads. And that is "Ghost" shifting. Where these HG 7 speed cogs I use wants to hold onto the chain, and the chain skips before settling on the next shift. I had that problem when I used a 8 speed chain on the 7s. 7 and 8 speed cog spacing is the same. When I switched to a 9 speed chain, which has same inside dimensions as the 8 speed chain, just thinner side plates, ...my problems went away. That's why I use a 9 speed chain on the 7 speed HG freewheels. For me....a 8 speed SRAM chain will work fine with a Sachs 7 speed freewheel....which doesn't have the HG type ramps. FWIW

[veloduffer]

...if you're losing sprints you need to go old school "team cinzano" and put your pump into the spokes. ..works every time :banana:

Alas, frame pumps have gone the way of the friction shifter...only mini-pumps and CO2 inflators these days. :rolleyes:

[Velosmith]

I got out the Gios today and chased a powerful couple on a tandem. It was like taking a knife to a gun fight. I finally got dropped when they powered over a roller about an hour 30 in. I had to stand to maintain and found myself one gear too low. Normally you could tap the gear under load and hold on over the top. Being spun out standing I had no options left but to sit and drop.

This bike is really fun for a Sunday ride, but technology is great when you are on the limit sometimes. :rolleyes:

[dancinkozmo]

Alas, frame pumps have gone the way of the friction shifter...only mini-pumps and CO2 inflators these days. :rolleyes:

hmmm....good point...how effective would a series of expletives and a tossed co2 inflator be ??

[feds127]

I thought this was pretty neat, someone restored their Shimano/Suntour bar end shifters....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/sets/72157605052296024/detail/

[palincss]

I thought this was pretty neat, someone restored their Shimano/Suntour bar end shifters....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/sets/72157605052296024/detail/

I use exactly that combination (although not with polished pods) on my touring bike. It's a lot of fun to use. If friction shifters had been this good back in the 70s I think indexing might never have taken off.

[torquer]

If you were building a hill climbing rig specifically for races such as Mt. Washington, Whiteface, Ascutney, etc., and you were doing away with all superfluous components.

You could get rid of brakes (and thus hoods, and brifters) get rid of your front rings and use just a single chain ring, and just use friction shifting for your rear cluster.
As I recall, Mt. Washington & Whiteface require at least one brake. (Lots of folks ride down Whiteface, after all.)
But your point is well taken, and your estimate of weight savings is conservative; I think 13-pound bikes are not unheard-of on the Mount.
And anyone else remember Lance replacing his left STI lever with a brake-only lever and a downtube shifter for the front derailleur for mountain TTs? He probably would have had the mechanics strip even more without those pesky UCI rules! (Which don't apply to the NE hillclimbs.)

[Blue Jays]

Those who were raised with friction shifting seem to do OK with it.
Riders often know to momentarily back-off the pressure to execute a clean shift, for example.
I have a theory that is why those familiar with friction tend to have indexed drivetrains that last longer with less mechanical issues in the meantime.
Definitely remember some of those hybrid index-friction arrangements that were out there over the years, especially for climbing.

[Richard]

Blue Jays has it on the nose. Every rider I know who grew up on friction is MUCH easier on their indexed stuff. Always "clutch" always shift before it is an "emergency" power shift, etc. I am amazed at the noises I hear from drivetrains of riders who never experienced non index, friction systems.