Tubular Wheelset - Recommendations??

[climbgdh]

I know there are previous posts on this and I have searched some of them but I'm looking to buy a tubular wheelset and am looking for recommendations for all of you guys with tubie experience. I've never tried them but really want to add a set for recreational use, long club rides, long charity rides, & the odd race. I'm 190#. Not particularly hard on gear but I like reliability (who doesn't?). My LBS has a set of Ambrosio Nemisis hoops for about $90 CAD each and was thinking about a set of Record or DT240 hubs for these and getting a reputable local builder to build them up for me. I know there are plenty of other choices so would like to get other potential rims on the shortlist. I'd like something fairly light because I do alot of riding in the mountains but will sacrifice lightness for higher reliability. Thanks in advance. If it makes any difference these will be swapped between my Merckx and my Sachs. Would also look at something carbon but those are probably all out of my price range. Probably trying to keep the budget under $1000.

[Pete Serotta]

DT240 hubs with MAVIC tubular rims are a nice combo. There are many good choices out there and it will come down to what you prefer.

[bicycletricycle]

I have had 36 hole mavic reflex built with revolution spokes that were excellent, I also have had really good experience with campag nuetron and nucleons and I currently have some fulrum racing zeros that are really fast, I think that the mavic revolutions were the most comfortable of these but the nuetrons/filcrums just feel faster.

[stackie]

I've had the silver Mavic Reflex rim suffer from nipple pull through and rim cracking around the eyelet. Justin Spinelli rebuild my hubs with the anodized Reflex rims last spring which are holding up better. Still, I would probably go Nemesis if I had the choice again.

Jon

[palincss]

What is your plan for dealing with flat tires, both on the road and after you get home?

[LegendRider]

I've had the silver Mavic Reflex rim suffer from nipple pull through and rim cracking around the eyelet. Justin Spinelli rebuild my hubs with the anodized Reflex rims last spring which are holding up better. Still, I would probably go Nemesis if I had the choice again.

Jon

I'm fairly sure Mavic has rectified this problem. How old were the silver Reflex rims?

I've never ridden the Nemesis rims, but the braking on the Reflexes is very nice.

[climbgdh]

What is your plan for dealing with flat tires, both on the road and after you get home?

I guess I'll learn as I go with the tubies. I expect I'll have a pre-glued tire under my seat for flats on the road. For when I get home I guess I'll patch but have no idea how to go about that but like to learn new things. I guess there is the sealant route too correct? FWIW I don't flat often with my clinchers. Last year I flatted twice in about 8000km of riding and one of those times was on my commuter which I have no plans of going with tubies.

[MikeW55]

I've been riding the older campy shamal wheelset for about 7 yrs-bulletproof, never been out of true, great wheels if you can find a pair.

[climbgdh]

I've been riding the older campy shamal wheelset for about 7 yrs-bulletproof, never been out of true, great wheels if you can find a pair.

Yea.... I forgot about the Shamal's. Are they still available? I think just the Shamal Ultra now correct? Might be out of my price range. If these are half as reliable as my Campy Eurus' they would be awesome wheels.

[sspielman]

The Nemesis rims are great. Laced onto Record hubs with something like DT 14/15 g spokes cross 3, they are bombproof and light. The Nemesis rims are sturdy enough that there is no real reason to go with 36 spokes...32 are fine.

[climbgdh]

The Nemesis rims are great. Laced onto Record hubs with something like DT 14/15 g spokes cross 3, they are bombproof and light. The Nemesis rims are sturdy enough that there is no real reason to go with 36 spokes...32 are fine.

How would 28 hole Nemisis suit someone at 190#? My LBS has Nemisis but they are 28 hole. I would prefer 32 though.

[sspielman]

How would 28 hole Nemisis suit someone at 190#? My LBS has Nemisis but they are 28 hole. I would prefer 32 though.

In my opinion, 28 would be a little iffy..It would be okay for the front but not so much for the rear. When you talk about reliability, in addition to longevity, there is the issue of rideability of a wheel in the event of a broken spoke. If you break a spoke on 32 hole wheels, you can usually loosen the brakes and continue on...(unless it is a drive side rear spoke)...with 28 spoke wheels, one broken spoke is usually enough to render a wheel unrideable.

[retrogrouchy]

Whatever you do, the main thing will be to buy quality tires. If you buy cheap tubulars, you will have lots of problems. If you buy good ones, you won't. Too many people say tubulars flat more (they don't) because they buy crappy ones.

My wife rides tubulars on her everyday bike, and has done so for about 75,000 total miles over 29 years (on the same bike). She rides that bike about 3000 miles per year. In the last four years, she has experienced (on the worst roads in the nation, according to some rankings) three flats. Two were due to me not replacing worn rear tires soon enough (she got 100% tread useage out of those!). The third was a very small cut/leak in her front tire. She was able to pump it up and complete the ride. She typically uses Veloflex Criteriums. Those are fabulous tubulars, in my opinion....

[jblande]

Yeah, Shamal Ultra Tubulars (http://www.jedi-sports.de/product_info.php/info/p2138_Campagnolo-Shamal-Ultra-tubular-2010.html)

Great Wheels

And Still Around

[climbgdh]

Whatever you do, the main thing will be to buy quality tires. If you buy cheap tubulars, you will have lots of problems. If you buy good ones, you won't. Too many people say tubulars flat more (they don't) because they buy crappy ones.

My wife rides tubulars on her everyday bike, and has done so for about 75,000 total miles over 29 years (on the same bike). She rides that bike about 3000 miles per year. In the last four years, she has experienced (on the worst roads in the nation, according to some rankings) three flats. Two were due to me not replacing worn rear tires soon enough (she got 100% tread useage out of those!). The third was a very small cut/leak in her front tire. She was able to pump it up and complete the ride. She typically uses Veloflex Criteriums. Those are fabulous tubulars, in my opinion....

Thanks RetroG. I definitely won't be cheaping out on the tires. I expect to use Vittoria Pave's or Veloflex Roubaix. I like something a little wider.

[retrogrouchy]

Even better! The best tubulars (ever) were Clement Campionato Del Mondo Setas, in my book. Like ridin' on a (very fast) 290-gram cloud.....

[stackie]

Legendrider,

The silver (non ano) Reflex rims that failed were laced onto the hubs in 2003 and 2007. I'm hoping the ano rims hold up better.

Jon

[GuyGadois]

I picked up a pair of Campy Nucleons and they are solid and light. Can be had for about $300 used. I have never heard of anyone being disappointed with those wheels.

Guy

[KJMUNC]

[QUOTE=sspielman]In my opinion, 28 would be a little iffy.QUOTE]

I range between 180 and 190 and have been riding Nemesis 28h wheels laced to DT240s hubs as my daily wheel for over a year.

I've never had a problem with them and think that 32h is way overkill unless you are really hard on equipment. Either way they are super bomber wheels.

Of course, your results may vary....

[sspielman]

[QUOTE=sspielman]In my opinion, 28 would be a little iffy.QUOTE]

I range between 180 and 190 and have been riding Nemesis 28h wheels laced to DT240s hubs as my daily wheel for over a year.

I've never had a problem with them and think that 32h is way overkill unless you are really hard on equipment. Either way they are super bomber wheels.

Of course, your results may vary....

I have no problems with a 190# rider on a 28 hole nemesis rimmed wheel up front...the problem is with LONG TERM durability on a rear wheel. The amount of dish on a modern rear wheel is pretty radical....To make the thing strong, it requires pretty extreme tension on the drive side. If you don't have adequate tension, the wheel might be okay at first, but you will eventually begin to break the inadequately tensioned spokes on the non drive side....they may also loosen and make the wheel go out of true frequently....When you distribute adequate tension over too few spokes, you run the risk of having the rim crack around the spoke holes on the drive side (see the Mavic Reflex comments above). It takes a lot of skill to build a good rear wheel these days. So, my point is that 28 holes may be 'adequate" in the sense that the wheel doesn't collapse or dent under the rider under normal use, but but the wheel is "challenged" to acieve long term durability by its design. 4 extra spokes on a rear wheel add almost nothing in the way of extra wind resistance, but they add a great deal of extra strength.

[oldpotatoe]

I guess I'll learn as I go with the tubies. I expect I'll have a pre-glued tire under my seat for flats on the road. For when I get home I guess I'll patch but have no idea how to go about that but like to learn new things. I guess there is the sealant route too correct? FWIW I don't flat often with my clinchers. Last year I flatted twice in about 8000km of riding and one of those times was on my commuter which I have no plans of going with tubies.

That's the ticket. I have had 2 flats on one ride twice in 25 years of riding tubulars. All things being equal, you will get fewer flats on tubies since you won't get a nch flat. Lots of advantages to tubulars, few disadvantages, IMO.

[titans]

I didn't know Mavic had a problem with spokes pulling through the rim. I had a set built last year with Campy Record hubs. Less than 3k miles later I hear this clickety noise while on my rollers this year. Upon inspection I found cracks in 14 of the 32 eyelets on the rim. I had them rebuilt with Velocity Escape tubular rims this time around. They are on sale right now at Excel for $39 and change.

[sspielman]

I didn't know Mavic had a problem with spokes pulling through the rim. I had a set built last year with Campy Record hubs. Less than 3k miles later I hear this clickety noise while on my rollers this year. Upon inspection I found cracks in 14 of the 32 eyelets on the rim. I had them rebuilt with Velocity Escape tubular rims this time around. They are on sale right now at Excel for $39 and change.

That's pretty much how it goes with the Reflex. The rim wall is just TOO THIN at the spoke bed for a modern rear wheel. It's a shame because they are nicely made and have a great braking surface...they just need to be a 420 g rim (instead of 375) with all of the extra material in the spoke bed. The funny thing is this....the Reflex seems to be getting MORE fragile as the years go by....normally as the extruding dies wear, the rims produced by them get heavier...

[climbgdh]

Thanks guys for all the great comments. I expect I'll try to find a set of 32h Nemesis'. My LBS has a set but I'm pretty sure they are 28h. How is the durability of the anodized brake surface on the Nemesis'? Does all this wear off? May also try to find a set of Nucleon's.

[palincss]

It's too bad you don't have anybody local who uses tubulars. If it were me, before I invested the money in a set of wheels and tires because I wanted to try tubulars, I'd see if I couldn't borrow a set of wheels and tires, go for a few rides to better understand the difference in feel, and with an old worn-out tire go through the process of actually fixing a flat, from start to finish.

It's just possible you might find what's involved in maintaining tubulars to be an unsustainable deal-breaker, or you might find that the improvement you get over the best clinchers might not seem to be worth the effort. I'm not saying they aren't worth it, but rather that who knows, you might not think so after you see what's involved in living with them.

It would be a shame to discover that after you spent many hundreds of dollars outfitting yourself.

[climbgdh]

palincss...... i get you for sure. i know no one that rides tubulars. i might try my local high end LBS and ask if they have a set I could ride for a few rides. i'm pretty sure i will like them. i'm not worried about a little extra hassle of of stretching tires, gluing, dealing with flats or whatever. i like learning new stuff and trying new things. i enjoy messing around with my bikes, etc. i will see if i can try a set first though probably. i appreciate all the comments. this place is great.

[palincss]

I think you underestimate what's involved in actually fixing a puncture in a tubular tire.

Is there anyone on the forum who has a (disposable) flatted tubular tire they could send to climbgdh, along with a proper tubular patching kit?

Your instructions are here: http://www.yellowjersey.org/tubfix.html

[sspielman]

I think you underestimate what's involved in actually fixing a puncture in a tubular tire.

Is there anyone on the forum who has a (disposable) flatted tubular tire they could send to climbgdh, along with a proper tubular patching kit?

Your instructions are here: http://www.yellowjersey.org/tubfix.html


What I do with a punctured tubular is throw it away. I average 3 punctures/year...and just wear out the other tires. I exclusively ride tubulars and ride upward of 10000/year....I figure that I go through 6 tires total. This figure is similar or better than what could be achieved with a similar weight clincher. When I watch what some of my friends go through with clinchers, I am glad that I don't have to deal with THAT hassle....

[climbgdh]

I think you underestimate what's involved in actually fixing a puncture in a tubular tire.

Is there anyone on the forum who has a (disposable) flatted tubular tire they could send to climbgdh, along with a proper tubular patching kit?

Your instructions are here: http://www.yellowjersey.org/tubfix.html

Thanks for the link to Yellowjersey. I don't think I'm underestimating anything. I am going to research some more before making the plunge and I still have my clinchers. I don't consider anything a hassle when it comes to riding or maintaining my bikes. It's ALL good! :)

[palincss]

What I do with a punctured tubular is throw it away. I average 3 punctures/year...and just wear out the other tires. I exclusively ride tubulars and ride upward of 10000/year....I figure that I go through 6 tires total. This figure is similar or better than what could be achieved with a similar weight clincher. When I watch what some of my friends go through with clinchers, I am glad that I don't have to deal with THAT hassle....

So, you are the perfect person to send a punctured "throwaway" (you were going to anyway) tubular to our esteemed colleague, so he can practice his patching skills before he invests big money.

[retrogrouchy]

I've never repaired a tubular (in about 35 years of using them). It's just not necessary or required. We have probably 30 bikes sitting on tubulars in our fleet, right now. If I ride one, and flat, the tire gets replaced. It's just that flats almost never occur with quality tubulars (even on our crappy roads here in the Midwest). Much of the mythology about how awful tubulars are is just nonsense. Buy quality ones, and you won't have significant problems.

[palincss]

And a good tubular tire costs what, $120 bucks or so?

[retrogrouchy]

Yep. And lasts about 2500 miles, on average. The good ones are cheaper to own than the cheap ones are, per mile. It's all about life-cycle cost. Cost per mile, if you want...

[climbgdh]

Retro-G ..... would you consider the Vittoria Pave Evo CG 2 Tubular a quality tubie? They are going for under $60 online at Ribble. Course they don't have stock at the moment.

[LegendRider]

And a good tubular tire costs what, $120 bucks or so?

I get Vittoria CXs (23mm) from ProBikeKit for about $65 shipped.

[climbgdh]

No need for anyone to send me any tubulars to practice on. I'll sort out what I'm doing but really appreciate all the input. I wouldn't call investing in tubulars a "big money" proposition FWIW.

[palincss]

Still, if you run over a field of broken glass at 150 miles into your service life and flat, isn't it a bit painful to just throw that tire away? Or is this a bit like that like from the folk song Railroad Bill? ("Railroad Bill, up on a hill, wiping his ass on a ten dollar bill...")

[stackie]

I think TireAlert fixes sewups quite nicely for $17 each last time I checked. If I have a flat early on in the tire's life, it goes to TireAlert. Late in life, into the trash.

Jon

[rdparadise]

I'm going to be new to tubulars myself this spring. I ordered a pair of Kinlin TB-25's from Jeremy, along with his custom hubset and Sapim spokes. 20 front/28 rear.

I'm going to learn the rules of the road with tubies too and appreciated the banter here.

These wheels by the way are running me just under $1,000 shipped to my door and will come in at around 1400 grams. I'm looking forward to riding tubies and will let everyone know my experience when I get there.

Tire recommendations would be appreciated as well for me.

Thanks,

Bob

[palincss]

These wheels by the way are running me just under $1,000 shipped to my door and will come in at around 1400 grams.


I'd call that a "substantial investment."

Note: I'm not saying it isn't worth it, not if you know what's involved and feel the trade-offs are worth it. And I definitely believe there are performance benefits. But, downsides as well.

[retrogrouchy]

There are no downsides to tubulars. You can buy a nice old used tubular wheelset at a swap meet for fifty or a hundred bucks. You don't have to spend a fortune buying fancy new tubular wheels (unless you want to...).

P.S. Don't ride through piles of broken glass, in general. ;)

[retrogrouchy]

Retro-G ..... would you consider the Vittoria Pave Evo CG 2 Tubular a quality tubie? They are going for under $60 online at Ribble. Course they don't have stock at the moment.

I'm not familiar with that particular one. I used to ride Vittorias exclusively (um, back in the '80s, now that I think of it), but haven't used any of their tires in a long time. I ran CX on the front and CG on the rear for years and years back then.

You don't have to spend $120 to get a quality tubular, but those Veloflexes are pretty darn sweet. I just wish they made the fat one with a traditional-colored (gum) sidewall. I think they (still) only come in an all-black version.

[sspielman]

So, you are the perfect person to send a punctured "throwaway" (you were going to anyway) tubular to our esteemed colleague, so he can practice his patching skills before he invests big money.

I am not going to send him one to repair because I don't recommend that he perform that exercise....just like I don't advocate other forms of self flagellation....

[JeffS]

Buy Vittoria's on ebay, from the UK, or for a more reliable source, go to universalcycles and use their coupon codes. 10% off 100 or 15% off 300.

They're still expensive either way, but the only reason to spend $100+ on a tire is because you want to contribute to your LBS owner's college fund.

[retrogrouchy]

My concern with Vittoria tires is that they are made in Thailand, and I've had bad experiences with tires made there in the past and recently, both tubular and clincher. The Challenge tires are also made there, and I've had problems with Challenge clinchers as well. I haven't had any issues with Panaracer or Grand Bois clincher tires (which are also made by Panaracer), and both of those brands are manufactured in Japan.

The Veloflex tires (Deda Tre also) are still made in Italy, at least the ones I've used are, and I've not experienced problems with either of those brands' tires.

[retrogrouchy]

Buy Vittoria's on ebay, from the UK, or for a more reliable source, go to universalcycles and use their coupon codes. 10% off 100 or 15% off 300.

They're still expensive either way, but the only reason to spend $100+ on a tire is because you want to contribute to your LBS owner's college fund.

What LBS sells any tubulars? None near me....

[JeffS]

What LBS sells any tubulars? None near me....


Depends on where you live, probably none. I just didn't want to raise the ire of the LBS crowd.

Around here, Performance has one model Vittoria and that's probably it, but your shop could always order something.

[oldpotatoe]

And a good tubular tire costs what, $120 bucks or so?

Conti Sprinter is $65. Vittoria CX is about $75. Both 'good tubulars'.

[oldpotatoe]

Legendrider,

The silver (non ano) Reflex rims that failed were laced onto the hubs in 2003 and 2007. I'm hoping the ano rims hold up better.

Jon

Hard anodizing on a eyeleted rim actually increases the chances of a eyelet pulling thru. When installing the eyelets on the hard anodized rim, makes for micro cracks that leads to cracking. Non hard anodized rims are more reliable, Mavic included.

[champ]

I would look for some Campy Eurus/Fulcrum One tubulars as these are certainly available for under $1k. Or look for some Shamal/Fulcrum Zeros but both will probably be over the $1k mark. Other options are Campy Neutron/Nucleon, Eurus G3.. If you want to go hand-built the Ambrosio Nemesis and Velocity Escape are very good choices as are Campy or DT 240 hubs. Either way I would have your spokes tied and soldered.

[flickwet]

ya might have it backwards, for shorter rides or racing, go with tubies; on a long tour or century, clinchers for me. yeah, I love tubies they ride nicer, they are lighter and I rarely flat. Having said that a flat tubey can ruin your hole day, esp if on that long ride it was your second one. Just my opinion and you know how rare opinions are here