Fender Questions

[Clydesdale]

OK it's looking like it will be wet here until sometime mid-summer :rolleyes: so I'm considering fenders on my cross bike for wet rides, commuting, etc. My bike has mounts so I'm thinking full length but mainly just want something stable that is fairly easy to put on and take off.

Can anyone give recommendations/ experiences? Thanks.

[Smiley]

Planet Bike

[cp43]

I have used Planet Bike and SKS full length fenders for my commuters. I have found the SKS ones to be more rigid. They are easy enough to install/remove that you could do it a couple of times a season, but I wouldn't want to do it per ride.

I would recommend something like this (http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=113410&cat=8&brand=332)

Stainless steel or aluminum are also options, they look great, but I've never used them so I'm not sure about installation.

Chris

[sg8357]

Planet Bike Cascadia, the longer the front fender + mudflap = drier feet.

[11.4]

Step 1: Full fenders. I'd also recommend the SKS. I just find they are more durable than Planet Bike and other brands, and the mounting hardware is just a tad better. If you ride any tire more than a real 23 mm wide, go for the 45 mm wide fenders. They look slightly bulky but you don't want to have your fenders chafing your tires all the time because there's only 3-4 mm of clearance. This isn't racing, after all.

Metal fenders sho do look purty, but they do bend and break more. The steel Berthoud fenders don't work harden too much, but if you bend them when putting the bike in a car at some point (or on a bus bike rack or whatever), they are hard to fix. The alloy Honjos are very pretty but the aluminum does tend to work harden and crack. I've tried many ways to mount them including dedicated bosses under the rear brake bridge and the fork crown, with neoprene grommets used to isolate them from frame vibration, all to no ultimate avail. They definitely do not put up with any significant amount of weight in mud flaps or such, which tend to flap them back and forth and cause accelerated hardening and cracking.

My favorite is to use Honjo mounting hardware with the SKS fenders. Get the Honjo mounting wires and frame clamps from Jitensha and use them instead of the V-shaped SKS hardware. Especially if you have a frame with fender eyelets in strange places (and if you have one of our forum sponsor's frames with eyelets, you probably do -- the ones inserted into the holes of the stay ends), the SKS wires can be just a tiny bit too short.

No clearance for full fenders? At least take them up to the rear brake in the rear and up to the rear of the fork crown in front. The little stub in front of the fork crown protects you from a little bit of splashing, but not much. The stretch from the rear brake to the bottom bracket helps keep a little water off you, but it doesn't make the difference between wet and dry. I prefer a full fender and at this point have a rain bike designed for sufficient fender clearance all the way to the bottom bracket in the rear -- can't do much about these stinking carbon forks these days, although a cross fork or a couple of the newer alternatives coming available might be worth considering if you really want to shell out on a dedicated high dollar rain bike. But honestly, after riding a nice bike as a dedicated rain bike, I'm a big fan of titanium for winter (bare ti, so you just sponge or brush it off to clean it) but I would just go for a Surly Long Haul Trucker or something in that vein for winter riding -- and save the money and the nicer frame for summer. Remember, it's winter.

You can get those River City Cycles kits to bridge your fenders across your brakes front and rear (or make them yourselves from Blackburn stainless rack straps that your shop probably throws away anyway). They complicate the picture a bit and take a bit of engineering. In the end, they work but I haven't found they actually keep me dryer or the bike cleaner. If on principle you want almost-full fenders (they leave a gap right at the brakes that stuff can spray through) then go for them. But to be practical, I'd rather have a simpler setup that I can remove for cleaning. And carbon forks, recessed brake mounting bolts, and tight clearances all give these approaches some heartburn as well.

Step 2: Don't even begin to go out without Buddy Flaps. Forget all the homemade versions, the big wide heavy Berthoud flaps, and so on. Buddy Flaps are the way to go. They are cheap, last forever, and keep you and your wheelsucking friends dry. And they are long enough so that they go to within an inch or two of the ground, unlike pretty much any other commercial flaps. Just drill a small hole and use a stainless button-head allen bolt with a nylok nut on the outside and you're golden.

At this point, you will have very little water from the road hitting you. Now you try to eliminate the rest plus handle water directly from heaven with a good jacket and related apparel. That's a different thread, but do remember that you typically will get damp inside from perspiration anyway.

[fiamme red]

Great information, 11.4. Thanks for taking the time to post.

I have full SKS fenders on three bikes and hammered Honjo 35 mm fenders on my Rivendell Romulus (which has sidepull brakes). As much as I like the looks of the Honjos, I'm considering replacing them with SKS 35 mm, because the rear fender is so close to the Pasela 28 mm tire that it makes a lot of noise when I'm riding in the wet. The SKS should have slightly more clearance.

Is it possible to use 45 mm fenders with sidepull brakes? I suppose you'd have to bend inwards the part of the fender that goes under the brake?

[palincss]

Metal fenders sho do look purty, but they do bend and break more. The steel Berthoud fenders don't work harden too much, but if you bend them when putting the bike in a car at some point (or on a bus bike rack or whatever), they are hard to fix. The alloy Honjos are very pretty but the aluminum does tend to work harden and crack. I've tried many ways to mount them including dedicated bosses under the rear brake bridge and the fork crown, with neoprene grommets used to isolate them from frame vibration, all to no ultimate avail. They definitely do not put up with any significant amount of weight in mud flaps or such, which tend to flap them back and forth and cause accelerated hardening and cracking.


How long a service life do you typically get from Honjos?

[palincss]

Step 2: Don't even begin to go out without Buddy Flaps. Forget all the homemade versions, the big wide heavy Berthoud flaps, and so on. Buddy Flaps are the way to go. They are cheap, last forever, and keep you and your wheelsucking friends dry. And they are long enough so that they go to within an inch or two of the ground, unlike pretty much any other commercial flaps. Just drill a small hole and use a stainless button-head allen bolt with a nylok nut on the outside and you're golden.


What are "Buddy Flaps"? Who makes them and where do you get them? Have any photos?

[palincss]

Is it possible to use 45 mm fenders with sidepull brakes? I suppose you'd have to bend inwards the part of the fender that goes under the brake?

Not all sidepull brakes are the same. For one thing, single pivot sidepulls have a higher arch than dual pivots and probably crowd fenders less. Also, not all dual pivots have the same dimensions.

[Blue Jays]

What are "Buddy Flaps"? Who makes them and where do you get them? Have any photos?Buddy Flaps (http://www.buddyflaps.com/index.htm)

[palincss]

Thanks. They look a lot like some I've seen that were made of stair tread material. And they definitely look like they'll suppress the rooster tail.

[bicycletricycle]

Sks fenders are very good, the hardware is superb , they are lightweight, stiff and durable. I tried some stainless berthound fenders and like the Honjos , they are noisy

[wasfast]

Totally disagree on SKS. After having 3 sets fatigue crack and seeing 2 others do the same in the center of the rear, I'm strongly biased to the Planet Bike. The SKS has a soft aluminum center that the fender is extruded around. Fatigue causes the aluminum to fail and then the fender totally breaks.

The Planet Bike are 100% polycarbonate (Cascadia for example) and no such issues. I'm 3 years into them on a bike that gets 6 months of rain riding each year. The SKS lasted 6 months maximum.

Full fenders are a requirement if you really want your feet dry and your bike somewhat protected in the rear. Buddy flaps and front flaps within 2" of the road highly recommmended.

[bironi]

Sks fenders are very good, the hardware is superb , they are lightweight, stiff and durable. I tried some stainless berthound fenders and like the Honjos , they are noisy

Maybe it's the installation. I ride with a couple buddies, we all have Berthoud's, and no noise at all. :beer:

[PCR]

I put full SKS on my Gunnar Sport. Painted them same color as the frame, they work great and look great. Good fenders! :banana:

[Blue Jays]

"...Maybe it's the installation. I ride with a couple buddies, we all have Berthoud's, and no noise at all. :beer:..."In 100% agreement with you. From what has been shared with me, truly good metal fender installation is an art.
Getting the fender to ride an equal distance from the tires takes hours to complete both wheels.
With correct plastic spacers & leather washers, the riders of fendered bicycles with whom I've ridden are completely silent.

[11.4]

In 100% agreement with you. From what has been shared with me, truly good metal fender installation is an art.
Getting the fender to ride an equal distance from the tires takes hours to complete both wheels.
With correct plastic spacers & leather washers, the riders of fendered bicycles with whom I've ridden are completely silent.

I'd agree with all this. Metal fenders are a pain to set up. Once set up they are superb. But if they break or get bent, you have to start over from scratch. They typically require drilling to accommodate mounting hardware (Honjos and Berthouds do, anyway) and you can usually bet on a less than optimal fit the first time or two, or else having to go through two sets to get the first mounting right. That can make them pretty expensive. Don't feel you have to stick with Berthoud hardware on Berthouds, or Honjo hardware on Honjos. They both offer many options for mounting and the fittings can usually be swapped between the two fenders. Plus, Honjos come with basic hardware but there are many variants (both for different mounting and for upgrades such as stainless mounting bolts instead of alloy, etc.) that can be used on any fender, even SKS's. My only problem with Honjos has been with work-hardening of the aluminum. When I tried to mount Berthoud leather fender flaps on Honjo fenders, the Berthoud flaps were so heavy and wide that they caused the fenders to oscillate while riding and they only lasted a matter of weeks before cracking. I got them to last a full season with Buddy Flaps and with neoprene grommets insulating them from frame vibration, but they did need ongoing tightening and grommet maintenance to avoid problems. When your rear fender cracks in half laterally at the rear brake bridge and the two pieces cram together under the brake bridge, it isn't pretty. I've see Honjos last well in certain instances, but I couldn't make that happen with a variety of different installations I attempted. And people who installed a lot of them had mixed results as well and when they looked over my installations, they couldn't see a fault with them. I discussed the problem with Tom Kellogg who had seen some of these problems and we had independently come to the same solutions, but they were far from perfect.

Someone has posted the website for Buddy Flaps already. Most shops now carry them. You can get them in different colors with different patterns (plain black, a bike, skull and crossbones, naked trucker female, etc.) and can order them for a team with custom logos. Someone should get some Serotta Buddy Flaps going.

[oldmill]

The Planet Bike Cascadias are easy to install, look great and so far seem very durable. I find the hardware simpler and less troublesome than that on the SKS (which itself isn't terribly complicated or troublesome: the planet bikes are just a step better on both scores).

[palincss]

My only problem with Honjos has been with work-hardening of the aluminum. When I tried to mount Berthoud leather fender flaps on Honjo fenders, the Berthoud flaps were so heavy and wide that they caused the fenders to oscillate while riding and they only lasted a matter of weeks before cracking


Sounds like the fenders weren't properly supported. I have Honjo fenders with a Berthoud mud flap on my Kogswell P/R. This bike was my commuter from Nov 2006 to June 2008, and since then has been my touring bike and frequent daily and weekend rider. It rolled over 9300 last week. No cracks, no flapping, no oscillation and no problems.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3624679905_f1fc918db0.jpg

Here it is on tour in the Shenandoah Valley last June.

[fiamme red]

Not all sidepull brakes are the same. For one thing, single pivot sidepulls have a higher arch than dual pivots and probably crowd fenders less. Also, not all dual pivots have the same dimensions.The brakes on the Romulus are Shimano BR-A550 57 mm long-reach calipers.

[MerckxMad]

Totally disagree on SKS. After having 3 sets fatigue crack and seeing 2 others do the same in the center of the rear, I'm strongly biased to the Planet Bike. The SKS has a soft aluminum center that the fender is extruded around. Fatigue causes the aluminum to fail and then the fender totally breaks.

The Planet Bike are 100% polycarbonate (Cascadia for example) and no such issues. I'm 3 years into them on a bike that gets 6 months of rain riding each year. The SKS lasted 6 months maximum.

+1 on the PB over SKS recommendation. I found the SKS fenders and struts to be finicky and noisy. PB freddy fenders work best for me. Easy on, rock solid, no noise. Plus, with each purchase you're doing a little good for cycling.

[11.4]

Sounds like the fenders weren't properly supported. I have Honjo fenders with a Berthoud mud flap on my Kogswell P/R. This bike was my commuter from Nov 2006 to June 2008, and since then has been my touring bike and frequent daily and weekend rider. It rolled over 9300 last week. No cracks, no flapping, no oscillation and no problems.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3624679905_f1fc918db0.jpg

Here it is on tour in the Shenandoah Valley last June.

We addressed that. We even doubled up on the struts at the rear. They just wanted to break. I did have one pair on a bike that lasted about 18 months but then the next one lasted three weeks. I'm not denying that some people get them to work reliably -- the issue is that too many people can't get reliability out of them. It's like the comments above on SKS fenders -- some do well with them, some do horribly. It's like puncturing on tubulars. It's like who enjoys the feel of a Prologo Team EVO. And so on and so on.

[Clydesdale]

Thanks all. Really helpful stuff.

[xjoex]

I have a set of full SKS for my cx bike, but I just put these Zefal Trails:
http://www.rei.com/product/799364
Which are $14 on rei outlet btw...

Damn they are nice. I rode for 2 hours in the rain today and they performed 98% as well as the full sks ones I have.

[peter weigle]

In 100% agreement with you. From what has been shared with me, truly good metal fender installation is an art.
Getting the fender to ride an equal distance from the tires takes hours to complete both wheels.
With correct plastic spacers & leather washers, the riders of fendered bicycles with whom I've ridden are completely silent.

Metal fenders, Berthoud, Honjo, Vo's should be dead silent if mounted correctly!
Every contact point has to have the right fastener and washer, and I don't mean leather everywhere like i saw on a bike recently. It even had thick leather washers behind the stays at the drop outs.... guaranteed to loosen in no time.
Properly mounted fenders likes these have great lines, are silent and don't loosen and require a lot of tightening and fussing with.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/2811014159/sizes/o/in/set-72157607024556688/
They do take a LOT of time to mount properly.

[Blue Jays]

"...Properly mounted fenders likes these have great lines, are silent and don't loosen and require a lot of tightening and fussing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/2811014159/sizes/o/in/set-72157607024556688/
They do take a LOT of time to mount properly..."Agree 100%. My plan is to direct this task to a professional.
The people who know what they're doing (see your pic) certainly make a fendered bike look über-classy.

[palincss]

Agree 100%. My plan is to direct this task to a professional.
The people who know what they're doing (see your pic) certainly make a fendered bike look über-classy.

Just make sure they do know what they're doing. A few days ago I had the opportunity to examine a fender installation done at a local bike shop. The fender came pre-drilled with one hole, intended to be located under the fork crown; the installer instead used that hole for the mounting point under the front rack. As a result, there was much too much fender covering the front of the wheel, and not enough covering the back of the wheel. You'd think something like that would be immediately obvious -- it certainly was to the owner.

But then, when I visited that same shop 15 years ago in search of a set of fenders for my then-new Bruce Gordon commuter, the response to my inquiry was, "Fenders? What the f**k are fenders?"

[Blue Jays]

"...Just make sure they do know what they're doing..."Yep, definitely checked that box with one of the most distinguished builders of fendered bicycles in the world.
Installing fenders and maintaining the smooth lines along the tire is definitely as much art as it is science.

[veggieburger]

I have a set of full SKS for my cx bike, but I just put these Zefal Trails:
http://www.rei.com/product/799364
Which are $14 on rei outlet btw...

Damn they are nice. I rode for 2 hours in the rain today and they performed 98% as well as the full sks ones I have.


Hey Joe, do they require mounting holes etc? I have a straight blade fork on the front of my cross bike with no holes whatsoever....

[jvp]

Yep, definitely checked that box with one of the most distinguished builders of fendered bicycles in the world.
Installing fenders and maintaining the smooth lines along the tire is definitely as much art as it is science.

The very front of my front honjo fender dips down a tiny tad...is it enough to fret? It doesn't rub the tire. I could add another strut or ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/002-1.jpg

[Ray]

The very front of my front honjo fender dips down a tiny tad...is it enough to fret? It doesn't rub the tire. I could add another strut or ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/002-1.jpg
I'd just bend it up a little bit. It'll create a small crease in the fender under the brake or fork crown, but you'll never see it with the fender on the bike. I have Honjos on my townie and I had to do this.

-Ray

[xjoex]

Hey Joe, do they require mounting holes etc? I have a straight blade fork on the front of my cross bike with no holes whatsoever....

You do need a hole in the crown to mount the front fender.

-Joe

[Erik.Lazdins]

How long a service life do you typically get from Honjos?

My first fender bike - installed honjos myself in early 2007 - Over 10,000 miles both fenders are now stained but remain silent and trouble free.

the front fender took me about 3 hours to install, the rear about 30 minutes. I did visit the rubber washer section of Lowes and that helped me come up with what was needed to support the front fender properly IMO.

[11.4]

The very front of my front honjo fender dips down a tiny tad...is it enough to fret? It doesn't rub the tire. I could add another strut or ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/002-1.jpg


This happens when your mounting bracket puts a strain on the curvature of the fenders. Looks like you used the little L-shaped stainless bracket. It has a different curvature from the fender itself and tends to force the front of the fender downwards (it can cause the fender to flatten down close to the tire behind the fork crown as well). Rather than bending the fender itself, fix the bracket. Usually a thin rubber or leather washer between the fender and the mounting bracket will relieve the pressure and cause the tip of the fender to lift up again. Worst case, just put the bracket in a vise and bend it slightly between the mounting holes (very slightly).

[54ny77]

having recently added a few grey hairs and developed entirely new curse words in my vocabulary while mounting those honjo's to my bike, i can say with reasonable certainty that: 1) assuming the front fork mounting is done at the caliper (i.e., a sheldon nut, not a daruma thingy), loosen that bolt completely, 2) pull the brackets at the bottom out of the fork clips, and 3) once everything's loose, you'll see as you bring the bottom part of the fender closer to the tire (by a mm or two) that the front effectively "pivots" (or points) up. the amount you bring the bottom of the fender closer to the tire is the amount of length you need to snip from the bracket. based on what those pictures look like, you'll want to do this in 1-2mm increments, at most. a little change in one spot goes a long way elsewhere....rightly or wrongly!

once you get that dialed in, tighten down the bolt at the fork crown (assuming you're not running a daruma bolt). bingo, you're done.

you'll get there. drink alot while doing this, it makes it more fun. ;)

oh and for what it's worth, i snipped the front of my fenders to extend about 6.5" beyond the front of the caliper. previously, it was around 9". that was too much, and bounced around on the tire if the road was really bumpy.

I'd just bend it up a little bit. It'll create a small crease in the fender under the brake or fork crown, but you'll never see it with the fender on the bike. I have Honjos on my townie and I had to do this.

-Ray

[palincss]

You do need a hole in the crown to mount the front fender.

-Joe

Note the fender attachment hardware here at the Jitensha.com site:
http://jitensha.com/eng/fndrhardwr_e.html

"Brackets allow hanging a fender from a brake bolt. Useful where a frameset has no braze-ons for fender attachment. Front hanger is at top right, rear is below."

http://jitensha.com/eng/images/frfndrhanger.jpg

http://jitensha.com/eng/images/rrfndrhngr.jpg

However I'm not sure the comment didn't refer to eyelets at the dropouts. I'd say yes you need eyelets, I wouldn't want to mount this type of fender with a P clamp.