NAHBS - Under the radar not in attendance [Archive]

djg

03-08-2010, 07:03 AM

I have been looking at the 'lists' of exhibitors at the NAHBS and SDBS and there seems to be a lot of new builders but guys that have been in the biz for years never seem to go to these shows. To name a few:

Hujsak
Havnoonian
Cherry
Gangl
Eisentraut
Stevenson
Kvale
Davidson
Rodriguez

What other builders are out there that have at least 10yr under there torch that don't go to these shows? Why don't they go? Cost?

mIKE

I'm sure that different folks have different reasons. Single-person shops tend to be populated by people who like to do things their own way -- no surprise that you'll get different responses, especially from established people with healthy wait lists.

I'm not sure about the generalization -- I wasn't at the show, but plenty of listed builders have been at it a long time, from folks like Richard Sachs, Tom K and Jeff Duser at Spectrum, Dario, etc., to people like David Kirk and Kelly Bedford, who are relatively new brands but have been designing and building bikes for a long time. As for emerging or new businesses -- maybe there's a special dearth of cash to finance the trip, but a special marketing interest in the exposure.

veloduffer

03-08-2010, 07:23 AM

I think some of these folks have already established reputations, so the upside might be limited as opposed to a new builder.

I would imagine there is a lot of logistics involved, particularly for a one-man shop - packing up bikes and displays, travel arrangements, car rental, cost. Cost, particularly in this economy, is a big hurdle and its measured against realized sales.

Also, the show concept is a bit mixed for a builder - do you show your normal wares or as in some cases, build a special "show" bike - like concept cars at the auto shows. "Show" bikes bring some free publicity but most of that is limited to a targeted audience (bike enthusiasts/riders) rather than the general public.

rockdude

03-08-2010, 07:37 AM

Mark Nobilette, who won an award last year, had a back problem this year and skipped the show.

oldpotatoe

03-08-2010, 07:51 AM

rugbysecondrow

03-08-2010, 08:29 AM

I wonder if having it at the far east coast matter to some. Also, Richmond is a nice city, but not necesarily a destination site for February.

Bob Ross

03-08-2010, 08:36 AM

Hujsak
Havnoonian
Cherry
Gangl
Eisentraut
Stevenson
Kvale
Davidson
Rodriguez

Just a guess here...but from what I can tell, none of the names on that list have reaped the rewards of a near-viral internet presence the way some younger brands have.

It would be interesting from a marketing perspective to see how many people who bought, say, a Kelly Bedford or a Mike Zanconato frame were members of this forum (or the one across the hall).

caleb

03-08-2010, 09:25 AM

To account for one on the list, a year or two ago when I last talked to Chris Kvale he wasn't making very many frames. Sounded like he was just doing some repairs, repaints, and a few frames to pass the snowy months, but not actively seeking orders. Some of the guys who have been building since the '60s or '70s might now be easing into retirement.

rdparadise

03-08-2010, 09:26 AM

I'm not sure Havnoonian is actually building custom frames anymore. I don't live to far from his shop but haven't heard of any new steeds coming from him in a while.

Here's a couple of other, well established builders that weren't in attendance:

Curt Goodrich
JP Weigle.

My take on why some of the names weren't in attendance is because it costs a lot of money to travel, bring your bikes, prep for the show and then the opportunity cost of losing a week behind the torch may just be too much.

Bob

William

03-08-2010, 09:29 AM

It would be interesting from a marketing perspective to see how many people who bought, say, a Kelly Bedford or a Mike Zanconato frame were members of this forum (or the one across the hall).

http://www.nordinho.net/vbull/blogs/jenaay/attachments/221d1234589820-raise-your-hand-if-you-miss-scouser-classroomgirlhandraised.jpg

fiamme red

03-08-2010, 09:33 AM

Here's a couple of other, well established builders that weren't in attendance:

Curt Goodrich
JP WeiglePeter Weigle was there, but not as an exhibitor.

rdparadise

03-08-2010, 09:33 AM

I stand corrected on Havnoonian frames. I went to his web site and he is listing the following:

Please check back for pictures and specs for frames in

Juvenile Track and Road

Adult Track and Road

Tandems

Touring

However, at this link he does show some road bikes.

http://www.hhracinggroup.com/

Go to the closeout link. Frames are selling for $495 and $800. This must be from overseas. I just can fathom Harry would be making frames this inexpensively in the U.S..

Bob

David Kirk

03-08-2010, 09:50 AM

I can't speak for anyone else and their motivation to either go or not go to the show but I can give you a bit of an idea on the costs involved.

With the show being on the east coast this year I had to ship everything to the show. I had a very modest booth and display and was able to keep it down to 6 boxes and about 230 pounds.

The cost of doing the show (shipping stuff back and forth, airline tickets, hotel, food ,taxi, booth, moving boxes from warehouse to booth, electricity, carpet in the booth, etc....) for me came to about $5000 this year. Add to that the fact that it takes a solid 3-4 weeks of my time to prepare for, attend and recover from and that means that 3-4 frames didn't get built during that time and that is a big hit to the company's bottom line income.

During the months before the show one watches the cash reserves get smaller and smaller as much of what is in the booth is customer bikes that will not be paid for until the show is over and the bikes are shipped off to them. That means the builder is floating the cost of materials, paint and components on however many bikes are in the booth. It's a tough nut to crack.

The show is of course much cheaper to do if you are within driving distance but since builders are spread out over the entire country that means that only a minority of the builders can actually drive to the show.

I'd say that between the actual cash out of pocket and the lost income (which BTW can not be recovered since most builder's income is not based on how many bikes they sell but on how many they build and ship and you never get those days and weeks back) that the builder who flies to the show needs to be able to absorb about a $10,000 hit. I suspect that with the economy doing what it's doing that many builders just can't put that much cash upfront and take the hit in cash-flow from the down time in production and therefore need to watch from the sidelines.

The show has become a double edged sword for many in that they can't afford to do the show and at the same time can't afford to miss it. I suspect that some builders who spend weeks or even months making 'concept' bikes for the show could put themselves out of business trying to make a splash and win an award in hopes that the award will make the phone ring off the hook.

Don't get me wrong. The show is a very good thing for a small business but it does come at a pretty high cost when you add it all up. So if you like the show and you like the idea that you can walk into a big room once a year and see the biggest and best collection of some of the world's finest bikes and shake the hands of the builders who made them then you should consider supporting them with your business. It makes all the difference.

See you in Austin.

Dave

Doug Fattic

03-08-2010, 10:15 AM

Veloduffer said essentially what I would say. The ratio of advantages to disadvantages is often just too much to justify the results.

I've been building and painting custom frames for 35 years so lets see what my thoughts might be to show in Austin next year (Forget for the moment that most of my time now is spent teaching framebuilding classes.) First off I've got to make some frames that can catch attention. The one on the order books just before the show might not be the best example. That can be a real effort with no immediate sale. 2nd, I've got to dream up an attractive display. A lot of thought and effort can go into how to hold them and the backdrop around them. 3rd, I need to get decent recent print materials to hand out. 4th, there are big costs with shipping, travel, etc. And 5th, Don Walker has a "strong personality".

Now what is all this effort going to get me? It is really the best way to market my work? First off, who is going to be the attendees at Austin? It is a long drive from major population centers outside of Texas. What percentage of this smaller number would still be interested in having a custom frame made in Niles, Michigan? My next goal would be to catch print or internet photo attention. This is difficult to calculate in advance and is risky. If I get a photo, it may be on page 4 after exclamations on other's beautiful work. I'd like my marketing dollars not to be mixed in with super competition.

An example I'd like to use is Bishop Bicycles in Baltimore, MD. I don't know him personally or anything about him really. I just met him at the show. I saw a frame in his booth that I thought was very attractive. It had simple lugs and were well filed (that is important to me). It had a very nice paint job by Dave Bohm. The main color was ivory and the lugs were a deep burgundy. His "Bishop" lettering on the down tube was surrounded in a gold leaf oval but not in an over-the-top kind of way. Perfect for a show bike. I called Dave to ask him if that frame got any internet attention and he said he hadn't seen any yet. Now since Baltimore is not so far from Richmond he might get some orders or attention that made the show worthwhile for him but I wonder. Of course now I do know something about him and was favorably impressed but I wonder how many others were too? And I'm not his market.

Now go back to my debit reason #5 in the first paragraph and read between the lines. It should be obvious that the ratio of positives to negatives is not going to be in every builder's favor to show at NAHBS.

Doug Fattic

caleb

03-08-2010, 10:41 AM

I suspect that some builders who spend weeks or even months making 'concept' bikes for the show could put themselves out of business trying to make a splash and win an award in hopes that the award will make the phone ring off the hook.

I wonder how many award winners no longer attend the show or might even now be out of business...?

NAHBS

03-08-2010, 03:15 PM

Doug,

For a guy who spent 3 days at the booth of one of your students in the Newbie Row (which, by the way, was priced at a discount so that a handful of new guys could get some exposure) you sure seemed pleased at the turnout of NAHBS and had no problem trying to sell your framebuilding class to the masses in attendance. From where I sit, this very fact invalidates your above opinion.

DW

Doug Fattic

03-08-2010, 05:06 PM

Don,

I think you just validated at least one of my opinions :). The OP asked why some experienced builders didn't/won't come. While it certainly is in the interest of many builders to show there, I was pointing out some reasons why, after weighing all the pros and cons, it wasn't advantageous for everyone. Those ideas stand on their own whether I or someone else presented them.

I helped a lot in making it possible for my apprentice to come because I thought the exposure would do him good. I wouldn't have done this if I didn't think your show wasn't a good platform for him to display his talents. He worked hard to make a good presentation. I wasn't there to promote my own business interests although neither did I try to avoid it if someone asked questions. The majority of my time during the show was spent visiting other booths. I held down the fort at his booth in a steady way only when he wanted to go to some seminars.

palincss

03-08-2010, 05:28 PM

Here's a couple of other, well established builders that weren't in attendance:

Curt Goodrich
JP Weigle.

Peter Weigle was there, but he wasn't exhibiting. In fact, they made him one of the judges.

pjmsj21

03-08-2010, 05:47 PM

This is slightly off topic as it relates to NAHBS but does relate to builders that are the "in" builders versus some under the radar builders.

Specifically I contacted Bill Davdison last spring to discuss building a frame for me. Bill, as many of you know is a very well respected Seattle builder who has been doing this a long time....several decades for sure. His wait time was very short and I could have the frame in about a couple of months....and this was late spring when I called, certainly one of the busier times of the year.

Contrast this to a relatively young builder, who will remain nameless, but was very well recieved at NAHBS, and has been building I would estimate under ten years at the very most and his wait time was three and a half years. Both builders are priced similarly.

Why is there such disparity?

1centaur

03-08-2010, 05:52 PM

The young guy has interesting visual details that appeal to a broader audience and his work has been widely viewed and lauded on the Net?

Waldo

03-08-2010, 05:56 PM

Why is there such disparity?

Sex (internet) appeal

NAHBS

03-08-2010, 07:01 PM

I think this is a useful discussion, and I�d like to comment on a few of the opinions expressed. On the subject of my strong personality, I'm guilty as charged. I suppose this is one of the traits that helps me fit in to the frame building community and I think that the show wouldnt be what it has become without it.

There are several reasons that builders do not attend NAHBS. I am sure that cost is one, although if we read Dave Kirk�s enlightening post we can see that in the bigger picture the cost is justifiable even to a one-man shop owner.

One thing that interests me is the number of exhibitors from overseas who see value in having a booth at NAHBS. In 2010 this number was 18, up 73% over the next highest year, 2009. From what I hear, this trend should continue with an even greater number coming from overseas in 2012.

According to an exhibitor survey we made in 2008, 36% of frames are sold to customers outside a 500-mile radius, and 11% are sold overseas. Therefore, we can make a reasoned guess that almost 50% of the business generated at the Austin show will be for builders from outside Texas and from customers who have flown in for the show.

For sure, NAHBS would be an outstanding launch pad for all new builders, but as an industry we owe it to the customers to put some filters in place. A bicycle frame builder has a lot of responsibility. I know I�m leaving money on the table by not admitting all who wish to exhibit at NAHBS, but by setting a high bar I believe I am doing right by the industry in the long run. The top quality new builders and those most determined will make it through their first two years and 50 frames, and then they will get to exhibit at the show as an experienced and reliable frame builder. As mentioned in my previous post, we have a limited number of tables for new builders. These tables are in a special section of the show hall where customers know they are talking to rookies. We have a Rookie of the Year award too. Of course I support the new guys, but as mentioned earlier, we have a responsibility to the customers too.

From what I can see, the show has great value to many of the veteran builders. This year there were several. Off the cuff: Richard Sachs, Mike DeSalvo, Craig Calfee, Brompton, Pegoretti, De Rosa, Spectrum, Independent Fabrication, Bilenky, Co-Motion, Brew, Cherubim, Dean, Groovy, Iglehart, Retrotec, Moots, Peter Mooney, Serotta, Seven, Strong and myself� and I�m sure many more.

The Austin show is shaping up well already. It�s going to be huge. Tune into the Facebook page for the latest information. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=35232163847&ref=nf

DW

retrogrouchy

03-08-2010, 07:28 PM

I think what we're seeing is that Marketing is (naturally...) an extremely important factor in all of this (selling of frames to paying customers). In my opinion, the two best marketers (at least, of lugged steel frames) in frame-dom in the USA are Richard Sachs and Grant Peterson. In that order. They are vastly different, and Grant doesn't build anything, whereas Richard builds everything himself, but each is very effective in his respective niche. Richard has totally figured out branding, brand management, target demography, using the internet effectively, and what his true competition is (for Dollars, not among his peers). As an exclusive producer of a desireable, extremely-low-volume product, he 'gets it' regarding burnishing your brand. He also has the palmares, product, and legitimacy to pull it off. There are what, perhaps one or two dozen one-man-operation-except-sometimes-not-paint American framebuilders that have been building continuously since the mid-1970s and still make a (generally very modest) living doing it? Think of Eisentraut, Baylis, Gordon, Weigle, Nobilette, Kvale, Davidson, and perhaps a half-dozen others that I can't think of right now. Most of those that I just mentioned (with Mark N. perhaps an exception) probably build less than twenty-five frames per year now. Some actually build less than five.

Grant Peterson comes from ten years of being 'in charge of' Marketing and bicycle design at Bridgestone USA, so, uh, naturally, he is pretty good at Marketing and designing bicycles (frames, really). Some folks like 'em, and some don't, but he has been very effective at creating noise around his brand (some of it undesireable, in my opinion, as I prefer the more laid-back approach, which doesn't really work very well in today's world of screamers and information overload, but that and three bucks will get you nice cup of coffee these days).

Remember: 'you're not selling the steak, you're selling the sizzle.' This is very, very true in the very-nichey market of lugged steel frames.

Some folks at NAHBS, even though they are very young and/or inexperienced, have been able to generate serious sizzle. This is a good thing, in general, but sometimes it lasts, sometimes it doesn't. My personal opinion is that production 'volumes' of even many of these buzz-generators are very low indeed. Many 'top tier' and 'next-tier' young-turk builders also produce and sell about 5 - 25 frames per year. Almost regardless of selling price, it is very difficult to make significant profits on such a small volume. Yes, Richard can make good money at his still-modest volume level, but remember that he became 'an overnight success' after about 25 years of laboring over a hot torch, and after discovering brand management and the Internet. It ain't easy, folks.... Most of these framebuilders make more money repainting miscellaneous frames than building new ones. I am often in awe of them, as I've built some frames myself and have an idea of what it takes.

So, for many long-time, relatively 'unsung hero-type' builders, the probability of becoming another 'overnight success' is small, and a lot of those folks aren't really of the personality type that likes to toot his/her own horn to begin with, so it can be doubly daunting. Marketing is work, and not always of the fun variety. I think NAHBS is cool, though, so keep on keepin' on, Don!

weisan

03-08-2010, 08:00 PM

If I may interject here real quick...thanks to the OP for starting this thread, GREAT discussion going on here, insightful, honest, multi-faceted. Appreciate the people who chimed in so far.
Now we just have to cross our fingers that nobody goes off and make some stupid one-off statements which they can't substantiate or has a personal agenda. That will kill this thread really fast, hope not.

Okay, please continue. :D

Ahneida Ride

03-08-2010, 08:06 PM

Kelly and I traveled by van (bikes in back) to 2009 and 2010 shows

This cut expenses dramatically!

Building of bikes / transportation of bikes is a significant cost.

Getting "stuff" to the show is a non trivial endeavor.

David Kirk

03-08-2010, 08:18 PM

......... There are several reasons that builders do not attend NAHBS. I am sure that cost is one, although if we read Dave Kirk�s enlightening post we can see that in the bigger picture the cost is justifiable even to a one-man shop owner. ..................DW

With all due respect this is not what I said or meant to imply. I honestly don't know if the cost is justifiable for me or any other builder. It's indirect and very hard to say with any certainty.

For a builder with any backlog the show makes little sense on the surface. If the builder has a consistent backlog of any length then their income is based purely on how many bikes go into the Fed Ex truck every day/week/month. It's not the sales deposits that the builder makes a living from of course but it's the final payment made when the frameset/bike ships. So any time at all away from the bench eats into the bottom line. I think my previous post gives a rough idea of the costs involved for a one/two man shop and it doesn't take a Harvard economist to do the basic math that this really doesn't add up to put the builder in the black. If the builder has a backlog then any sales he makes due to the show just makes the backlog longer and does not in any way add to the yearly income of the builder. And FWIW..... adding to the backlog is a loosing deal for the builder as it just makes more work for them with no added income. Managing the backlog takes time and having anything more than one bike in front of you at any given time adds nothing to the bottom line - it does add job security which a very good thing but it doesn't put money in the builder's pocket.

I personally have about a 1 year backlog so it doesn't make much sense for me to take the time and money to attend the show. It's money directly out of my pocket that I will not recoup in a short period. It's hard to say but I might recoup it in a long period. If I skipped the show my production would go up by about 1 month's worth and therefore my yearly income would also go up by about 1/12th.

So why do I go? Aside from the top shelf whiskey in the Anvil booth I go to meet current and past customers and potentially make new ones. It's a central location where I can meet so many people that will never come to Montana for a face to face chat. I go to the show to catch up with old friends that I would not see otherwise......... and I go to the show to make sure I have a continued presence on the handbuilt scene. That and it's fun. A huge amount of money and work but it's fun.

I hope this sets the record straight.

dave

Louis

03-08-2010, 10:04 PM

If the builder has a backlog then any sales he makes due to the show just makes the backlog longer and does not in any way add to the yearly income of the builder.

A growing backlog may be a sign that it's OK to tweak your pricing structure and is always one way to manage the queue and profit from good buzz / marketing.

I think it makes sense for some builders to increase their prices faster than the rate of inflation or their cost of materials. Opportunity cost of their labor is certainly part of it.

BengeBoy

03-08-2010, 10:36 PM

Davidson
Rodriguez

Bill Davidson (of Seattle) was at the NAHBS show two years ago in Portland. He also showed at the Oregon Handbuilt Bike Show last October.

Both Davidson and Rodriguez (also of Seattle) also show at the Seattle Bike Expo, which is billed as the largest consumer bike show in the U.S. (I don't know if that's true, just repeating the claim.). Rodriguez also does an annual "open house" at their bike shop, R&E Cycles in Seattle.

Thus, I'm concluding that (for now) Davidson and Rodriguez appear to favor Pacific NW shows.

Also - someone mentioned backlogs. My Davidson took about 10 to 12 weeks from design to delivery.

veloduffer

03-08-2010, 10:57 PM

One other observation, the success of NAHBS with increased exhibitors also means increased competition for the builder. I don't know if the growth of the customers has been commensurate with the increased number of builders. While the industry trend is good, what is sustainable so that a builder can earn a living is hard to determine.

Ironically, this is one of the few manufacturing industries that is growing in the US, rather than being outsourced. :beer:

I think that the show is a good platform and am glad that there is a dedicated area for the new & upcoming builders. Everyone had to start somewhere and it seems like there are good sources of knowledge that will keep the craft alive. :banana:

Louis

03-08-2010, 11:03 PM

Ironically, this is one of the few manufacturing industries that is growing in the US, rather than being outsourced.

Maybe for high end. For mass-market that train left the station a long long time ago.

Cantdog

03-09-2010, 05:50 AM

One thing I would change for next time would be a little more space for the booths...I assume builders paid by size, but there were a bunch of booths that I didn't walk into because I couldnt turn around without knocking things over. There were so many folks around that it was hard to not get in someone's way.

Great show, but as a consumer I saw it more as a chance to see old friends than look at bikes. I found myself falling into the same pattern you do at huge car shows--quickly overloaded by all things shiny and the eyes kinda gloss over....and you spend the next 6 hours wandering around. Honestly I think this is the kind of event that is really good for the internet, I think I was as excited to go as I was to get constant twitter/blog/forum updates the previous years. When I got home and started seeing writeups on the show I realized how much I missed. While I won't be attending next year, in the future I will attend if it is local, or if it coincides with another event.

As far as bike sales from the show go, I have a friend who bought a frame from a show builder just because it was the first one he saw when he walked in! So to builders next year...grab that front booth!

One of my favorite aspects was hearing rumors as to why someone was or wasnt there...the politics of the handmade bicycle show is incredibly fascinating. Everyone talks to each other about everyone else assuming you don't know the person in question, but it's such a small community that you inevitably have at least a minor connection to them. Interesting place to be a fly on the wall for sure.

sashae

03-09-2010, 06:54 AM

A few more attendees not there... Bill Holland, John Hollands and Koichi Yamaguchi. Good show, either way. The regional flavor to things is kinda neat -- I expect the Austin show will have more SW/MW builders.

Smiley

03-09-2010, 07:24 AM

Great show, but as a consumer I saw it more as a chance to see old friends than look at bikes. I found myself falling into the same pattern you do at huge car shows--quickly overloaded by all things shiny and the eyes kinda gloss over....and you spend the next 6 hours wandering around. .

Spot on, maybe we should plan rides or something during NAHBS since I felt that it would have been nice to do group rides during my time in Richmond especially if the weather was better. Smiley

Charles M

03-09-2010, 08:01 AM

Remember: 'you're not selling the steak, you're selling the sizzle.' This is very, very true in the very-nichey market of lugged steel frames.

I think I agree with what you're whole post says to a big degree and don't at all mean to take the above out of context.

That said, I think this show, far more than something like interbike, is about the steak.

I dont think a new builder comes in the door and creates any buzz at all without bringing something great to the table... Two fav tables at the show were the new guy winner and the kid in the exceptionally small space next to him.

The same had to be said about the veteran builders at some point in the past, though I will say that once a brand image is created, it can take on a life of it's own that allows for a strong presance at NAHBS without much in the way of anything relatively special in fabrication.

There's the (dry) rub...

Sticking to the meat theme, This show had relatively less meat on the bone IMO than last year in the way of highly detailed work. I dont mean that there wasn't still fantastic stuff, but for me it was a bit less than I hoped for and Less than past years.

I said it openly at the show, I think JB could have swapped paint and logo's on a lot of the stuff there and not many folks would have noticed...

Frankly I expected more this year and I don't mean greater size / quantity. I think this year was well run and well attended, but I left wanting better / more special bikes and especially from some of the top guys.

I really don't mean it as an insult to the great gear that's produced every day, but if I'm taking two planes to get to a small town, I want more of the jaw dropping stuff rather than the more basic examples of work that seemed to be the order of the day this year.

Lifelover

03-09-2010, 09:11 AM

I think I agree with what you're whole post says to a big degree and don't at all mean to take the above out of context.

That said, I think this show, far more than something like interbike, is about the steak.

I dont think a new builder comes in the door and creates any buzz at all without bringing something great to the table... Two fav tables at the show were the new guy winner and the kid in the exceptionally small space next to him.

The same had to be said about the veteran builders at some point in the past, though I will say that once a brand image is created, it can take on a life of it's own that allows for a strong presance at NAHBS without much in the way of anything relatively special in fabrication.

There's the (dry) rub...

Sticking to the meat theme, This show had relatively less meat on the bone IMO than last year in the way of highly detailed work. I dont mean that there wasn't still fantastic stuff, but for me it was a bit less than I hoped for and Less than past years.

I said it openly at the show, I think JB could have swapped paint and logo's on a lot of the stuff there and not many folks would have noticed...

Frankly I expected more this year and I don't mean greater size / quantity. I think this year was well run and well attended, but I left wanting better / more special bikes and especially from some of the top guys.

I really don't mean it as an insult to the great gear that's produced every day, but if I'm taking two planes to get to a small town, I want more of the jaw dropping stuff rather than the more basic examples of work that seemed to be the order of the day this year.

I'll start by saying that I fully appreciate every builder that shows and all the work that Don does to put this together. Regardless of their reasons, it present an amazing opportunity for the average Joe to see great frames in person. I hope all involved benefit.

I agree with you fully about wanting to see some bling. However, there seems to be another group of attendees that complain about the bling and claim to only want to see "real" bikes being built for real customers. If it wasn't about the bling there would be no NAHBS, Joe Bell would not be in business and all lugs would look the same.

For my money, I enjoyed seeing the show bikes as well as the raw bikes. The run of the mill bikes (even high quality ones) can be seen everyday on every cycling forum on the internet.

It would be very interesting to somehow determine how many frames are sold because of NAHBS. My assumption is that very few frames are sold that would not be sold otherwise. Clearly there might be some shuffling of where the orders are placed.

I look forward to seeing the growth of NAHBS and other shows like it. NAHBS will always be the "king" but I suspect it will top out and there will be other shows nipping at it's heals. I would love for there to be a show every year in driving distance from Va Beach and that can not happen if NAHBS is the only player.

BumbleBeeDave

03-09-2010, 11:59 AM

I really don't mean it as an insult to the great gear that's produced every day, but if I'm taking two planes to get to a small town, I want more of the jaw dropping stuff rather than the more basic examples of work that seemed to be the order of the day this year.

Having seen your absolutely incredible white Meivici, I think I can take a guess at what "jaw dropping" means to you.

For me this gets back to the basic conflict for any small builder . . . not every bike someone like Dave Kirk produces is going to be "jaw dropping" in the way I think you mean. I am confident that every bike Dave produces involves faultless attention to detail and the finest craftsmanship you are going to find. BUT if he happens to have a run of customers in the 6 months leading up to the show who are more interested in the faultless attention to detail and fine craftsmanship, but who all want one-color paint jobs and no chrome lugs, then he has a problem.

To come up with a blingy bike to attract attention he has to take time out of his paid orders to make up something special. He has to choose some size to make it in, so he has to take a best guess and hope he can sell it to someone at the show--or some other customer for some price that comes as close as possible to at least breaking even for the time and labor he put into it.

I think Dave's original post above is very enlightening as to the real monetary cost involved in exhibiting at the show if it doesn't happen to be taking place within a day's drive of your home base. That's a LOT of money for a one man operation to absorb and I saw Dave's booth at last year's show. It was nice, but it was not large and didn't come anywhere near approaching the size and staging of someone like Sacha or Richie.

There's also the issue of having it in that "small town" you mention. To me neither Richmond or Austin are "small towns." But it just goes one more step to highlight the problems that Don has in trying to make everyone happy when he puts on such a show. Heck, I'd likely quickly develop a "strong personality" too if I had to constantly contend with the impossible demands of trying to satisfy so wide a spectrum of makers and attendees who have such vocally stated likes and dislikes!

I was the route planner for several years for the local MS bike tour, which never had more than about 200 riders, but it was impossible to make everybody happy. It was either "too hilly" or "not hilly enough" or too close to town with too much traffic or too far out of town and isolated. It had too many highway crossing or too many railroad grade crossing or the pavement wasn't high enough quality or . . . . AAAAGH!

Good luck to Don. I think he is doing great just to make the damn thing keep happening! You GO, Don!

BBD

David Kirk

03-09-2010, 12:19 PM

For me this gets back to the basic conflict for any small builder . . . not every bike someone like Dave Kirk produces is going to be "jaw dropping" in the way I think you mean. I am confident that every bike Dave produces involves faultless attention to detail and the finest craftsmanship you are going to find. BUT if he happens to have a run of customers in the 6 months leading up to the show who are more interested in the faultless attention to detail and fine craftsmanship, but who all want one-color paint jobs and no chrome lugs, then he has a problem.

BBD

Right you are my stinger tailed friend. With the exception of one bike this year that was mine, all the bikes I bring to the show are sold customer bikes that represent what I build and ship 52 weeks a year. I've toyed with the idea of making show specials and even when I set cost and time commitments aside I opt out. For me, and I suspect others, it boils down to wanting to show what you sell and to sell what you show. When I think of doing something with lots of bling I ask myself do I want that to represent my brand and will I want to do it again should a customer see it and want one just like it. If the answer is no then I don't make or show it.

Dave

BumbleBeeDave

03-09-2010, 12:22 PM

. . . but I think this is what you want your business to be known for--that faultless attention to detail, perfect craftsmanship, and sublime ride quality from customers who appreciate those particular values that you also value in a high quality custom made bicycle.

Not chromed lugs . . . Nothing wrong with chromed lugs or bling. But they just don't impress me as being the Dave Kirk I know.

BBD

veloduffer

03-09-2010, 12:42 PM

Here's another observation/question - why does Richard Sachs set up a display when his book is closed to new customers? If it were just to catch up to old friends, he could travel without a display.

weisan

03-09-2010, 12:46 PM

This is the one of the best threads, if not THE best, I have read in the history of this board as far as i can remember....meaty discussion, insightful and valuable information, honest and respectful exchanges. I really appreciate everyone who contributed.

I think there's something to be learned here by the organizer of the event, the participating exhibitors, and the attendees.

As practical as it is, money or "the return on investment" is not and cannot be the main determinant for everything. If it is, some part of us die with it...whether it's the appreciation for tradition and craftsmanship, mutual support and friendship, or a sense of purpose in what we do. They all involve some level of sacrifice.

At the end of the day, is it worth it?

Only the individuals can answer, based on what they held as their core values.

BumbleBeeDave

03-09-2010, 12:50 PM

fiamme red

03-09-2010, 12:54 PM

veloduffer

03-09-2010, 12:59 PM

http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachstoys.html

He still sells jerseys, t-shirts, bags, caps, lugs, etc.

Given the cost of getting down there, that's a lot of t-shirts, bags, etc. to sell. :) He' not in the accessory business - that's Blackburn. :rolleyes:

Charles M

03-09-2010, 01:07 PM

A few of my favorites didnt have chromed anything... Hell one of em was matte finished.

Great execution of detail was on offer through out NAHBS.

I just wished for more of that detail work on a few more examples here or there.

avalonracing

03-09-2010, 01:13 PM

So if you like the show and you like the idea that you can walk into a big room once a year and see the biggest and best collection of some of the world's finest bikes and shake the hands of the builders who made them then you should consider supporting them with your business. It makes all the difference.

Dave,

I met you and Karin at the show and spoke with you for a few minutes about your brazing, your wonderful red Terraplane and your great, new logo that Karin designed. I own (and have owned) some very nice hand-built bikes from some of the larger manufacturers: Serotta, Seven, Merlin and S-Works & Klein (back in the day) among others. After speaking with you and a few of the other builders at the show I don't know if I'll be able to not buy a custom frame from a smaller builder for my next bike. It just seems like the right thing to do on many levels.

More importantly I dragged a couple of friends from Baltimore to the Richmond show. They haven't been riding a racing for years like me but they both ride and appreciate nice bicycles (one is on my old Legend Ti). To get them to go I told them that we don't usually get an opportunity like this on the east coast. Well, they were both really impressed and I think it is extremely likely that they will both buy custom, hand-built bikes when they are ready for a new ride. This is directly because of the east coast show and because of speaking with guys like you about the craft.

Thanks for coming east and I hope it pays for itself many times over.
-Robb

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 02:44 PM

[QUOTE=David Kirk]With all due respect this is not what I said or meant to imply. I honestly don't know if the cost is justifiable for me or any other builder. It's indirect and very hard to say with any certainty.

For a builder with any backlog the show makes little sense on the surface. If the builder has a consistent backlog of any length then their income is based purely on how many bikes go into the Fed Ex truck every day/week/month. It's not the sales deposits that the builder makes a living from of course but it's the final payment made when the frameset/bike ships. <snip>

Dave:

Not at all sayin' this is you, but What if the builder in question wants to have only two frames per week go onto the Fed-X truck?

Well.... If a builder takes $2000 deposits from 100 customers in a year, his income is $200,000 and all he has done so far is give out places in line..... Assuming he completes and delivers about 50 framesets per year, that's another $100,000 in final payments (assuming $4000 pricing, which is high, I know, but some can command that). So his income is now $300,000. I'd love to have a bidness like that (and there aren't many who can even dream of doing this, I know...).

Just sayin'....

goonster

03-09-2010, 02:48 PM

If a builder takes $2000 deposits from 100 customers in a year, his income is $200,000 and all he has done so far is give out places in line..... Assuming he completes and delivers about 50 framesets per year, that's another $100,000 in final payments (assuming $4000 pricing, which is high, I know, but some can command that). So his income is now $300,000.
That's so . . . sustainable!

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 03:03 PM

Yup, and eventually the backlog gets to a point where said builder is satisfied (or even a bit worried) and closes said list. Now he/she can potentially chip away at that backlog for years and not run out of business! Whoa....

It's brilliant brand management (again...). Wish I were smart enough (and skilled/talented enough, there's the 'other' rub) to accomplish it!

MattTuck

03-09-2010, 03:55 PM

Frankly I expected more this year and I don't mean greater size / quantity. I think this year was well run and well attended, but I left wanting better / more special bikes and especially from some of the top guys.

I wasn't there, so i can't comment on the quality of the bikes on display. At the end of the day though, bikes are made to be ridden, not hang in galleries or be displayed on the internet.

That being the case, the whole idea of sending all these frames to a central location to be ogled is a bit antithetical to the concept of what a bike really is (a transportation machine.)

Moreover, since ride qualities of a custom bike are so specific to the intended rider (in terms of his/her size, weight, riding style, types of rides they do, etc.) and thus very subjective to others, people use the "skill" elements of a frame as a proxy for quality. So, they look at things like lugs and paint and fillets and other 'attention to detail' type observables as a SIGNAL of how good the builder is at producing a rideable frame.

maybe there is a branching of the craft here, between two distinct approaches to building bikes. On one hand, a builder can be an artist who uses the bike as his medium (like a sculptor carves out of marble). The other (and in my opinion, the better) way to think about it is to build an uncompromising and high quality bike (vehicle) that performs well for the intended use AND has some artistic or design embelishments.

I think that the latter of the two produces less "wow" bikes. But that is just the reality of building useful tools.

If you truly want to have bikes be the medium, it stops being about the machine and starts being about the art.

has bikes as art, and art as bikes.

MarleyMon

03-09-2010, 03:57 PM

... - why does Richard Sachs set up a display when his book is closed to new customers? ...
He is selling the industry.
He loves handmade bikes and wants to see more people enjoy them
and to see good builders make a living by building good bikes.

Lifelover

03-09-2010, 05:01 PM

Here's another observation/question - why does Richard Sachs set up a display when his book is closed to new customers? If it were just to catch up to old friends, he could travel without a display.

Great question and I would love to see it posted across the hall where he may answer it directly. He had one of the bigger areas at this show.

I assume that for him it is almost an industry type event. He sells his lugs (and tube sets?) to many builders.

Additionally, it about branding. His booth was very heavy handed as far as branding and I think every bike he had (painted) was his team colors. Sachs is a fairly young man and although his books are closed I suspected he hopes/needs an income beyond his current back log.

Pete Serotta

03-09-2010, 05:08 PM

and I assure you "just sayin" that your scenario is not close to what goes on in the real world. I will just leave it at "Who gets 2K per deposit and who gets 100 orders per year?" No one I know or have known.

Please don't add negativeness to the business that my builder friends love and work VERY HARD at to make a living.

I will pay you a very nice bottle of red for finding a builder who takes that amount in deposit or a small builder (one man operation) that get 100 orders in any year.

[QUOTE=David Kirk]With all due respect this is not what I said or meant to imply. I honestly don't know if the cost is justifiable for me or any other builder. It's indirect and very hard to say with any certainty.

For a builder with any backlog the show makes little sense on the surface. If the builder has a consistent backlog of any length then their income is based purely on how many bikes go into the Fed Ex truck every day/week/month. It's not the sales deposits that the builder makes a living from of course but it's the final payment made when the frameset/bike ships. <snip>

Dave:

Not at all sayin' this is you, but What if the builder in question wants to have only two frames per week go onto the Fed-X truck?

Well.... If a builder takes $2000 deposits from 100 customers in a year, his income is $200,000 and all he has done so far is give out places in line..... Assuming he completes and delivers about 50 framesets per year, that's another $100,000 in final payments (assuming $4000 pricing, which is high, I know, but some can command that). So his income is now $300,000. I'd love to have a bidness like that (and there aren't many who can even dream of doing this, I know...).

Just sayin'....

rugbysecondrow

03-09-2010, 05:09 PM

I think your math is a little too simple.

A) You can't take a deposit for double the amount of product that goes out the door for long. It will catch up and reconcile.

B) You leave out hard and soft costs here, it is not all income. I am not an expert at all, but Mr. Kirk knows what materials cost, tool maintenance, utilities, health insurance, taxes...you get the picture.

I am not one to delve into other peoples business, but it is important to know that the money that comes in for a frame purchase is not income and only Mr. Kirk (and maybe the IRS) knows what that is. None of our bidness.

[QUOTE=David Kirk]With all due respect this is not what I said or meant to imply. I honestly don't know if the cost is justifiable for me or any other builder. It's indirect and very hard to say with any certainty.

For a builder with any backlog the show makes little sense on the surface. If the builder has a consistent backlog of any length then their income is based purely on how many bikes go into the Fed Ex truck every day/week/month. It's not the sales deposits that the builder makes a living from of course but it's the final payment made when the frameset/bike ships. <snip>

Dave:

Not at all sayin' this is you, but What if the builder in question wants to have only two frames per week go onto the Fed-X truck?

Well.... If a builder takes $2000 deposits from 100 customers in a year, his income is $200,000 and all he has done so far is give out places in line..... Assuming he completes and delivers about 50 framesets per year, that's another $100,000 in final payments (assuming $4000 pricing, which is high, I know, but some can command that). So his income is now $300,000. I'd love to have a bidness like that (and there aren't many who can even dream of doing this, I know...).

Just sayin'....

Pete Serotta

03-09-2010, 05:10 PM

You are way off base, besides not showing good manners... CHILL and go for a ride.~~~
Yup, and eventually the backlog gets to a point where said builder is satisfied (or even a bit worried) and closes said list. Now he/she can potentially chip away at that backlog for years and not run out of business! Whoa....

It's brilliant brand management (again...). Wish I were smart enough (and skilled/talented enough, there's the 'other' rub) to accomplish it!

conorb

03-09-2010, 05:38 PM

<snip>...

I really don't mean it as an insult to the great gear that's produced every day, but if I'm taking two planes to get to a small town, I want more of the jaw dropping stuff rather than the more basic examples of work that seemed to be the order of the day this year.

We didn't attend this year's NAHBS but have been to several including both in San Jose and Portland.

As a small shop with a limited output and limited resources (our own hands and time) we only build bikes for customers and it's these bikes that we take to shows.

Some bikes may be more over the top than others but we don't do it unless the customer wants it. We just don't have the time, energy or resources to do one-off show bikes for the very reasons eloquently stated earlier by Mr. Kirk. Another reason that we don't do one-off show bikes is that we simply don't want to - we'd rather work on bikes in the queue and make our customers happy.

In Portland our booth was next to the Naked booth and our approaches we're quite different and obviously so - and hey, just to be clear - nothing at all against Sam and Andrea. It's just our approach is different, not better. I saw lots of published pictures of the Naked bike taken from our booth. The buzz was palatable.

NAHBS is a great event and I'm hopeful that we'll be able to attend in Austin next year, we'll have to see how things unfold. But we won't be bringing any conceptual brake levers or stainless steel tubular saddles or whatever the hot, in-thing to have is for next year.

Just bikes for real customers.

conorb

sevencyclist

03-09-2010, 05:44 PM

Collection of $4000 on a frame is not pure income. There are costs to paint (need to pay JB), ship the bike to paint (fedex), pay for PegoRichie tubing, pay for lugs construction, sliver for brazing, and shipping costs to getting those material. Ane these are only some items in the the non-fixed overhead costs.

Profit on stickers, T shirts, lugs, and bags are small, and no way approaches $10,000 that David Kirk had estimates.

IMHO (not from him, but my opinion only): e-RICHIE is in this to support the industry which he loves, just like his generosity with lending help and advise to newcomers to the profession, just like his support of cyclocross by hosting a team, and just like his involvement with the Builder's Collective. The cost calculation that we saw above only makes me more impressed with what he is doing for the industry.

Charles M

03-09-2010, 06:24 PM

I wasn't there, so i can't comment on the quality of the bikes on display. At the end of the day though, bikes are made to be ridden, not hang in galleries or be displayed on the internet.

That being the case, the whole idea of sending all these frames to a central location to be ogled is a bit antithetical to the concept of what a bike really is (a transportation machine.)

Moreover, since ride qualities of a custom bike are so specific to the intended rider (in terms of his/her size, weight, riding style, types of rides they do, etc.) and thus very subjective to others, people use the "skill" elements of a frame as a proxy for quality. So, they look at things like lugs and paint and fillets and other 'attention to detail' type observables as a SIGNAL of how good the builder is at producing a rideable frame.

maybe there is a branching of the craft here, between two distinct approaches to building bikes. On one hand, a builder can be an artist who uses the bike as his medium (like a sculptor carves out of marble). The other (and in my opinion, the better) way to think about it is to build an uncompromising and high quality bike (vehicle) that performs well for the intended use AND has some artistic or design embelishments.

I think that the latter of the two produces less "wow" bikes. But that is just the reality of building useful tools.

If you truly want to have bikes be the medium, it stops being about the machine and starts being about the art.

has bikes as art, and art as bikes.

All that said Matt, I ride everything I have and have never worried about the cost or time that the builder or I have into something as making something less rideable

Doing more of the special detail work to a bike that I'm talking about and was wishing for at the show doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to fantastic ride and function or change my desire to ride it. The opposite happens for me...

I wouldn't assume that detail work is compensation for poor function at all (and don't think that's what you're saying).

I said it at the start and mean it. None of what I'm saying here should be interpreted as a negative reflection of what was at the show. I tried to make that point plainly enough that folks wouldn't feel like the fact that they may not have produced something a little more over the top / off the beaten path / OUTstanding visually, doesn't take away from what they do.

I get that there were fantastic representations of what people build every day and understand why some builders stuck to that. But for a gathering like this I just wished for a few more things I don't see every day.

As for sniping at E-R...

Really, Honestly... Good luck there.

Not only do the folks with a bit more exposure to him just look at you and laugh (for the most part), but I promise you Richard has loads more important things to think about. Or rather that crap like that is just a lot less important than the things he enjoys...

;)

Louis

03-09-2010, 06:24 PM

At the end of the day though, bikes are made to be ridden, not hang in galleries or be displayed on the internet.

As I recall from last year, lots and lots of the bikes I saw did not look like they were truly intended to be ridden. They had so much "bling" (even utilitarian city models with racks galore) that it was clear they were designed primarily to catch your eye.

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 06:56 PM

You are way off base, besides not showing good manners... CHILL and go for a ride.~~~
I'll stand behind all I've said. Wasn't meant to be problematic for anyone, but I guess you interpreted it that way. Not sure why.

Pete Serotta

03-09-2010, 07:04 PM

But please keep in mind that if it borders on a personal attack (in my view) against the builders, you will be banned, With 12 posts to your credit, I am assuming that some items are being lost in the electronic translation.

I'll stand behind all I've said. Wasn't meant to be problematic for anyone, but I guess you interpreted it that way. Not sure why.

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 07:10 PM

think your math is a little too simple.

A) You can't take a deposit for double the amount of product that goes out the door for long. It will catch up and reconcile.

B) You leave out hard and soft costs here, it is not all income. I am not an expert at all, but Mr. Kirk knows what materials cost, tool maintenance, utilities, health insurance, taxes...you get the picture.

I am not one to delve into other peoples business, but it is important to know that the money that comes in for a frame purchase is not income and only Mr. Kirk (and maybe the IRS) knows what that is. None of our bidness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by retrogrouchy
[QUOTE=David Kirk]With all due respect this is not what I said or meant to imply. I honestly don't know if the cost is justifiable for me or any other builder. It's indirect and very hard to say with any certainty.

For a builder with any backlog the show makes little sense on the surface. If the builder has a consistent backlog of any length then their income is based purely on how many bikes go into the Fed Ex truck every day/week/month. It's not the sales deposits that the builder makes a living from of course but it's the final payment made when the frameset/bike ships. <snip>

Dave:

Not at all sayin' this is you, but What if the builder in question wants to have only two frames per week go onto the Fed-X truck?

Well.... If a builder takes $2000 deposits from 100 customers in a year, his income is $200,000 and all he has done so far is give out places in line..... Assuming he completes and delivers about 50 framesets per year, that's another $100,000 in final payments (assuming $4000 pricing, which is high, I know, but some can command that). So his income is now $300,000. I'd love to have a bidness like that (and there aren't many who can even dream of doing this, I know...).

To reply to A), yes you can - that's what creates wait lists!
To reply to B), Actually, it *is* all income, by definition. It's not all profit, not by a long shot.... Income and profit (or lack of it) are two different things. I would totally agree with anyone who would say that the vast majority of custom framebuilders do not make much profit at the end of the year, if any! That's one of the (many) reasons why I said in another post that I'm in awe of them. Heck, Liability Insurance alone is a killer cost. Not to mention Health Insurance, rent, utilities, consumables, freight costs, component costs, and on and on and on.

rugbysecondrow

03-09-2010, 07:22 PM

To reply to A), yes you can - that's what creates wait lists!
To reply to B), Actually, it *is* all income, by definition. It's not all profit, not by a long shot.... Income and profit (or lack of it) are two different things. I would totally agree with anyone who would say that the vast majority of custom framebuilders do not make much profit at the end of the year, if any! That's one of the (many) reasons why I said in another post that I'm in awe of them. Heck, Liability Insurance alone is a killer cost. Not to mention Health Insurance, rent, utilities, consumables, freight costs, component costs, and on and on and on.

Based on your math, the point is that at some time he will stop taking orders if the wait list gets too long and out of control, he will only then get the cash that comes in from the finished frames out the door. All you are doing is front loading process and there will be a balancing of the books to say.

The business has revenue, the owner has an income from that business. They are not one and the same. IF an owners treats them as one and the same they will not be in business long.

Anyway, this is all pretty silly, but my whole point was that the assumptions you fabricated paint an inaccurate perspective for any business.

JeffS

03-09-2010, 07:23 PM

Great question and I would love to see it posted across the hall where he may answer it directly. He had one of the bigger areas at this show.

I assume that for him it is almost an industry type event. He sells his lugs (and tube sets?) to many builders.

Additionally, it about branding. His booth was very heavy handed as far as branding and I think every bike he had (painted) was his team colors. Sachs is a fairly young man and although his books are closed I suspected he hopes/needs an income beyond his current back log.

I asked this question prior to the show and got responses from both Richard and Sacha. The gist is that they wanted to support the industry and the show. Of course, Vanilla is still taking orders, just not for the original line.

-------------

It's certainly a challenging market. I mean, as a small business owner, do you spend thousands on that new website? What about the professional photography? or a semi-professional setup for yourself? Go to the shows, buy ads... spend time on the forums doing your best to present a positive image of yourself?

Your waiting list is 8 months, but if you could create the demand to boost it to three years you could probably add another 25% to the frame prices - which may or may not pay for the advertising to get it there.

I like seeing builders do well, but cringe for myself as the wait lists and prices increase.

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 07:36 PM

We're not talking large Corporations here, right? I would wager that most custom framebuilders are DBAs, probably Sole Proprietors. Some may be LLCs. Money coming in is income, if you are a Sole Proprietor of a business. You have income over a calendar year, and you have costs of materials or products sold, plus other deductible costs/expenses, etc. You subtract the latter two from the former, and you have net profit, which can be negative, when you complete your annual 1040 for our friends at the "we're here to help" IRS. If you have a net loss for more than four years in a row, the IRS will consider your business to be a hobby....

rugbysecondrow

03-09-2010, 07:46 PM

I cry uncle! You are right! :rolleyes:

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 07:57 PM

And I'll state again that I would wager real money (like Yen or Euros, not US Dollars, those aren't so popular these days...) that very, very few custom framebuilders take very much money out of their business as income, pay, wages, whatever you want to call it. Most labor long and hard for very little net income per hour.... Personally, I net about the same per hour as if I worked at Wendy's running the fry machine, but I can live with that. "Hi - you want fries with that?"

markie

03-09-2010, 08:05 PM

But please keep in mind that if it borders on a personal attack (in my view) against the builders, you will be banned, With 12 posts to your credit, I am assuming that some items are being lost in the electronic translation.

I do not see how it was a personal attack against builders. Builders run a business and businesses by definition have to make money. What is wrong with making money in America? :)

I think this has been a great thread and has a lot of interesting perspective.

BengeBoy

03-09-2010, 08:18 PM

Well.... If a builder takes $2000 deposits from 100 customers in a year, his income is $200,000 and all he has done so far is give out places in line..... Assuming he completes and delivers about 50 framesets per year, that's another $100,000 in final payments (assuming $4000 pricing, which is high, I know, but some can command that). So his income is now $300,000. I'd love to have a bidness like that (and there aren't many who can even dream of doing this, I know...).

The only person I can think of whose business model resembles this "hypothetical" example is Bernard Madoff.

Framebuilding as a Ponzi scheme?...I guess it could happen. But I hope that's not what you were trying to suggest.

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 08:25 PM

Not at all.....

That's the problem with edited quotes sometimes.

fiamme red

03-09-2010, 08:40 PM

IMHO (not from him, but my opinion only): e-RICHIE is in this to support the industry which he loves, just like his generosity with lending help and advise to newcomers to the profession, just like his support of cyclocross by hosting a team, and just like his involvement with the Builder's Collective. The cost calculation that we saw above only makes me more impressed with what he is doing for the industry.I didn't mean by my post above that his reason to have a booth at NAHBS is to sell lugs and t-shirts. I only meant to suggest that some of those sales may help defray the costs of exhibiting there.

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 08:54 PM

I think there's no question that Richard Sachs is passionate about what he does for a craft, and road and cyclocross cycling in general. He is also a very savvy businessman, as well. Nothing wrong with being both, imo. In fact, being both is pretty darn cool, from where I sit. Doing what you love as a 'job' is a dream situation, yo.

palincss

03-09-2010, 09:06 PM

Not at all.....

That's the problem with edited quotes sometimes.

No, the problem's not with the editing. I also had the reaction that a Ponzi scheme was being described when I read the original post in full.

retrogrouchy

03-09-2010, 09:27 PM

Seriously? A ponzi scheme is where someone pays off early investors with money taken from subsequent investors, while not investing any of the investors' money in actual securities. This wasn't anything like that....

Steve-O

03-09-2010, 11:02 PM

I don't think Paul Taylor went.

I know Paul is planning on attending the San Diego Bike Show (and has some pretty cool projects he is taking down!)

Wilkinson4

03-09-2010, 11:43 PM

Wow! This thread really took off and in several directions I didn't anticipate but it has remained civil for the most part :)

So, the original question was why so some builders choose not to go. I gave some examples of builders who have been around for quite awhile that don't have +3 year wait lists, but yet have built hundreds if not thousands of bike frames. Some of the new builders have built less than 100 frames and have a backlog already while charging more for a frame than some guys who have been at it for years. I personally would shy away from someone who hasn�t been in business that long for fear of them not making it and me losing my deposit unless their product is really exceptional and they have years of experience like Ellis or Bedford.

My personal view is that NAHBS, SDBS, RMBS, and other shows may offer the best opportunities for new builders to get their brand and name out. So, that may explain why they have a vested interest in attending versus other more well established builders. What would Gangl gain by attending?

Someone like Dinucci may benefit since he has been out of it for awhile but he is also a legend among the new builders out in the Pacific Northwest so he is well known in those circles.

I also think some of the builders I cited have a very good regional following and maybe they want to keep it that way. Maybe they choose not to brand themselves nationally like that and end up with an overwhelming queue!

On the flip side, someone mentioned that having a 5 year queue guarantees steady work and income but I don't think it works that way. They have � the cost in deposits in hand, but I think Bruce Gordon has said he makes less than minimum wage when it is all said and done.

Branding is huge. Sachs has done it better than anybody except Rivendell. Richie has even coined his own acronym!

So, I think cost is a factor but maybe some builders choose not to go because they want to remain under the radar so they don�t have the burden of +5 year wait lists. I�ll bring Gangl up again. He makes some of the best frames out there, has world championship bands on his bikes he earned and yet remains so under the radar that most people don�t even know who he is.

If you are in the Denver area, go down to Parker and pay a visit to Kirk at Creekside bike shop and ask to see his Gangl. It is a gorgeous bike. Great shop too and Kirk is the real deal.

mIKE

Wilkinson4

03-10-2010, 12:16 AM

So I took a look at my post and wanted to say that I didn't mean to say that if someone didn't make it, that they would not finish their queue off or that $ would not be refunded.

Another one I never see at shows is Columbine and every bike they make can be considered show worthy. I kick myslef in that I had my mitts on one and I let it get away.

mIKE

Dazza

03-10-2010, 08:56 PM

is so Karin can keep my tea cup topped up
Thus ensuring I did not nod off to sleep mid sentance while speaking to booth visitors
as Ginger could not make the trip.

oh, I am a strong believer in only normal bikes/frames that the builder makes should make it to the show.
Concept show specials are not helpful.

I brought four frames,
The Candy Apple Red one and the Blue XRr Fixie were for two clients in the USA ,
the other two frame were normal frame models.
Just normal production!

A person who has never been to NAHBS is like a person who loves bike racing and has never seen the TDF pass by on the Grand Cols

weisan

03-10-2010, 09:04 PM

A person who has never been to NAHBS is like a person who loves bike racing and has never seen the TDF pass by on the Grand Cols
Agreed! That will all change for me next year when the show comes to town in Austin. Or I should say, my former hometown. I am already working on my wife to come up with an excuse to go, even as we speak. :D

rounder

03-10-2010, 10:07 PM

Dazza, I have never been to NAHBS, but since it was within 300 miles i was going. I thought your white bike with the green panels was the most beautiful bike i have ever seen.

Lifelover

03-10-2010, 10:55 PM

.....
oh, I am a strong believer in only normal bikes/frames that the builder makes should make it to the show.
Concept show specials are not helpful.
...

While I would have never made the drive up without the opportunity to see work like yours and Dave's, once there, I wanted to be entertained. The show would not have been as enjoyable if every display was as low key as some.

Purely as entertainment, I loved the stuff from Black Sheep. It seems thoughtful and different. If I was in search of the best riding bike I could find, it would not be my first choice. However, at NAHBS I don't get to ride the bikes, I just get to look.

I was also very amused when I was talking to the guys with the twisted square tube bikes. The bikes looked super cool and the guys were so excited about them. They were selling (and I think believe) that cold working the tubes provided some great advantage.

I would not have enjoyed the show nearly as much if them and the Flame Throwers bikes were not there.

Your target market and the NAHBS' target market overlap, but are not completely inclusive.

Most attendees do not have the eye or the appreciation for the work that you do.

Charles M

03-11-2010, 08:56 AM

A person who has never been to NAHBS is like a person who loves bike racing and has never seen the TDF pass by on the Grand Cols

VERY TRUE!

But for the people that have enjoyed seeing the TDF on the cols, there are special days and " Extra Special " days... No?

http://le-grimpeur.net/blog/wp-images/Pantani2000.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_I4Snyzw2IMM/Su5pbQN4ajI/AAAAAAAAENU/8pJTVZ3OvSA/s400/merckx_mountains_1969.jpg
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/interviews/giro_hampsten08/PCY112.hamp.opener_prev.jpg
http://pilotadifrasi.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/coppi-e-bartali.jpg

And to it, There's probably not a rider anywhere else on the mointain that day who doesn't feel like they did impressive work. And they would surely be correct.

Johny

03-11-2010, 09:27 AM

A person who has never been to DBRK's basement is like a person who loves bike racing and has never seen the TDF pass by on the Grand Cols. :)

I think NAHBs is cool and would love to go but as a non-framebuilder, I would rather ride with forum pals and look at/chat about their even cooler bicycles at Ramble/D2R2 given limited time we all have. And we have been fortunate to have builders including Kirk, Sachs, Weigle, Goodrich, Hampsten/Tournesol, Barry/Mariposa...at the Ramble.

BumbleBeeDave

03-11-2010, 12:05 PM

Ahneida Ride

03-11-2010, 12:16 PM

Nothing ... absolute nothing is better then the TdFL.

Thanks Douglas, we all miss you.

EddieBirdsell

03-11-2010, 02:01 PM

Concept show specials are not helpful.

Me: (points at Candy Apple Red bike) Hey Dazza, did you build this bike for the show?

Dazza: Show bike!?!?!? Mate, I build three or four of these a year! 250 hours labor each! I don't build show bikes!

Johny

03-11-2010, 02:07 PM

I have not heard anything about a Ramble/TdFL for this year. Given how busy Douglas is, we all can understand. However, even if there is not one this year, I believe he will have one in a near future. In the meanwhile, we can get together at CNYrider's Dirtphalt this summer http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=762790#post762790, and don't forget D2R2. If pals are coming to Finger Lakes for Highlander, we can ride together http://www.highlandercycletour.com/ .

Sorry I forgot Kelly (Bedford) was at the Ramble last time too. What a gentleman and great framebuilder he is.

Dazza

03-11-2010, 03:24 PM

Me: (points at Candy Apple Red bike) Hey Dazza, did you build this bike for the show?

Dazza: Show bike!?!?!? Mate, I build three or four of these a year! 250 hours labor each! I don't build show bikes!

That frame was not built for the show
It was for a US client
and it flew with me to NAHBS
He was to collect at the end of the show on Sunday
but things conspired so he could not make it, so it was shipped last week {a big thankyou to Nick Crumpton for taking are of this}

I build two/three some times four of these "Lucentezza" style frames each year, for the last 6-8 years. So I consider these frame sets as normal production. Some would consider it to be slavery. {my tenosynovitis thinks so}
In the next few weeks I am starting on one of these that goes to Sweeden.
Besides the shiny part, and some details, they are normal hard riding bikes.

I am currently building a real race bike. A XL lugged sloping TT frame that is going to Belgium to be truely race hammered.

rpm

03-11-2010, 04:08 PM

Back to the original question of the thread, one guy who is under the radar is Dave Anderson. His bikes are drop dead gorgeous, and his workmanship is sublime. He's no newbie--he's been at it for awhile, but he hasn't sought out a national presence, except for posting in the Friday Night Lights section across the hall. He always get compliments from the other builders.

His signature lugged 953 frames are a good deal:

http://www.andersoncustombicycles.com/The%20Bicycles.htm

retrogrouchy

03-11-2010, 09:44 PM

Wow, nice frames, nice shop, nice (not overdone) website. Thanks for the tip!

Kish Fabrication

03-12-2010, 11:13 AM

I've talked to many framebuilding friends about their reasons for attending or not attending this year, and there's at least as many pros and cons as there are builders.

Everyone's situation is different, some builders eat top ramen 3 meals a day, some have trust funds or rich spouses. Some sell only in their neighborhoods, others depend on worldwide exposure. Some go in an earnest attempt to round up more business, other go to drink whiskey with Don Ferris and see old friends.

Also, people's situations change year to year, some years you might decide you can afford the time and money, other years you might decide you're better off staying home and catching up on work.

I displayed this year, and 3 others. I can never figure out whether it really pencils out, but I'm happy that the opportunity is there, and I've always had a lot of fun and met a lot of great folks.

JohnHemlock

03-16-2010, 10:53 PM

I only buy bicycles from nice-looking websites. If your html isn't any good, chances are neither are your welds.

Does this make me shallow?

rockdude

03-17-2010, 06:35 AM

I only buy bicycles from nice-looking websites. If your html isn't any good, chances are neither are your welds.

Does this make me shallow?

Yes, and I think you know it.

Cantdog

03-17-2010, 06:47 AM

I only buy bicycles from nice-looking websites. If your html isn't any good, chances are neither are your welds.

Does this make me shallow?

Heh, I have to partially agree...it's frustrating when you are interested in a builder and visit their website...only to find it hasnt been updated in years and the pictures of frames are poorly taken. Do you actually want my business? Could you go through the effort to make the page look professional?

veloduffer

03-17-2010, 06:55 AM

I only buy bicycles from nice-looking websites. If your html isn't any good, chances are neither are your welds.

Does this make me shallow?

Two thoughts - websites are today's equivalent of a storefront. A nice website has "curb appeal" to the browsing customer and is more likely to have the customer "look around".

On the other hand, may be the builder is too busy to update the website and is working on frames. Then its like finding the "out of the way" gems, where the builder is spare on the bling but has real substance in the work. If someone has been around a long time in the bike building business, it's a pretty good testament that they do quality work. For example, I don't think Peter Weigle (JP Weigle) and John Hollands even have websites.

soulspinner

03-17-2010, 07:51 AM

Joellogicman

03-17-2010, 10:07 AM

For example, I don't think Peter Weigle (JP Weigle) and John Hollands even have websites.

I also think it is the right way to go if you are not interested in maintaining a web site or answering e-mail.

If the builder has a poor website or provides an e-mail address but is slow or fails to answer e-mail, I would think twice about buying a bike.

Joellogicman

03-17-2010, 10:08 AM

+1-Although his prices just went up he is still extremely reasonable, a very nice guy and builds very nice looking bikes. His wait time is over a year now..........

Have you ever seen one of those finished? I hear they look nice. Have not heard much about ride quality.

pbjbike

03-17-2010, 10:48 AM

RS has a great piece on his blog about building in the 90's, which were dark days for custom steel builders: The MTB craze was in full swing, tig welding was becoming the method of choice, small high end U.S. production companies were going strong, and then there was Ti on the scene. I remember talking to Peter Mooney when I worked at Merlin, and he was really down about the future of steel building. RS and guys like Eisentraut, Nobilette, Weigle, et al, started this industry in the early 70's. They held the torch for decades while various new materials and companies of the moment came and went. It's really wonderful to see what they hath wrought. There would be no NAHBS if they had not kept at it.