Classified Etiquette

[rugbysecondrow]

Issue: Non-Payment

I arranged to sell an item to a forumite, he committed to buy it. I said if he was unhappy with the purchase, he could return it and I would pay for shipping. I said I would send it out asap and he agreed to pay via Pay Pal later in the day. He got the item and I still had not gotten paid. He said he thought the item was not what he wanted (he thought the photo was not accurate) and wanted a lower price (note he had not paid yet) and I said no but offered to take it back (per the agreement) and reimburse for shipping once I got it back since he had not yet paid for anything. He then decided to keep the item, and agreed to pay the agreed price but it has been two weeks with no payment.

I have PM'd multiple times and have heard back multiple times about how sorry he was, how he meant to, how he forgot, how he has been busy, how he appreciates my patience, faith and trust etc...

My question, it is not a lot of money (about $40), but if somebody is unwilling abide by their committments, should I out this person? He only participates in the Classified section (mostly WTB ads) and has ZERO General Discussion posts.

I have operated as a buyer and a seller in the trust system on the forum and I appreciate the faith others have had in me. I have extented that recently even after this incident, so I am not jaded, but rather would like to out this person.

Should I out them? Should I openly invite PMs inquiring about who this person is so they don't deal with them?

I will email this to that person so he knows I am serious, but I think people should honor their committments.

Why sacrifice integrity for a few dollars or a used bike part?

[John M]

I would send a PM that says return the item or pay within 7 days or you will call him out on the forum.

As it stands now, he is violating your trust at best--perhaps stealing at worst.

[caleb]

I have operated as a buyer and a seller in the trust system on the forum and I appreciate the faith others have had in me.

A large number of people treat this place like Craig's List. I think that's unfortunate.

I think you'd be justified "outing" him.

[vqdriver]

i like the sellers who don't wait for payment to ship an item if it's not a large transaction. it demonstrates faith in forumites and the honor system, and i do the same when possible. but i'll add that am wary to do so for buyers who either post only in the classifieds or have a low post count.

this is the first time, i've read of someone getting burned liked that.

it's not a lot of money, but i'd be pissed regardless.

[StellaBlue]

You have been more then patient IMO. I would send one last PM saying " either pay or shoot me a tracking number of the item coming back within 24 hours" or out him. This seems like BS to me.

Shame on you for not getting payment before shipping.

[rugbysecondrow]

Shame on you for not getting payment before shipping.

Understood. I was going out of town for work for 4 days and wanted to get the item out sooner rather than later.

[StellaBlue]

Understood. I was going out of town for work for 4 days and wanted to get the item out sooner rather than later.

You live, you learn.

[oldguy00]

I would out him, seriously. It protects others on the forum too.

I hate to admit it, but I've had more 'sour' deals here than I've had on ebay over 10 years..

[KJMUNC]

Interesting that you have run into this issue as I recently had the EXACT same experience for roughly the same dollar amount and got the same list of excuses. I've never had a problem with non-payment, so I shipped the item before I received payment, but that was almost 2 MONTHS ago and I still have no payment.

I'll PM you to discuss further, as I am on the verge of "outing" this buyer and if it's the same person then I'll do it immediately.

I've also had several instances where I'll post something for sale and virtually immediately someone will email saying "I'll take it", but then drag out the payment process for weeks. I have only had the one non-payment scenario, but I feel like there's a trend towards people not acting with the same level of integrity and consideration that have alway been a hallmark of this forum.

[tuscanyswe]

Also think you should warn and out.

Ive never had issues here or in other buy/sell forums.

Its cause persons like these know/rely that most ppl are kind and understanding so it never becomes a problem for them. They just make up a story or another as suits their needs.

Everyone can forget something but after reminded...

[stackie]

Why shame on him for not getting payment first? That's a personal decision. I ship tons of stuff out before I get payment. Why? Usually, just because I want to cross the item of my to do list and move on. Of course, most of the time it's for small stuff 50-150 bucks. I might reconsider if I was shipping out an expensive frame...

I'd go with the 24 hours to pay or give you a tracking number for the return, if not, out him immediately and move on. We want to know so that we can avoid hassling with this buyer. Right now, this headache this guy is causing is way worse than losing $40. Now, it's principle.

If he comes through after, you can always post an addendum stating that he eventually came through.

Just my 2 cents.

Jon

[alancw3]

I would send a PM that says return the item or pay within 7 days or you will call him out on the forum.

As it stands now, he is violating your trust at best--perhaps stealing at worst.
+1. pay immediately or risk outing. no ifs ands or butts. that kind or behavior does not belong on this forum. unfortunately over the last couple of years things have seemed to change on the forum classifies. sad but i guess on an open forum it is inevitable.

[jmeloy]

I've had GREAT luck buying here and that instance detracts from all the good things folks do for each other on this site. Warn and then out 'em.

[TBDSeattle]

Gents-

I am a newbie to this forum... I got involved after I sold my Serotta, regretted it, and went online looking for another one to buy.

My experiences buying and selling on here have been fantastic. I too have shipped before receiving payment, and have never had anything but 10/10 experiences.

I understand that I am still green here, but one of the reasons I get on the site every other day or so is because of the sense of community. I love seeing posts where guys are talking about going for a ride together, or meeting up a the handbuilt bike show. It makes the internet and the diffuse cycling community feel more connected.

I think that failing to pay $40 is for a part that you have already received is very, very poor form. As a service to other community members it would be helpful to know whom you may want to avoid in future transactions. I reluctantly agree that a short deadline for payment 24 hours or so, then an honest and clear summary of the interaction is in order.

Respectfully- TBDSeattle

[rugbysecondrow]

He has been PMd a link to this thread with request to pay by end of day Saturday or I will out him.

Thanks,

Paul

[Ken Robb]

your "buyer" could be one of the trolls who find good buys here and flip them elsewhere. Sometimes they don't want to pay until they find their own buyer at a higher price. They get free inventory and no risk.

OTOH, Rugbysecondrow and I sent the check and merchandise on the same day so they should both arrive at the same time for our $40 deal. Well that's what I told him. I actually have a buyer for $42.50. I didn't send the check and I'm going to Cabo with Dave Thompson to taste tequilas. :)

[jpw]

Give him one final and absolute deadline, and then a naming and shaming here in this thread.

[rugbysecondrow]

your "buyer" could be one of the trolls who find good buys here and flip them elsewhere. Sometimes they don't want to pay until they find their own buyer at a higher price. They get free inventory and no risk.

OTOH, Rugbysecondrow and I sent the check and merchandise on the same day so they should both arrive at the same time for our $40 deal. Well that's what I told him. I actually have a buyer for $42.50. I didn't send the check and I'm going to Cabo with Dave Thompson to taste tequilas. :)

Ken is one of the good guys...I think the rule more than the exception. :beer:

[maximus]

There have been a couple times on this forum where I have been humbled by the generosity of complete strangers. I think in this case, your generosity has been taken advantage of.

I say warn them then "out" them. As said before, it protects other potential sellers.

This board has pretty great classifieds section, but its much more than that. There are certain forums (car forums for ex) that require forum members to have been active in general discussion before they can even post ***/FS ads in the classifieds. I sometimes wonder if that would be appropriate here?

[JMerring]

it would be a public service to out him so others know not to sell to him. as you seem inclined to do, a courtesy email giving him an opportunity to pay before being shamed is a good idea.

[weiwentg]

if you paid by check, this could fall under mail fraud and USPS Inspection Service would seem to have authority to handle it.
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/

If you paid by Paypal, they should also back you up.

[Smiley]

Out them and Notify Pete to Ban them. I know Rugy and I certainly would not want to come face to face with him. A few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us, out the guy and lets get him banned.

[norcalbiker]

I've had very good experience on this forum buying and selling. My last transaction was a pair of Vittoria tires that I purchased from "saab2000" and he sent me the tires the same day I sent him a check. The check payment method was request by the seller. I would rather buy and sell here anytime than Craigslist or Ebay. Been a member here for a while now and I trust most members. Except for those who have 1 or 2 post.

Good luck!

[Pete Serotta]

Just want ads and there have been :no: numerous notes...out him now, no second chance.


Yes, trust is all we have among us.

Out them and Notify Pete to Ban them. I know Rugy and I certainly would not want to come face to face with him. A few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us, out the guy and lets get him banned.

[weisan]

I wonder often about the need to tell this story. I think now is the right time.
More than a year and a half ago, a "pal" here at the forum bought something from me. I don't even remember what it was and the agreed upon price. I asked for the address and shipped out the package pretty much the same day. I didn't think twice about payment for I assume it will come at some point. It was the time when we were getting ready to move to St. Louis. I had to unload a bunch of stuff partly to free up space (as we were moving from a house w/ garage to an apartment) and partly to raise some funds to pay for the "hard times ahead" :D ; I was going back to school and needed money to pay towards tuition and living expenses, not counting the fact I have five little chipmunks that needed to be fed at home. I sold maybe 12-15 items, all was completed without any incident except one. At about the same time, this person in question had wrote on the forum about the financial difficulties he was going through in life. And so, I kind of took that all into consideration. When he expressed interest in buying my part, I thought to myself, hmmm, maybe your money is better spent in keeping you and your household financially afloat rather than buying bike parts. Oh well, it was never my place to question how someone decides to manage his or her finances and so I still went ahead and accepted his offer, knowing full well there is some degree of "risk" involved. Sure enough, no payment was made. Upon repeated attempts to make contact, he never reply back, and sort of just fell out from planet earth. A few months later, he re-surfaced again here and on "Velocipe", I sent him a PM, still no reply, and then he just kind of continued life as usual, participating in the forum activity like before as if nothing had happened. To me, this was all quite fascinating. I was not so much ticked off by the non-payment but fascinated by the degree of audacity and immaturity exhibited. It's quite a study of human behavioral science. :D
Anyhoo, long story short, just for fun, I contacted him again a few days ago, sort of like, gently reminding him if he had forgotten something, like leaving his keys in the car, forgot to flush, couldn't remember me because we haven't talked for so long...still no reply. Fascinating!!! :p

I am nice to my pals here because I have chosen to do so. Whether people thought I have been taken advantage of or not, I really don't care. I knew absolutely what's going on, nothing escapes me. ;)

[jvp]

Every time I buy something via remote craigslist or ebay, I am apprehensive until the item arrives and is as descibed. Can't say that for my purchases here, they has always been stress free!

[rugbysecondrow]

The buyer just paid and sent a note with an explanation accepting full responsibility for not paying. I will ask Pete's guidance with regard to moving forward from here.

Thanks

[Chad Engle]

It sucks when you have to question the good in folks. I guess to be safe you need to get paid prior to shipping.

This forum is a wonderful place. Integrity and honesty.

My vote is to out the person in a situation like this.

[rugbysecondrow]

As an aside, I would rather trust somebody and be wrong a few times rather than distrust all and be wrong most of the time. So no, this won't change how I deal with people.

[CHF]

The guy paid because he feared retaliation, not because it was the right thing to do. I still think you should out him so that people will know to require a receipt from Paypal before they ship to this guy.

[fourflys]

As an aside, I would rather trust somebody and be wrong a few times rather than distrust all and be wrong most of the time. So no, this won't change how I deal with people.

Amen to that, the few things I've sold I've always sent the item before getting payment... The only exception was the frame/fork I sold and that was only due to the dollar amount and not the trust of the buyer...

I say it's up to Pete & Rugby as to whether the excuse given is viable and if they want to give the guy a second chance... I know sh*t happens in my life sometimes...

[MMcG]

As an aside, I would rather trust somebody and be wrong a few times rather than distrust all and be wrong most of the time. So no, this won't change how I deal with people.

Well said.

[vqdriver]

As an aside, I would rather trust somebody and be wrong a few times rather than distrust all and be wrong most of the time. So no, this won't change how I deal with people.


+1000 at heart.

tho reality seems to try real hard at times to change that philosopy.
good on ya

[Ken Robb]

Isn't it interesting that most of us seem to think that the risk is that the "buyer" won't send the payment. Is that a greater risk than a "seller" never delivering?

I had a problem with an item I purchased a while back and the seller and I agreed to unwind the deal with a return/refund. The seller was adamant that he wouldn't refund my $$$ until his merchandise was in his hand. Since he'd had my $$$ for months before shipping my faulty order I thought that was an interesting point of view. After all the reason for the return was that the goods would not work for me. Why would I keep it?

All was fine in the end so this is really just a philosophical musing on my part.

[Keith A]

Isn't it interesting that most of us seem to think that the risk is that the "buyer" won't send the payment. Is that a greater risk than a "seller" never delivering?Yes indeed, it seems that the seller usually holds all the cards. They often have the payment before they ship and so they have both the goods and the money...and the buyer just has the hope the seller comes through.

[palincss]

Interesting that you have run into this issue as I recently had the EXACT same experience for roughly the same dollar amount and got the same list of excuses. I've never had a problem with non-payment, so I shipped the item before I received payment, but that was almost 2 MONTHS ago and I still have no payment.

I'll PM you to discuss further, as I am on the verge of "outing" this buyer and if it's the same person then I'll do it immediately.

I've also had several instances where I'll post something for sale and virtually immediately someone will email saying "I'll take it", but then drag out the payment process for weeks. I have only had the one non-payment scenario, but I feel like there's a trend towards people not acting with the same level of integrity and consideration that have alway been a hallmark of this forum.

2 months is more than enough time for someone to pay. Way more than enough time.

[WeakRider]

Paul, you're a swell guy. I've bought stuff from Paul on several occasions, and he has always been a pleasure to deal with. I'd also like to note that the great Jeff N. once sent me a Campy titanium seatpost before receiving payment from me! A lot of awesome people on this forum.

[fourflys]

Isn't it interesting that most of us seem to think that the risk is that the "buyer" won't send the payment. Is that a greater risk than a "seller" never delivering?

I had a problem with an item I purchased a while back and the seller and I agreed to unwind the deal with a return/refund. The seller was adamant that he wouldn't refund my $$$ until his merchandise was in his hand. Since he'd had my $$$ for months before shipping my faulty order I thought that was an interesting point of view. After all the reason for the return was that the goods would not work for me. Why would I keep it?

All was fine in the end so this is really just a philosophical musing on my part.

I'd say it all comes back to retail... You don't go into a store and have something until you hand over the money... You don't usually get the keys to a car or house until you've signed those papers...

I guess it comes down to the buyer wanting the item and therefore having to make the first move (send the money)... Someone has to jump first when it's an online deal...

[Keith A]

A lot of awesome people on this forum.This is certainly true. I had one of our forum members send me an F3 fork to see it would work on one of my bikes...no payment required. I had to plead with him to accept my F2 fork in exchange for his most generous offer. As it turns out, both forks worked out better for each of our setups...but his generosity was almost overwhelming. He is truly a gem.

On another occasion, I had a forum member (who I'd never meet before) let me use one of his top shelf bikes for an entire week while my family was on vacation in his area. Not only did he let me use his bike, but he took me on some great rides, fed my family a most wonderful meal and let us swim in their pool. He's another gem too!

[Steve in SLO]

On another occasion, I had a forum member (who I'd never meet before) let me use one of his top shelf bikes for an entire week while my family was on vacation in his area. Not only did he let me use his bike, but he took me on some great rides, fed my family a most wonderful meal and let us swim in their pool. He's another gem too!

Please PM me with his contact info. My family needs a vacation destination for the summer. :beer:

[dannyg1]

Question:

Are we going to hear whom the offender was or have we just made another bogey man?

[Keith A]

Please PM me with his contact info. My family needs a vacation destination for the summer. :beer:I'm afraid it won't do you much good since he's only about 150 miles from you :eek:

[hookookadoo]

+1 for outing. Based on the # of excuses and length of time that has passed he bought his ticket out of here. If a "legitimate" excuse it would have surfaced early on. These are intentional delays and therefore will happen again.

I like to view this forum as a bunch of fun loving cyclist that have a passion for the sport, and many other things in life, that come to this site for good clean honest fun and for swapping stories and experiences. Trading parts/frames is an ancillary benefit to that group and (I assume) was never intended for those with only an economic benefit. That is my utopian view of this forum and anything that threatens that must be dealt with. WE WILL PROTECT THIS HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry. Got carried away.

[drewski]

+1 on the degree of conscientiousness I have experienced on this forum.
I bought a Raleigh Pro off Dixies dad and he had the nerve to throw
in a free jersey and a wooden Raleigh sign with the Heron for free.
I feel it necessary to out this person for his deviant behavior.


:beer:

[fourflys]

I'd say it's up to Pete and Rugby as to whether the member is outed... He may have had a good reason... Not mine to judge...

[Mike748]

As a buyer I've gotten a lot of terrific deals here but I've also gotten a lot of not quite as good as described stuff on this forum. I usually chaulk this up as my fault for being picky or not asking enough questions up front. Its annoying that people think a after a years use on a cyclecross bike parts are still as new.

As a seller I've had only one imperfect experience with a forum member buyer due to a paypal chargeback. He promises to make me whole... hopefully he will. I've been very patient. I've had several non members flake out and try to avoid them.

There's reason fleabay ads with extremely good pictures get high bids...

[SEABREEZE]

On two occastions, I had to get Pete invoved, once he interveined, the situations were resolved immediately. Thank goodness for Pete.

Bought & sold frames and parts many times without a glitch.
Great communications throughtout the process. Overall a great community.


It appears some of us have experienced the same, one or two bad apples.


I know this community is a open, freindly, and helpful community to one another, but....


My suggestion would be to have a feedback section, so all members are aware of the bad apples.

[djg]

Things happen to people at home and at work and it's easy enough for a few days or a week to slide by without getting to correspondence or the post office, even if one meant to do so. I can understand that there's always a potential question about how much time is too much, or what counts as an adequate excuse.

Personally, I've had two problem deals that were both my responsibility -- one was just plain my fault. In one case, I thought I'd looked over a couple of used cross tires -- I'd looked through a bunch -- but I'd failed to check one of the tires I actually sent, which turned out to be bad. My fault, and I returned the guy's money. In another, our pals at USPS took a month to deliver a package -- I had a tracking number and everything; I assured the buyer that I'd be responsible, whether the post came through or not; and the buyer was very understanding while we sorted things out.

In each case, the other party trusted initially that I'd live up to my end of the bargain. And in each case, the buyer's reaction to an initial difficulty was reasonable, calm, and still apparently trusting. But at some point -- some amount of time, some string of e-mails and excuses -- you start to wonder whether a stranger is acting in bad faith. And at some point you're pretty sure. So what do you do if you really believe that the other person hasn't just failed precisely to meet some timetable, but actually is acting in bad faith? Threatening to "out" the person makes sense in one way -- it's a possible lever against a body who doesn't want to live up to a bargain, but perhaps also doesn't want to suffer damage to his or her reputation on a certain chat board. OTOH, I'd really want to avoid dealing with such a person, even if he or she caves after a month, a dozen or so e-mails, etc. I dunno here -- there are circumstances upon possible circumstances, and I'm not questioning a particular judgment made by somebody else, but with the initial post, my gut says to out the bahstid.

[Steve in SLO]

This has generally been a reasonable place to sell/trade.
Would it be reasonable in the case of disagreements that the agrieved partie(s) do what they can reasonably do to resolve the problem, then contact an administrator if a resolution couldn't be agreed upon?
This would:
-Provide the wronged party with assistance from a 'higher power' and would alert the wrongdoer that they were being watched with potential negative effects to them.
-Provide for an imparital referee in the case of pissing matches.
-Aid in identifying repeat offenders, thereby protecting others.
-Make the Mods jobs a bit harder (Sorry Pete, etal).

[rugbysecondrow]

I have spoken with Pete about this since it involves the forum and he will take appropriate action (as he sees fit) based on the forum rules.

My opinion, the buyer has paid me and offered an apology that I accepted. He acknowledged being wrong, being at fault and that he regrets being irresponsible for this transaction. When I first posted on this thread I asked for suggestions and I took one of the first suggestions which was to send a PM to him saying that if he didn't pay he would be outed. He paid, so I don't think I should go back on my word and still out him as that would challenge my integrity and my word.

I believe that most people are good but I know some aren't. I am not saying whether this person is a good person or a bad one but he is one who has made a mistake and taken responsibility for it. He has said I could out him and I would be justified in doing so, but I don't believe in scarlet letters. What I do believe is that this person will take this as a learning experience, I will take this as a learning experience, and I hope others do as well. My lesson is that some dealings might not be perfect and some might not go as I planned and that sometimes my trust might be challenged, but that is the risk I acceopt for how I choose to operate and work with people.

With that said, I will not be outing him for the reason stated. I also don't think it would achieve anything. Outing this person does not remove the threat of bad dealings but rather I think allowing him to remain will improve the forum as I think he has learned a lesson. I have been wrong before but I don't think I am now.

Thanks,

Paul

[Steve in SLO]

Paul,
You sound like a good man. My respect comes to you for grace in a difficult situation.

[fourflys]

Paul,
You sound like a good man. My respect comes to you for grace in a difficult situation.

+1 and good on you Paul for being the bigger person...

:D

[mike p]

I feel truly blessed as I've had nothing but good happen to me here. I've bought and sold many times without a hitch and everyone I've dealt with has been kind and generous. I'd really miss this forum if it ever shut down. Thank you all very much! Now time to get out and ride!!

Mike

[rugbysecondrow]

Now time to get out and ride!!

Mike


Amen! I am heading out with Dekonick now. Cheers!

[djg]

With that said, I will not be outing him for the reason stated. I also don't think it would achieve anything. Outing this person does not remove the threat of bad dealings but rather I think allowing him to remain will improve the forum as I think he has learned a lesson. I have been wrong before but I don't think I am now.

Thanks,

Paul

Just for whatever sort of record might be here, I didn't mean to criticize your course of action -- you were the one who corresponded with the person and you were the one who knew what was said to whom, and when. Your call, and I think you handled this well, FWIW.

[Blue Jays]

Rugbysecondrow, that is very gracious of you. You're truly a scholar and a gentleman.
You really gave this person many, many chances and you're to be commended for your remarkable patience.

To the person who created this messy transaction:
Count yourself lucky you were interacting with such a classy person.
Please don't let it happen again, it's very unbecoming to this forum...even for small amounts of money.

[Dekonick]

Out them and Notify Pete to Ban them. I know Rugy and I certainly would not want to come face to face with him. A few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us, out the guy and lets get him banned.

Yeah - he is a big dude. I wouldn't want him to stomp on me any more than William...

Classifieds - as a general rule I ship w/o hesitation to known forumites - payment has always come in short order. :beer:

[Pete Serotta]

One is still left to pay. While he did not allow folks to email him - - -his email is now open for mail. (not the private message on forum for his is full). Email address has been sent to seller, who sent me a note.


If he does not pay up in 5 days...he will be front and center as a "no pay" :no: and called out


Hope that does not happen......


I am really torn about posting folks ids (but then after all it is not their real name :D ) So I will send them a note asking for the transaction to be completed or terminated and then if nothing happens in 5 days - - They are called out for others to be aware and to beware.


Please keep in mind that while a person who only has a few posts is not a bad person - - it is one with a "not yet proven" track record on transactions.


Also look at the posts - - example is that one of the folks only had WTB for ALL his posts. A few others only have WTS :confused: :confused:


Based on this these folks primary focus is to buy goods or to sell them... This is not bad in of itself but again "no proven track record"

[weisan]

I would like to make an update on my "incident report".

The person in question in my case has contacted me to apologize and to make good on his payment. I was ecstatic, more than just the fact that I am getting my money, but he's "turning around." That really was my end-goal all this time. It is far more important to make people whole in restoring their human dignity by being patient with them and giving them ample opportunity to change course, and turn around. I couldn't be happier with the turn of events.

Whenever something like this happened, I just to bring out the best robe and put it on him, put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. And finally, bring the fattened calf and kill it so we can all have a feast and celebrate. :beer: :banana: :D

[mike p]

The prodigal son returns! Weisan your sooo correct!

Mike

[huebar]

Every time I buy something via remote craigslist or ebay, I am apprehensive until the item arrives and is as descibed. Can't say that for my purchases here, they has always been stress free!
I am buying from ebay very often, especially electronics
nice option for me.

[yakstone]

Out him, enough is enough.