Need some forum wisdom: eBay frame mis-represented

[kenw]

Frame was advertised by seller as a 60cm; frame measures as a 58 & agrees with mfgr's
geometry web page. There is no way I can be comfortable on a 58, since even a 60 might be a bit too small, but I was willing to take a chance on a 60, and if it was too small, my loss.
The issue will probably be shipping. Am I wrong to expect seller to reimburse me for initial shipping, and for seller to pay shipping back to him? I don't think I am. I have not contacted the seller yet (frame just arrived today), and I have not contacted eBay (who did say that this purchase would be covered by their insurance.) Thanks for any input. Ken

[markie]

If it were me I would accept the shipping loss.

The seller probably did not willfully misrepresent the size. It is worth asking a seller to double-check measurements before bidding...

Ask the seller and ask his opinion. Most good sellers will do anything not to get bad feedback.

[Dave]

The lesson to learn here is to be sure you have some of the most critical dimensions from the frame - like the head tube length that is easy to measure.

If the seller goofed and advertised a 58 as a 60, the shipping should be on him, at least one way and preferably both. He needs to learn to accurately describe his product.

When I sold complete bikes or frames on E-bay, I listed all of the critical dimensions, including the exact range of handlebar height the could be attained with a few common stem angles. I warned not to bid if the bars could not be high enough.

[veggieburger]

What is the seller's feedback like? If it's good, it was most likely an honest error. If it's no so great, could be a sketchy seller.

Did you get it at a really good price? Could you resell and get your money back?

[sokyroadie]

If it is not as represented, the seller should pay for all shipping. Why should you be responsible for anything?

Jeff

[Ken Robb]

misrepresentation whether intentional or not means the innocent buyer should not be out anything except the hassle of receiving/resshipping at the seller's expense. There wouldn't seem to be any reason for a seller to call at 58 a 60 on purpose.

[mike p]

I bought a cervelo P-3 a while back and frame was two sizes smaller than advertized. I double ck'd frame size with owner before bidding and was assured it was correct size. The minute I opened the box I could it was small! He never even flinched, he paid shipping both ways and full refund. I would have eaten shipping one way even though I didn't think I should. It all worked out.

Mike

[vqdriver]

as has been mentioned, there doesn't seem to be a big advantage to listing a 58 as a 60. and depending on the seller rating and whether it's a shop or an individual, it's probably just a mistake in the measurement or the dude just had it in is head that he'd been riding a 60 that whole time.

whatever, it's not worth the aggravation to open a dispute if they don't want to pay for return shipping. just pay to send it back and have your initial payment returned in full, including the shipping.

no, you shouldn't have to pay any shipping at all. but ebay is a calculated risk. whether it's a seller not knowing how to properly measure a frame, or UPS beating the snot out of the box, or a vase showing up as glass powder cuz the seller cheaped out on the packing foam.

[gforce]

That is unfortunate intended or not. I purchased a crank set that was misrepresented and the seller credited me for it and the shipping one way. It
didn't amount to enough money to jump through all the ebay channels to try
and get return shipping reimbursed...and it may not for you. Good luck - hopefully the seller steps up and accepts all responsibility.

[TimD]

There's the usual C-C, C-TT, C-ST confusion... A 62cm Trek OCLV is really about 59cm C-C. Could that have been it?

[Lifelover]

I suspect you are at the mercy of the seller. Be open and honest with him and see what he offers.

[Peter P.]

While I feel the seller should absorb the 2 way shipping in this case, it would still be a positive transaction if they refunded 1 way shipping costs.

The trick will be in how you word your request. Something like, "I think you made a mistake (describe mistake). I'd like to get a refund, including shipping costs both ways. I'm also willing to negotiate."

Give the seller "a way out" and you're more likely to get a positive response.

Report back with your results.

[ckamp]

I recently had a similar issue arise with a fork being measured incorrectly. The seller measured the steerer tube including part of the crown, making it too small for my build. He told me to ship it back and agreed to both shipping costs. I might pay for 50% of the way back as it was an honest mistake and we have all made those..

[AndrewS]

I have seen honest mistakes on Ebay about frame size due to the three different ways of measuring the seat tube: center to center, center to top of seat tube, center to top of top tube.

A Cannondale with it's high seat tube can be mismeasured by as much as 5cm!

The solution is to always ask for a center to center measure of the top tube. This will both confirm the size and provide you with the most important fit dimension on a frame. That way a 60cm frame with a custom 55cm top tube doesn't end up at your door. You can also check the serial number with the manufacturer.

I think the seller would be within his rights to only repay the selling price if they made an honest effort to measure it and you didn't ask the right questions. Anything else is their good will.


Alternative: Did you get a good deal? 58cm frames are more popular than 60s. Resell it and see if you can break even or make a profit on Craigslist, Ebay or here.

[metrotuned]

Before, mis-presentation would mean seller is at fault 100%. Things have changed, for example, with newegg and even a bike e-store, you can get a refund, but only if you pay for return shipping. It's a compromise that is constantly changing. Some companies still advertise and market "free shipping both ways", a shoe e-store comes to mind that uses this ploy. With this case, if it was an honest mistake by seller, then you can compromise and maybe get a credit for some or all of your return shipping. Just be sure it gets back to the seller in the same condition otherwise the tables will turn. :butt:

[palincss]

Frame was advertised by seller as a 60cm; frame measures as a 58 & agrees with mfgr's
geometry web page.


Any chance the seller said 60 cm center-to-top and you measured 58 center-to-center?

[kgreene10]

Seller should pay shipping both ways. End of story. It doesn't matter whether the seller's mistake was intentional or not (and how could we ever know?). It's his mistake either way, not the buyer's. The seller should also be contrite and offer an apology for wasting the buyer's time.

[dimsy]

there are several courses of action, most of which will result in a FULL refund including shipping, contact the seller first. if that doesnt work out... ebay's dispute center is your next bet, let them sort it out, just be sure any messages you send are via the ebay message center and not via your personal email. they will sort it out and ultimately if it was misrepresented... you'll get a full refund. the entire process takes up to 60 days though, but you will get all your money refunded.

paypal is another option if that's what you used to pay for the item. i believe turnover is about the same amount of time as ebay.

Good luck.

[AndrewS]

I'm surprised how one sided this is against the seller. The frame is a "60cm" by at least one way of measuring. It is not being sold by the maker, it doesn't have a mark on it from the maker stating its correct size and there is no universal measuring method for bicycles.

The buyer apparently knows how to confirm a manufacturer's frame size using other measurements. Given that, why didn't he do it before he bought, and having failed to do so, why is it suddenly the seller's fault?

Let's be specific here; there is nothing about the phrase "Size 60cm" that tells you much of anything important about how a frame will fit. If you're not asking the relevant questions, then you're going to get what you asked for and nothing more.


This is no different than buying a "complete Super Record group" and then complaining that you've been mislead when it turns out to have been made in 1982.

[retrogrouchy]

I'm surprised how one sided this is against the seller. The frame is a "60cm" by at least one way of measuring. It is not being sold by the maker, it doesn't have a mark on it from the maker stating its correct size and there is no universal measuring method for bicycles.

The buyer apparently knows how to confirm a manufacturer's frame size using other measurements. Given that, why didn't he do it before he bought, and having failed to do so, why is it suddenly the seller's fault?

Let's be specific here; there is nothing about the phrase "Size 60cm" that tells you much of anything important about how a frame will fit. If you're not asking the relevant questions, then you're going to get what you asked for and nothing more.


This is no different than buying a "complete Super Record group" and then complaining that you've been mislead when it turns out to have been made in 1982.

Huh? I think you're still grumpy about that small-frame thing, and it's clouding your thinking. You seem to be looking for fights now. Chill out. The real Super Record parts were made from 1973-1987, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. I believe the OP verified the size with the seller before bidding, then it wasn't what the seller confirmed it to be when it was received. Big diff-france, as the French chefs say. And a 58 c-c wouldn't be a 60 c-t anyways. The difference is 1.5 cm between the two methods....

[AndrewS]

I'm taking the same perspective I did when I first posted on this thread. If the seller measured to the top of the seat tube/collar, rather than to the seat/top tube junction it would come out as a 60.

Are YOU saying the seller purposely mis-labeled a more valuable 58cm frame as 60? Why would they do that?

My point was simply that Ebay is not a bike shop. You can't expect every seller to be a subject matter expert and if you have the ability to get better information, it's on YOU to do so.


But thanks for the psychoanalysis. Getting it free here is really great.

[retrogrouchy]

No problem. Always happy to assist in any way I can! That'll be a hundred bucks, by the way.... :cool:

[soupless]

Split the shipping if he/she allows the return.
Get your **** straight before you bid.