Independent Fabrications demo - interesting test ride

[saab2000]

Hi Kids,

So I go over to Plum Grove Bicycles here in Leesburg about 1 hour ago to order a Velocity Aerohead offset rim. As some of you know, I have become a zealot regarding rear wheel dish......

Anyway, the main owner of the shop says that the president of IF will be holding court this evening for questions and answers and for us to fondle various IF bikes. Sort of an open house, but out of house.

Well, I wander back to the back and the man is there. I do not know what his name is or anything about him, but he seems like a pretty nice guy. He also has his own personal bike there and within 10 seconds says, "Go ahead, take it out for a spin." So I do.

A couple of observations:

Full Record Group
The new Mavic Carbone clinchers
Frameset is just like an Ottrott - Ti "lugs" with carbon tubes, made by Reynolds.

The bike was stable and handled nicely. It was also pretty light. Easily the most expensive bike I have ever ridden. It was probably a $10,000 bike. It had the latest ITM carbon bars (Swords, or something like that) and an ITM stem.

Anyway, it was pretty cool. I cannot afford such a bike, but I will go over this evening to see what is going on. I must say that it is sort of seductive to sit on such a fine machine. I could get used to that.

IF has never really registered with me, but I have always heard good things about them. Anyone here have any IF stories?

[coylifut]

...who's a cat 1, won last year's state championship on a TIG welded steel (I beleive 853) IF. He's had it for quite a while. I remember this bike most for it's massive (I mean huge, gigantic...) chain stays. He's since moved on to a new club and a new Time.

[Climb01742]

i'm guessing the guy you met is matt bracken. very nice guy. i happened to be at the IF factory the day or two before inter-bike when they were shipping frames and saw their carbon/ti frame. very fancy. i own an IF ti CJ and its wonderful. their factory is like an over-grown garage owned by a crew of bike maniacs...folks who love and live and breathe bikes and who've banned together to build 'em. a cool funky company. kinda below the radar. but very high quality, IMO.

[Big Dan]

:crap: Saab..asking him what's up with the shorty headtubes? I like the bikes and feel like the geometry could work for me, but the short headtube makes me wonder.....

[saab2000]

I just talked to him about the design of his bikes, but not specifically about the headtubes. He claims that his bikes are racing bikes and not just things for riding around town. That sounds a bit harsh to some, but it jives with what I saw. His new carbon/ti XS is a beauti for sure. But it was set up as a race bike. No spacers, no high rise bars, etc.

I suppose he sees long head tubes as compromising handling. He seemed to know his stuff, though I cannot prove it because I don't know my stuff...... But he seemed to have pretty definitive opinions about trail and weight balance, etc.

But I do know that the XS was a darn nice ride! Just out of my budget.... as are the equally fine rides from Serotta.

[Bradford]

I have a couple of IFs and think they are great bikes. Their touring bike, the Independence, is a perfect touring bike. It rides very well with four full panniers and but still feels good when unloaded. With all the crappy weather, it’s all I’ve been riding; the fat tires and fenders have really come in handy.

I also have a steel Crown Jewel I’ve had for 2 years. It is a nice bike and I’ve been happy with it. I’ve done everything from fast group rides to unloaded touring and the ride has been great. For those of you who care about aesthetics, it’s hard to find a nicer looking welded bike. Not only are their welds impressive, their paint is second to none (at least second to no other manufacturers, I’m sure JB’s stuff is better). If anybody is looking for a used CJ, I’ll be selling mine (60X59) in the next month or two, as soon as I can find some time to clean it up, take some pictures, and put it on ebay. It may be a nice bike, but since I bought a Legend ST, it's hard to justify keeping it.

I haven’t had the opportunity to ride the Ti or Ti/Carbon mix, but based on the two bikes I have, I would expect to like them.

I also think it is the kind of company we should feel good about supporting. Hard working people trying hard to make the best product they can.

[Tony Edwards]

Here, in all its glory, is the Independent Fabrication XS (http://ifbikes.com/frames2/xs.shtml), the bike you rode.

I had no idea they were making such a thing, and it sells for an eye-popping $5500 (admittedly with fork). Since it obviously doesn't have Colorado Concept tubes, it seems to me this bike is more similar to a Nove ST than an Ottrott, but a lot more expensive. I know price is essentially academic up in the Ottrott/XS stratosphere, but I think I'd take Serotta's decades of road-bike building experience given the choice (that's not to say IF can't build a wonderful road bike, or that this isn't a beautiful piece - it is now my desktop wallpaper, in fact).

Looking at the IF design (which, unlike the Ottrott and Nove, has a carbon seat tube), it seems to me the only benefit of the ti seat cluster and headtube (as opposed to using CF) are that they facilitate custom angles. I can see some benefit to the ti chainstays, but on balance I'm not sure I really "get" the ti/carbon bikes, particularly when they cost $5500 for frame and fork.

[don compton]

dear riders,
i have a c-111 and a legend and recently purchased an if crown jewel se. my communication with serotta was only with the dealer. my communication with if was with both the dealer and matt bracken at if. i have a bad back( 4 degenerated discs) and a custom frame is an absolute necessity. my frames need to be designed very upright and short. if you could look at my serotta's geometry you might notice why i feel that they are twitchy on downhills and when cornering. matt and had a great discussion about my experience and he decided that my bike should have a more relaxed headtube and whatever trail that he decided and i could have a short reach bike including a short stem. i picked the bike in december and haven't ridden any of my other bikes since.
don't get me wrong, i think that the serottas are incredible bicycles. however, if i want to ride for any length of time and have the bars where i need them the bikes are a real handful. the dealer that i bought them from is a nice guy, but the communication was lacking.
don compton

[saab2000]

I don't know enough about the Ottrott ST to make a comparison. But Matt told me that the carbon stays on the XS do NOT pivot, so it really is not comparable to the ST design. I suppose there is meant to be some "vertical compliance" on the XS rear curved seat stay, but it seems to me that Ti stays would be better for that purpose and that having the carbon is just for marketing and aesthetics. That said, it did look terrific.

Is the frame worth $5500? Of course not. My ride on it was nice, but it did not just blow my mind. My other relatively high-end bike seemed just as nice. Of course, I only rode about 2 miles in non-cycling clothing. I am not sure that any frame is worth that kind of coin, except that people will pay for it. I am not being critical of those who do. If I could afford it I would probably have a few ultra high-end bikes like that myself.

FWIW, the bike had the Campagnolo Compact crankset and front der and seemed to work really nicely. I can see why people like the compact cranks I guess.

The level of craftsmanship and attention to detail on Matt's XS was top notch, as you would expect on a bike for price. I would love to have one. I would also love to have a Legend Ti or a C-50 or a Parlee or Moots. You get the picture..... :beer:

[davids]

:crap: Saab..asking him what's up with the shorty headtubes? I like the bikes and feel like the geometry could work for me, but the short headtube makes me wonder.....
I know this has been discussed before, but can someone tell me why headtube length matters? It seems like a less-than-critical dimension to me (and looking at IF's bikes, I don't see a noticably shorter headtube.) :confused:

Thanks,

[duke]

Speaking of the short head tube, I think all IF bikes are now custom, so you could get the length head tube desired. When I bought my steel CJewel four years ago, I spec'd a 2 cm headtube extension and it was done at no extra cost.

[saab2000]

I guess some people like to have longer heat tubes in order to avoid having a lot o' spacers below the stem.

I do not understand design enough to comment on that, but that is the way it is on a lot of bikes in the photo gallery here and at other web sites. Lots of riders like to have their bars nearly level with the seat.

Me? Get that stem down as far as possible!!

[dirtdigger88]

I am going to bet that they do have short headtubes- To get the TT length that I would need I would have to get a 56 or a 57- my Legend is a 60- A 56 or a 57 is going to have a shorter HT relative to my 60- Not a bad or good thing- just a thing. This is just like my Lemond (a 57) and the HT is about 4cm shorter than the one on my Legend

Saab- just so ya know- I have 8.5 cm drop from my saddle to my bars-

jason

[saab2000]

I make no judgement at all one how people have their saddle to bar drop. I guess my post sounded like it.

Everyone has their specific requirements to get a bike to fit comfortably.

I know too little about design to make any sort of reasonable comment on head tube length or anything else for that matter. My observation is simply that a lot of people have very little difference between the height of their saddle and the height of the bars.

The IF XS was a nice bike and far and away the most expensive I have ever ridden.

[dirtdigger88]

Saab- I think you misunderstood what I ment (or I didnt say it very well) I was just commenting on the relative HT length- I was really just saying that I too feel they have short HTs and I also think the have fairly long TT for the ST size- I only pointed out my saddle to bar drop to show that I have a decent amount of drop but I still think the HT is a bit short- We both agree the bike is nice-

Jason

[saab2000]

The bike sure is nice!!! Wish I had one! Head tube or not! :beer:

[Big Dan]

I know this has been discussed before, but can someone tell me why headtube length matters? It seems like a less-than-critical dimension to me (and looking at IF's bikes, I don't see a noticably shorter headtube.) :confused:

Thanks,


I'll throw some numbers and you can make your own decision.....

Stock geometry

IF 56 TT 130.9 headtube
Serotta 56 TT 148 headtube
Pegoretti 55.8 TT 165 headtube
Colnago 56.3 TT 159 headtube


On my Serotta 56 I use 10 mm of spacers, how many more spacers do I need on the IF to have the same position?........ :confused:

[dirtdigger88]

big dan- then throw in the lower BB of the Serotta and add another 1cm spacer to the mix-

also if you ride a "stock" Serotta 56 (assume a 56 TT) then you would ride a 54 or 55 IF- so now add 1 more 1cm spacer because the HT just got shorter yet-

Jason

[Big Dan]

DD that's what I was trying to say. It's not that I use a weird high handlebar set up, but those numbers look a little short for my set up.....Even my Merckx Corsa is in the 140's for a 56............. :bike:

[Orin]

I'll throw some numbers and you can make your own decision.....

Stock geometry

IF 56 TT 130.9 headtube
Serotta 56 TT 148 headtube
Pegoretti 55.8 TT 165 headtube
Colnago 56.3 TT 159 headtube


On my Serotta 56 I use 10 mm of spacers, how many more spacers do I need on the IF to have the same position?........ :confused:

However, check the numbers under the IF Ti Crown Jewel specs...

56 TT, 149.5 HT, 55 Size.

Orin.

[Bradford]

You should also remember that IF is a custom shop. My steel CJ is a custom, as is my Legend ST (although neither was custom for me). Both headtubes are the same. Just like Serotta and Burger King, IF will make it just like you want it.

[Big Dan]

The numbers I provided were for steel models including the steel CJ... :)

[Climb01742]

for what it's worth, just measured my IF ti CJ -- it's a custom but in the 54-55 neighborhood -- and the headtube is 148ish. but even more important -- and frustrating -- right now is the 6 more inches of snow that's in my yard. so measuring my IF is as close as i'll get to using it for awhile. :fight:

[Orin]

The numbers I provided were for steel models including the steel CJ... :)

Yes, I should have noted that. I edited my post...

Orin.

[davids]

Thanks guys - I think I was trying to make this particular measurement much more significant than it it. Longer head tube = fewer spacers. We're not screwing with top tube length, front-center, or anything like that...

I'vce often noticed that Pegs have headtubes that extend pretty far above the toptube. It's not something I've consistently noticed with other makers.

And speaking of Pegs - I finally saw a Duende in the flesh at the Boston Bike Show yesterday. That sounds like the Pegoretti for me! :D