customizing 11 speed

[Rueda Tropical]

Is there a way you could make up a 14-29 Campagnolo 11 speed cassette:
(14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,23,26,29)

from the parts used in the existing cassettes? Can a 14 cog be in the first position? I think the big cogs come in 3's. Is there any combo of parts from 2 cassettes that could accomplish this?

[RPS]

Rueda, not what you asked but why not go with standard off-the-shelf equipment? :confused: For instance, have you considered a 12-25 with smaller rings?

12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-25
vs.
14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-23-26-29

From a range standpoint a 14-29 falls under what I call the double plus one cassette arrangement which is very common. The 11-23 and 12-25 come to mind. The big cog is twice the size of the small plus one tooth more. Functionally they’d be very similar if applied with proportionally smaller rings. The main problem is you may be looking at very small rings depending on what you plan to use with the 14-29.

[sg8357]

Campy makes a 14-23 cassette used for Junior racing, in Veloce, so you can dismantle that and get your gearing.

[Ralph]

I feel kinda the same way about the new 11 speed stuff. I only want/need about a 100" gear on top. So a 52X14, or 48-49-50 X 13 is about all I am interested in. Have no need for any cassette starting with 11 or 12. If I were a lot stronger, maybe then. I'm currently accumulating parts for a new frame build, and would buy a new 11 group if cassette started with 13....then I would probably run a compact with 38-50 in front. Saving the 34 for when riding in real hilly area.

[Dave]

You question has already been answered at weight weenies (no).

There's no point is even buying 11 speed if you don't want the extra gearing range it offers. Campy offers a 13-29 10 speed cassette.

You can't use Veloce 10 cogs with 11 speed.

[fiamme red]

Rueda, not what you asked but why not go with standard off-the-shelf equipment? :confused: For instance, have you considered a 12-25 with smaller rings?Maybe he already has a 135 mm or 130 mm BCD crank, and doesn't want to buy a new one.

[thwart]

Theres no point is even buying 11 speed if you don't want the extra gearing range it offers. Ah, a voice of reason.

I can't see 11 speed for most folks; 10 speed certainly has ratios spaced close enough if you're running a 12-25 cassette or something smaller. For that matter, I suppose many might say the same about 9 speed... and be right.

However, if when you look at a 13-29 you really, really want to exchange that 13 cog for a 12...

But I left out the need for style points and such... which is OK, don't get me wrong... ;) :D

[RPS]

Maybe he already has a 135 mm or 130 mm BCD crank, and doesn't want to buy a new one.
I understand that. If he is planning on using standard 53-39 with the 14-29 cassette he would have to downsize rings to something around 34-46 for the standard Campy 12-25 to give him similar gearing. Once done though, he'd be set and can them replace cassettes on a normal basis long-term.

The tougher part is if he is already using 50-34 or a triple and plans to use 14-29 with that. At that point he'd have to go to non-standard cranks to duplicate the desired gearing.

The other issue is that if he eliminates the 12 and 13 from a 12-29 (assuming that's what he starts with) he'll have to add two additional cogs in the middle of the cassette. And even if he doesn't use the 12 and 13 very often or at all, how much does anyone really need two more cogs when you have 11 to start with? :confused:

[Tobias]

I feel kinda the same way about the new 11 speed stuff. I only want/need about a 100" gear on top. So a 52X14, or 48-49-50 X 13 is about all I am interested in. Have no need for any cassette starting with 11 or 12. If I were a lot stronger, maybe then. I'm currently accumulating parts for a new frame build, and would buy a new 11 group if cassette started with 13....then I would probably run a compact with 38-50 in front. Saving the 34 for when riding in real hilly area.
You can get 100 inches with a 45/12 or 44/12 depending on tire size.

No disrespect meant here, but a lot of these counter arguments must be based on ego. A 50-13 looks normal, while a 44-12 looks tiny.

Mechanically there is little "need" to use a 13 or 14 small cog and work up from there. One could argue that it's easier on the chain, bearings, etc. but that's mostly a red herring. Mountain bikes with very strong riders and even tandems have been using cassettes with 11 tooth cogs for over a decade, and it works.

If a rider doesn't need a 50-11 or 50-12 high gear because they are not strong enough then it's highly unlikely they will cause any damage or fast wear on a 44-11 or 48-12 top gear.

I also understand the need to look faster with a bigger ring. :beer:

[fiamme red]

Mountain bikes with very strong riders and even tandems have been using cassettes with 11 tooth cogs for over a decade, and it works.And there's no question that an 11t cog that gets frequent use will wear out much faster than a 14t cog. Chordal action is real for very small sprockets: http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/01/52x12-vs-52x11-gearing-look-at-chordal.html.

Please, you and RPS have made this point a hundred times before. Enough with the microdrive evangelism.

[RPS]

And there's no question that an 11t cog that gets frequent use will wear out much faster than a 14t cog. Chordal action is real for very small sprockets: http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/01/52x12-vs-52x11-gearing-look-at-chordal.html.

Please, you and RPS have made this point a hundred times before. Enough with the microdrive evangelism.
Sorry, but if you don’t like evangelism don’t go to church. A forum is a place to share opinions and sometimes knowledge. That’s pretty freaking simple, isn’t it?

If you don’t like my religion don’t read the gospel. Or better yet convince me I’m wrong. Disagreeing alone won’t sensor me. If we dealt only with factual matters this place would be dead.


And talking about freaking stupidity and preaching to the choir, that article was written on January 28, 2010. I studied that in engineering school over three decades ago and brought it up in a thread on this forum over 3 years ago when most of you didn’t know what the hell it was. The first reaction from the peanut gallery was to ridicule me. Funny thing is that shortly after that I saw the subject come up on a regular basis.

If I didn’t care enough about small-minded people enough to stop posting then I’m not about to start now.

[Ralph]

You can get 100 inches with a 45/12 or 44/12 depending on tire size.

No disrespect meant here, but a lot of these counter arguments must be based on ego. A 50-13 looks normal, while a 44-12 looks tiny.

Mechanically there is little "need" to use a 13 or 14 small cog and work up from there. One could argue that it's easier on the chain, bearings, etc. but that's mostly a red herring. Mountain bikes with very strong riders and even tandems have been using cassettes with 11 tooth cogs for over a decade, and it works.

If a rider doesn't need a 50-11 or 50-12 high gear because they are not strong enough then it's highly unlikely they will cause any damage or fast wear on a 44-11 or 48-12 top gear.

I also understand the need to look faster with a bigger ring. :beer:

Those are good points....And I have actually thought about buying a new Athena or Chorus Groupset with the new 12-29 and a Compact 34-50 crankset....then getting a 110 TA (Campy sized 110) in ramped and pinned 45 or 46 TA outer chainring that will work in 11 speed crankset. I suspect the one TA makes for 10 speed will work OK. I have no problem with miniturizing the parts....if the FD would work OK.

[fiamme red]

I have about five standard (i.e., non-compact) double cranksets sitting around in my parts closet. If I asked about modifying a cassette in order to get the gearing I want, I'd be a little annoyed by responses telling me to buy a new crankset.

[Tobias]

I have about five standard (i.e., non-compact) double cranksets sitting around in my parts closet. If I asked about modifying a cassette in order to get the gearing I want, I'd be a little annoyed by responses telling me to buy a new crankset.
That's fair. But you are not Rueda Tropical -- as far as we know.

Also, suggesting other options in a "helpful" and respectful manner is not the same as "telling" anyone to do anything. Your point was made.

[fiamme red]

Sorry, but if you don’t like evangelism don’t go to church. A forum is a place to share opinions and sometimes knowledge. That’s pretty freaking simple, isn’t it?

If you don’t like my religion don’t read the gospel. Or better yet convince me I’m wrong. Disagreeing alone won’t sensor me. If we dealt only with factual matters this place would be dead.I'm reminded of some exchanges on bicycle newsgroups. Someone would ask about a problem with saddle sores, and one of the recumbent evangelists would give his predictable (and annoying) answer to get a 'bent. The recumbent fanatics weren't exactly wrong, but their answer wasn't very relevant.

[Tobias]

Please, you and RPS have made this point a hundred times before. Enough with the microdrive evangelism.
Exactly what do you consider a microdrive? It sounds like a computer part, like a thumb drive or something non-cycling.

To be clear, are you refering to any drive that has a cassette with an 11T? Or 12T? If so, that's going to make things hard to separate since most OEM cassettes now days have either a 11 or 12. I'm not sure what your definition is so can't respond to the technical merit of your comment. Actually, I'm not sure you made a technical statement at all.

Is it any compact? Or any sub-compact with less than 110 BC?

[Tobias]

I'm reminded of some exchanges on bicycle newsgroups. Someone would ask about a problem with saddle sores, and one of the recumbent evangelists would give his predictable (and annoying) answer to get a 'bent. The recumbent fanatics weren't exactly wrong, but their answer wasn't very relevant.
That's a flawed analogy in this context. A rider (Rueda) wants to custom make a non-standard cassette to solve a problem that has a widely accepted solution already.

Your analogy would be more like a rider asking whether he should wear three or four pairs of shorts to solve a saddle sore problem, and informed riders reply back that he should check his position, look at different saddles, and different shorts. In this case the answer doesn't address the question directly because it's so "out there".

[fiamme red]

Exactly what do you consider a microdrive? It sounds like a computer part, like a thumb drive or something non-cycling.

To be clear, are you refering to any drive that has a cassette with an 11T? Or 12T? If so, that's going to make things hard to separate since most OEM cassettes now days have either a 11 or 12. I'm not sure what your definition is so can't respond to the technical merit of your comment. Actually, I'm not sure you made a technical statement at all.

Is it any compact? Or any sub-compact with less than 110 BC?Sorry for not being clear. What I call "microdrive" was Suntour's name for compact drive (e.g., a 44-34-22 crankset with a small cog of 11t) that has stuck with me all these years.

By the way, I like cassettes starting with a 14t cog. The geared bike that I ride most has a 52/42/30 crank and a 14-25 9-speed cassette. Gearing is a matter of personal preference, and this combination works very well for me. But I'd prefer if the largest three cogs were 21-24-27 instead of 21-23-25.

[Tobias]

Sorry for not being clear. What I call "microdrive" was Suntour's name for compact drive (i.e., e.g., a 44-34-22 crankset with a small cog of 11t) that has stuck with me all these years.
But that's clearly not what I (or RPS as far as I can tell) was refering to. We were asking about why not consider compact drives with smaller rings to yield the same gearing. That's a different issue.

The reason Campy and Shimano and Sram don't make non-junior cassettes with 14T small cogs is that there are more disadvantages than advantages. But in the end, if Rueda wants one to run with a big ring more power to him. I am all about being able to make individual choices.

[fiamme red]

But in the end, if Rueda wants one to run with a big ring more power to him. I am all about being able to make individual choices.I'm entirely in accord with you on that. :beer:

[cody.wms]

then getting a 110 TA (Campy sized 110) in ramped and pinned 45 or 46 TA outer chainring that will work in 11 speed crankset. I suspect the one TA makes for 10 speed will work OK. I have no problem with miniturizing the parts....if the FD would work OK.

Not sure if your aware, but TA is making 11 speed specific chainrings too.

I like having a 12-25 50/34 combo, but I could easily get away with a 50/36/7/8 and the 12-25 for most rides. Eventually, Id like to have my 34 inner, a 36/7/8 inner, my 12-25 cassette, and the 12-29. That way I'd have the ability to change gearing for any ride.

[AndrewS]

A lot of debate without hearing from the OP exactly why such a cassette is needed. Especially the parts about "ego" in gearing selection are pretty funny.

What is the Junior gearing rule? Is it a tooth limit (which wouldn't make sense anymore, but would have in the '70s), or a gear inch limit? Can you use a 12 as long as your big ring is small enough to counter it?

I used to think a 53x13 high gear was sufficient and made more gears actually useful, but on some of the rides around here I sometimes wish I had bigger than the 53x12 I currently use on the downhills. Usually when a friend with a 50x11 is slowly passing me. :)


Compact gearing is pretty neato as it gives you a wider gear ratio range at less chain capacity. But I like the look of 130/135 cranks and the possible advantages in wear.

[palincss]

Exactly what do you consider a microdrive? It sounds like a computer part, like a thumb drive or something non-cycling.

To be clear, are you refering to any drive that has a cassette with an 11T? Or 12T? If so, that's going to make things hard to separate since most OEM cassettes now days have either a 11 or 12. I'm not sure what your definition is so can't respond to the technical merit of your comment. Actually, I'm not sure you made a technical statement at all.

Is it any compact? Or any sub-compact with less than 110 BC?

This is where the term began:



http://www.bikepro.com/arch_products/cranks/a_crank_gifs/o1o_xc_pro_md.gif
SUNTOUR XC PRO MICRO DRIVE CRANKSET

This is the crankset that started the compact crank/drive train revolution. The XC Pro MD arms are both cold forged for Suntour in the Sugino cold forging facility, (who you may remember makes the Ritchey and Specialized cranks sets as well as the Sugino brand name). SR/Suntour's forging facility is capable only of Impression die forging which they refer to as "Accurad." The arms are received from Sugino and are then hand polished and Silver (clear) anodized. The arms are 32.5mm wide at the pedal spindle, and remains at roughly a 25.4mm width through the length. The left arm is 37.25mm wide at the B/B spindle. The arms of the spider on the right arm are just 103mm across. The XC Pro MD cranks come with three round chainrings. The middle and outer made of "grey" anodized aluminum, while the inner 20 tooth chainring is made of stainless steel for long life. The aluminum rings are die cut from 3.5mm aluminum plate, and then turned on a lathe to taper the backside for easy chain engagement, and to taper the teeth precisely to fit current narrow chains. The outer chainring has an anti-jam pin driven into the perimeter at the crank arm. The mid/outer and inner fixing bolts are made of nickel plated steel with a 5mm hex head fitting for ease of removal. The XC Pro Micro Drive cranks come with chrome plated, snap-in plastic crank arm caps, which will be needed if you elect not to use the XC Pro Grease Guard B/B. These cranks will work with any 2 degree tapered spindle bottom bracket. We found the XC Pro MD cranks has a Bike-Pro Q measurement of 158mm. XC Pro Micro Drive cranks are made in 170mm, 175mm, or 177.5mm lengths with 20-32-42 tooth chainrings. XC Pro Micro Drive cranks come as right arm, left arm, three chainrings, all the required fixing bolts and the plastic crank arm caps. XC Pro Micro Drive 175mm cranks with 20- 32-42 chainrings, with all included parts, weigh 647 grams. When ordering specify length. These are no longer made. In 1994 we sold them for $159.99
--http://www.bikepro.com/arch_products/cranks/a-suntour-crank.html

[shiftyfixedgear]

Couldn't one argue that the 1970's Shimano Dura-Ace 10mm pitch Track drivetrain was in reality the first "micro-drive" set up ?

There were pictures of a prototype 10mm pitch ROAD drivetrain also, but it never went into production.

[Rueda Tropical]

I have a beautiful alloy Record crank that I thought about putting silver Athena chainrings on and going 11 with Athena group. No third party 49T or 50T big ring in silver for 11 speed. I also have a new gen Centaur brifter that could be upgraded to 11. The Record crank with Phil Titanium bb is lighter then the new Athena (not that it matters) and to me looks at lot better.

Looking at the possible combos of 11 spd cassettes there is no way to do it. I could just get a 12-29 and not use the smallest sprockets (making it a 10spd 13-29) or just stick with 10 and have the flexibility of TA chainrings up front in any configuration I want with more cassette config choices.

I have no "need" to go to 11 but then I had no need to go from 9 to 10 either. About the only thing I'd say that was a real improvement for me in drivetrains over the years was the move to brifters and now the new Campy brifter shape with much improved braking from the hoods and much better platform for the hands.

Thanks for the replies.

[Dave]

Upgrading a 2009 Centaur shifter to 11 speed is not as cheap as it once was. Campy quit selling the seperate parts for this change. Now you have to buy a $100 assmbly to do this, unless you have access to a broken shifter for parts. That's how I did it. I took a wreck damaged shifter and stole the parts from it.