Campy 11 Climbing Cassette

[Lovetoclimb]

Does anyone have knowledge they want to drop on me about the forthcoming or already released 12-29 Campy 11 cassette range? Looking to get my bike ready for a spring training in the Blue Ridge Mtns. My fitness would hopefully be able to take the 11-25 cassette, but I have my reservations.

Thanks for the help.

[palincss]

Does anyone have knowledge they want to drop on me about the forthcoming or already released 12-29 Campy 11 cassette range? Looking to get my bike ready for a spring training in the Blue Ridge Mtns. My fitness would hopefully be able to take the 11-25 cassette, but I have my reservations.

Thanks for the help.

You mean, other than that it costs $470?
http://www.glorycycles.com/ca20sure11ca.html

After that, I'm not really sure there's anything left to say...

Well, I guess there's this:
http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/newsdetail/newsid_116_newscatid_3.jsp
and this:
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B618incIkE-tZTg5M2Y1YTgtODFmYy00YWZmLTk1NmEtMWQzZDcyNmY0ZTE4&hl=en

[Pete Serotta]

Chorus cassette is available in 12x27 now and a 12x29 is available in Europe but not yet in the US from what I hear.

No reason to get a Record or Super Record unless you like the looks and spends mucho $$.

[thwart]

Coolio...

Now one RD cage length can 'officially' go from 11-23 to 12-29.

I have a couple of bikes with short cage RD's that have been 'unofficially' doing that (in 10 speed) for the past couple of years...

[Tobias]

You mean, other than that it costs $470?
http://www.glorycycles.com/ca20sure11ca.html

After that, I'm not really sure there's anything left to say...

Well, I guess there's this:
http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/newsdetail/newsid_116_newscatid_3.jsp
and this:
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B618incIkE-tZTg5M2Y1YTgtODFmYy00YWZmLTk1NmEtMWQzZDcyNmY0ZTE4&hl=en
What I find even harder to buy is the Campy comparison from your link stating that a 50/34 compact with this new 12-29 is similar to a triple with the previous 13-29.

Exactly how is a 34/29 ratio similar to a 30/29? Isn't there significant difference between 30 and 34? It's over 10 percent difference.

I don't get how these companies are trying to move their stuff.

[thwart]

I think they are comparing the 'typical or traditional equipment' 12-25 cassette combined with a 52/40/30 triple; it's very similar indeed to the lower end gearing of a 13-29 (or pricey 12-29) cassette with a 50/34 compact.

[Tobias]

I think they are comparing the 'typical or traditional equipment' 12-25 cassette combined with a 52/40/30 triple; it's very similar indeed to the lower end gearing of a 13-29 (or pricey 12-29) cassette with a 50/34 compact.
Not what I was refering to. At the bottom of one of the pages there is a link to another page which compares compact with 12-29 versus traditional 53-42-30 triple with previous 13-29. It is very clear.

I tried to copy part of the paragraph but it locked me up twice. It must be copy protected. This may get you there.

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/newsdetail/newsid_124_newscatid_3.jsp

[Tobias]

Copied from Campy:

"Taking as an example a classic triple configuration (53-42-30) associated with a 13-29 sprocket set and comparing it with a compact 50-34 and the brand new 12-29 sprocket set, it is not surprising to note that the new sprocket with 29 teeth associated with the 34 of the compact allows metric developments similar to those of a triple crankset with a rear sprocket 29 (30 cm of difference)."

[RPS]

Does anyone have knowledge they want to drop on me about the forthcoming or already released 12-29 Campy 11 cassette range? Looking to get my bike ready for a spring training in the Blue Ridge Mtns. My fitness would hopefully be able to take the 11-25 cassette, but I have my reservations.

Thanks for the help.
What size rings are you using? Double, compact, triple....? Cassettes are only half the picture.

[cody.wms]

Competitive Cyclist says 2/26. Link (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-components/2010-campagnolo-chorus-11-cassette-5270.22.1.html)

[Pete Serotta]

oh yes, for me there is a big difference verses a compact.... :bike:

Not what I was refering to. At the bottom of one of the pages there is a link to another page which compares compact with 12-29 versus traditional 53-42-30 triple with previous 13-29. It is very clear.

I tried to copy part of the paragraph but it locked me up twice. It must be copy protected. This may get you there.

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/newsdetail/newsid_124_newscatid_3.jsp

[rustychain]

I ride the Blue Ridge and Skyline drive often. Climbs are not long and seldom hit 8 percent and are mostly between 4 and 6. I have a 50x34 with a 11x25 and never need the 25(or the 23). IMO a 50 x36 with a 11(12?) x25 will take even a semi fit cyclist up these grades with ease. I have needed the 34x25 on some of the roads around the Blue Ridge that have averages of 10 degrees and more. I am not a climber by any means however. My point being there is no need to go with extreme gearing for the Blue Ridge

[Dave]

Let's skip all the exaggerations and misleading statements and get down to some facts.

You don't have to spend $470 to get a 12-29 cassette. Chorus level cassettes can be had for as low as $106. It might be another month or so before those become readily available. The high priced Record and SR versions came out first. In addition to costing a lot more, those Ti cogs will last about half as long, so they are not a wise choice for most riders.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Cassettes-Road-Campagnolo-11-Spd-Chorus-Cassette/CAMPCASS700

There are other options, like the 12-27 that I'm already using on my winter bike. I'll rarely use the 34/27 even in the Colorado mountains, but it's nice to know I've got it, if needed.

As for the low gear ratios, it's simple to make an accurate comparison with triple gearing. Of course a 30/29 is not the same as a 34/29. A simple calculation shows how the two compare. 29/34x30 = 25.6 That tells you that a 34/29 is in between a 30/25 and a 30/26. If you need a 30/29, then the compact option won't provide that much low gear. A 34/27 is like a 30/24.

And yes, I know that you can put as small as a 24T ring on a triple to get even lower gears with a triple crank. You can also put together an 11 speed triple drivetrain quite easily.

[RPS]

oh yes, for me there is a big difference verses a compact.... :bike:
I'd take the triple any day also.

It took me a while to “reverse engineer” how they came up with a "30 CM difference" between the two drivetrains being compared. I should have learned how Europeans calculate their gearing earlier. :rolleyes:

What I find silly is the comparison between the two on a table basis and pointing out which gears are the same, as if that has any real-world meaning.

[sevencyclist]

Copied from Campy:

"Taking as an example a classic triple configuration (53-42-30) associated with a 13-29 sprocket set and comparing it with a compact 50-34 and the brand new 12-29 sprocket set, it is not surprising to note that the new sprocket with 29 teeth associated with the 34 of the compact allows metric developments similar to those of a triple crankset with a rear sprocket 29 (30 cm of difference)."
I agree someone have their math wrong at Campy. 34/29 is definitely not 30/29.

To hijack the thread a little: I have been toying with the idea of using the SRAM XX series rear with 11-36 and pair that with a SRAM compact 50/34 to give a better climbing bike for randonneur. That 34/36 would be great for a climb at the end of randonneur ride. And that 50/11 front is actually faster than what triples can give you with 12/29 or 13/29.

Thoughts anyone?

[Dave]

Regarding the use of a 50/34 with an 11-36, I'd hate all those large jumps between the gears. Most road riders don't even like losing the 16T cog between the 15 and 17.

I'd much prefer a triple 53/39/28 with a 12-29 to get a similar low gear. A 53/12 and 50/11 are also about the same. A 12-29 11 speed has very small jumps until you get to the 23-26-29 and even those are only in the 11-12% range - quite accetable.

[RPS]

I agree someone have their math wrong at Campy. 34/29 is definitely not 30/29.
To their credit they don't say it is the same, "just" 30 CM of difference.

It appears that Europeans calculate inch-gear in metric but include "pie", which then makes the number bigger. The 30 CM of difference works out to about 4-inch-gear the way we calculate gearing instead of about 12 inches.

They are just playing with numbers since a 13 percent difference (34 versus 30) at that low a number is only about 4-inch-gear. :rolleyes:

[Tobias]

Competitive Cyclist says 2/26. Link (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-components/2010-campagnolo-chorus-11-cassette-5270.22.1.html)
Good data, thanks.

When a Chorus road cassette starts pushing 300 grams it's a sign that perhaps a triple with smaller cassette should be evaluated. Weight penalty won't be all that much and gearing will be much closer or tighter.

I'll admit to being biased on this. A 12-29 cassette doesn't make as much sense to me as an 11-26 or 11-27 with smaller chainrings, or better yet an 11-23 or 11-25 with a compact triple.

I know it's going against the trend since even mountain bikes seem to be shifting towards doubles but to me it just doesn't make sense. In my opinion what we need are triples with lower Q and better shifting. It's hard to argue with their gearing flexibility.

[Lovetoclimb]

Right now I have a 53/39 front and 11-25 rear. I did not consider the compact crank because I thought it would be ridiculous expensive vs. just a Chorus or lower on the ladder cassette. Climbing in Cincinnati can be done easily enough in the 23-25 gears on back so this cassette would only be for occasional trips to the mountains.

I do consider myself a reasonable strong climber though, so I appreciate hearing from people who have climbed in the Blue Ridge and SMokies before. Only experience I have was last year's Cherohala Challenge which I used the same ratio for and made it up the skyway in my smallest gear with great difficulty of course.

One question about compact cranks? If I did put one on, what kind of modifications does it require to the rest of the drivetrain to compensate?

[Dave]

There is no 11 speed cassette lower than the Chorus level. Athena uses Chorus cassettes.

A compact crank would require no change other than lowering the FD down about 6mm. As long as the chain does not hang loose or rub on the RD cage in the 34/11, then the chain length is OK.

There is one issue that has been overlooked. The upper pulley on your RD might not clear the 29T cog, if you go that route. Campy made a change to the "B" screw mechanism for 2010 that makes it possible to move the upper pulley further from the large cog. 2009 RDs can be retrofitted with the new part, 5-RD-SR004.

http://www.bikeman.com/DP9896.html

There is some chance that the pulley will clear, but only if your RD hanger is at the very maximum length shown in the Campy RD instructions.

[palincss]

A compact crank would require no change other than lowering the FD down about 6mm. As long as the chain does not hang loose or rub on the RD cage in the 34/11, then the chain length is OK.


There are some front derailleurs that won't work satisfactorily when you lower them down to compensate for the smaller big ring: the back end of the derailleur cage might hit the chainstay. I believe the Dura Ace front derailleur is known for having this problem where the 105 did not. There's also the matter of the curve of the outer plate not matching the new smaller size of the big ring, which would cause the back end of the derailleur cage to sit higher relative to the chain ring than it ought to do.

[Dave]

We are talking Campy here. Campy 11 to be specific. All Campy double FDs have been compatible with both compact and standard cranks since 2008.

[RPS]

Shimano front derailleurs have also been compatible between compact and standard for some time. As far back as my 2007 catalog Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105, and Tiagra front derauilleurs are listed for 50-56 tooth chainrings and with capacity up to 16T (to handle the 50-34 compact crankset). It's only when you go to triple that a different model is necessary.

I don't know how far back you'd have to go before a standard FD would not work with compact.

[Lovetoclimb]

Sounds like I may be able to slap a compact crankset on the bike and have my LBS do some fine tuning. Great discussion, I really appreciate the input.

[Ralph]

I don't know how many people need or want to use a triple, but the main complaint you hear about the triple is it's weight. When comparing against a compact. However, a triple offers better gearing I think.

I have two triple Campagnolo cranksets in my parts box....a recent Veloce and an older 8 speed Racing T. When comparing them to similar double cranks (Athena, Centaur, etc), I make the weight difference around 50 grams. That's not much. Riders shoes vary by more than that. So if you wish to use a triple, or need to use one on some rides, I don't see a weight problem.

The problem I do see is (perhaps) having the right side crank out more to the right if you use 111 symetrical BB like in Centaur and Veloce. Recent Record and Chorus triple used asymetrical 111 BB axles. I've never installed one but I assume that compensated for the side to side difference.

[jlwdm]

Competitive Cyclist shows the 12-29 Chorus 11 speed cassette in stock now.

Jeff

[palincss]

I don't know how many people need or want to use a triple, but the main complaint you hear about the triple is it's weight. When comparing against a compact. However, a triple offers better gearing I think.


I wonder: expressed in Power Bars, just how much difference is there in the weight of a triple vs a double? The granny ring is 1 Power Bar or less, I think (at least, the 24-26T grannies I use weigh virtually nothing). I imagine there are other "hidden costs" -- extra spindle length, some nuts and bolts, perhaps -- do they add up to another Power Bar? And would the sort of person who wants a triple actually notice 2 Power Bars more or less?

[Ralph]

As I said above....about 50 grams on a Campagnolo triple. I've weighed them. You're got the chainring....about 30 grams, 5 chainring bolts, and the bosses the bolts screw into. That's comparing a Centaur based triple to a Centaur or Veloce double. You can save about 15 grams by using an alloy bolt set....if it matters. Most can use the same 111 BB as the double with 32 or 28.6 MM seat tube.

Other brands may differ.

[endosch2]

You can special order the chorus 11s 12-29 from Wiggle for $111, shipping to the US included. Record is 220.

[salvatore]

Sweet... they're 25% off right now.

[Grant McLean]

And would the sort of person who wants a triple actually notice 2 Power Bars more or less?

they might not notice the weight, just the added Q factor.

-g

[palincss]

they might not notice the weight, just the added Q factor.

-g

Agreed, they might notice that. Or not. I switched my Kogswell from a Shimano 600 double to a triple when I retired and converted it from a commuter to a touring bike, and I never noticed the difference. I still have the crank, now in my 2nd Kogswell and I still don't notice the difference.

But then, I'm not one who needs low Q. I know, plenty do. And some need higher Q. It's definitely something to take into consideration, and for some might be a valid reason to avoid a triple.

[Ralph]

they might not notice the weight, just the added Q factor.

-g

Extra Q on just the drive side with Centaur based triples with symetrical 111 BB's. But Chorus and Record triples have asymetrical 111's. I've never mounted one of the Record/Chorus triples, but I assume they would be same both sides. My butt is slightly sensitive to one leg being out more than another, unless I lower the seat a tad.

[dmurphey]

I have a newly built IF frame with Campy Chorus equipment, with a compact double front and the 12-29 cassette. This just came to the US market in late Feb. It is not outrageously expensive. It is quite nice for those of us that use all of a triple on older bikes, but want more modern brifters and cranks. Try it you will like it.

[R2D2]

I ride the Blue Ridge and Skyline drive often. Climbs are not long and seldom hit 8 percent and are mostly between 4 and 6. I have a 50x34 with a 11x25 and never need the 25(or the 23). IMO a 50 x36 with a 11(12?) x25 will take even a semi fit cyclist up these grades with ease. I have needed the 34x25 on some of the roads around the Blue Ridge that have averages of 10 degrees and more. I am not a climber by any means however. My point being there is no need to go with extreme gearing for the Blue Ridge

You are correct about the Parkway and Skyline, There aren't many difficult climbs. But if you drop off either into a town below there will be some tough climbs to get back up there. Then the lower gearing would be helpful.

[BengeBoy]

Thoughts anyone?


If you're considering the SRAM XX stuff for a rando bike, another interesting new option will be the new Velo Orange compact double with 46-30 chainrings (see the Velo Orange blog; it's not out yet). Basically it's their version of a TA Cyclotouriste crankset at a much lower price.

Then you have your choice -- either a 10-speed setup in rear if you want a tighter range, or a 9-speed with a wide-range cassette.

The SRAM XX stuff is interesting, too, but super-spendy (I think the cassette is $375). SRAM has a lower-priced line coming out later this year...

[palincss]

If you want a 36T sprocket on your cassette and can live with only 9 speeds, Shimano's got a 12-36 they just released that (unlike the SRAM XX stuff) is actually reasonably priced ($60 at Harris Cycles).

[Charles M]

For 10 Speed, SRAM's new lower end APEX is 11-32...

The individual cogs are 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 25, 28, 32. Shimano’s biggest “road” cassette, a 12-27, progresses 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 24, 27. Put the SRAM 11-32 cassette together with a 34/50 compact crank and you get a 3.3 percent lower gear and a 9 percent higher gear for the wide range, compact double group when compared to a triple group based on a 12-27 cassette and 30/42/50 crank (the only ring configuration offered in with current 105 triple cranks).

Force and Apex both come at a pretty reasonanable price and have other ranges.

Recon make an 11-27 for Campy or Shimano and so do KCNC

For 11 SPEED cAMP,

OMNI RACER Have a Ti Ceramic 11-29
Token do 12-25 and 12-27 (and may have a 29)

[RPS]

For 10 Speed, SRAM's new lower end APEX is 11-32...

The individual cogs are 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 25, 28, 32. Shimano’s biggest “road” cassette, a 12-27, progresses 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 24, 27. Put the SRAM 11-32 cassette together with a 34/50 compact crank and you get a 3.3 percent lower gear and a 9 percent higher gear for the wide range, compact double group when compared to a triple group based on a 12-27 cassette and 30/42/50 crank (the only ring configuration offered in with current 105 triple cranks).

Force and Apex both come at a pretty reasonanable price and have other ranges.

Recon make an 11-27 for Campy or Shimano and so do KCNC

For 11 SPEED cAMP,

OMNI RACER Have a Ti Ceramic 11-29
Token do 12-25 and 12-27 (and may have a 29)
Pez, just for accuracy I think Shimano's biggest 10-speed road cassette is now the 11-28 offered in DA and Ultegra. I’m not sure if it has trickled down to 105 yet but should work with that also -- just more expensive.

I believe the 105 triple is 30-39-50. I originally resisted triples with 39 middle rings but now accept that it'd be better for me than a 42T. And with an 11T on back a 50T front should be plenty for me – and probably more useable overall.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=PezTech]For 10 Speed, SRAM's new lower end APEX is 11-32...

The individual cogs are 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 25, 28, 32. Shimano’s biggest “road” cassette, a 12-27, progresses 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 24, 27.


11-28, DA also.

[RPS]

11-28, DA also.
The 11-28 is presently available in Dura Ace and Ultegra, and will soon be available in the 105 trickle down 5700 group when released.

Shimano discussion seems off topic for this Campy thread so I’ll start a new one on the 5700.

[Charles M]

Yep, I grabed a quote Re the SRAM thing and forgot to update it for Shimano's new(ish ) ratio...

That said, I could have left it shorter and just included the 11-29 Omni for Campy but the thread already drifted.