OT-- Curling Technical Q's

[dogdriver]

O-Tay... Since none of you have assisted me in breaking my new found obsession with Olympic Curling ( I am firmly hooked, at least for a cupla' more days...), I have four questions:

First, can someone explain the netherworld of "weight"-- a standard pitch (or whatever its called), how much variation in effort is required for the stone to go short or long, and anything else that comes to mind on the subject.

Second, how much does "brooming" affect the distance and trajectory of the pitch--ie-- how far can brooming or not brooming make the stone move forward or sideways?

Third, how far can a "curl" curl? How much lateral movement is expected or possible by spinning the stone, and how much do you spin it to achieve a desired action?

Fourth, How much variation is there in ice conditions? Do you get practice throws before the match starts, or do you have to adapt as the match develops?

Inquiring minds want to know, Chris

[regularguy412]

O-Tay... Since none of you have assisted me in breaking my new found obsession with Olympic Curling ( I am firmly hooked, at least for a cupla' more days...), I have four questions:

First, can someone explain the netherworld of "weight"-- a standard pitch (or whatever its called), how much variation in effort is required for the stone to go short or long, and anything else that comes to mind on the subject.

Second, how much does "brooming" affect the distance and trajectory of the pitch--ie-- how far can brooming or not brooming make the stone move forward or sideways?

Third, how far can a "curl" curl? How much lateral movement is expected or possible by spinning the stone, and how much do you spin it to achieve a desired action?

Fourth, How much variation is there in ice conditions? Do you get practice throws before the match starts, or do you have to adapt as the match develops?

Inquiring minds want to know, Chris

I'm not a curler , nor do I play on on tv.

Here's the way I understand it:
Weight: over all, the speed of the shot as it goes down the ice.
Brooming: the 'pressure' of the scrubbing action, and where the action is placed relative to the motion of the rock makes the difference. Harder scrubbing makes the rock 'carry more weight', scrubbing more toward one side or the other helps the rock 'curl'.
The amount of 'curl': 'depends',, yeah, I know,, it's one of those things. more 'weight' tends to make the rock go straighter, over all, slower, tend to help the rock curl more. the ice itself has an effect, as does the amount of 'twist' the curler puts on the rock as it is released affects it too. so there's a lot of curling well comes from experience.
Ice conditions: can, and often do, change from practice until the match begins. being able to adapt is key.

OK. That's my take. Like you, I became hooked on curling. My fall, though, was during the Torino Olympics. It's like chess on ice. Takes skill, experience, concentration and tactics. Maybe some of our forumites with more info can 'weigh-in'.

Mike in AR :beer:

[Louis]

A completely serious question: how can this be considered a sport?

Next thing you know they'll be adding Pétanque / Boules / Bocce to the summer Olympics. Maybe when they get down to Washers or Jarts I'll finally be able to make the team...

[BdaGhisallo]

How can figure skating be considered a sport? Or ice dancing?

I have always thought of sport as having a simple definition: a sport is a game or or activity played in a competitive manner where the winner can be determined in a completely objective manner, with no subjective judging involved.

Quite a few Olympics "sports" don't meet my definition.


As for curling, from what I understand the rock will always have a natural tendency to curl due to the friction with the ice as it moves, and this movement is greater the slower the rock moves. Brooming the ice melts it a little and this allows the rock to maintain its speed, thereby reducing the curling tendency.

[Auk]

If you can be 5 months preggers and still compete at an Olympic level, it probably isnt a sport.

[fourflys]

good stuff here: Curling Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curling)

[TMB]

OK,

I'm going to preface this by saying, I am not the curler, my wife is ( and everyone in her family and everyone she ever knew before she met me, and everyone I've met since I met her ……………… you get the idea)

Weight - Curlers call weight based on the number of seconds it takes for the rock to get from hack to house - you will notice that the curlers either carry stopwatches or have them mounted on their brooms. Thrown weight has a tremendous impact on the rock, heavier weight means less curl.

You will notice that when they call normal weight the rock tends to "move" a lot on the ice while "peel" weight , the rock does not curl, it runs as straight as an arrow.

Sweeping / Brushing - two things are done by brushing, the ice is kept clean. You may not have seen it yet although I saw it a few times yesterday in the Canada v Great Britain game, if there is debris on the ice and it gets under the rock ( i.e. the rock "picks"), the rock will very suddenly change direction, or it will just "die". So sweeping keeps the ice clean. In the old days they used corn brooms and the brooms themselves left corn fibbers on the ice so there was a lot more crap for the rocks to pick.

The other thing that sweeping does is to build a surface in front of the rock, sweeping creates a "friction" on the ice surface that ever so temporarily "melts" the ice surface, or softens it and the rock tends to follow the softer smoother surface.

So sweeping CAN drastically affect the direction and speed oaf the rock.

Just as an aside on the sweeping - when they still used corn brooms, if a team had a solid front end ( the first and second), the rink would sound like a helicopter was in the building when the corn brooms got going. It was so loud you would not believe how loud it was.

Curl - Curl is affected by the "turn" - the curlers throw "in-turns" and "out-turns", and by the weight thrown out of the hack. Curl is also impacted by the ice ( see #4 below). Good curlers like you are seeing, can throw as much as 6 feet of curl. I am routinely seeing 4 foot moves in the games that have been on so far.

ICE - the big unknown. Ice is affected by so many things, certainly the building, and the outside weather have an impact. The ice-maker is the magical ingredient. Every curling club has a person who is the "ice-maker" and they are responsible for the ice. Every curling club has different ice. It is a black art and these guys do not talk about it, but you can see the differences in ice. When the provincial and national championships are on they bring in "ice-makers". There are few guys who have reputations that are known world-wide.

The curlers do get to throw some practice rocks before the game. However, the ice changes throughout the game, so the ice before the game is not the same as the 6th end ice. It changes because it is being run, and because the building is full of people and the building is getting warm. The ice softens or "flattens".

BEfore the game starts the ice will be "pebbled", the ice maker comes down the sheets with a back pack mounted water container and sprinkles water on the ice, the drops of water bead or "pebble" on the ice surface. The pebble is what allows the rock to skim the surface and to be manipulated by the curlers.

In most club and international play at the end of the 5th end, the ice makers "re-pebble" the ice. I have not seen them re-pebbling the ice in the Olympics and do not know if they are or not, but if not, this will have a HUGE impact as the the pre-game pebble will be worn flat by the 4th or 5th end. This will make the ice completely different.


I hope this answers some of the q's. The one thing I do know, this is a hugely difficult game to master. Anyone can play it, mastering it is a whole different world. Watching the good players play it is a joy.

Te other thing to be aware of, is that the rocks are all slightly different too. They are Solid granite, as much as they try to make them all the same, they aren't and the curlers know the rocks - you will sometimes see them changing rocks before a throw - they get to know the individual rocks.

It really is a great game. I wish I could play it.

[TMB]

One point for those who feel it is "cool" to hate curling.

It is the fastest growing sport in the winter Olympics - worldwide. Which means more TV viewers, which means better ratings, which means it is not going anywhere.

Also, I heard a fellow from NBC being interviewed on the Canadian broadcast here the other day. He said that they watch the number of eyes on TV screens during the games. This will surprise many of you but he said that apart from ice hockey which has the highest TV ratings, curling is next. He said that even in the US curling has higher ratings than ALL of the other events combined.

So it seems someone likes to watch it.


Now, in Canada, there is no question that hockey and curling will be two big ones.

One of the things that a sport should be, is accessible. Accessible to anyone who wants to do it. This is one of the reasons that curling as a sport is growing so much, like soccer, all you need to start curling is broom and a slider cover for your running shoes. So the cost of entry is almost nil. Compare that to cycling.

In Canada, I don't know about the US, but in Canada, every single little town and village, no matter how small, has a curling rink - in the centre of town, and it is the social centre for all of those tiny little places. People feel like they own a piece of the sport.

That makes it a sport. That and dedication, and immense skill.

[thegunner]

i'm perplexed by the intracacies of curling.

but i've fallen in love with it as a sport, so much that i almost got into a fight because someone questioned the legitimacy of such an activity in the olympics. i was drinking... but that's not as fun an explanation.

[dogdriver]

Thanks, TMB-- Reference your previous post, I was hoping you'd jump in... isn't everything more intricate than it seems on the surface?

[TMB]

Thanks, TMB-- Reference your previous post, I was hoping you'd jump in... isn't everything more intricate than it seems on the surface?


Usually, yup.


The one thing I have learned from my wife's family is that the game of curling certainly is.

[pbjbike]

If you can be 5 months preggers and still compete at an Olympic level, it probably isnt a sport.

Really! Here's just two examples of women who competed at an elite level while pregnant. Copied from this site: http://www.active.com/cycling/Articles/Cycling-During-Pregnancy_-Yes-or-No_.htm

[Many women have remained active right up to the day of delivery. Mary Jane Reoch, a world-class road racer who became pregnant at 35, pedaled from conception to delivery and raced a criterium during her fifth month. Although she was criticized for "hurting the baby," her doctors were supportive of her exercise program.

Mary Jane was active literally right up to the end: She actually rode her bike the 10 miles to the delivery room, where she gave birth to a healthy 7-pound, 12-ounce baby girl.

Blaine Bradley Limberg completed four triathlons, a biathlon, and a cross-country ski race before he was born. Blaine's mom, Barb, found out she was pregnant in the months just prior to the Hawaii Ironman World Championships, a race including a 2.4-mile swim, 112 miles of cycling, and 26.2 miles of running.

After consulting her team of health care providers—including midwives, an obstetrician-gynecologist, and others who had information about exercise and pregnancy—she decided to go ahead with training and the race. She completed the event when she was three and a half months pregnant.]

[Louis]

One point for those who feel it is "cool" to hate curling.
:
:
In Canada, I don't know about the US, but in Canada, every single little town and village, no matter how small, has a curling rink - in the centre of town, and it is the social centre for all of those tiny little places. People feel like they own a piece of the sport.

That makes it a sport. That and dedication, and immense skill.

I don't hate curling, I don't even dislike it, I just wonder if it rises to a level high enough to be considered an Olympic sport.

If we were to use your criteria then bowling and darts should also be Olympic sports. They seem to fit.

[TMB]

I don't hate curling, I don't even dislike it, I just wonder if it rises to a level high enough to be considered an Olympic sport.

If we were to use your criteria then bowling and darts should also be Olympic sports. They seem to fit.

I'm not sure how you can say " a level high enough to be an Olympic Sport"

Rythmic Gymanstics
Ice Dance
Half Pipe
Golf
Sailing
Tennis
Soccer
Badminton
Equestrian
Artistic Gymnastics
BMX
Table Tennis
Figure Skating


Yep, these events soar high ............

[BdaGhisallo]

I am with you on that list. There are a lot of sports that shouldn't be in the Olympics. The great problem is that the Games are about money now and not at all about sport, well maybe for the athletes they are.

The Games should be limited to traditional sports, what most folks would deem classic sports. All the clamour to get new sports into the Games sickens me a tad as it totally devalues the Games. Sports like golf, tennis, soccer, basketball and even road cycling (now that pros are allowed) have their own competitions that garner more prestige and fame than the Olympics deliver to them. I feel the list of sports should be limited to those for which the Games are and have been the pinnacle of their sports. So track cycling is definitely in, pro road cycling is not.

[TMB]

I am with you on that list. There are a lot of sports that shouldn't be in the Olympics. The great problem is that the Games are about money now and not at all about sport, well maybe for the athletes they are.

The Games should be limited to traditional sports, what most folks would deem classic sports. All the clamour to get new sports into the Games sickens me a tad as it totally devalues the Games. Sports like golf, tennis, soccer, basketball and even road cycling (now that pros are allowed) have their own competitions that garner more prestige and fame than the Olympics deliver to them. I feel the list of sports should be limited to those for which the Games are and have been the pinnacle of their sports. So track cycling is definitely in, pro road cycling is not.

That is the purist's view point, and I agree with it for the most part.

However, if they were limited to those sports I doubt there would be any Olympics at all. They are about money, TV revenue and therefore TV advertising, and money.

The sports that get into, and stay in the Olympics, are theones that people will watch on TV.

Ski Cross is on right now - WTH????

But it will get eyeballs on the TV screen. I would be happy if they just got rid of any sport that had an element of judging involved.

[Louis]

If I were KOTO (King of the Olympics)

Rythmic Gymanstics - Gone
Ice Dance - Gone
Half Pipe - I have no idea what this is, some sort of bong?
Golf - Gone
Sailing - Gone
Tennis - No question whatsoever that is is a worthy sport
Soccer - No question whatsoever that is is a worthy sport
Badminton - Gone
Equestrian - Gone
Artistic Gymnastics - Is this even an Olympic sport? Never heard of it.
BMX - Gone
Table Tennis - Gone
Figure Skating - Gone

To question tennis and soccer and imply that they do not "soar" is nuts.

[SEABREEZE]

Funny thing, I just mentioned to my wife the other day,if you are good sweapper, you can be on a Olympic team. Man is she a good sweapper

Seriously, I am sure it takes time to compete on a Olympic level... learning all the skills needed

[I Want Sachs?]

I think there are two issues I have with sports in Olympics.

One issue is whether the sport has a well defined winning that is not subjective. Track and fields, swimming, basketball, soccer, badminton, tennis, gold, curling, downhill skiing and cycling do. Examples of those that do not are ice dancing, synchronized swimming, diving, gymnastics, ski jumping, figure skating and halfpipe. I personally think having a subjective component in the judging makes it hard to be fair, and might give certain nations advantage. Therefore, if I was King of Olympics, I would keep only those that have objective outcome, and delete all those with subjective scores.

Second issue is whether the sport is a true athletic pursuit. This brings up the issue of whether the "x" is a game or a sport. Tennis, Ping-Pong, Badminton, squash, volleyball all require physical attributes and skills. Car racing, bowling, shooting, and golf are debatable for physical ability. Chess, shuffleboard, curling, Sudoku and Monopoly do not in my mind for physical attributes while they have lots of skills involved.

[Dekonick]

IMHO - I agree with the view the games should have classic games. There are other avenues for the rest - such as the X-games...

I don't doubt the athletic ability needed to perform in any of the sports... they just don't belong in the olympics.

[TMB]

IMHO - I agree with the view the games should have classic games. There are other avenues for the rest - such as the X-games...

I don't doubt the athletic ability needed to perform in any of the sports... they just don't belong in the olympics.


Again - being a purist is nice. But absent TV ratings, there are no Olympics.

And no one is going to pay billions of dollars for broadcast rights to Nordic Skiing.

[Louis]

absent TV ratings, there are no Olympics.

There wouldn't be Olympics as we know them (over-hyped, human interest story laden, flag waving, broadcasts) but there were be something. There is even a decent chance that an Olympic Games not designed around maximizing TV ratings would be superior to what we have now.

[rugbysecondrow]

Why hate on Curling? For most of us, we watch it once every four years and we really enjoy it. The Olympics, for me at least, is enjoying many of the sports that I would never see in between such as bobsled, luge, curling, biathlon, speed skating.

Just enjoy it for what it is or turn the channel.

[bironi]

TooMany,

Thanks for the education. I appreciate you passing on your understanding. I find the sport fascinating. I love the commentary of the Canadian with over 50 years experience. His coverage is so different than others I have seen at the current Olympics. I have only been watching the women's competition, but that is only because they were the first watched. The games are long, and I don't think I could watch both. I've been amazed to see so many young women (19 yrs old) playing leading roles on many teams. I especially liked the skip for Great Britain. She's 19, from Scottland (the home of curling), she plays bag pipe, and is a good golf player, and she could be Miss Scotland.

[thegunner]

If I were KOTO (King of the Olympics)

Rythmic Gymanstics - Gone
Ice Dance - Gone
Half Pipe - I have no idea what this is, some sort of bong?
Golf - Gone
Sailing - Gone
Tennis - No question whatsoever that is is a worthy sport
Soccer - No question whatsoever that is is a worthy sport
Badminton - Gone
Equestrian - Gone
Artistic Gymnastics - Is this even an Olympic sport? Never heard of it.
BMX - Gone
Table Tennis - Gone
Figure Skating - Gone

To question tennis and soccer and imply that they do not "soar" is nuts.

do you have any idea how difficult a cardiovascular sport badminton is when you're not playing against your grandmother and her friends?

[William]

For the Olympic Purists:

The original Olympics were of fundamental religious importance, featuring sporting events alongside ritual sacrifices honoring both Zeus (whose famous statue by Phidias stood in his temple at Olympia) and Pelops, divine hero and mythical king of Olympia. The Ancient Games featured running events, a pentathlon (consisting of a jumping event, discus and javelin throws, a foot race and wrestling), boxing, wrestling, and Chariot races.

So, for you “purists”, there should be nothing but running, jumping, spear throwing, boxing, wrestling, animal sacrifices, and Ben Hur chariot races. To make this more “Mo-dern”, we could refine this to the following:

1.) The 440 yard dash.
2.) Long jump.
3.) The javelin
4.) UFC Full-Contact fighting.
5.) Simulated animal sacrifice (under the supervision of PITA and the Humane Society).
6.) NASCAR

Even with those six events, I think NBC could still sell plenty of advertising slots. And, they would only need three announcers: Dwight Stones, Joe Rogan, and Richard Petty.



William ;)


PS: I dig Curling. I was watching the US vs. Denmark match last week and thoroughly enjoyed it.

[cassa]

One issue is whether the sport has a well defined winning that is not subjective.
I agree, but what to do about the fighting sports like boxing, judo, etc...? In one sense, they are objective (in judo, if you throw someone with force and control and they land in a certain way, you win), but there is interpretation by the judge(s) (just how forceful was that throw?). I think sports where opponents directly compete against each other instead of competing for subjective judges alone should be allowed -- this still rules out gymnastics, ice dancing, etc...

BTW, I really enjoyed watching the USA vs. Great Britain curling match yesterday, even if I didn't quite understand the strategy.

[William]

I agree, but what to do about the fighting sports like boxing, judo, etc...?



Never let it go to the judges....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8sapMW_W6ok/R0kJWog2udI/AAAAAAAAAIY/nC_dJfd36Cs/s320/gsp_hughes_2.gif



And now, back to your regularly scheduled program....

http://1heckofaguy.com/wp-content/photos/curling.gif




William :)

[dogdriver]

That looked like it really hurt (reference previous post). I'm going for a Pugsley ride...

In an unrelated event, my Canadian friend is so pissed off about the CAN-USA Hockey result last night that he has cancelled plans for a fishing trip with me in July. I suspect he'll come around, but the Olympics hit home...

[Louis]

do you have any idea how difficult a cardiovascular sport badminton is when you're not playing against your grandmother and her friends?

OK, let's set it up: Cage Match - you against Granny and her friends.

I don't like your odds. :p

[Ken Robb]

One of my pals has a couple of medals form the World Sailing Championships. He told me once that those are the medals that get the most respect from people who really understand because there you are competing against the best in the world regardless of nationality. At the Olympics a limited number of teams from all countries "compete" even though many have no chance at winning while many potentially competitive teams are left out because their countries have so many world class participants in their sport.

I am in no way knocking the Olympic system nor running down "Eddie the Eagle" or the Jamaican Bobsled Team. Until this fact was pointed out to me I thought an Olympic medal was the hardest to win and I'm sure a lot of the general populace thinks that way too.

[BdaGhisallo]

That's totally understandable. Afterall, I can't imagine any pro preferring to win the Olympic RR over winning the rainbow jersey in the Worlds RR.

[rustychisel]

and back to curling, which is almost exactly like lawn bowls (except for the ice thing, the broom thing, err and the stones). But apart from that, it's all about the 'weight' and the 'grass'

weight = speed of bowl
grass = angle to bowl at to get the right turn onto the target (kitty, or jack).

It's dead simple, just really really hard to put the two together with a dynamic surface. Lawn, like ice, changes radically during the course of a game. It can be rolled down, run its nap up during the afternoon, get heavier and less responsive through the afternoon, or quicken up alarmingly. Humidity plays a huge part, as of course do any winds, all of which need to be factored in.

[thegunner]

OK, let's set it up: Cage Match - you against Granny and her friends.

I don't like your odds. :p

am i playing badminton or fighting them? i think i have a pretty good chance either way :)

[Hardlyrob]

For the Olympic Purists:

The original Olympics were of fundamental religious importance, featuring sporting events alongside ritual sacrifices honoring both Zeus (whose famous statue by Phidias stood in his temple at Olympia) and Pelops, divine hero and mythical king of Olympia. The Ancient Games featured running events, a pentathlon (consisting of a jumping event, discus and javelin throws, a foot race and wrestling), boxing, wrestling, and Chariot races.

So, for you “purists”, there should be nothing but running, jumping, spear throwing, boxing, wrestling, animal sacrifices, and Ben Hur chariot races. To make this more “Mo-dern”, we could refine this to the following:

1.) The 440 yard dash.
2.) Long jump.
3.) The javelin
4.) UFC Full-Contact fighting.
5.) Simulated animal sacrifice (under the supervision of PITA and the Humane Society).
6.) NASCAR

Even with those six events, I think NBC could still sell plenty of advertising slots. And, they would only need three announcers: Dwight Stones, Joe Rogan, and Richard Petty.



William ;)


PS: I dig Curling. I was watching the US vs. Denmark match last week and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I couldn't agree more, William, with one Glaring error - Darrell Waltrip is so much better behind the mic than Richard Petty. What future Olympics wouldn't be complete without "Boogity Boogity Boogity - let's go RACIN' boys!!!" to start a serious international competition for athletic prowess and prestige?

Cheers!

Rob

[McQueen]

The thing that would make curling even more intriguing, is if we were more competent at it..

Don't know if this was already posted here..

In looking up what it takes to make the curling 'team'.. apparently, they qualify as a team (not just individuals) and the team that qualified for the USA is made of of guys from Duluth, MN, who apparently came in second place on their Tuesday night league in Duluth - which is pretty funny.

When you think of the level of competitor it would take to compete, say in Olympic Cycling, I think it would be pretty unlikely that a US Olympic Time Trialist would ever lose their local 10 mile tues night time trial, and more likely that the destruction of the rest of the field would be immense and total.

As I think it out, the fact that they compete on a local level, is indicitive of the low level of the sport - in other sports - olympians would destroy local competition, and would need much larger national/international competition to make it even interesting.

[deechee]

He loves swatting at the tv during those overhead shots of the curling rink.

[bzbvh5]

Get rid of:
Games of skill where VO2 max is not a consideration. Archery, shooting
Events where the average person consumes large amounts of alochol during participation. Curling (bowling on ice)
If the score is determined by a panel of judges. Too many to mention. And the Russian judge give it a 1.0.
Anything involving a horse or sail.


Why is ski jumping judged? How about the person that flys the farthest wins.

[merlinmurph]

... curling becomes interesting. :beer: The other night they had skirts on.

And am I the only guy out there who has developed a fondness for Cheryl Bernard, the Canadian skip?

I really need to go for a ride....

[fiamme red]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4353613691_5143b3b1fa_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4354359578_58795a52e7_o.jpg

[TMB]

Get rid of:
Games of skill where VO2 max is not a consideration. Archery, shooting
Events where the average person consumes large amounts of alochol during participation. Curling (bowling on ice)
If the score is determined by a panel of judges. Too many to mention. And the Russian judge give it a 1.0.
Anything involving a horse or sail.


Why is ski jumping judged? How about the person that flys the farthest wins.


Absolutely no idea what is actually involved in curling. But why bother be educated about it?

[TMB]

... curling becomes interesting. :beer: The other night they had skirts on.

And am I the only guy out there who has developed a fondness for Cheryl Bernard, the Canadian skip?

I really need to go for a ride....

BAsed on what I'm reading ......... no.

[fiamme red]

Get rid of:
Games of skill where VO2 max is not a consideration.Any non-endurance event? :rolleyes:

[climbgdh]

... curling becomes interesting. :beer: The other night they had skirts on.

And am I the only guy out there who has developed a fondness for Cheryl Bernard, the Canadian skip?

I really need to go for a ride....

No..... you are not the only guy that has developed a fondness for Cheryl Bernard. I think she is VERY attractive!!! :beer:

[kestrel]

... curling becomes interesting. :beer: The other night they had skirts on.

And am I the only guy out there who has developed a fondness for Cheryl Bernard, the Canadian skip?

I really need to go for a ride....

Here you go, second from left:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/serotta/cherylbernard.jpg

[William]

No..... you are not the only guy that has developed a fondness for Cheryl Bernard. I think she is VERY attractive!!! :beer:



Women of Curling....

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/hot_olympic_curler_girls#tab=most_recent







William