Time Cushion for Small Shop Custom Builder?

[Joellogicman]

Builder takes a deposit and promises fit/design consult by approximately day x.

How much wiggle room does (should) the industry standard allow the builder before it is fair to ask for deposit refund and go elsewhere?

Two months? Half year? A year or more?

No names. Just curious.

[Liberace]

I say 30-60 days as long as communication is good.

For a finished product I'd give 90-120days.

[Volant]

It all depends on you, the builder, communications and what you're looking for, but, I'll go (and have) up to 6 months beyond an "estimated delivery date".

[goonster]

As a rule of thumb, I've come to expect double the lead times originally quoted by a builder. Unfortunately, many builders overpromise and underperform in this area. Adjust expectations accordingly.

Builders who consistenly stick to quoted delivery times (such as Serotta and Dave Kirk), deserve special recognition.

[Liberace]

I think he is referring to a fit/design session rather than a finished product.

[markie]

There are stories of people having to wait years beyond their expected date.

I guess that is the joy of buying from a one man outfit. If the builder has a life changing event your frame might not be his first priority.

[goonster]

I think he is referring to a fit/design session rather than a finished product.
Fit/design typically occurs when the client's spot in the queue comes up. If that is delayed significantly, it does not bode well for the final delivery date.

[rwsaunders]

Time, quality and cost...most people understand that it's tough to have all three factors evenly weighted. However, in my business, if you promise a date and don't deliver, you end up in court.

[goonster]

if you promise a date and don't deliver, you end up in court.
Perhaps, but I know of no custom builder who promises a precise delivery date. Generally, they provide an estimate without guarantees. If the build start is delayed unreasonably, they should offer a full refund deposit.

Custom bikes are an atypical market in this regard, because most clients want a particular builder's work more than they want their money back.

[Joellogicman]

Time, quality and cost...most people understand that it's tough to have all three factors evenly weighted. However, in my business, if you promise a date and don't deliver, you end up in court.

But I understand bike builders are different and want to be fair. For instance in bankruptcy you can beat a preference action if you show a technically late payment nevertheless was made in a time frame the ordinary course of conduct in the industry would accept.

Getting a feeling for what that window might be in such a specialized trade is probably neither easy nor exact.

[veloduffer]

If it's just fit & design, it should be about 2-3 weeks at most.

As for the finished product, some times the delays are not of the builder's making. This particularly true about painting, where it is outsourced to another firm. Your built frame has to get into a queue with other builders' frames and customers' repaints.

The builder could have some supply issues with tubing, if it is a specific tubeset that is required.

Also, most builders are one man shops and so family issues also may come into play. For example, schools have been closed for a week due to snow in the VA/MD area. If the spouse also works (most likely as framebuilders are not rich), guess who has the kids for the week?

But, the builder has a responsibility to communicate with the customer and should inform them of any delays.

FWIW, I just got my Kish ti bike after 9 weeks, and that included Thanksgiving and Xmas holidays and delay at the painter.

[Joellogicman]

If it's just fit & design, it should be about 2-3 weeks at most.

Delay appears to relate to preparations for the upcoming trade show.

[StellaBlue]

Be patient, you will be happy in the end.

[Pete Serotta]

Let me suggest that the best time for this is close to when your frame build is coming within two weeks of material being ordered. Our preferences and "wants" change over time so it is best for all if this activity is done close to the build.

Most top notch builders have a minimum of 6 months (stated) wait time.... As someone else mentioned, the wait time is a best guess, and in my opinion is missed more than met. From personal experience, I have never had the date met for a frame. There are many reasons for this and it is just the mature of the business. (There are exceptions where the schedule is met, but they are rare and limited to very few builders).

As to getting your deposit back if the design is not done, the question becomes do you want the builder to build you a bike? If so then the wait is part of the process :D >

I have never heard of a deposit being returned for this reason....but it should be discussed with the specific builder. And keep in mind that even though the design is done, what is the delivery date? And how firm is it?

[AndrewS]

Just curious, does a deposit guarantee pricing as of the date of deposit? If not, what are you getting for your deposit?

[John M]

....what are you getting for your deposit?

Holding a spot in the queue. With some guy's queues longer than a year and with the fluctuation in materials costs/exchange rates, it is hard for a builder to necessarily guarantee a price that far in advance.

[Joellogicman]

Be patient, you will be happy in the end.

In my business, enough missed appointments mean a date with the disciplinary commission and can even rise to malpractice.

Per Pete's helpful post, there may actually be some method to the delay. The builder does not want to do a fit and design consult so far in advance of the build that changes force a second consult. That is pretty fair.

[goonster]

Just curious, does a deposit guarantee pricing as of the date of deposit? If not, what are you getting for your deposit?
Read the fine print. ;)

It depends. With most builders the deposit locks in final pricing for a basic frameset. Before he closed his order book entirely, Richard Sachs' wait had grown so long (5+ years) that he would not guarantee any pricing with a deposit, only a spot in the line. Also, many custom frames are designed with various options and finishes that carry an upcharge, so the final price can't be know until the bike is fully designed.

I've been doing business with a custom shop where all transactions are verbal or via informal email. The builder writes design specs on the side of a file folder. When the bike is built, he tallies everything up and arrives at a final price. When I take delivery, I bring a case of beer. It's not like buying a new car off a lot.

[Joellogicman]

Just curious, does a deposit guarantee pricing as of the date of deposit? If not, what are you getting for your deposit?

Place in line only. All prices subject to change without notice.

[mister]

i got my frame in the time the builder stated...he did state a period though. 8-12 weeks and it was almost 12 weeks.

after having the frame for a year now, i'll say that if the frame got delayed for some reason i wouldn't be mad. it's a frame i'm going to have for a long time.

[cmg]

overall took 6 months. from point of sending deposit to recieving frame. We didn't talk about the design until the week before he was to build it. My responses delayed him. a frame or two may have moved up while he was waiting for me to decide. but like several people said once i recieved the frame/fork that part of the transaction didn't matter. there was a reason you went to this builder if those still matter wait it out.

[Ahneida Ride]

6 months plus is not unusual.

Please realize this ..

a good builder leaves a part of his soul in the frame.

[Peter P.]

Builders usually like no lag time from order to order, so your fit/design consult is usually built into the regular order of business.

I have personally had TWO frames built within the last year. Both were up front that their lead times were, coincidentally, about 4 1/2 months. One had enough foresight to acknowledge he was in the midst of building frames for the upcoming cyclocross season, and expressed how this affected his current delivery. I consider that reasonable awareness and planning.

When each builder was roughly 2 weeks away from building my frame, they called/e-mailed and began the process of my fit/design. Both builders delivered within a week or two of their estimated time.

If you feel you're beyond a reasonable period of time when the builder expressed they would begin the fit/design process (I think 2 weeks is reasonable), then contact them and gently remind them of their quoted time and ask if there are any changes to that schedule. Here's where e-mail can be a godsend-if written properly, you can express yourself in a non-threatening manner, without sounding demanding or obnoxious.

I feel it's fair to give one free pass if the builder misses a schedule. But if the builder readjusts the timetable then MISSES the SECOND date for the process to begin, then I would be suspect. They are not just craftsmen but business people too, and have an obligation to meet SOME semblance of a delivery schedule.

I recall my friend waiting for a frame from a well-respected builder. The frame was past the delivery date and the builder was not answering e-mails in a timely fashion. Turns out the builder had a family member who was dying. These things can happen so it's always wise to be diplomatic in your approach.

[Brian Smith]

Timeliness of order completion is one criterion that you might inquire about when placing your order. Just like you wouldn't want to order a freestyle fixie frameset from Serotta, since it's not what they are known to do, perhaps a guaranteed on-time order is not what you want to ask for when a builder seems more concerned with, for example, one-off unique constructions or artistic paint rather than on-time performance. No single outfit is the best for everything. Asking for a refund is not out of the question, but my personal experience has been zero compliance in that regard, even if the person agrees during communications to refund my money. They performed lousy business, but I made incorrect choices in contracting them, in retrospect. This was all pre-bubble, but I think it's still applicable today.

[buck-50]

Mine was about 4 months late- but what are you gonna do? Besides, as anoying as it was for all the delays, in the end it was completely worth it.

My fitting was right on time, but not too long after that, my builder started having a ton of delays. Such is life, and such is the kind of thing you can expect when you're working with a younger builder with less scheduling experience.

[Charles M]

Builder takes a deposit and promises fit/design consult by approximately day x.

How much wiggle room does (should) the industry standard allow the builder before it is fair to ask for deposit refund and go elsewhere?

Two months? Half year? A year or more?

No names. Just curious.


For fit and design after taking your money?



Meet your commitments, small or large...

Maybe a reschedule or two(within a couple weeks total), but past that, I want my money.

[jblande]

I have to admit that in my limited experience, the deposit system is misleading. I have had experience with three custom situations. One was large, one medium size, one a single-man shop. In the case of the large company, everything came as promised and on time. In the other two instances, putting down the deposit meant that the story changed and communication became significantly more sporadic. It would well be it is worth it. On the other hand, I feel somewhat deceived. If the communication had been more honest from the get-go I might have made the same decision. Without a doubt, I would have been spared a decent amount of aggravation.

[Blue Jays]

If one needs a custom bike in time to use at a specific race or tour, the process will create disappointment.
The wait is all part of the fun, kind of like Christmas morning as a little kid.
My custom bikes have been satisfying beyond belief and it's far nicer to pay the deposit and then sit back to enjoy the anticipation.