Scion xB - non cycling [Archive]

Climb01742

03-09-2005, 09:04 AM

dave, haven't driven the toyota (it's the one that looks like a refrigerator box, right?) but along similiar lines, have you thought about a honda element? xB doesn't come with AWD, which is useful in montana, yes? :rolleyes: i'm considering the element--looks great for bikes, dogs and kids...plus you can just hose it clean inside...how cool is that?

Birddog

03-09-2005, 09:09 AM

Tell me it's not true, those things are fugly. How far apart (design wise) is a Terraplane and a Scion? Elements OTOH, have an understated utilitarian quality that I like.

Birddog

M_A_Martin

03-09-2005, 09:12 AM

Dave, I'm looking at those as well. I havent' driven one yet, I'm waiting for my knee to heal enough so I can run a clutch...I can drive a stick without the clutch...but it takes a bit to get that power shift just right and it drives the sales guys nuts.

For me it's coming down to the Honda Element (but that gets the same gas mileage as my truck) a scion XB, mazda 3 5-door, some sort of mini van... *sigh* or another ranger (actually, lots of room in the mazda3...)...I'd like to get something a bit more mobile and economical than my truck, but something my bike can ride inside of.

Passing the XB on the road is sort of like passing a little old economy car that can't get out of its own way...that could just be the driver, but they do seem to be a right lane car.

After sitting in the scion XB at the auto show it did get knocked down the list a bit...there isn't as much room in them as there looks like there might be, and for me it's all about getting the bike in the car. They do have lots of head room...There's maybe a foot behind the rear seats, and theoretically the rear seats don't come out (I know, I know...I used to write service manuals...All seats come out). I'd be worried that they're part of the structural frame of the XB....(no...really...). I was rather surprised at how much room the Mazda3 had in it...practically cavernous compared to the XB, the Element reminded me of sitting in the driver seat of a cube truck...My buddies who have the Element say they can fold up one seat and fit two bikes in upright (without the front wheel) without a problem.

Oh, gas mileage...the Mazda with a manual trans get 25/32... Not super fantastic, but better than the ranger or the element.
Yeah, I know...it's a mazda...but they've been getting better!

So those are my impressions so far. I'll be driving the above three in the next month. That doesn't help you now.

David Kirk

03-09-2005, 09:16 AM

Hey-

I have considered the Element. I liked the idea but the gas mileage is pretty poor and I have no need for 4 wheel drive. It does snow here of course but the driving is much, much easier than anything I encountered when living in the east. It snows, it stops snowing, the sun comes out, the roads clear and you're good to go.

I like the idea of a small car, that is actually light in weight ( I'm a Lotus guy after all), that will allow for bikes and snowboards to go inside so the Scion looks pretty good.

I kind of like the way it looks. Sort of like a modern enfo transit van. I think Karin would never get in a Transit van so this might be the next best thing.

Dave

Attached is a photo of the ol'enfo

Ian

03-09-2005, 09:32 AM

I drove an Xb a couple hundred highway miles and was favorably impressed with the drivability and comfort. Mileage on that trip was 35-ish, while cruising at 70-75. It's not particularly refined, but for a $14k appliance it gets the job done. Ugly? Yep, but who buys any Toyota for the looks?

Cranky

03-09-2005, 09:36 AM

Is it??

flydhest

03-09-2005, 09:37 AM

My oldest brother has a Toyota Matrix.

The Scion and Element have the easy access/exit thing going on, but relative to the other cars mentioned, the Matrix gets pretty good mileage, is small outside, but has tons of useable space inside.

Climb01742

03-09-2005, 09:43 AM

anyone know, besides the element, can any of these other small cars get two bikes inside standing up w/o their front wheels? that's my acid test

christian

03-09-2005, 09:46 AM

I think it looks like the modern Hillman (Imp) Husky Estate. In a nice way.

- Christian

Ken Robb

03-09-2005, 11:16 AM

my main concern would be that with its small high-revving engine the power might not be enough at high altitude.

Ozz

03-09-2005, 11:20 AM

anyone know, besides the element, can any of these other small cars get two bikes inside standing up w/o their front wheels? that's my acid test
this is why I am leaning towards an Element for my next car...I hope they put a hybrid engine into it in the next couple years to boost mileage.

I like the Matrix also, but the more powerful engine does not come with the AWD. Also, as stated above, the bike could not be secured standing up...

DfCas

03-09-2005, 12:52 PM

The Element that is.You can mop it and you don't need to remove the front wheel to put a road bike in it.My friend puts a 63cm bike in his standing up with the front wheel on.

I had a 5 sp 2 wheel drive that got 20city 25 highway,but got NO traction,even with winter tires on the front.I traded for an 05 Element All wheel drive 5 speed that gets 18-23.With the armrests out,you can put a tandem inside.

I think the Scion Xb is cool,but can you fit a large bike in it?The Element is like a luxury liner compared to the Scion.

dan

Bradford

03-09-2005, 12:58 PM

I didn't know you could fit a tandem in one. That might be enough for me to get an Element. :banana:

Climb01742

03-09-2005, 12:58 PM

BumbleBeeDave

03-09-2005, 01:03 PM

. . . A woman who leads group hikes here got a new Xb this past summer and she said she likes it very much. She said she did lots of research and was particularly impressed by the interior space and the "character" of the car. Here's a review I found . . .

http://www.easternecho.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?4332

Consumer Reports also gave it good marks for interior space and value, though road noise was a problem (what a surprise in a shoe box going 60 mph!)

Serotta Lori spoke highly of her element last year . . . I'm sure if you contacted her at her new shop she could give you some bike-hauling specific feedback. I have heard, though, that the element gets sh*tty gas mileage . . .

BBDave

DfCas

03-09-2005, 02:22 PM

dan, the one knock i've heard about the element is that its ride can be choppy. true? and how is it to drive for a trip, like a 2 or 3 hour drive? around town i can imagine it being great, but how about on the highway? thanks a lot for your answers.

The ride is firm as it is sprung quite stiffly.I run my tires kinda soft but I prefer firmness to body roll.Surprisingly,the seats are kinda hard but are quite good on long trips.The support seems to help with fatigue.It's not as good as the Volvo I had on trips,but not bad.

This 05 seems to be a little quieter than the 03,so I suspect they added some soundproofing this year.The 5 speed turns ~3500RPM at 70,but the engine is sewing machine smooth,so its not noisy.the automatics turn about ~3100 at 70.

The AWD is noticably less spirited than the 2 wheel drive,and the autumatic saps them further.

I usually keep the left seat up and thats where I carry piano actions(I am a piano technician) or a bicycle.You can put the right seat up but visibility is severely hampered and borders on unsafe.I prefer to remove the right seat if I have time.

There are several Element owner forums that I could refer you to if you want to know more.

dan

Climb01742

03-09-2005, 02:26 PM

There are several Element owner forums that I could refer you to if you want to know more.

dan, i'd appreciate that. gonna pull the trigger on something in april. it's down to the element or a 4runner. thanks alot for your first-hand info.

DfCas

03-09-2005, 02:33 PM

http://www.hondaelement.org/showthread.php?threadid=4772&highlight=tandem

Here are some pics from hondaelement.org.

He has both armrests and the rearseats removed.I have also seen a pic of a 250 offroad motorcycle in one,but I suspect is was quite a job to get it in there.

dan

DfCas

03-09-2005, 02:38 PM

www.elementownersclub.com

This one is more active lately.Lots of maniacal owners here.

Element sales have slowed a lot and Honda is offering low APR financing on them,and there may be dealer cash on leftover 04's that make them cheaper than 05's.

dan

JohnS

03-09-2005, 03:15 PM

MA- the Mazda 3 is the platform for the new Vovlo S40. if that helps you with the reliability issue.
Climb- my bro gets his 58mm Trek in his Subaru Outback with the front wheel off.

Climb01742

03-09-2005, 03:31 PM

john, is that on its side or standing up? i'd consider a forrester if a bike could stand up in it, so i could carry two without stacking them on their sides.

William

03-09-2005, 03:47 PM

One trick I used to do to stand my bikes up (front wheel removed) Jeep Cherokee Sport was to fold the back seat down And place a 2x4 that I had cut to fit the width of the interior. I bolted two fork mount clamps on the board spaced far enough apart to stand up two bikes. I then drove about 4 or 5 screws through the board so there was roughly about an 1/8 inch of the screw tips poking through the bottom of the board to grab the carpeting and prevent any movement. I still had to remove the seat posts...They're big bikes, most people wouldn't need to. I could have put a rack on top but I liked keeping them out of the Elements (snicker).
I think AR drove an Element?. It has more height then my Cherokee did.

William

Bradford

03-09-2005, 03:48 PM

I wouldn't have believed you could fit a tandem in an Element without seeing it for myself. Now I'm really interested in getting one.

Climb, I have and Outback and I don't think I could fit my 60x59 in it standing up. I'd go out and try but it's too damn cold to go outside again. It fits in easily on its side with no harm done to the bike, but if I'm taking more than one bike or any amount of luggage, it's on the roof.

I can fit the tandem in the back of the wagon, on it's side, with both wheels off, but it is a pain and leads to scratches in the paint. I now have a tandem rack so it rides on the roof.

Ozz

03-09-2005, 03:49 PM

dan, i'd appreciate that. gonna pull the trigger on something in april. it's down to the element or a 4runner. thanks alot for your first-hand info.

elements for the price of one 4runner! :)

eddief

03-09-2005, 04:00 PM

I hear they handle much better than they look and i think any of the available scion models with some pepper sprinkled on them would be too much fun. be the first in bozeman.

samcat

03-09-2005, 04:39 PM

Got the AWD (on demand) EX last year. No more racks for me. Bikes ride inside.

It carries two road bikes (fork mounts bolted into rear spare tire cover) w/no issues. Does 25+mpg on Hiway (in the right lane without too much headwind), less in regular traffic. Burns lots less than anything else that can haul two bikes standing up, inside.

Drove thru all kinds of muck all wintah...no probs. AWD really really works well. Also, Honda quality control is wonderful. Zero defects. 10K miles, one oil change (free). Maint. cost for 13K miles, thus far = zero..

Have taken two driving vacations w/the spouse and both of our bikes in the back. Easy. Lots of luggage, spares, tools, "flea market finds" room.

Most importantly...it only looks funny when looking from the outside in. From the inside looking out, it looks like a great decision on my part....

Terrific unit.

PH

Keith A

03-09-2005, 06:59 PM

Ginger, et al...

You might consider the new Mazda5 (http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=upcomingMazda5) It seems like a useful vehicle as well. Smaller than your typical mini-van, but can still haul six people and I understand that rear and middle seats fold flat. Here's a picture of it...
http://www.theautochannel.com/N/F/news/2004/08/25/212880.2-lg.jpg

spincoast

03-09-2005, 07:04 PM

Dave, I've driven an xb several miles. Some negatives are the lack of power. If thats important to you, it's not to us. It has 108 H.P. and is a bit slow off the line (she has an automatic). The ride can be a bit stiff but not enough to bother me. Interior noise is a little loud but again not too bothersome. For bigger/taller people the front of the cabin might be a little narrow on the legs. There are no armrests. The visors seem a little cheap and I'm not sure how long they'll last. It's a long reach down to the cup holders. There is no cruise control. I don't think it was an option, could be wrong about that.
On the other hand its a lot of fun to drive. It handles pretty well, that stiff ride equates to quick handling. The visibility is like nothing I've ever been in before; it's fantastic. The first tank of gas in the fall averaged 29 mpg, mostly around town. Its getting about 25 mpg now that it's winter but it idles in the driveway while warming up longer than it takes my girlfriend to drive the 3 miles to work. It's about the easiest car to park that I've been in. It makes a great city car. It has lots of headroom.
As far as fitting bikes inside upright, it looks kind of iffy, I haven't taken the time to figure it out yet. The rear seats fold down of course but they aren't removable.
Having said all those negatives, I love this little car and would probably buy one myself. I actually like the way they look. Consumer Reports for April 2005 speaks somewhat highly of them.

soulspinner

03-09-2005, 07:31 PM

I work for Toyota. For the cash the XB is great. The young ladies appraisal of the vehicle is pretty fair. In the context of the cost its a great buy and your title reads Toyota. I just pulled the trigger on a Tacoma(05) and the factory makes fork attatchments that fit into a groove in the composite bed . Im getting two as my cost is 30 bucks apiece. Consumer reports also says its the most reliable vehicle in their surveys.

Climb01742

03-09-2005, 07:50 PM

soul, what's your insider's view of the 4runner, particularly as a cyclist's vehicle? thx.

David Kirk

03-09-2005, 08:04 PM

Thank you all so much for all the info. I'll be driving up to Missoula (about 3hrs) as there isn't a Scion dealer here. We are just in the first stages of shopping at this point but it looks like a contender.

I'm not to worried about a firm ride. I either drive my Lotus ( pretty firm ) or my 1976 Mazda RX3. It's set up for autocross and it completely gutted. So it's really loud, very stiff, and so much fun to put a frame box in a rally to Fed Ex. The best $600 I've ever spent. I know you will all be offering me the big dollars for it but it's not for sale. Sorry.

I was also looking at a Mazda 3 speed but I think it's going to be a bit too much money for me.

If you have any more comments keep them coming.

Dave

Keith A

03-09-2005, 08:56 PM

How about the new Ford Freestyle (http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/freestyle/)? I don't know much about this one yet, but it looks promising as you can fold all of the seats flat, similar to the Toyota Matrix (and its Pontiac sister). It also has an AWD option.
http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/aic/ford_freestyle_limitedawd_2005_385x192.jpg

Climb01742

03-10-2005, 04:29 AM

to complicate things even further...nissan just redesigned their x-terra. get this...according to edmunds.com, it has 135 cubic feet of cargo storage. and rails in the floorbed like on a pick-up to help secure stuff like bikes. low to mid $20k. honda and toyota and subaru have better track records for reliability but from what i read, nissan is improving.

now i have to go test-drive some of these. :crap: is there anything worse than dealing with car dealers? i hate the experience. they're so slimey, ya need to take a shower afterwards. ;)

William

03-10-2005, 06:20 AM

While we're discussing vehicles here, anyone have any comments on the Volkswagen Eurovan? We already have a Volvo wagon, and my Intrepid has over 150K on it so I'm starting to consider replacement (or new edition). We have two kids but I'm not quite ready for the mini van. The Eurovan seems just different enough that I could live with it. Plus I like the weekender version with the pop-up table and pop-top roof for excursions to remote places and distant rides. Any owners/previous owners/people in the know here willing to share their thoughts?

I like the Scion but it just doesn't have enough room for us.

William

Keith A

03-10-2005, 06:51 AM

William,

I was in a similar situation several years ago when we were having our third child. I just didn't want to do the mini-van...so we looked for alternatives, but nothing was as practical as a mini-van. We ended purchasing a Nissan Quest and I couldn't be happier with our decision. They are great at hauling both people and cargo and get decent gas mileage. Some of the new offerings are much better at hauling cargo with both the Dodge and Honda having the ability to fold all of the passenger seats flat.

I've always been a fan of VW's and currently own two (GTi and Golf Sport). Although they aren't quite as reliable as some other cars and my GTi isn't the best hauling my bike and surfing gear -- it is just so much fun to drive. As for the EuroVan, it is not currently being offered in the US. It is available in Europe and has recently been restyled and upgraded, but there is no indication of when this will be available in the US. They also will be releasing the MicroBus in the near future.

Rich_W

03-10-2005, 06:58 AM

Attached is a photo of the ol'enfo

Wow Dave... without reading this entire thread... quite a little motorsport machine you have there. Looks very worked. Noticing the drivers seat, panasports, and what looks like AutoX rubber.

Love to hear more about this machine.

Climb01742

03-10-2005, 07:16 AM

They also will be releasing the MicroBus in the near future.

based on the concept vehicle of a few years ago, i'd buy one in a heartbeat. can you believe that VW decided to build the phaeton instead of the microbus? talk about misguided and not being true to who you are as a company.

and update on the xterra...i checked the nissan site and they list the cargo area as 65 cubic feet, not 135 as edmunds said. quite a difference; i wonder why?

Keith A

03-10-2005, 08:03 AM

Hey William -- check out this EuroVan (http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_1224.shtml), this thing will sleep four people!!!

Climb -- It looks like VW has shelved the Microbus (read the details (http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_816.shtml)). That is too bad as I would have seriously considered buying one. :crap:
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/uploads/microbus.jpg

soulspinner

03-10-2005, 08:21 AM

Climb
I absolutely love the 4 runner. Great capability to go anywhere. Only drawback is its a two step procedure to lower second row seats. Takes an extra second. Resale is fantastic if your situation changes or you are easily bored and turn over vehicles. Money no object I get a limited and a boxter s for the summer. Sorry it took so long to reply, home computer nf, awaiting the new Dell...

Miranda

03-10-2005, 08:25 AM

I work at a Toyota/Scion dealership and either our customers love or hate the Scion XB as far as styling. The XB came from Japan and was sold in CA for a year before going nationwide last June and have sold really well. It has the same engine the Toyota Echo has. Originally it is targeted to Gen "Y" buyers but we have had buyers of all ages purchase it because it is super reliable, well built and inexpensive to own besides it's unique looks and straight forward pricing with no negotiation.

Last season I drove the XB up to the Blaine, MN velodrome and many of the local riders swarmed around the car seeing all the room we can stow all of our gear. The XB and Element are unique vehicles each with their distinct advantages. The Element is not rated as high in gas mileage and is known to be slightly underpowered. With Scions there are all kinds of aftermarket choices available to either enhance performance/fuel economy or appearance.

Everyones needs are different but I will probably get a Toyota Matrix to haul all of my gear to the races.

David Kirk

03-10-2005, 08:33 AM

Hey Rich,

Thanks for asking.....I never miss an opportunity to talk about my Lotus.

It's a 1966 Lotus Cortina. It's one of 440 made that year. The Lotus Cortina was basically a hot rod version of the standard Ford Cortina. Ford sent Lotus Body shells and then Lotus propped them up on milk crates ( literally ), modified the body shells and installed Lotus running gear. It has the Lotus Twin cam 1.6L dual overhead cam motor, a close ratio gearbox, bigger brakes, and a much lower and stiffer suspension. The engine puts out 130hp and freely revs to 7000 rpm. At 1850 lbs it moves along pretty well. It's geared pretty low so the top end is limited to about 105mph but it is very stable and happy there. Where it really shines is on twisty canyon roads. I love having someone try to follow in their Civic with the huge fart pipe exhaust. Later!

The only real modification I've done was to add the race seat and 4 point belts. It's interesting to note that the car is at the stock ride hieght that Lotus built it at in 1966. Can you imagine how low that looked in 1966.

I've stopped autocrossing it due to it's rarity. If I were to slide it into a curb at 50mph I'd never forgive myself and it would be very hard to get some of the bits. I now autocross the Mazda ( flying eggplant ). I don't want to wreck it but if I do I won't lose much sleep.

Thanks for asking.

Dave

Keith A

03-10-2005, 09:01 AM

And there's always the new BMW 130i :D
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sixcms/media.php/23/02_450.78756.jpg

Roy E. Munson

03-10-2005, 09:18 AM

soulspinner

is the 4Runner only available in automatic this year?

soulspinner

03-10-2005, 09:22 AM

Auto only, the same 4.0 liter set up is available in the Tacoma double cab, however.

Roy E. Munson

03-10-2005, 09:32 AM

Auto only? Ok, scratch that truck off my list!

pjm

03-10-2005, 09:46 AM

And there's always the new BMW 130i
I'd love one, but of course BMW won't sell it here. :butt: I'm waiting to see the Audi A3 and the Golf V.

Keith A

03-10-2005, 10:01 AM

Here's some info on the new Golf Plus (http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_1091.shtml) which will be bigger than the standard Golf....and there is always the new GTi (http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_1025.shtml) and here (http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_984.shtml)
http://www.babez.de/vw/golfv_gti/newtitel.jpg

Ozz

03-10-2005, 10:43 AM

and update on the xterra...i checked the nissan site and they list the cargo area as 65 cubic feet, not 135 as edmunds said. quite a difference; i wonder why?

Back seats down vs. back seats up....

I like the look of the new Xterra, it is bigger than the old one...I have concerns over mileage however....I don't think we will see $30 a barrel oil anytime soon. There's a billion people in China, and another billion in India that all want to drive cars now that they have jobs.

Climb01742

03-10-2005, 11:00 AM

given how fast china's economy is growing, there are a number of economists who envision a time when america and china could go to war over oil. the answer? bikes for everyone! :rolleyes:

flydhest

03-10-2005, 11:08 AM

given how fast china's economy is growing, there are a number of economists who envision a time when america and china could go to war over oil. the answer? bikes for everyone! :rolleyes:

Climb,

Never, ever listen to an economist.

flydhest, your friendly neighborhood economist

zap

03-10-2005, 12:12 PM

Economists=Accountants

William

03-10-2005, 01:23 PM

Keith A, Thanks for the links! The Weekender is exactly what we were looking at. We decided to wait and haven't looked at them again for the last few years. To bad they quit shipping them over here. They were fairly popular back in Oregon. Rare to see one over here.
Too bad about the Microbus, I would have considered that as well. What the heck were they thinking? :confused:

Anyway, thanks!:cool:

William