Hed Wheels, Am I missing something?

[dumbod]

You guys have talked me into a set of Hed wheels. I was looking at the Bastogne wheels. The web site lists the weight as 1481gm but I'll need the stallion build (much better name than the fat boy build) which adds 100 grams. The MSRP is $850.

OTH, the Kermesse wheels have a maximum rider weight of 240, an MSRP of $750 and a listed weight of 1570. That seems to mean that if I buy the Bastognes, I can spend another $100 for wheels that weight 10 grams more. Are there any other differences that I'm missing?

[cmg]

Same C2 430gr rim on both of them, probably same hubs. the difference is in the number of spokes and the type of spokes. Bastogne uses bladed 20 front and 28 rear (no mention of straight or J-bend), Kermesse uses 24 2x front and 28 2x rear j- bend.

You can get a similar weight wheelset with lighter rims, less rotating weight at the rim.

[woolly]

Take a closer look at the pictures on their website - the hubs are clearly different. The Bastogne look like they use HED Sonic hubs with a regular flange on the rear drive side, and hidden spoke ends on the rear non-drive and both sides of the front. The Kermesse uses regular flanges & J-bend spokes for both sides, front & rear.

For me, I'd take the Kermesse with the more traditional hubs & pocket the $100.

Sonic hubs here: http://www.hedcycling.com/wheels/Hed_sonic_hubs.asp

And with all that said, if it were me laying out the cash - and it may very well be in the (hopefully) near future - I'd give Troy at Ligero a call. www.ligerowheels.com He's building wheels with a wider rim & his new hubset for similar coin - very nice.

[ahumblecycler]

I appear to be in the minority when it comes to wheel buying, as I prefer manufactured wheels.

I have nothing but good things to say about my Bastognes. But having read your hesitation, I would sya don't buy them. Why? Becaue you do not appear to be set on buying them and likely would be left wondering "what if" if you do.

When you find a set and you go, "I want to ride those" then I say buy them.

[echelon_john]

as far as i know there's no weight limit on the kermesse

[Bruce K]

PM me and we can talk more if you'd like.

I'd get the Bastognes. the hubs ARE nicer.

What is your riding weight? HED is a bit conservative with some of their weight limits at times. I have forgone the Stallion Build on a set of my road Bastognes and I ride at about 204# (for now). They are holding up fine.

That said, my 'cross wheels are both Stallions.

BK

[sokyroadie]

I know these are not the C2 rims but still a good deal, if you use the 20% discount (gold20) they are $384.00 for the set.

http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?id=93422&page=Hed+Bastogne+Road+Clincher+Wheelset

Unfortunately Shimano only :rolleyes:

I assume the listed weight 2061g is wrong.

Jeff

[Bruce K]

Way wrong.

Bastogne C2 weigh about 1480g for a set.

BK

[tim11]

Hey Bruce -- are the C2 rims really worth waiting for?

[LesMiner]

Hey Bruce -- are the C2 rims really worth waiting for?
C2 rims are about aerodynamics and not so much weight. HED's wind tunnel analysis says the bulge where the tire meets the rim produces a lot of drag.

[tim11]

So the difference in ride quality is just the marketing department at work?

[dave thompson]

So the difference in ride quality is just the marketing department at work?
Not at all. The wider rim is an aerodynamic feature but it also increases the volume of a given tire which: makes a wider contact patch, allows a reduction in tire pressure, makes the cross-section of the tire more round giving a more even transition from straight up to leaned over when cornering. The C2 rim on HED wheels does change the feel of a bike, for the better and IMO makes for very good handling. I did a short "rode report" on my C2 Bastognes here: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=63990&highlight=rode+report

[ahumblecycler]

My 2010 Bastognes just came and I cannot wait to ride them. I love my 2008s, and Hed's customer service is great!

[Dan Le foot]

My 2010 Bastognes just came and I cannot wait to ride them. I love my 2008s, and Hed's customer service is great!
Couldn't be better.
I just put a new set of Ardennes on today. Had a question on why the cassette wouldn't tighten. The Hed guy answered the phone on the 1st ring and got me squared away. (There was a 1mm washer that I left on the old freehub)
I did give him some shi* about not including rim tape on $1000 wheels. Hed guy took it well and promised to get it corrected in the future.
Far cry from the 15 minutes on hold with Easton yesterday.
Also hope the Heds holdup better than the two sets of Eastons high end wheels we bought last year.
Dan

[Dan Le foot]

Not at all. The wider rim is an aerodynamic feature but it also increases the volume of a given tire which: makes a wider contact patch, allows a reduction in tire pressure, makes the cross-section of the tire more round giving a more even transition from straight up to leaned over when cornering. The C2 rim on HED wheels does change the feel of a bike, for the bette and IMO makes for very good handling. I did a short "rode report" on my C2 Bastognes here: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=63990&highlight=rode+report
Hey Cabo Dave.
I just put a set of Ardennes on today.
I'm 180 lbs or so (with carbon leg).
What tire pressure for me?
Dan

[Louis]

Am I the only person on the planet still riding MA-40's and OP's ?

[thwart]

Yes. :D

[Louis]

Yes. :D

I'm even more special than I thought ;)

[Bruce K]

It looks like everybody beat me to answering about HED and the C2 rims but I'll add the one benefit that HED doesn't mention (we have a couple of times here) and that is longer tire life.

For some reason the new tire profile and reduced air pressure add up to less tire wear.

Somehow no rim tape doesn't bother me. I have switched to the plastic rim tape for most of my wheels. No more dealing with the Velox. It's heavy and if you need to get under it (for some wheels to tryue them) you generally are buying more.

BK

[cmg]

"HED's wind tunnel analysis says the bulge where the tire meets the rim produces a lot of drag." Seriously doubt the drag produced from the bulge of the tire meeting the rim couldn't be over come by a lighter rim.

[dekindy]

10 grams? :rolleyes:

[dekindy]

Am I the only person on the planet still riding MA-40's and OP's ?

Why don't you just drop a boat anchor behind the bike and drag it along? Seriously, this weight weenie thing is getting just a little silly when people are talking about ounces of weight differences for recreational riding. However since the OP is the only major rim that cannot be converted to road tubeless then it is off my list. But that would be the only reason.

[scpknees]

Id go with Neutrons. proven wheelset that has it all, comfort, durability,light,aero.
I suppose if your not using campy, much grief would come your way from everyone by mixing brands.

[ahumblecycler]

Dan Le foot - my wheels did not include rim tape either. To be honest, I do not mind because it provided me two opportunities. First, I got to pick the tape of my liking (not really a big deal to me, but some people [WWs] are particular about little details). Second, it is a few extra bucks I get to throw towards my LBS. Joe is awesome, and I always feel bad when I buy stuff on line at prices he has no chance of coming close to match. However, not once has he said or even hinted at anything bad when I do so.

Cheaper prices can never replace great customer service, whether it is a manufacture (love HED; hate FSA) and LBS.

Just my two euros (better exchange rate :p )

[dave thompson]

Hey Cabo Dave.
I just put a set of Ardennes on today.
I'm 180 lbs or so (with carbon leg).
What tire pressure for me?
Dan
Well, with that lightweight appendage (you should have it modified, more aero, go even faster y'know. :D ) I'd tell you to run about 85~90psi

[Dan Le foot]

Well, with that lightweight appendage (you should have it modified, more aero, go even faster y'know. :D ) I'd tell you to run about 85~90psi
Thanks Dave.
1st ride with them tomorrow. I'll try 90 and report back. Lotsa good reviews for Hed here.
I have a lighter cycling leg (sub 2 lbs) that the VA sprung for.
But my "go to" leg has a spring that loads on the downstroke and releases on the upstroke. :beer:
Dan

[Tobias]

Am I the only person on the planet still riding MA-40's and OP's ?
NO. It must be the engineer in you who is satisfied with any wheel as long as round and spins. :rolleyes:

[Tobias]

"HED's wind tunnel analysis says the bulge where the tire meets the rim produces a lot of drag." Seriously doubt the drag produced from the bulge of the tire meeting the rim couldn't be over come by a lighter rim.
Aerodynamic drag and weight influence bike performance so differently that to equate the two is almost impossible in a meaningful way. It can be done but many assumptions or conditions must be applied to the comparison for it to have significant meaning.

[xjoex]

Am I the only person on the planet still riding MA-40's and OP's ?

I'm with you, open pros are good for everything I do.

-Joe

[Tobias]

Not at all. The wider rim is an aerodynamic feature but it also increases the volume of a given tire which: makes a wider contact patch, allows a reduction in tire pressure, makes the cross-section of the tire more round giving a more even transition from straight up to leaned over when cornering.
Dave, I wasn’t going to ask but my curiosity is getting the better of me.

I follow what you are saying for the most part (although I don’t have strong opinions of whether much of it is right or not), but I’m confused by the comment about making the tire’s cross section more “round”. How does that happen? If I take a normal bike tire and bring the beads to a single point the cross section resembles a small round tube, not unlike a tubular.

On the other hand if the beads are opened wider and wider the cross sections starts to resemble a semi-circle initially, but if taken to an extreme the tire starts to look like a flat surface. For small rim width differences I expect it’s not all that important in either direction anyway, but I’m trying to understand the theory behind the claim.

Thanks in advance.

[dave thompson]

Dave, I wasn’t going to ask but my curiosity is getting the better of me.

I follow what you are saying for the most part (although I don’t have strong opinions of whether much of it is right or not), but I’m confused by the comment about making the tire’s cross section more “round”. How does that happen? If I take a normal bike tire and bring the beads to a single point the cross section resembles a small round tube, not unlike a tubular.

On the other hand if the beads are opened wider and wider the cross sections starts to resemble a semi-circle initially, but if taken to an extreme the tire starts to look like a flat surface. For small rim width differences I expect it’s not all that important in either direction anyway, but I’m trying to understand the theory behind the claim.

Thanks in advance.
Not my claim; HED's "By obsessing over design, and with the modern miracle of CAD, the C2 rim is 23mm wide, and only 430g. Finally a rim has caught up to the advances that clincher tires have made in the past 2 decades.

But what makes 23mm better than the ubiquitous 19mm rim? Width. Picture a standard 23mm tire on the C2 rim. Tire and rim width are the same, the sidewalls are fairly straight, and the width of the rim spreads the tread contact patch out. With straighter sidewalls, and more rubber on the road, cornering is an entirely new experience. The sidewalls don’t flop over in a hard corner, and more rubber on the road is, well... better. C2s should be run with lower pressure, since there is more air volume in the wider tire profile. The same tire on a 19mm rim looks more like the profile of a light bulb. The curved sidewalls flop over under hard cornering, there is less rubber on the road, and more air pressure is needed to prevent pinch flats."

My experience with my HED wheels has been pretty much what HED has said. I've found that they are different, due primarily to the rim width than other wheels I've had (American Classic 420, Mavic Kysrium, custom build using Velocity rims and a few others) and feel much better, more precise and nicer riding than any of the other wheels I've used. I like them well enough that I'm going to order a 2nd set of Bastognes for another bike that I have.

[RPS]

Not my claim; HED's "By obsessing over design, and with the modern miracle of CAD, the C2 rim is 23mm wide, and only 430g. Finally a rim has caught up to the advances that clincher tires have made in the past 2 decades.

But what makes 23mm better than the ubiquitous 19mm rim? Width. Picture a standard 23mm tire on the C2 rim. Tire and rim width are the same, the sidewalls are fairly straight, and the width of the rim spreads the tread contact patch out. With straighter sidewalls, and more rubber on the road, cornering is an entirely new experience. The sidewalls don’t flop over in a hard corner, and more rubber on the road is, well... better. C2s should be run with lower pressure, since there is more air volume in the wider tire profile. The same tire on a 19mm rim looks more like the profile of a light bulb. The curved sidewalls flop over under hard cornering, there is less rubber on the road, and more air pressure is needed to prevent pinch flats."

My experience with my HED wheels has been pretty much what HED has said. I've found that they are different, due primarily to the rim width than other wheels I've had (American Classic 420, Mavic Kysrium, custom build using Velocity rims and a few others) and feel much better, more precise and nicer riding than any of the other wheels I've used. I like them well enough that I'm going to order a 2nd set of Bastognes for another bike that I have.
I also don't read this to mean the cross section is more round. If anything it suggest the opposite to me since the sidewalls are more vertical.

Of course that probably also implies less cushioning (i.e. -- vertical give) so it makes sense air pressure should be run lower to avoid a harsher ride. BTW, having more air volume in the tire itself doesn't work as implied.

The closest I've come to wide rims for tires is running 1-inch tires (25.4 MM nominal) on 24 MM wide rims and it does work well.

[cmg]

Velocity has the A23 rim http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=34855 that you could build a set from, comes in 28, 32 drillings, doesn't mention rim weight but it's from the Aerohead profile so it's probably close to it weight. nice to know there's always options, don't have to buy manufactuered wheelsets.

[Steve-O]

Velocity has the A23 rim http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=34855 that you could build a set from, comes in 28, 32 drillings, doesn't mention rim weight but it's from the Aerohead profile so it's probably close to it weight. nice to know there's always options, don't have to buy manufactuered wheelsets.


I would be curious if anyone has tried these out. I am looking at this rim with some Dura-Ace hubs for decent training wheels.

[dave thompson]

I also don't read this to mean the cross section is more round. If anything it suggest the opposite to me since the sidewalls are more vertical.

Of course that probably also implies less cushioning (i.e. -- vertical give) so it makes sense air pressure should be run lower to avoid a harsher ride. BTW, having more air volume in the tire itself doesn't work as implied.

The closest I've come to wide rims for tires is running 1-inch tires (25.4 MM nominal) on 24 MM wide rims and it does work well.
OK, maybe I'm not the best at technical writing so let me see if I can 'splain it. I have two bikes hanging from my wall rack, one with HED C2 wheels and one with Open Pro rims. Both have tires mounted that are 700x25. When I look at the tire on the 'normal' rim head-on, its shaped more elliptical like a light bulb and the sidewalls are pinched in. It measures an actual 25MM wide. The same tire on the C2 rim has a more 'round', as opposed to elliptical shape across the contact patch. It measures 28MM wide.

I really don't understand the reticence to give HED some credit for making a wheel that does what they say it does and the questioning of what HED owners have said, including me, that the wheels do what we say they do. All of what I've said has been based on direct and measurable observation, not claims by the manufacturer.

[BCS]

I would be curious if anyone has tried these out. I am looking at this rim with some Dura-Ace hubs for decent training wheels.
I just ordered a rear wheel A23/DT240/ dt comp spokes 3x. Claimed rim weight is 426g. This will be paired with my Dynohub wheel that is built around the standard Aerohead rim. I will provide feedback if possible.

[Dan Le foot]

OK, maybe I'm not the best at technical writing so let me see if I can 'splain it. I have two bikes hanging from my wall rack, one with HED C2 wheels and one with Open Pro rims. Both have tires mounted that are 700x25. When I look at the tire on the 'normal' rim head-on, its shaped more elliptical like a light bulb and the sidewalls are pinched in. It measures an actual 25MM wide. The same tire on the C2 rim has a more 'round', as opposed to elliptical shape across the contact patch. It measures 28MM wide.

I really don't understand the reticence to give HED some credit for making a wheel that does what they say it does and the questioning of what HED owners have said, including me, that the wheels do what we say they do. All of what I've said has been based on direct and measurable observation, not claims by the manufacturer.
Hi Dave.
Just got back from my 1st ride on the Ardennes. (not sure how they differ from the Bastones) But every thing you said I found to be true. Simply the most comfortable wheel I have ridden. Hard to tell if they are any faster since I used them on a heavier back up bike. (Legend/F1/Ultegra)
The newest weight listed on the HED web site is 1480 grams. I found this to be accurate. (But heavier than originally listed)
The wheels on my lighter, primary bike (Time/Durace) are the Easton EA90 SLX that are about 100 grams lighter. I'm thinking about moving the Hed wheels over but I suffer from a small case of weight weenieism when it comes to rotating weight. I'm a climber. Not a good one so I need every advantage.
You have an opinion?
Dan

[Bruce K]

Dan;

If climbing is your issue (and I don't climb as well as I'd like either) I can say that I rode my Bastognes (slightly heavier than Ardennes) with a Power Tap rear hub in last summer's Copper Triangle Alpine Classic (80 miles and about 6000 feet of climbing) without any issues.

The smalll amounts of weight you are talking about (for me) are more than made up for in ride quality and handling.

BK

[Dan Le foot]

Dan;

If climbing is your issue (and I don't climb as well as I'd like either) I can say that I rode my Bastognes (slightly heavier than Ardennes) with a Power Tap rear hub in last summer's Copper Triangle Alpine Classic (80 miles and about 6000 feet of climbing) without any issues.

The smalll amounts of weight you are talking about (for me) are more than made up for in ride quality and handling.

BK
Thanks Bruce.
We love that part of Colorado. We missed the Copper Triangle ride by one week last year (traveling in a motorhome)but did the passes out of Leadville. The ride up the Vail Pass from Breck on the dedicated bike trail is one of my all time favorites. Also bagged three 14ers while we were there.
I'm going to move the HEDs over for a trial run. At my age comfort is becoming more important anyway.
Dan

[RPS]

Velocity has the A23 rim http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=34855 that you could build a set from, comes in 28, 32 drillings, doesn't mention rim weight but it's from the Aerohead profile so it's probably close to it weight. nice to know there's always options, don't have to buy manufactuered wheelsets.
You can get a lot of information directly from the Velocity web site, although I can’t seem to locate the A23 there. Maybe they haven’t updated their page in a while.

Velocity appears to have many rim models with similar profiles, some just a little bigger than others. And in some case they appear to be the same but with different names for ATB versus road use. The Dyad and Aeroheat look the same to me.

Also the same rim I have that was called the MTB Deep V now goes by a different name. That one is 24 MM wide but deeper section – and much heavier.

[RPS]

I really don't understand the reticence to give HED some credit for making a wheel that does what they say it does and the questioning of what HED owners have said, including me, that the wheels do what we say they do. All of what I've said has been based on direct and measurable observation, not claims by the manufacturer.
I don't know what you think I or others are questioning but think you are taking this personal as if we are trying to discredit you. That’s not the case at all from my perspective.

Regarding the issue of giving HED credit for design and/or use of wider rims I think there can be reasonable and understandable disagreement in that area. Wide rims have been around since for ever. If there is something I don’t get is why all of a sudden they are taking credit for this. I’m honestly confused.

Sorry if my post seemed like it attacked you personally, that was not the intent at all. And I don't see any other posts doing it either.

[Bruce K]

RPS;

I am not taking the comments personally but I am not sure what some of the resistance is to acknowledge what is being said.

While wide rims may have been around for a while, I don't believe they were particularly popular and I am personally not sure what the intended purpose was.

Steve Hed did research and engineering to determine what he believes is an optimal dimension to provide specific advantages to road cycling. Those would be improved aerodynamics and improved handling.

These wheels also provide an added benefit in cyclocross in that lower pressures and the rounder profile provide a ride more like tubulars with less risk of pinch flats.

Mr. Hed is an aknowledge expert in cycling aero.

I think all we're saying is give the guy credit for the work he did and give the company credit for their customer service and support.

BK

[Louis]

I'm all for guys explaining why they like this or that wheelset. We have lots of posters with tons of experience and I've learned a huge percentage of my thimble-sized cycling know-how on these very pages.

My problem is that so often it's a "flavor of the month" deal. Brand / model X is hot today. Wait six months and it's brand / model Y. If someone were to perform some sort of blind taste test and a number of different users were to consistently identify a given set of characteristics with a given wheel / tire combination then I would be more willing to buy it. Otherwise, it's Coke vs Pepsi.

In a related aside, I don't think any of the long-time posters here, several of whom I consider friends, would do anything as dirty as company-sponsored viral marketing, but I'm sure there are a few folks out there who are paid to "spread the word" on teh internets.

Louis

[Tobias]

OK, maybe I'm not the best at technical writing so let me see if I can 'splain it. I have two bikes hanging from my wall rack, one with HED C2 wheels and one with Open Pro rims. Both have tires mounted that are 700x25. When I look at the tire on the 'normal' rim head-on, its shaped more elliptical like a light bulb and the sidewalls are pinched in. It measures an actual 25MM wide. The same tire on the C2 rim has a more 'round', as opposed to elliptical shape across the contact patch. It measures 28MM wide.

I really don't understand the reticence to give HED some credit for making a wheel that does what they say it does and the questioning of what HED owners have said, including me, that the wheels do what we say they do. All of what I've said has been based on direct and measurable observation, not claims by the manufacturer.
This covers my question better than your reply to me above. If I understand you correctly, you are saying the tire tread area is more round, not the entire tire cross section as I thought you were saying before.

To be honest what I think may be happening is that the tire tread is curved at a much higher radius, hence acting like a fatter tire where it contacts the road.

On the other hand what your answer to RPS puts into question is the aerodynamic benefit. In your case you have a 28 MM tire on a 23 MM rim, which leaves a combined 5 MM overhaning the rim. If I ride a standard 23 MM tire on a 19 MM rim, the combined overhang is only 4 MM.

I don't see how this makes for better aerodynamics. Maybe if using a 23 MM tire on a 23 MM rim, but what you describe is hard to follow.

No disrespect meant. Asking about your bikes and experiences is to support the learning process, although it doesn't mean I will necessarily get or agree with everything you write. :beer:

[Rueda Tropical]

Wide rims have been around for ever but for quite a while only heavier rims for the touring utility market have been available. Race rims were not available in wide widths. I think HED is taking credit for changing that. Whether they were the first I don't know. We are seeing quite a few wider lightweight rims now.

[dave thompson]

This covers my question better than your reply to me above. If I understand you correctly, you are saying the tire tread area is more round, not the entire tire cross section as I thought you were saying before.

To be honest what I think may be happening is that the tire tread is curved at a much higher radius, hence acting like a fatter tire where it contacts the road.

On the other hand what your answer to RPS puts into question is the aerodynamic benefit. In your case you have a 28 MM tire on a 23 MM rim, which leaves a combined 5 MM overhaning the rim. If I ride a standard 23 MM tire on a 19 MM rim, the combined overhang is only 4 MM.

I don't see how this makes for better aerodynamics. Maybe if using a 23 MM tire on a 23 MM rim, but what you describe is hard to follow.

No disrespect meant. Asking about your bikes and experiences is to support the learning process, although it doesn't mean I will necessarily get or agree with everything you write. :beer:
Aerodynamics I know from squat. I have the least reason for needing something aero of anyone I know. High speed, except for downhill, is not my friend. I use large tires, I like large tires. The C2 rims increase the width of my large tires, which on my butt-0-meter makes the bike feel more secure and sure-footed. Someone that does care about aero stuff would of course use a narrower tire to start with.

That said, talk to Steve Hed or read what the HED website say about aero. It's got all kinds of nifty charts and big words to explain it all.

[RPS]

Do any of you guys remember running 18 or 20 mm racing high-pressure tires on "standard-width" rims? Most of the time we could install them without touching the brakes because the side walls barely stuck past the braking surface.

In my opinion it's not that the "aerodynamic" concept has changed as much as our preference to ride wider tires has now made wider rims more important. And that's not a bad thing at all, but doesn't seem all that new either.

[LesMiner]

In my opinion it's not that the "aerodynamic" concept has changed as much as our preference to ride wider tires has now made wider rims more important. And that's not a bad thing at all, but doesn't seem all that new either.

Maybe its another aging market thing. Taller head tubes because more bicycle buyers are older and can't get down into the aero tuck position. Wider rims for wider tires to accomdate more weight.

[Bruce K]

Except that recent tire tests have shown that keeping a tire in contact with the road is faster than bouncing off it as high pressure narrow tires tend to do. So this profile is supposed to actually reduce rolling resistance while enhancing cornering.

I believe Leonard Zinn aggressed this a while back in his Velonews column.

And just to be clear... I am a HUGE fan of HED wheels (if it wasn't clear in the signature) and the company. I have no professional connection to HED and I am not a "paid endorser".

I just like companies that mean what they say, do what they say, and make a good product. Kind of like Serotta. :D

BK

[RPS]

Except that recent tire tests have shown that keeping a tire in contact with the road is faster than bouncing off it as high pressure narrow tires tend to do.
A lot of data supports that rough roads increase rolling resistance, but that applies to all tires. The case of a tire coming off the pavement is an extreme condition which then adds more losses due to slip.

We should be aware that conclusions are often extrapolated (most people call it spin) to make a biased point. Most of the time for most riders there is a middle ground (i.e. – rough roads without much bouncing off the pavement) – it’s just rough. This common middle ground would affect all tires in a similar manner by increasing rolling resistance significantly.

Unfortunately data from the extreme case is then used to suggest that fatter lower-pressure tires are always faster than skinnier higher-pressure tires in most if not all rough-road conditions. Data that isolates that I have yet to see.

[Ray]

We should be aware that conclusions are often extrapolated (most people call it spin) to make a biased point.
Pun intended? :cool:

-Ray