Rivendell nonsense.

[AndrewS]

I remember reading and liking the old Bridgestone catalogs. There was a lot of sense in those designs.

Lately I've read most of the Rivendell site, and I must say I'm pretty unimpressed. I think that Bridgestone sensibility has gone by the wayside in favor of some sort of false antiquarian style and or just contrariness. One can almost feel inadequate reading the Rivendell site when you notice that your own handlebars are lower than your saddle or that you've fallen for that "toe clip/clipless" scam instead of BMX pedals and Crocs.

The last time I rode a bike with even 28c tires it felt like a mountain bike, but here's a modest proposal for all:

Instead of creating custom $1000+ frames for the purpose of accommodating $40 fenders and $60 worth of fat tires, why not come up with:

1. A pinch flat resistant lower pressure 28c clincher tire/tube combo.
2. A fender system that goes OVER the brake calipers so standard short reach brakes aren't an issue.
3. An attractive and adjustable higher rise stem so a 16" head tube isn't necessary for people who want to sit up.

I realize these things are impossible under the laws of physics, but I can dream. (That or they're all available right now.)


Or maybe I'm just missing how chic it is to have a road bike so heavy it's hard to lift onto a roof rack or out of trunk? But I really fail to see why an 18 lbs. road bike can't effectively be accessorized to do what Rivendell is promoting for $150 and 19 lbs total.

Okay, rant's over. Everyone can go back inside.

[Ray]

Here's a thought - don't buy one.

Riv gets dumped on for going in a different direction that seems to threaten a lot of folks. What's the point - just don't buy one.

-Ray

[paczki]

I enjoyed the rant :banana: :banana: :banana:
Remember, there's always a rant in Grant!

[SamIAm]

I like the Riv vibe and think Grant designs great riding, sensible bikes, but I would also like to see:

1.) More of their bikes built with proper metal fenders.

2.) Somebody to convince Grant that its enough already with the silly names, I mean really, that is just being contrary and stubborn in my opinion. IT picture him like an aging Howard Hughes. If he is serious about these names then he's losing it, if he is being contrary and stubborn, well that's not good business.

[Ti Designs]

As anyone who's worked in a bike shop for a few years knows, Rivendell is worth a good rant now and then. Rivendell customers are different, I would go so far as to say they're special. The Rivendell customer (cue mood music) lives in a perfect cycling world where time stands still as they bask in the wonder of that perfect machine. The bike industry on the other hand (cue loud static) is made up of companies that either go under or can't deliver product as expected. These two often come together at the counter of a bike shop, and it's not pretty.

Years back two friends entered the bike shop looking for bikes. The in-house frame builder sold one of them a custom and equipped it with Dura-Ace parts. before long he was on the bike and loving it. The other guy had this mental image of the perfect bike, and he went about trying to aquire it. I remember this clearly because he came to the parts counter on a busy Saturday asking for a 27 tooth cog for his freewheel. That was then, this is now, we have ebay now...

[Peter P.]

Grant has gone all Colonel Kurtz on us.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/gawfer2001/64816-Col-Kurtz-0.jpg

[sspielman]

What you say makes sense if you consider Rivendell a bike company....but they are not...It is a weird cult religion....They ought to be thankful that Janet Reno didn't firebomb the headquarters....

[Ray]

As anyone who's worked in a bike shop for a few years knows, Rivendell is worth a good rant now and then. Rivendell customers are different, I would go so far as to say they're special. The Rivendell customer (cue mood music) lives in a perfect cycling world where time stands still as they bask in the wonder of that perfect machine.
Maybe those were just the folks who were SOOOOO enamored of their Riv-ness that they felt the need to announce it to everyone. You probably had a bunch of Riv riders who just came in for parts or clothes or advice and you never knew WHAT bike they rode?

To each their own. I've owned Rivs and liked them - at the moment my only Riv product is a Bleriot townie. I've owned all sorts of bikes I've like more and less. But I don't see anything more absurd about buying a 22 pound bike for $3000 that may be useful for a variety of purposes than buying a 14 pound bike for $10,000 and up that only does one thing well. I would never trash the maker of that $10,000 bike just because I wouldn't buy one. Lots of people own 'em and love 'em for all sorts of reasons, from reality based to pure fantasy. To each their own, silly names, silly marketing, and all.

Grant has put a lot of ideas in my head over the years. Some have been very useful to me long term. Others, I tried and dismissed. Others I dismissed without even trying. Those that have stayed with me and been useful long term have been more than worth the price of admission, which was basically the low cost of an annual membership and a stack of Riv Readers.

FWIW, when I used to hang out on the IBOB list, I'd get similarly irritated with folks who went out of their way to trash Serotta or other makers of "modern" bikes. There are a lot of great bikes out there that can be ridden any number of ways for any number of reasons. I just don't get the exclusivity...

-Ray

[bluesea]

I joined Rivendell (before the internet) after seeing a small ad in the back of a bicycle mag. Grant was running the operation out of his home, (probably the garage), and I have had the chance to speak with him numerous times on the phone. At that time a large part of his sales included a wonderful varying selection of NOS bicycle parts, of which I was lucky to order more than my fill.

Times have changed, and his attitude has taken on a major phoniness in maintaining the "Rivendell persona". I still like Rivendell and wish they offered their frames in closer size ranges, but the overused commercially oriented term r*tro gr**ch no longer exists in my vocabulary. :D

[BCS]

I remember reading and liking the old Bridgestone catalogs. There was a lot of sense in those designs.

Lately I've read most of the Rivendell site, and I must say I'm pretty unimpressed. I think that Bridgestone sensibility has gone by the wayside in favor of some sort of false antiquarian style and or just contrariness. One can almost feel inadequate reading the Rivendell site when you notice that your own handlebars are lower than your saddle or that you've fallen for that "toe clip/clipless" scam instead of BMX pedals and Crocs.

The last time I rode a bike with even 28c tires it felt like a mountain bike, but here's a modest proposal for all:

Instead of creating custom $1000+ frames for the purpose of accommodating $40 fenders and $60 worth of fat tires, why not come up with:

1. A pinch flat resistant lower pressure 28c clincher tire/tube combo.
2. A fender system that goes OVER the brake calipers so standard short reach brakes aren't an issue.
3. An attractive and adjustable higher rise stem so a 16" head tube isn't necessary for people who want to sit up.

I realize these things are impossible under the laws of physics, but I can dream. (That or they're all available right now.)


Or maybe I'm just missing how chic it is to have a road bike so heavy it's hard to lift onto a roof rack or out of trunk? But I really fail to see why an 18 lbs. road bike can't effectively be accessorized to do what Rivendell is promoting for $150 and 19 lbs total.

Okay, rant's over. Everyone can go back inside.
To add to the list of grievances:

The lack of smaller frames (54ish) able to accomodate 700c wheels. Nothing against 650B as I have never tried them. However, having already invested enough in 700c wheels, tires, SON dynamo, etc, I did not want the extra expense.

[Charles M]

I like em for the bikes and for the community and dont like the pure bull****...

There are lots of great steel guys including the people Rivendell frames from.

I won't buy from someone who trash talks other materials...

[Birddog]

.It is a weird cult religion....They ought to be thankful that Janet Reno didn't firebomb the headquarters....
POD I almost blew my coffee. OTOH, if it weren't for Grant and Riv, I wouldn't have had the laugh.

Birddog

[oldpotatoe]

Here's a thought - don't buy one.

Riv gets dumped on for going in a different direction that seems to threaten a lot of folks. What's the point - just don't buy one.

-Ray

Hear, hear! If the website grinds on you, don't go there. There are a few billion others about bikes.

[palincss]

Here's a thought - don't buy one.

Riv gets dumped on for going in a different direction that seems to threaten a lot of folks. What's the point - just don't buy one.

-Ray

Well said, Brother Ray. My thoughts exactly.

[oldpotatoe]

I like em for the bikes and for the community and dont like the pure bull****...

There are lots of great steel guys including the people Rivendell frames from.

I won't buy from someone who trash talks other materials...

I guess you won't buy from a bike shop that continually slams steel as a material then, like a couple do around here. 'Soft, boat anchor, rusts, gets vague over time'...all which is utter crappola, so they can sell ya their latest trekspecializedgiantfeltetc plastic wonder.

[Joellogicman]

Or maybe I'm just missing how chic it is to have a road bike so heavy it's hard to lift onto a roof rack or out of trunk? But I really fail to see why an 18 lbs. road bike can't effectively be accessorized to do what Rivendell is promoting for $150 and 19 lbs total.

Okay, rant's over. Everyone can go back inside.

People, I am one of them BTW, who ride bikes as their primary transportation have come to find bikes with wide tires, fenders, headlights and are equipped with pedals that accommodate normal shoes are more comfortable and useful for how we ride. We don't worry all that much about putting our bikes on roof racks or in trunks because we have neither.

If your primary bike experience is as a recreational toy, then weight concerns, narrow tires, and wacky shoes and clothes make some sense.

Not unlike the build requirements for a Mazda Miata being different from that of a 4 door sedan or mini-van.

It really is not that difficult a concept to grasp. Why Rivendell engenders such anger among some in the sport bike set is simply bizarre.

(I do not own a Riv, by the way - all my bikes are custom)

[rockdude]

If you happen to get a custom one built by Mark Nobilette, you are getting one fine crafted bike.

[Joellogicman]

To add to the list of grievances:

The lack of smaller frames (54ish) able to accomodate 700c wheels. Nothing against 650B as I have never tried them. However, having already invested enough in 700c wheels, tires, SON dynamo, etc, I did not want the extra expense.

If Riv were really just about marketing, you would expect 700c on smaller frames as more people prefer buying bikes with larger tires.

GP believes a good bike should have a certain geometry. He cannot get that geometry on small bikes with 700c wheels. You may not want the product, but I think it is good he is consistent.

[BCS]

Logicman:
I am calling BS. I HAVE the product. A 2006 56cm Rambouillet which actually used 700c as did the 54. IIRC, prior models, long since retired were also 700c in all but the tiniest frames. So I am not fully convinced about your statement about GP choosing wheel size based on geometry. I just believe he wanted to promote the 650b concept. Period. I have enjoyed riding the frame for commuting, brevets, etc but it is not without faults. As stated prior threads, I do not think it is acceptable to have to use zip ties or P-clamps to secure racks to a bike. No real thought was put in to fender mounting. Not a concern if all your frames are custom.

[Joellogicman]

Logicman:
I am calling BS. I HAVE the product. A 2006 56cm Rambouillet which actually used 700c as did the 54. IIRC, prior models, long since retired were also 700c in all but the tiniest frames. So I am not fully convinced about your statement about GP choosing wheel size based on geometry. I just believe he wanted to promote the 650b concept. Period. I have enjoyed riding the frame for commuting, brevets, etc but it is not without faults. As stated prior threads, I do not think it is acceptable to have to use zip ties or P-clamps to secure racks to a bike. No real thought was put in to fender mounting. Not a concern if all your frames are custom.

The Atlantis came with 26 on smaller sizes. As the Rambouillet is discontinued in favor of the Hilsen which is 700 for larger and 650b for smaller, one can just as soon argue that GP adopted the format as soon as it made sense.

I bought a Hilsen for my nephew. It has double eyelets in the back for rack and fender mounting, and mid fork and drop out eyelets up front. Sounds as though the Rambouillet was just not designed for your preferred use.

[goonster]

1. A pinch flat resistant lower pressure 28c clincher tire/tube combo.
2. A fender system that goes OVER the brake calipers so standard short reach brakes aren't an issue.
3. An attractive and adjustable higher rise stem so a 16" head tube isn't necessary for people who want to sit up.
1. Panaracer Pasela. If you pinch-flat it you either need to raise pressure, or you're too heavy, or you need a wider tire (like the Jack Brown), or you need stop riding into curbs. The only tube that is pinch-flat proof is filled with sand.
2. Riv has shown several times, in the Reader, how to do with his standard SKS fenders or the SKS raceblades. If you have ever tried to do it, you would know it works like **** because the fender needs to follow the contour of the tire closely to do what it is supposed to do, otherwise the sludge will spray all over the place.
3. That's like asking for a mumu that makes folks weighing 500 lbs. attractive to the general populace. It so happens that a long headtube is the best way to achieve that position. The stem you describe would need to be carved from unicorn ivory.

Sorry if this sounds harsh. There is good reason behind most (but not all) of the gear Riv sells. Admittedly, their catalog looks a bit weird because seek out niches not served by other vendors. There are many ideas that Riv (re)introduced, that were initially met with derision, but have since gained widespread acceptance in the biz.

I picture him like an aging Howard Hughes.
He's not. (Not that I ever met HH ;) ) Why not go talk to him?

I do not think it is acceptable to have to use zip ties or P-clamps to secure racks to a bike. No real thought was put in to fender mounting. Not a concern if all your frames are custom.
Please tell us about a production frame from the era of the Rambouillet (2001-2006), other than bikes designed for loaded touring, that did this better at a similar pricepoint.

[veloduffer]

I think Grant is just being a contrarian against the marketing hype that pervades most of the bicycle business. Look at some of the advertisements:

Ride Blue - pic of carbon bike with the tag line "As fast as you want to be."
Specialized - pic of Fabian Cancellera on a time trial bike.

Grant is trying to appeal to folks who bike more as a lifestyle than just exercise. Folks who commute and camp/recreation, etc. Folks who are all shapes and sizes. He promotes his bikes as a useful and good-looking tool - if you had only one bike, why not make it do many things and look nice at the same time. Plus, he knows that the engine is the rider, not the bike - which is what the opposite of most bike ads.

He can be over-the-top about steel but it's good to have a devil's advocate in any discussion.

And btw, at least he does some writing instead of one-liners. He puts a bit more thought into it.
:beer:

[false_Aest]

1. A pinch flat resistant lower pressure 28c clincher tire/tube combo.
2. A fender system that goes OVER the brake calipers so standard short reach brakes aren't an issue.
3. An attractive and adjustable higher rise stem so a 16" head tube isn't necessary for people who want to sit up.

I realize these things are impossible under the laws of physics, but I can dream. (That or they're all available right now.)


Look no further.

1) Ben is in Central America right now harvesting natural rubber to make solid tyres.

2) When he gets back he'll be working with a secret section of Rohloff AG (rumored to be called Roll-Over) to make a front and rear coaster brake fitted with carbon stop-gü based on the technology seen in Top Gear.

3) Look no further than the adjustable stems that came with the Giant TCR circa 1998-99.

[xjoex]

They make neat bikes, sure they are not race bikes but he knows his audience. I like the idea he pushes of Sub 24 Hour Overnight trips.

Horses for courses right?

-Joe

[Ken Robb]

My Rambouillet and Allrounder both have eyelets for racks and/or fenders. Heck, so does my 1989 MB-3.

One of the real advantages of riding a heavy Rivendell for me: riders on race bikes pass me and say/think "gee that old guy isn't as slow as you'd expect riding a truck like that in his jeans". When I ride a LOOK, Legend or some other race bike the same riders pass me and say/think "jeez that old guy is so slow even that fast bike and Lycra :) :beer: :banana: can't help him".

I prefer to project the first image.

[BCS]

At the time of purchase, the Saluki and Bleriot were only the other options--both 650b. Most people who bought Rambouillets likely used them for the same applications that I did and cope with the shortcomings.

The Hilsen is clearly an improvement in terms of braze-ons but this brings me back to the original point. Build a non-custom 700c bike in multiple sizes (4 total sizes for the Sam Hillborne) with appropriate braze-ons for randonneurs, commuters, etc. The guys at Boulder Bicycle/Rene Herse seem to have figured it out. I am really trying to like Rivendell because despite the GP nonsense, we need more companies like his.

[fiamme red]

Build a non-custom 700c bike in multiple sizes (4 total sizes for the Sam Hillborne) with appropriate braze-ons for randonneurs, commuters, etc. The guys at Boulder Bicycle/Rene Herse seem to have figured it out. I am really trying to like Rivendell because despite the GP nonsense, we need more companies like his.I've long thought that Rivendell should tap into the fast-growing randonneur market. Instead Grant invents new categories like "country bike."

I have to say that my Romulus, which I bought complete (minus saddle and pedals) from Rivendell for $1,400, was one of the best deals I ever got in my life.

[Joellogicman]

Sorry if this sounds harsh. There is good reason behind most (but not all) of the gear Riv sells. Admittedly, their catalog looks a bit weird because seek out niches not served by other vendors. There are many ideas that Riv (re)introduced, that were initially met with derision, but have since gained widespread acceptance in the biz.

Riv is not looking for the race/recreational dollar. It sells to a sub group of the bike lifestyle crowd. If you see a bike as only a device for achieving speed and fitness, most everything Riv sells is not for you.


Please tell us about a production frame from the era of the Rambouillet (2001-2006), other than bikes designed for loaded touring, that did this better at a similar pricepoint.

Some bikes marketed for touring even now miss the mark. The practical value of many braze ons seems very obvious. For a long time, it was overlooked by almost everyone however. Some of this was probably a result of the many with a recreational mind set pushing back against designs that deviated from what they felt is the norm.

[palincss]

Please tell us about a production frame from the era of the Rambouillet (2001-2006), other than bikes designed for loaded touring, that did this better at a similar pricepoint.

Exactly. The Rambouillet was not designed as a touring frame, and in Riv Reader and the various supplements I recall Grant agonizing over whether to put rear rack mounts on the frame at all because that would encourage carrying heavy loads, and the frame was not intended for a load of more than 20 lb. We've argued about the load carrying capacity of the Rambouillet on the lists more than once; the frame's of stouter stuff than almost all touring frames made in the 1970s. However, in Grant's eyes it was not intended for loaded touring, hence the lack of fittings to support it.

As for fender mounting, I agree that some Rivendell designs are not as well thought out with respect to fender placement as they could be, and I abhor the whole idea of mounting them with zip ties. sc53 had to use almost the full length of a wine cork as a chainstay bridge spacer on her Atlantis to get a good fender line. It's possible to do a lot better: the Kogswell P/R easily gets a perfect fender line, as do the Velo Orange offerings. However, where Rivendell is located, fenders are a seasonal thing, rather than an all-year-long proposition.

What's more, Rivendell is hardly the only company to have frames with less than perfectly placed fender mounts. At least, the frames are all designed with adequate clearance to accommodate fenders and reasonably sized tires, which is more than you can say for the vast majority of road frames being produced today.

But if somebody doesn't like what Rivendell produces, they should look elsewhere, rather than taking up a crusade against the company.

[BCS]

My Rambouillet and Allrounder both have eyelets for racks and tires. Heck, so does my 1989 MB-3.


the Ram, or at least mine, has single eyelets at the dropouts, not double. No mid-fork braze-on for front rack. If you want fenders + rear rack, need P-clamps.

I am not aware of better (non-fully loaded touring) options during the Ram era 2001-6. But how hard would it have been to put an extra eyelet on the rear dropout or a mid fork braze on.

[Joellogicman]

The guys at Boulder Bicycle/Rene Herse seem to have figured it out. I am really trying to like Rivendell because despite the GP nonsense, we need more companies like his.

Rene Herse have a 3 year wait and sell for nearly 5k. From the website, most buyers are hoping to compete in distance races.

Agree Boulder are a decent deal for a U.S. made tig-weld. But Riv is lugged steel.

In my opinion, the odd bike out at Riv is the Roadeo. The other Riv bikes are not designed for a specific recreational purpose. Rather they are designed for people who use their bikes for transportation, hauling things, and for recreation.

I think it is a good niche and would hate to see Riv fall into a recreational only mode.

[Joellogicman]

the Ram, or at least mine, has single eyelets at the dropouts, not double. No mid-fork braze-on for front rack. If you want fenders + rear rack, need P-clamps.

I am not aware of better (non-fully loaded touring) options during the Ram era 2001-6. But how hard would it have been to put an extra eyelet on the rear dropout or a mid fork braze on.

But it was not the mindset in the U.S. at the time.

[fiamme red]

As for fender mounting, I agree that some Rivendell designs are not as well thought out with respect to fender placement as they could be, and I abhor the whole idea of mounting them with zip ties. sc53 had to use almost the full length of a wine cork as a chainstay bridge spacer on her Atlantis to get a good fender line. It's possible to do a lot better: the Kogswell P/R easily gets a perfect fender line, as do the Velo Orange offerings.The fender line on my Romulus is my only real complaint about the bike. With Pasela 28C tires and 35mm Honjos, there's virtually no clearance between the tire and fender under the rear brake bridge.

I also wish there were eyelets for a rear rack.

[BCS]

I've long thought that Rivendell should tap into the fast-growing randonneur market. Instead Grant invents new categories like "country bike."

I have to say that my Romulus, which I bought complete (minus saddle and pedals) from Rivendell for $1,400, was one of the best deals I ever got in my life.
The Romulus was a great deal and I wished I had bought a used Canti-Rom that I saw on CL recently. Your point about the Randonneur market is correct. RUSA has almost doubled its membership in the past 4 years. Randonneurs appreciate well made, practical, comfortable bicycles. We don't need overbuilt tanks like the atlantis. The Ram or Romulus is a good Rando bike and could be even better with minimal design changes from GP but he apparently is more interested in other things

[buck-50]

Here's what's great about rivendell- They make bikes that no one else makes today.

I don't race and I don't even really ride that fast. I mostly ride alone, never in a pack, never drafting, just riding.

I like my fat tires. I gots a bike with 25s and it's great (a serotta, even) but it's not a whole lot of fun to commute on. And most of my riding right now is commuting.

I bought a rivendell out of desperation a couple years ago. I weighed about 260 and I couldn't get comfortable on a bike anymore. Every shop I went to wanted me to try a more expensive, racier carbon bike- "the carbon will make it ride smoother!" I ended up with an insanely nice bike that I just couldn't ride. Because carbon doesn't make up for the fact that you can't ride in a racing crouch when you're 60 pounds overweight- yer diaphragm compresses, yer knees bounce off yer gut, it just sucks.

So, I read a couple Riv Readers, saw what they were proposing and bought a used Riv. At that point it was a hail mary pass- I was starting to thing that I just wasn't going to be able to ride anymore, that I'd gotten too old (at 34).

Got the riv and suddenly, I could ride again. The higher handlebars made me comfortable again. The wide tires sucked up all sorts of road buzz and didn't flat as often (again, you try riding on 23s when you weigh 260).

And even better, I started to lose weight. I lost a lot of weight. I had I bike that I could ride anywhere, any time. And I did. I started riding to work, to the store, wherever. Rain didn't really slow me down (fenders are nice).

In fact, I lost so much weight (65 pounds) that I could actually ride that really nice carbon everything bike again. But honestly, I didn't care for it all that much. Too many bad memories, too narrowly focused.

Since then, I've fallen out of love with rivendell a couple times. They make stupid mistakes, just like any other company and their glassy eyed fanboys are annoying beyond words. Sold my Riv and replaced it with a custom frame.

But, Rivendell did something for me that I can't thank them enough for- they got me to stop looking at my bike as a focused thing that exists solely to give me faster times on my favorite training (for what?) route. They got me to see that a well designed bike can be fast and comfortable, and that a bike can be both beautiful and utilitarian. Folks like me who don't race still want nice bikes, you know? But we want nice bikes that are designed for what we do. And there isn't a whole lot of that in the rest of the biking industry.

So, if you don't like them, ignore them.But there may come a time in your life when they make sense.

[BCS]

But it was not the mindset in the U.S. at the time.
Rivendell was selling bags for rear racks in the US at the time.

[Ken Robb]

the Ram, or at least mine, has single eyelets at the dropouts, not double. No mid-fork braze-on for front rack. If you want fenders + rear rack, need P-clamps.

I am not aware of better (non-fully loaded touring) options during the Ram era 2001-6. But how hard would it have been to put an extra eyelet on the rear dropout or a mid fork braze on.

As Steve said: it wasn't meant to be a full-on tourer. I've still got the old literature where Grant describes it as appropriate for credit card touring with reasonable loads in large saddlebags. Speaking for myself I would not have wanted to mess up the looks with a mid-fork braze-on for loaded touring that I never planned to do. I must be more "Gucci" than I thought. :rolleyes:

I had a small Nitto rack on the back of my Allrounder to support my huge Hoss saddlebag. I removed the rack when I installed fenders because the fenders alone support the bag well enough. I cut a piece of light plastic honeycomb to fit the bottom of the bag to stiffen it.

[goonster]

Most people who bought Rambouillets likely used them for the same applications that I did and cope with the shortcomings.
They seem like shortcomings now, but when the Rambouillet came out it was the only production road bike built for standard-reach brakes. You can add a rack with p-clamps, but you can't use extra hardware to add clearance.

I was in the market for exactly such a bike, and didn't see the lack of rack mounts as a drawback, because I used Carradice saddlebags for loads up to ca. 30 lbs. on brevets (and still do).

I've long thought that Rivendell should tap into the fast-growing randonneur market.
Lots of randonneurs ride Rivs. Almost every Riv production model (except for the mixtes) has completed PBP.

[sc53]

If you can't stand the Riv names and rants, shop Velo-Orange! Normal, functional names for really cool gear for Riv-style bikes. I have an Atlantis, two Serottas (Ottrott and CSI) and hope to have a VO Randonneur by this spring. I enjoy all kinds of bikes!

[Joellogicman]

Rivendell was selling bags for rear racks in the US at the time.

Which they were selling as a full on tourer.

[roguedog]

Ok.. I don't usually butt into this always heated topic... but..

I agree w/ Ray and others, if you don't like it, stop torturing yourself.

For me, I'm glad there's a Riv. They fill a nice niche - nicely built all rounder type of bikes that are practically indestructible. You can do just bout anything on my Atlantis except race. I love that versatility and ... I just kinda swoon at lugs :rolleyes:

I don't really read his newsletter but I do like the parts he offers on his site which I go to fairly often. He offers parts I can't find in most local shops. And I like supporting small (local, for me) businesses.

I dunno, if I'm building a race oriented (read: non-riv type), I wouldn't go there because it's not his thing. Just like I wouldn't go to a roadie shop if I were shopping for mtn bike parts.

My 2 cents...

[Joellogicman]

As Steve said: it wasn't meant to be a full-on tourer. I've still got the old literature where Grant describes it as appropriate for credit card touring with reasonable loads in large saddlebags. Speaking for myself I would not have wanted to mess up the looks with a mid-fork braze-on for loaded touring that I never planned to do. I must be more "Gucci" than I thought. :rolleyes:

I am in line for a custom designed for a large saddle bag with a front rack that mounts to the Mafac brake braze ons. No unslightly eyelets on the wonderful Campy 1010 dropouts I am providing the builder.

[BCS]

As Steve said: it wasn't meant to be a full-on tourer. I've still got the old literature where Grant describes it as appropriate for credit card touring with reasonable loads in large saddlebags.
Agreed, it is not a loaded touring bike. I use a carradice bagman support and can run fenders. Can't use a handlebar bag like a Berthoud that requires a front rack for support.

[BCS]

Which they were selling as a full on tourer.
Incorrect. The Big Loafer/ Little loafer are hardly bags designed for loaded touring.

[fiamme red]

Lots of randonneurs ride Rivs. Almost every Riv production model (except for the mixtes) has completed PBP.I know, but I meant a front-loading bike, something like a 700C Boulder Bicycle with lugs.

[goonster]

Incorrect. The Big Loafer/ Little loafer are hardly bags designed for loaded touring.
Not incorrect. Before the tweed bags there were the Pa panniers and the Adam/Hoss trunks. Riv did indeed promote the Atlantis for loaded touring, but of course their idea of loaded touring includes cinching stuff sacks to a Nitto rack with straps and twine.

[gemship]

I like Rivendell bikes because they look pretty and I bet they are quite good at touring or cruising with comfort and any other long,short ride experience. I rode my mountain bike once to a shop about 50 miles from home just to check out the place. They had a half dozen Rivendells some were built up and some were just frames,all with prices. The shop also carried the Surly brand. Nothing against Rivendell but I'm all about the value and having said that, I left that shop thinking the Long Haul Trucker was the bike for me.

since then I have noticed a few guys on Long Haul Truckers and for a touring bike they can really move.

[Joellogicman]

Incorrect. The Big Loafer/ Little loafer are hardly bags designed for loaded touring.

I have seen pictures of Atlantises with panniers on the side and loafers on the top. Maybe not what a hard corp tourer would use (certainly I would not) but then GP is a proponent of the short tour.

[ti_boi]

Here's what's great about rivendell- They make bikes that no one else makes today.

I don't race and I don't even really ride that fast. I mostly ride alone, never in a pack, never drafting, just riding.

I like my fat tires. I gots a bike with 25s and it's great (a serotta, even) but it's not a whole lot of fun to commute on. And most of my riding right now is commuting.

I bought a rivendell out of desperation a couple years ago. I weighed about 260 and I couldn't get comfortable on a bike anymore. Every shop I went to wanted me to try a more expensive, racier carbon bike- "the carbon will make it ride smoother!" I ended up with an insanely nice bike that I just couldn't ride. Because carbon doesn't make up for the fact that you can't ride in a racing crouch when you're 60 pounds overweight- yer diaphragm compresses, yer knees bounce off yer gut, it just sucks.

So, I read a couple Riv Readers, saw what they were proposing and bought a used Riv. At that point it was a hail mary pass- I was starting to thing that I just wasn't going to be able to ride anymore, that I'd gotten too old (at 34).

Got the riv and suddenly, I could ride again. The higher handlebars made me comfortable again. The wide tires sucked up all sorts of road buzz and didn't flat as often (again, you try riding on 23s when you weigh 260).

And even better, I started to lose weight. I lost a lot of weight. I had I bike that I could ride anywhere, any time. And I did. I started riding to work, to the store, wherever. Rain didn't really slow me down (fenders are nice).

In fact, I lost so much weight (65 pounds) that I could actually ride that really nice carbon everything bike again. But honestly, I didn't care for it all that much. Too many bad memories, too narrowly focused.

Since then, I've fallen out of love with rivendell a couple times. They make stupid mistakes, just like any other company and their glassy eyed fanboys are annoying beyond words. Sold my Riv and replaced it with a custom frame.

But, Rivendell did something for me that I can't thank them enough for- they got me to stop looking at my bike as a focused thing that exists solely to give me faster times on my favorite training (for what?) route. They got me to see that a well designed bike can be fast and comfortable, and that a bike can be both beautiful and utilitarian. Folks like me who don't race still want nice bikes, you know? But we want nice bikes that are designed for what we do. And there isn't a whole lot of that in the rest of the biking industry.

So, if you don't like them, ignore them.But there may come a time in your life when they make sense.


Eloquently stated. I may add that a fendered bike....(I have an old Rudge) does not necessitate the wearing of spandex. At 235 spandex is a mixed bag. Just saying!

[fiamme red]

I like Rivendell bikes because they look pretty and I bet they are quite good at touring or cruising with comfort and any other long,short ride experience. I rode my mountain bike once to a shop about 50 miles from home just to check out the place. They had a half dozen Rivendells some were built up and some were just frames,all with prices. The shop also carried the Surly brand. Nothing against Rivendell but I'm all about the value and having said that, I left that shop thinking the Long Haul Trucker was the bike for me.

since then I have noticed a few guys on Long Haul Truckers and for a touring bike they can really move.You should consider a Bruce Gordon Taiwanese BLT. It comes with front and rear Bruce Gordon racks (made in the USA) and a nice selection of components, for only $1,500!

http://www.brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/

[Joellogicman]

since then I have noticed a few guys on Long Haul Truckers and for a touring bike they can really move.

If you kit it out with lighter wheels and gear, I guess it would be easier to ride at speed than one with heavier wheels and large guage racks and the like. It would not be as durable, however.

[dogdriver]

I like Rivendell bikes because they look pretty and I bet they are quite good at touring or cruising with comfort and any other long,short ride experience. I rode my mountain bike once to a shop about 50 miles from home just to check out the place. They had a half dozen Rivendells some were built up and some were just frames,all with prices. The shop also carried the Surly brand. Nothing against Rivendell but I'm all about the value and having said that, I left that shop thinking the Long Haul Trucker was the bike for me.

since then I have noticed a few guys on Long Haul Truckers and for a touring bike they can really move.

Surly nails the function-for-cost equation. One of their employees told me once that their philosophy is that bikes can be made to satisfy three basic requirements-- ride well, be light, and be cheap--- and that a builder can only do two of these at a time. All three of my "special use" bikes are Surly-- a Pugsley, a Karate Monkey set up as a SS 29er, and a Traveler's Check that stays in the bag unless I'm travelling with it. Great ride, great function and build flexibility, nice price, great customer service and attitude. Yes, the frames are freakin' heavy, but so am I, and I get more smiles per dollar from these bikes than any other...

But I loooove my Serotta, Chris

[paczki]

Why Rivendell engenders such anger among some in the sport bike set is simply bizarre.

I own a Romulus, which was a great deal and a cool bike. It no longer fits my needs so I gave it to a friend who loves it. I think they make, or made, nice bikes. I'm not so sure about the Bombadil (http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/bombadil/50-640).

I can only speak for myself, but what engenders my irritation is Grant Peterson's rants in the Reader (which I haven't read in years, to be honest), especially at sports bike riders, which seem misdirected. At some point in the Rivendell Reader there was a piece making fun of lycra wearers as following the herd. Similarly with the "bag matcher" stuff. It just wore on me, felt cultish, junior highish, lame, etc.. My cycling hero is the other Peterson, Kent, and one of the things I love about him is how although he is mister DIY, he never makes fun of others because he just wants more people to ride bikes more and further. He's also a beast on the bike :banana:

[buck-50]

I like Rivendell bikes because they look pretty and I bet they are quite good at touring or cruising with comfort and any other long,short ride experience. I rode my mountain bike once to a shop about 50 miles from home just to check out the place. They had a half dozen Rivendells some were built up and some were just frames,all with prices. The shop also carried the Surly brand. Nothing against Rivendell but I'm all about the value and having said that, I left that shop thinking the Long Haul Trucker was the bike for me.

since then I have noticed a few guys on Long Haul Truckers and for a touring bike they can really move.
Gotta remember that the LHT and the Pacer are pretty much copies of Riv's Atlantis and Rambouliet.

And that Riv was the one that started designing bikes around longer reach brakes that make it possible to fit fatter tires and fenders.

Riv really has changed what is available for cyclists. Hell, V-O wouldn't exist if people weren't fed up with Rivendell's crazy backstory on every product (and high prices).

[Joellogicman]

I can only speak for myself, but what engenders my irritation is Grant Peterson's rants in the Reader (which I haven't read in years, to be honest), especially at sports bike riders, which seem misdirected. At some point in the Rivendell Reader there was a piece making fun of lycra wearers as following the herd.

Probably GP should leave the sports bike crowd alone. But I think his rants are more a reaction than a provocation.

I have never been into sports riding. Over the years the sports bike crowd have at best been confused with the bikes I ride. Most are like the OP. Convinced either by marketing or whatever that bike should only be a recreational device that you haul via motorized vehicle to the recreational riding path.

The derisive remarks have gone down over the years. Lately, I find there are almost as many people on practical bikes as sports bikes. GP has to get some of the credit for this.

Sure, he probably could have done just as much with gentle persuasion. But that is not his style. Tulio was not known for being an easy going guy either.

[Joellogicman]

And that Riv was the one that started designing bikes around longer reach brakes that make it possible to fit fatter tires and fenders.

One of the early modern out fits to bring back what had been a common design from the '50s to the late '70s.

[buck-50]

One of the early modern out fits to bring back what had been a common design from the '50s to the late '70s.
Yup- but they still brought it back. It's not like anything they are doing is revolutionary, it's just that they are bringing back and re-designing a lot of stuff that makes a lot of sense on a non-racing bike.

It's not like trek or specialized was gonna do it...

[BCS]

Impressive number of posts in this thread. Slow work day for many, not just me. The little loafer tweed bag was designed for Mark's small front rack or a Nitto mini rack--which have to be attached with p-clamps to a Rambouillet and could not be any further from a loaded touring bag than a Publix bag zip-tied to the top tube. I will stop harping on the lack of braze-ons. The Rambouillet is what it is. A custom randonneuring bike will be on my wish list.

Some people don't like the GP schtick. They are put off by the "anti-racer/ carbon fiber rants. Others, like myself, who actually ride the product are disappointed in the direction that the company has turned. I admire the desire to build lugged steel frames in non-race But why does Riv offer 2 Mixte frames, the Roadeo, and a lot of 650b stuff but I can't get a Hilsen in a 54? They are clearly trying to fill multiple niches as building the Roadeo would seem to indicate. I want my niche filled ;). It seems like they are moving in multiple directions simultaneously without a clear focus, other than the pervasive counter-racing-culture mentality.

[Joellogicman]

But why does Riv offer 2 Mixte frames, the Roadeo, and a lot of 650b stuff but I can't get a Hilsen in a 54? They are clearly trying to fill multiple niches as building the Roadeo would seem to indicate. I want my niche filled ;). It seems like they are moving in multiple directions simultaneously without a clear focus, other than the pervasive counter-racing-culture mentality.

Mixtes are good for older riders, some women and people who get on and off the bike a lot on shorter rides. I think that fits with the Riv focus. They have two offerings (pretty much the only difference is size and paint scheme) because men apparently have issues buying Mixtes women buy also.

We disagree on the 650B, which is fine.

I agree the Roadeo is off theme for Riv. GP said he built it because one of his long time employees (forget which) is into club racing. I think it detracts from what Riv does. Apparently the Roadeo has been a good seller so who am I to talk?

Maybe you will get your tricked out 54 Rando Riv when one of GP's associates gets the P-B-P bug.

[fourflys]

Having owned a Bleriot, I like that Riv is different. I find it amusing that GP incites such rage in people, I bet that is exactly what he means to do at times...

Riv has gotten away from what I would like to see from them, but I can respect that... I'm on an eternal quest to find me an orange Ram just to have because that is a really good bike IMHO... of course, I think one of best Riv-type bikes that is a steal is the Salsa Cassaroll....

BTW- Awesome story from Buck-50! Kind of reminded me of Large Fella on a bike (google it), you do what you have to if you want to ride!

[fiamme red]

I agree the Roadeo is off theme for Riv. GP said he built it because one of his long time employees (forget which) is into club racing. I think it detracts from what Riv does. Apparently the Roadeo has been a good seller so who am I to talk?They also offered a cyclocross frame (the Legolas) because one of their employees races 'cross. I wonder how well that model sold.

[paulrad9]

...somewhere in a parallel universe, I bunch of BOBs have a thread titled 'Why would anyone buy a carbon fiber bike' and it's pushing five pages

I can't wait for spring when the hot topics will be "ehh, should I replace my chain, it's only got 47,000 miles on it", "will new wheels make me faster than a naturally aspirated Porsche" and "Campy vs Shimano vs SRAM - Part 117"

[rugbysecondrow]

I bet Rivendell loves people talking about them.

[eddief]

no such thing as bad publicity...and Grant of all people, knows it well. No need to be a kool aid drinker, but I do take many tastes without risking going off the cliff as a lemming.

[Ray]

I agree the Roadeo is off theme for Riv. GP said he built it because one of his long time employees (forget which) is into club racing. I think it detracts from what Riv does. Apparently the Roadeo has been a good seller so who am I to talk?
That's funny - I was really happy to see the Riv move back to a bike like the Roadeo. My first nice bike, the bike that I've done most of my miles on, a bike I no longer own but which owns most of my best riding memories, was a standard Riv Road from 1997. It was very much like the Roadeo and sold for about $1000 at the time. It was a versatile road bike. It wasn't a racing bike or a touring bike or a randonee bike, but a lot of people raced them, a lot of people did credit card tours on them, and a lot of people did randonee events on them. It was no slower than any racing bike of the day except that it might have built up to something about 1-2 pounds heavier, but right in the 20 pound range that was fairly typical back then. It was more or less an RB-1 with a lower BB, slightly longer chainstays, and more clearance for tires (although only up to about 32mm - short reach brakes). And MUCH nicer lugs and paint (Joe Bell). And one key ingredient, it FELT fast when you put a light set of wheels and skinny tires on it.

I've also owned an All-Rounder, Heron Touring, and Rambouillet. Those were all much more along the direction of "country bikes" that Grant's been pushing. They were all great bikes for some uses, but they all felt to me like something I would NOT want to take on a fast club ride. They weren't exactly slow bikes, but they FELT slower because of their geometries, chainstays getting really long, etc. I did all manner of touring and commuting and taking relaxed rides with my kids and really slow friends on these bikes. But I never felt like any of them could be my #1 bikes. I wasn't down on them for this - they did what they were designed to do, but they were almost all more dirt road / rough stuff bikes than true road bikes. They just didn't inspire you to ride long and hard on them.

Since then, they've gone farther and farther in the direction of country bikes, with more and more clearance for fatter and fatter tires, more load carrying capability, even more upright positioning (get those bars a couple of inches ABOVE the saddle), etc. Nothing wrong with any of that, but I thought it was a drag that you couldn't get a Riv that you COULD race on if that was your thing, in addition to everything else you could do on it.

The Roadeo, to my way of thinking, is a welcome step back in that direction. It shouldn't be their only bike or their primary direction, but its nice to see that its an option in their lineup. It used to be what their lineup was built around. I'm set for road bikes right now, but if I wasn't, I'd consider one.

-Ray

[AndrewS]

Wow. Lot of action, here.

I think my primary point was a little bit missed, so I'll say it in another way:

Most of the practical objectives of Rivendell could be accomplished using standard bicycles. All that's needed are better accessories, and since accessories are cheap, that would probably be better than buying an expensive, heavy bike with non-standard parts.


I am not talking about adapting current fenders to do something they weren't designed to do. I'm talking about a fender that closely follows the tire except right at the caliper/bridge/fork.

Let's say that you take an '89 Centurion Ironman (a comfortable and modest priced steel frame), put a set of fenders DESIGNED for a "racing" frame, equip it with soft running tubulars and a Technomic stem. Have we not just accomplished everything Rivendell makes a big deal about without spending a large sum on a bike with non-standard tires, brakes, etc?

I just think the accessories should serve the bike, not the other way around.

And another thing - "racing" bikes are not bizarre specialty items that are completely impractical. One doesn't ride all those miles in the TdF on a harsh, ill handling and dangerous-to-descend with bike. Racing bike geometry is the result of a century of refinement to produce bikes that are stable, comfortable and climb and descend well. Gios Compacts are the exception, not the rule.

Bicycling needs fewer tire sizes, not more. I ride a 50cm, and somehow I manage despite the 700c wheels.


And I do commute on my bikes, with street shoes and a pedal adapter and straps. And the rest of the time I ride those bikes with comfortable, non-binding lycra and shoes that allow me to sprint when I want to. I don't see the sin in believing a normal bike can be both sporty and practical. Think BMW.

[palincss]

But how hard would it have been to put an extra eyelet on the rear dropout or a mid fork braze on.

It wouldn't have been hard, but then you would have put a lowrider rack on it and used it for loaded touring, and the designer specifically did not want that. As I said earlier, he debated about putting seatstay rack mounts on at all, specifically because he was afraid if he did people would use the bike for loaded touring and in his estimation the frame was not ideal for that purpose.

I can think of much better issues to rage about. Explain to me why Cervelo specs such tight clearance on its racing frames at the fork crown and at the point where the chain stays meet the bottom bracket that you can't get a 25mm tire in there. I can understand why they no longer provide fender clearance on racing frames (they did 40 years ago) but honestly, to not allow room for a 25mm tire? How hard would it have been to provide that much room?

[michael white]

actually, there are long-established workarounds which allow fenders for short-reach brakes, though it's getting to the point where you might as well use clip-ons, because the workarounds are ugly. But there's nothing wrong with dialling back clearance to the original "standard" so that we can buy bikes which accept metal fenders with no loss of performance. I mean, that's not a sin, is it?

Sometimes I feel that Grant goes too far, especially in his anti-carbon rants, which border on silliness, but I guess that's part of the fun of it.

[goonster]

You should consider a Bruce Gordon Taiwanese BLT. It comes with front and rear Bruce Gordon racks (made in the USA) and a nice selection of components, for only $1,500!

http://www.brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/
That is an insanely good deal. Real Shimano hubs, even.

[AndrewS]

Around here an awful lot of commuters have racks and removable panniers for their clothes, work items and groceries. Most of them never see even 20 lbs. of load.

For GP to not put rack mounts on because he doesn't trust his customers to follow a recommendation vis loaded touring is either paranoid or controlling.

[palincss]

Agreed, it is not a loaded touring bike. I use a carradice bagman support and can run fenders. Can't use a handlebar bag like a Berthoud that requires a front rack for support.

The Rambouillet does not have front end geometry suitable for a large Berthoud bag that requires a front rack for support.

I had a Rambouillet which I liked a lot, but I really wanted to get back to using large handlebar bags. I sold the frame and bought a semi-custom Velo Orange Randonneur, which was designed with front end geometry suitable for such a bag. It's perfect. The production version of the Velo Orange Randonneur will be available at the end of Feb. Like the Rambouillet, it's designed for 28mm tires with fenders and long reach brakes. If it's anything like my Johnny Coast-built semi-custom, it'll be fantastic and you'll love it.

Best part, the frame's $750. When I bought my Rambouillet (I had one of the first 50 in the US) it cost me $900.

[palincss]

I know, but I meant a front-loading bike, something like a 700C Boulder Bicycle with lugs.

Grant does not like that kind of geometry. He's a saddlebag kind of guy.

The good and the bad thing about Rivendell is that it's so much the reflection of Grant's personal viewpoint. If you're wanting something he's not interested in, sorry, you are just plain out of luck.

Velo Orange is also the reflection of the owner's viewpoint and interests. Fortunately, Chris is also into lugs and very much the Francophile. The VO Randonneur is based on Herse and Singer 700C randonneur frames with traditional French front-loading geometry.

[gdw]

Grant knows his audience and does a good job providing bikes and products which appeal to them. Some of his designs are practical while others are not. I often get the feeling from looking at some of them, the Bombidill in particular, that he enjoys messing with the cult and playing them for suckers.

[palincss]

Most of the practical objectives of Rivendell could be accomplished using standard bicycles. All that's needed are better accessories, and since accessories are cheap, that would probably be better than buying an expensive, heavy bike with non-standard parts.


What is a "standard bicycle"? You mean something like a Trek Madone?

[palincss]

Around here an awful lot of commuters have racks and removable panniers for their clothes, work items and groceries. Most of them never see even 20 lbs. of load.

For GP to not put rack mounts on because he doesn't trust his customers to follow a recommendation vis loaded touring is either paranoid or controlling.

I said, he debated. And eventually did put rack mounts on the seat stays. And here you are, 8 years later, complaining that he didn't put mid-fork lowrider mounts on there so you could use it for loaded touring. Right?

[palincss]

Grant knows his audience and does a good job providing bikes and products which appeal to them. Some of his designs are practical while others are not. I often get the feeling from looking at some of them, the Bombidill in particular, that he enjoys messing with the cult and playing them for suckers.

And yet, the Bombadil owners love their bikes. You might think they're suckers, but they are very happy.

[AndrewS]

I was thinking of something with mostly round tubes (not an aero frame), but Madone or other typical "race" geometry. Like a steel Bianchi or a Ti Serotta.

There used to be a bicycle called "sport tourer", but they didn't sell well because no one felt a particular need for slack steering and long chainstays.

[Joellogicman]

For GP to not put rack mounts on because he doesn't trust his customers to follow a recommendation vis loaded touring is either paranoid or controlling.

A bike Riv no longer makes - at a time when it was the norm - did not have some rack mounts. Nearly every bike Riv makes now have multiple mounts.

To me paranoid and controlling are consumers who feel threatened by manufacturers catering to a different market segment.

[AndrewS]

To me paranoid and controlling are consumers who feel threatened by manufacturers catering to a different market segment.
That's what I love about forums - it always eventually comes down to personal insults.

[palincss]

I was thinking of something with mostly round tubes (not an aero frame), but Madone or other typical "race" geometry. Like a steel Bianchi or a Ti Serotta.

There used to be a bicycle called "sport tourer", but they didn't sell well because no one felt a particular need for slack steering and long chainstays.

There are several issues you're going to encounter trying to put touring racks on a racing frame, not the least of which is insufficient heel clearance for panniers because of those short chainstays. There's a reason touring bikes are designed the way they are.

However, I think there may exist out there a bike -- a Serotta, in fact -- that is exactly what you want. There used to be a model called the Rapid Tour. I know several people who own them and absolutely love them; one, in fact, calls herself Rapid Tourist on this forum. After it was dropped as a specific model, it was still available as optional geometry on other Serotta models. It's still pretty racy, but you could do lightly loaded credit card touring with it as well as riding it unloaded. I've seen them in both steel and titanium. I think you should seek one out -- I'll bet you'd absolutely love it.

[Joellogicman]

There used to be a bicycle called "sport tourer", but they didn't sell well because no one felt a particular need for slack steering and long chainstays.

Carry large grocery or postal run loads, etc. do. People who ride bikes every day on pot hole crevaced city streets do.

Different needs. Different markets.

Think cars. Porsche 911. Mazda Miata. Honda Accord. Chrysler Town and Country. There is a time, place and market for each. Same holds true for bikes.

[palincss]

That's what I love about forums - it always eventually comes down to personal insults.

So, it wasn't a personal insult when you said it about Grant?

[spacemen3]

The Roadeo, to my way of thinking, is a welcome step back in that direction. It shouldn't be their only bike or their primary direction, but its nice to see that its an option in their lineup. It used to be what their lineup was built around. I'm set for road bikes right now, but if I wasn't, I'd consider one.

Agreed. I liked Rivendell's custom offerings back in the late '90's. I even bought an All-Rounder. Maybe I'm just a simple caveman, but all of the branding offshoots since then continue to confuse me. And country bikes never particularly interested me. I was hoping Rivendell would continue on from where Bridgestone left off. My friend and I are currently restoring three old Bridgestones: an MB-1, MB-S, and RB-T. Those bikes had a lot of character and were great fun to ride.

[Joellogicman]

That's what I love about forums - it always eventually comes down to personal insults.

If you looked at my other posts in this thread, you would see I have heard your criticisms from sports bike riders for many years. My comment was directed to the universe of those consumers.

On the other hand, Grant Peterson is a person. Your comments directed to him are somehow not an insult?

[buck-50]

I was thinking of something with mostly round tubes (not an aero frame), but Madone or other typical "race" geometry. Like a steel Bianchi or a Ti Serotta.

There used to be a bicycle called "sport tourer", but they didn't sell well because no one felt a particular need for slack steering and long chainstays.
Nah, they sold great- sport tourers seem to have made up the bulk of the bike boom bikes. Rarely high end, but they did sell well. And I gotta tell you, my Rivendell did not have slack steering, even with it's longer chainstays.

The bias you seem to be coming from is that what manufacturers make today works great for you. That's fantastic, but there are a lot of us out there for whom the current bike trends don't work. And so, we buy stuff from or inspired by Rivendell.

Honestly, it's the same kind of argument you hear against custom bikes- 90% of people fit just fine on a standard production frame, so why buy a custom?

So, if it doesn't make sense to you, leave it alone.

[AndrewS]

I think GP is a businessman, and paranoia (of lawsuits) or wishing to control his market niche are perfectly understandable (if not laudable) traits. I was just opinioning that it was weird for a company to encourage people to go their own way and then attempt to physically limit their usage of the product. None of that is a personal attack on the marketing genius who did it.

I'm making a statement about marketing. GP has helped create a market for something by stating that there is no alternative to the problems he decided to leverage.

There are several issues you're going to encounter trying to put touring racks on a racing frame, not the least of which is insufficient heel clearance for panniers because of those short chainstays. There's a reason touring bikes are designed the way they are. That's because loaded touring racks are designed to correctly position heavy loads. But the kind of bike we're talking about is going to carry light loads, so the rack could be positioned further back to avoid heel clearance problems.

Again, make the cheap accessory fit the bike, not the bike to the cheap accessory.

I don't think my comments should be matched up with anyones' $5K Cervelo with aero seat tubes. But I think there are an awful lot of nice road bikes out there that can accomplish the role of light commuting without abandoning their roots.

[Joellogicman]

Most of the practical objectives of Rivendell could be accomplished using standard bicycles. All that's needed are better accessories, and since accessories are cheap, that would probably be better than buying an expensive, heavy bike with non-standard parts..

Riv parts are standard and easily available from non-riv sources.


I am not talking about adapting current fenders to do something they weren't designed to do. I'm talking about a fender that closely follows the tire except right at the caliper/bridge/fork.

A rock or a tree branch stuck between a fender and tire, and you go down.

And another thing - "racing" bikes are not bizarre specialty items that are completely impractical. One doesn't ride all those miles in the TdF on a harsh, ill handling and dangerous-to-descend with bike. Racing bike geometry is the result of a century of refinement to produce bikes that are stable, comfortable and climb and descend well. Gios Compacts are the exception, not the rule..

TdF riders have support crews in vans behind them ready to meet their every need. If you want to follow behind me on my daily commute with spare parts, my gear, my lap top and documents, I will start riding a TdF bike to work.

More to the point, TdF riders accept a lot of discomfort. Worth it for them as they want to win a competition. Why should I be uncomfortable commuting?

And I do commute on my bikes, with street shoes and a pedal adapter and straps. And the rest of the time I ride those bikes with comfortable, non-binding lycra and shoes that allow me to sprint when I want to. I don't see the sin in believing a normal bike can be both sporty and practical. Think BMW.

Most people with BMWs I know also have an SUV or Mini-Van. Those people who only own BMWs frequently ask friends with SUVs or mini-Vans for assistance.

[buck-50]

But I think there are an awful lot of nice road bikes out there that can accomplish the role of light commuting without abandoning their roots.

Sure, you can commute on any bike. You could commute on an 80's style funny bike if you wanted, and if you were only doing it once a month or so, it'd be great.

But when you start commuting 3,4,5 times a week, you start noticing things. Like how you wish you had fatter tires, fenders, a bell, headlights, etc.

You are right- no one needs to buy a $2000 frame for commuting. But if we were going purely on need, I'm pretty sure the company that sponsors this forum wouldn't exist.

Honestly, no one needs a 14 pound carbon wunderbike with electronic shifting, either. But they are easier to find on the market than a decent commuter.

There's plenty of room on the market for all kinds of bikes.

[Joellogicman]

I think GP is a businessman, and paranoia (of lawsuits) or wishing to control his market niche are perfectly understandable (if not laudable) traits. I was just opinioning that it was weird for a company to encourage people to go their own way and then attempt to physically limit their usage of the product. None of that is a personal attack on the marketing genius who did it.

This does not make sense. A bike GP used to sell was short some rack mounts. Not the case now.

I'm making a statement about marketing. GP has helped create a market for something by stating that there is no alternative to the problems he decided to leverage.

The fact so many have done the same before Riv in both the US and Europe (where they never stopped, BTW) and now in the U.S. are joining Riv suggests the demand was always there.

The racing bike as norm for the consumers was a marketing craze that exploded in the 1970s. It never really made sense for most of the bike consumers. You need look no further than the 1980s mountain bike explosion for proof. A stable steel bike that accomodates larger tires and fenders and allows a more upright position is a joy to ride. It will not win races, but then those buying such a bike are not looking to race.

[QUOTE=AndrewS]That's because loaded touring racks are designed to correctly position heavy loads. But the kind of bike we're talking about is going to carry light loads, so the rack could be positioned further back to avoid heel clearance problems.[QUOTE]

How would that work for the cyclist who, like I last night, want to take home a dozen apples, a bunch of bananas and some bulky cleaner bottles?

[BCS]

production version of the Velo Orange Randonneur will be available at the end of Feb.

Looks like a nice frame at a great price. and it isn't 650b

[AndrewS]

Joel,

TdF bikes are standard racing bikes, like most of us log 1000s of miles on every year. I don't have a support crew, yet am able to ride one comfortably for 7 hours. It doesn't suddenly become uncomfortable because I'm riding to work rather than for pleasure. Get it? Racing bikes are not, by their nature, uncomfortable.

Racing bikes are not designed for loaded touring. Neither are most Rivendells.


I'm of the opinion that Rivendell sells complicated solutions to phantom problems by demonizing a type of bike that actually has amazing utility and efficiency. You can put a bell, fenders, light racks, lights, squishier tires on a road bike.

The current limit for road bikes seems to be 28c tire (which is fairly fat). GP says that isn't nearly big enough. If road bikes could accommodate 35c tires they probably still wouldn't be big enough either, because how are you going to sell specialty frames if you concede that a regular road bike can do the job?

I'm not saying that a racing bike is the solution for every problem, but Rivendells seem to be solutions for the most subtle of problems.

Does anyone here actually feel that their road bike seat stays are too short for fast descents??????? GP says they are.

[fiamme red]

You can put a bell, fenders, light racks, lights, squishier tires on a road bike.

The current limit for road bikes seems to be 28c tire (which is fairly fat).Show me a road bike that can accommodate 28C tires and full fenders.

[AndrewS]

Do the fenders have to go UNDER the brake bridge?

[palincss]

Do the fenders have to go UNDER the brake bridge?

Well, they sure aren't going to go OVER the fork crown.

[AndrewS]

No, but they can start and stop at the fork crown, or go around it. Is that really that radical an idea?

[palincss]

No, but they can start and stop at the fork crown, or go around it. Is that really that radical an idea?

The product you want is called the River City Reacharound.
http://rivercitybicycles.com/product/reacharound-fender-brackets-737.htm


http://rivercitybicycles.com/merchant/1846/images/large/reacharound_med.jpg

However, it's imperfect - the fender is split at the brakes, and those areas do leak.

[sg8357]

Show me a road bike that can accommodate 28C tires and full fenders.

Bike is designed for 30mm tires + fenders, tires in pic are ProRace2 "25"
really 27mm. Fenders go under the brake bridges.

[rugbysecondrow]

The product you want is called the River City Reacharound.
http://rivercitybicycles.com/product/reacharound-fender-brackets-737.htm


http://rivercitybicycles.com/merchant/1846/images/large/reacharound_med.jpg

However, it's imperfect - the fender is split at the brakes, and those areas do leak.

Are we still talking about fenders?

[palincss]

Nice bike. What is it? It almost looks like a Rivendell. :)

Other "road bikes" that can accommodate wider tires and fenders are the Hampsten Strada Bianca and the Tournesol sportif. But now we're getting pretty far afield from what is currently known as a "road bike" as found in your average local bike shop.

[palincss]

Are we still talking about fenders?

Quoting from the River City web site:


Reacharound Fender Brackets

Nobody wants to abandon a good bike for the winter, but some frames just won't cooperate with fenders. Should you hang up your cycling shoes until things dry out?

Of course not.

Reacharound Fender Brackets, built exclusively for River City Bicycles, provide an elegant split-fender installation when your frame and fork don't leave room for an intact fender to pass through.

Besides being functional and adjustable, the unique Reacharound mounting brackets are designed to be weather-resistant, durable and good-looking.

Since Reacharound installation does require cutting and drilling a perfectly good set of fenders, we recommend you put the job in the hands of our experienced service department, for dead-on alignment and optimum fender coverage.


The only bike I've seen that actually has these is Bones' orange Spectrum. In that case, the fenders are SKS.

[fiamme red]

Bike is designed for 30mm tires + fenders, tires in pic are ProRace2 "25"
really 27mm. Fenders go under the brake bridges.That's a very nice bike. But I was referring to road bikes that you can buy in your LBS (not including Rivendell imitators like Surly, Soma, Salsa, etc.).

[sg8357]

Nice bike. What is it? It almost looks like a Rivendell. :)

Other "road bikes" that can accommodate wider tires and fenders are the Hampsten Strada Bianca and the Tournesol sportif. But now we're getting pretty far afield from what is currently known as a "road bike" as found in your average local bike shop.

Bike is a Chris Kvale.

If you want to see a bike that really looks like a Rivendell,
try Fausto Coppis 1949 Bianchi.

[palincss]

Bike is a Chris Kvale.

If you want to see a bike that really looks like a Rivendell,
try Fausto Coppis 1949 Bianchi.

Kvale's certainly a very well respected custom builder.

It's interesting to see how much racing bikes have changed from what they once were.

[fiamme red]

Bike is a Chris Kvale.

If you want to see a bike that really looks like a Rivendell,
try Fausto Coppis 1949 Bianchi.Like this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Road-Bicycle-1940-Bianchi-Folgorissima_W0QQitemZ140353377509QQcmdZViewItemQQ ptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item20adb694e5) on eBay? [Edited: my mistake, that's a 1940.]

The Rivendell Folgorissima! Now that sounds much better than Roadeo, don't you think?

[palincss]

I think it'd be dandy if Bianchi brought that model back!

[jeffg]

I should own a more multi-purpose bike.

I ride my "race bikes" (including a Serotta) for up to 15 hours in a day sometimes. I have to descend sketchy roads, and sometimes at night.

Race bikes are great for that.

Commuting, going to the store, exploring off the beaten path? Not so much.

I think a Hampsten Strada Bianca would be perfect if I ever got back to Europe with all the half paved awesome bike paths everywhere. I want something I can ride the paths and climb a mountain pass on.

As for a Riv, I'd rather spend my money here:

http://www.hampsten.com/tournesol/

[palincss]

It doesn't get much nicer than Tournesol.

[goonster]

Show me a road bike that can accommodate 28C tires and full fenders.
Maybe he means a Continental labeled "28c" and actually measuring, uh, less.

That Kvale is a gorgeous bike. It reminds me of a certain someone's bike. I'll try to post pics, if can find them.

Are those centerpulls? I know of someone advocating centerpulls on all kinds of bikes a while back . . .

[Joellogicman]

Joel,

TdF bikes are standard racing bikes, like most of us log 1000s of miles on every year. I don't have a support crew, yet am able to ride one comfortably for 7 hours. It doesn't suddenly become uncomfortable because I'm riding to work rather than for pleasure. Get it? Racing bikes are not, by their nature, uncomfortable.

I own a racing bike and I own a commuter designed for more upright riding, fits tires over 60, has full fenders, and can easily carry anything I may bring with me to work or home from the store. The latter is far more comfortable.

I'm of the opinion that Rivendell sells complicated solutions to phantom problems by demonizing a type of bike that actually has amazing utility and efficiency. You can put a bell, fenders, light racks, lights, squishier tires on a road bike.

If this were only a Rivendell thing, you would not have Soma, Surly, and a host of other U.S. makers building for the same market. If it were only a Rivendell thing you would not have had people who never go off road buying Stump Jumpers and later hybrids throughout the 80s and 90s when the only street bikes were designed for racing. If this were only a Rivendell thing you would not have had half of the Netherlands, Germany, Scandanavia, Japan, etc. cyclists riding similar bikes.

The current limit for road bikes seems to be 28c tire (which is fairly fat). GP says that isn't nearly big enough. If road bikes could accommodate 35c tires they probably still wouldn't be big enough either, because how are you going to sell specialty frames if you concede that a regular road bike can do the job?

As I say above, my commuter, which is a custom build, accommodates 60c tires and above. I first decided I wanted one not because of Riv marketing, but because I happened to ride a German bike built for Schwalbe Big Apple Tires.

I'm not saying that a racing bike is the solution for every problem, but Rivendells seem to be solutions for the most subtle of problems.


I would point out that the current renaissance of cycling in the U.S. is concurrent with the rise of Riv and the like designing bikes for comfort, not speed. Subtle or no, the problems kept many people from riding who are now that the solution is readily available.

[Joellogicman]

Like this one (http://cgi.ebay.it/Vintage-Road-Bicycle-1940-Bianchi-Folgorissima_W0QQitemZ140353377509QQcmdZViewItemQQ ssPageNameZRSS:B:SILF:IT:105) on eBay? [Edited: my mistake, that's a 1940.]

The Rivendell Folgorissima! Now that sounds much better than Roadeo, don't you think?

A lot of scratch for a wall hanger though. Maybe if I had bigger digs ...

[sg8357]

Are those centerpulls? I know of someone advocating centerpulls on all kinds of bikes a while back . . .

Brazed on Paul CPs, first version, bike was built in 2005, 2nd Kvale with
the Pauls. I was going with cantis, for the fender clearance, CK suggested the Pauls, I like them.

[buck-50]

Here is my solution to problems that don't exist.

Fits 32mm tires and full fenders, built to carry a bag, has geometry surprisingly similar to that '49 bianchi mentioned earlier.

http://i49.tinypic.com/mts2nc.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/oswy1z.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/1onho5.jpg

[AndrewS]

Joel,

This is a Rivendell thing. Surly and Soma offer straightforward and reasonably priced solutions for the kind of people who want a simple, comfortable bike. They also sell radical solutions like the Big Dummy. Neither of these companies market their products by insisting that everyone else is doing it wrong. They just offer a bike with certain capabilities.

Rivendell sells expensive solutions to problems they dredge up and exaggerate. They market to a type of utility elitism that is just as ridiculous as the worst weight weenie-isms.

I didn't write all this because I think it important that people put fenders on their Madones. I wrote this because statemets like road bike chain stays are too short for descending are disingenuous and inflammatory. As a marketing practice it bothers me, so I have attempted to point out that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I would never fault anyone for buying a lovely Rivendell or really enjoying it's features. But the rest of us aren't foolish for riding a style of bike who's geometry, fit and handling have been the result of a century of refinement.


And the marketing boom of both sport touring bikes and mountain bikes has swung back over to racing style road bikes. Why? Lots of reasons, but some of them have a lot do to with having a comfortable bike to go far and fast on.

[Joellogicman]

Are you around 6' 2" or so?

Love the pics in the snow.

[buck-50]

Joel,

This is a Rivendell thing. Surly and Soma offer straightforward and reasonably priced solutions for the kind of people who want a simple, comfortable bike. They also sell radical solutions like the long haul trucker. Neither of these companies market their products by insisting that everyone else is doing it wrong. They just offer a bike with certain capabilities.

Rivendell sells expensive solutions to problems they dredge up and exaggerate. They market to a type of utility elitism that is just as ridiculous as the worst weight weenie-isms.

I didn't write all this because I think it important that people put fenders on their Madones. I wrote this because statemets like road bike chain stays are too short for descending are disingenuous and inflammatory. As a marketing practice it bothers me, so I have attempted to point out that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I would never fault anyone for buying a lovely Rivendell or really enjoying it's features. But the rest of us aren't foolish for riding a style of bike who's geometry, fit and handling have been the result of a century of refinement.


And the marketing boom of both sport touring bikes and mountain bikes has swung back over to racing style road bikes. Why? Lots of reasons, but some of them have a lot do to with having a comfortable bike to go far and fast on.

And surly and soma have a market and designs because of Riv. Again, that "radical solution" the LHT is pretty much a direct copy of the Rivendell Atlantis.

Riv is what they call the bleeding edge- they are expensive as hell, they are early adopters and they have a cult following that will pay what they demand. Their ideas trickle down to other companies who, now that there's an established demand, can build them cheaper and easier.

[AndrewS]

Sorry, I meant "Big Dummy" for radical solutions. Edited.

[Ray]

This is a Rivendell thing. Surly and Soma offer straightforward and reasonably priced solutions for the kind of people who want a simple, comfortable bike. They also sell radical solutions like the long haul trucker. Neither of these companies market their products by insisting that everyone else is doing it wrong. They just offer a bike with certain capabilities.

Where does someone like you come from? You show up after just a few posts (no problem with that on its own) and just start a thread slamming a very specific bike maker who, for whatever reasons, has given many riders many happy miles of all sorts. Why? Did they insult your mother?

Please, just hurry the eff up and don't friggin' BUY one. Can you do that for me RIGHT NOW?

Thank you,

-Ray

[buck-50]

Are you around 6' 2" or so?

Love the pics in the snow.
Yup- I'm a big'un. Less Clydesdale than Percheron.

[Joellogicman]

Joel,

This is a Rivendell thing. Surly and Soma offer straightforward and reasonably priced solutions for the kind of people who want a simple, comfortable bike. They also sell radical solutions like the long haul trucker. Neither of these companies market their products by insisting that everyone else is doing it wrong. They just offer a bike with certain capabilities..

Everything I have ever read from GP says racing design is wrong for most people.

Rivendell sells expensive solutions to problems they dredge up and exaggerate. They market to a type of utility elitism that is just as ridiculous as the worst weight weenie-isms.

Rivendell bikes are modestly expensive because they are well made lugged steel. Rivendell components - almost all of which existed before Riv and are sold through many different outlets - are expensive because they are made either in the U.S. (Phil Wood, Paul), Japan, (Nitto, Honjo), and even Italy (Campy triple front der). Their manufacturers have long standing reputations as being among the very best. They are worth every penny.

I didn't write all this because I think it important that people put fenders on their Madones. I wrote this because statemets like road bike chain stays are too short for descending are disingenuous and inflammatory. As a marketing practice it bothers me, so I have attempted to point out that there is more than one way to skin a cat..

Racing geometry is impractical for most riding. It is not disingenuous to say so.

I would never fault anyone for buying a lovely Rivendell or really enjoying it's features. But the rest of us aren't foolish for riding a style of bike who's geometry, fit and handling have been the result of a century of refinement.

Throughout most of that century, refinements were mostly for common practical bikes. The auto boom - not racing bikes - almost killed practical bikes. Now that people want an alternative, practical bikes are coming back.


And the marketing boom of both sport touring bikes and mountain bikes has swung back over to racing style road bikes. Why? Lots of reasons, but some of them have a lot do to with having a comfortable bike to go far and fast on.

You must be living in a world different than I. In the 80s and 90s, most bike sales were either mountain or hybrid. Mountain and hybrids are losing market share not to race bikes but to Rivs, Somas, Surlys, Dutch bikes, and the like.

[palincss]

Here is my solution to problems that don't exist.

Fits 32mm tires and full fenders, built to carry a bag, has geometry surprisingly similar to that '49 bianchi mentioned earlier.
[/IMG]

Oh my, that is beautiful. What is that?

[McQueen]

[QUOTE=buck-50]Here is my solution to problems that don't exist.

Fits 32mm tires and full fenders, built to carry a bag, has geometry surprisingly similar to that '49 bianchi mentioned earlier.
[QUOTE]

Buck - that's some ole school shiznit there. What is the handlebar tape? and how does the twine at the end hold the tape on? I've never seen that.

Cool set up - no pun intended.

By the way, this may be one of the more entertaining threads I've seen. I had to peruse the Rivendell website (not previously read it) - the dissertation on how clipless pedals are useless and followed by the merits of pedaling with Teva sandals (with an option for Crocs) on platform pedals tells me all I need to know. I'm not in his demographic, and yet I can see how there would be a cycling counterculture that would be turned on by him.

[buck-50]

Oh my, that is beautiful. What is that?
Custom Banjo Bicycles Randonneur... Just got the frame back in december. Now I just have to wait for it to thaw out so I can give it a serious shakedown.

[Joellogicman]

Custom Banjo Bicycles Randonneur... Just got the frame back in december. Now I just have to wait for it to thaw out so I can give it a serious shakedown.

Ahren used to build bikes and racks for Velo Orange. I met him once when I Jonnycycles was doing a rebuild for me. I should have recognized the beautiful stem, as Ahren made the one I used as well.

[Joellogicman]

the dissertation on how clipless pedals are useless and followed by the merits of pedaling with Teva sandals (with an option for Crocs) on platform pedals tells me all I need to know. I'm not in his demographic, and yet I can see how there would be a cycling counterculture that would be turned on by him.

So it is Birkenstocks only for me, baby. :p

[buck-50]

Buck - that's some ole school shiznit there. What is the handlebar tape? and how does the twine at the end hold the tape on? I've never seen that.

Cool set up - no pun intended.

By the way, this may be one of the more entertaining threads I've seen. I had to peruse the Rivendell website (not previously read it) - the dissertation on how clipless pedals are useless and followed by the merits of pedaling with Teva sandals (with an option for Crocs) on platform pedals tells me all I need to know. I'm not in his demographic, and yet I can see how there would be a cycling counterculture that would be turned on by him.

The handlebar tape is just good old fashioned cloth tape in light gray. It's cheap, it's light and when my handlebars are close to level with the saddle, I find I don't need much padding. Also, it wears like iron.

The hemp twine wrap is another old rivendell trick- you make a loop, wrap over it then stick the end of the twine through the loop, pull it under the wrapped twine and cut off the remaining end. Works great.

And yeah, not everything rivendell says makes sense for everyone... I still like my clipless pedals better than platforms... and from mountain biking, I know better than to use BMX-style pinned platform pedals on a bike without shin protection.

[buck-50]

Ahren used to build bikes and racks for Velo Orange. I met him once when I Jonnycycles was doing a rebuild for me. I should have recognized the beautiful stem, as Ahren made the one I used as well.

Yup. That front rack Ahren made, sold to VO, who sold it to me, all so I could give it back to Ahren to put on my bike.

[palincss]

That Banjo Randonneur is a beaut. Tell us more about it. Are there more photos on flickr or some other photo sharing site?

[buck-50]

That Banjo Randonneur is a beaut. Tell us more about it. Are there more photos on flickr or some other photo sharing site?
I'll post some pics to the customs forum in the next couple days or so...

In the meantime, there's this link...

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=199904

[93legendti]

Bike is designed for 30mm tires + fenders, tires in pic are ProRace2 "25"
really 27mm. Fenders go under the brake bridges.
iirc, Gary Fisher makes one as well. 28c tires, 25c with fenders.

http://www.fisherbikes.com/bike/model/cronus

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/07/bikes-tech/gary-fishers-new-road-line-aims-for-race-utility_96114

[Ken Robb]

I often check out the profile of folks who post to see what their background may be. AndrewS' says he was born in 1992. 49 years ago when I was 18 I had all the answers too. Now I have trouble remembering the questions. :rolleyes:

I suppose it's easier to be comfortable all day on a race bike when you're under 30 than at 67. :)

[AndrewS]

I'm 38. I never filled out a profile age.

[Ken Robb]

well someone did it for you then.

[AndrewS]

The software did. If you leave the year blank (which is an option during registration) it apparently defaults to 1992 in the display.

So now I'm 20 years older. But I am still riding the racing bike I built when I was 17.

[palincss]

iirc, Gary Fisher makes one as well. 28c tires, 25c with fenders.

http://www.fisherbikes.com/bike/model/cronus

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/07/bikes-tech/gary-fishers-new-road-line-aims-for-race-utility_96114

It's true, 25mm with fenders, 28mm without is a step forward, but it isn't really in the same ballpark as that Banjo or my Velo Orange Randonneur. There's a big difference between 25mm with fenders and 30mm tires with fenders -- especially since there's really only one well known 30mm randonneuring tire, and it actually measures 32mm. But for a carbon fiber racer, yes it is a big step forward.

[Ken Robb]

Aha--there's a reason to enter a date that you like or else they will make you out to be a high school kid. Get back to me in 30 years and let me know how that bike fits then. How's that for optimism? :)

[AndrewS]

I ride with a two brothers in their late '60s. They ride Kestrels set up pretty much like mine.

[palincss]

Get back to me in 30 years and let me know how that bike fits then. How's that for optimism? :)

Optimism about the bike lasting that long, or about him making it to [y]our advanced age?
;)

[Hard Fit]

The bike club here thinks Grant Peterson is GOD. Constantly have to read his truisms in the newsletter. Sheeeesh.

[Kirk007]

so if I get a Riv frame, repaint it like a Peg ciavete, and then hang carbon bits on it, with a high rise stem, zero setback seat post and a mirror on the bar end, will I have managed to piss off just about everyone suffering from cabin fever induced let's dump on those who aren't like me, or have I missed a constituency?

just wonderin'

[buck-50]

that would be awesome.

Like hanging vintage nuovo record on a meivici and then painting faux-lugs on it.

[Ken Robb]

Optimism about the bike lasting that long, or about him making it to [y]our advanced age?
;)
Or me making it into my late 90s. I seem to recall about the same age as me ????

[Karin Kirk]

so if I get a Riv frame, repaint it like a Peg ciavete, and then hang carbon bits on it, with a high rise stem, zero setback seat post and a mirror on the bar end, will I have managed to piss off just about everyone suffering from cabin fever induced let's dump on those who aren't like me, or have I missed a constituency?

just wonderin'
don't forget to dis Al Gore somewhere along the way ;)

[endosch2]

I get bored looking at / thinking about / discussing / considering / contemplating the retro thing. Lugs....bore.... steel....bore..... me- getting -very sleepy.

That is my rant. I am sick of it. The retro grouches have more bikes and are more of slaves of marketing than anyone I know who rides a ti / carbon/ aluminum / whatever bike in the fast, weekend warrior, group rides. They are the members of the anarchist club.

[jeffg]

Everything I have ever read from GP says racing design is wrong for most people.

Racing geometry is impractical for most riding. It is not disingenuous to say so.


It might not be disingenuous, but it's wrong ...

Ask Richard Sachs about geometry for long distance riding ... loaded touring is another matter, but that's not most riding in my experience.

[buck-50]

I get bored looking at / thinking about / discussing / considering / contemplating the retro thing. Lugs....bore.... steel....bore..... me- getting -very sleepy.

That is my rant. I am sick of it. The retro grouches have more bikes and are more of slaves of marketing than anyone I know who rides a ti / carbon/ aluminum / whatever bike in the fast, weekend warrior, group rides. They are the members of the anarchist club.
I think you mean anachronist. :beer:

[Kirk007]

I get bored looking at / thinking about / discussing / considering / contemplating the retro thing. Lugs....bore.... steel....bore..... me- getting -very sleepy.

That is my rant. I am sick of it. The retro grouches have more bikes and are more of slaves of marketing than anyone I know who rides a ti / carbon/ aluminum / whatever bike in the fast, weekend warrior, group rides. They are the members of the anarchist club.

I get bored with the concept that a bike is defined by the materials that it is constructed with; I get bored with the concept that anyone else's judgment as to what a bike should be should matter to anyone else who has worked to figure it out for themselves; I get bored with labels, generalizations and club mentality; and most weekend warrior group rides make me want to puke (and not from the level of exertion). Mostly I'm bored with this weather...

[palincss]

Or me making it into my late 90s. I seem to recall about the same age as me ????

Exactly. That's what the play on "your/our" age was about.

[sjbraun]

Let's face, the man has a lot to be proud of. Without Rivendell, would there be a Velo-Orange or Kogswell today?
For many years GP's provided an alternative to big bike company choices.
(I'm not sure he has as much to offer when compared to custom builders.)
He should be respected, but then he goes and makes these absolutely stupid claims like the statement in the last reader where he implies that a cf frame will disintegrate in three years.

It's fine with me if he prefers steel, but he just makes a fool of himself when he makes blatantly false statements to disparage non-ferrous frame materials.

[Ken Robb]

I've met him. He has a Puckish sense of humor and is a sharp marketer. I think the "outrageous" comments don't necessarily reflect what he would admit to on his deathbed. Think how many people go to his website after hearing about his "outrageous" comments. If it weren't for Grant I wouldn't know that everyone who rides plastic bikes and shaves his legs is a sexual prevert. :)

[paulrad9]

He should be respected, but then he goes and makes these absolutely stupid claims like the statement in the last reader where he implies that a cf frame will disintegrate in three years.
Grant is all about the bike as a vehicle and that vehicle usually has stuff attached to it. How long do you think a cf would last on a loaded tour?

[bogester]

"I get bored looking at / thinking about / discussing / considering / contemplating the retro thing. Lugs....bore.... steel....bore..... me- getting -very sleepy.

That is my rant. I am sick of it. The retro grouches have more bikes and are more of slaves of marketing than anyone I know who rides a ti / carbon/ aluminum / whatever bike in the fast, weekend warrior, group rides. They are the members of the anarchist club."

On your next ride count the number of retro bikes you see. Guessing the R grouches are about 1-5 percent of the bikes you see...unless you live in Eugene. Kind of like the goth kids in a high school. Really not very many, but they are weird...so they suck.

[sjbraun]

Grant is all about the bike as a vehicle and that vehicle usually has stuff attached to it. How long do you think a cf would last on a loaded tour?

Huh? This isn't relevant to my post. GP doesn't slam the application of carbon for touring bikes, he denigrates carbon's use in any bike.

There are many possible bikes and it really is okay to have a special purpose frame. Heck, even Rivendell makes specialty frames: the "go-fast" Roadeo, the Atlantis for loaded touring, a cyclocross frame, a strolling bike (the mixtes,) and his "country bikes." I'm not sure I accept your vehicle metaphor in the face of the current Riv options. While the Roadeo has eyelets, a Miata has a trunk. I don't think either would be of much use coming home from Costco.

I never suggested cf would be a wise choice for a touring bike. My gripe with GP is that he lies about carbon frames in an attempt to promote his preferred frame material.

[johnnymossville]

Riv = Liberal Arts College Professor Bike.

At least that's what I think of.

[palincss]

Riv = Liberal Arts College Professor Bike.

At least that's what I think of.

Well, let's see. I know several Riv owners, myself included. They are:

- retired music teacher + paint department manager + physical therapist + insect exterminator
- retired web developer + librarian + auto parts dept manager + army officer
- retired realtor + high performance driving instructor + army officer
- owner/member, bike shop coop + bike mechanic + musician
- retired insurance something-or-other
- federal administrative law judge
- manager of some sort of food product factory
- college professor of yoga & sanskrit + language expert (but expect to see him in pink Rapha rather than tweed sports jackets)

[paulrad9]

Huh? ....I never suggested cf would be a wise choice for a touring bike. My gripe with GP is that he lies about carbon frames in an attempt to promote his preferred frame material.

I'm not looking at each individual bike, I'm looking at Grant's target market. For him, bikes are a utility item, a tool, and subject to abuse. And in his world, steel makes for a better tool. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but Grant has a product that fulfills a niche that he carved out and that's pretty cool in a world of racing bikes.

As for lying about frame material, haven't all manufacturers done that? Most new riders I meet believe steel weighs a lot more than cf and will make them slow but in reality, what's the different, 500 grams tops? For most riders that means nothing.

[fiamme red]

Well, let's see. I know several Riv owners, myself included. They are:

- retired music teacher + paint department manager + physical therapist + insect exterminator
- retired web developer + librarian + auto parts dept manager + army officer
- retired realtor + high performance driving instructor + army officer
- owner/member, bike shop coop + bike mechanic + musician
- retired insurance something-or-other
- federal administrative law judge
- manager of some sort of food product factory
- college professor of yoga & sanskrit + language expert (but expect to see him in pink Rapha rather than tweed sports jackets)But they're all anarchists, no?

[johnnymossville]

Well, let's see. I know several Riv owners, myself included. They are:

- retired music teacher + paint department manager + physical therapist + insect exterminator
- retired web developer + librarian + auto parts dept manager + army officer
- retired realtor + high performance driving instructor + army officer
- owner/member, bike shop coop + bike mechanic + musician
- retired insurance something-or-other
- federal administrative law judge
- manager of some sort of food product factory
- college professor of yoga & sanskrit + language expert (but expect to see him in pink Rapha rather than tweed sports jackets)


You know a lot of Riv owners. I don't know any, therefore my shallow stereotypical view of them. hehe

:p

by the way I think Rivendell bikes are cool. I'm more likely to buy a tired old steel frame off ebay and build it up Rivendell style than buy the actual bike though.

[buck-50]

but then he goes and makes these absolutely stupid claims like the statement in the last reader where he implies that a cf frame will disintegrate in three years.

It's fine with me if he prefers steel, but he just makes a fool of himself when he makes blatantly false statements to disparage non-ferrous frame materials.
Honestly, from his perspective, I can see what he means- try commuting for 3 years on a carbon frame, doing the kind of weekend camping rides on dirt roads, etc- it's brutal on steel, I can't even imagine what that would do to carbon road frame. I'm not even sure I'd want to do that to a carbon MTB...

I've seen carbon frames that cracked because someone leaned on the top tube the wrong way. Would you lock a carbon frame up to a stop sign or into the bike rack at the grocery store? You scrape paint off a steel frame that's one thing, but you scrape down to the weave on carbon and you could have some problems...

[paczki]

Honestly, from his perspective, I can see what he means- try commuting for 3 years on a carbon frame, doing the kind of weekend camping rides on dirt roads, etc- it's brutal on steel, I can't even imagine what that would do to carbon road frame. I'm not even sure I'd want to do that to a carbon MTB...

I've seen carbon frames that cracked because someone leaned on the top tube the wrong way. Would you lock a carbon frame up to a stop sign or into the bike rack at the grocery store? You scrape paint off a steel frame that's one thing, but you scrape down to the weave on carbon and you could have some problems...

But it's not the material itself. You could make a carbon bike that would satisfy all your needs to a T. There are carbon cross country bikes that do just fine. It's that makers who make carbon road bikes aren't particularly interested in this market.

[Joellogicman]

It might not be disingenuous, but it's wrong ...

Ask Richard Sachs about geometry for long distance riding ... loaded touring is another matter, but that's not most riding in my experience.

While I suppose U.S. bicyclists still include a significant percentage who ride primarily for recreation/exercise, there is a growing number of people who use the bike as a primary mode of transportation.

Sachs bikes are great for racing and fun riding. They are hardly optimal for getting to work, goind around town and attending to errands.

Seems to me both types of bikes have their place.

[Frankwurst]

Why don't you all come over to my house and we'll all have a couple of drinks on my porch (dress warm), stumble into my garage, look over the two Rivs I have there, head downstairs, have a couple more and finish putting together the one I'm currently working on. Buck-50 gets to plug the bars. I'll provide the Fat Squirrel. Then I'll explain in ten words or less why I ride heavy steel bikes with fat tires ( I also have some Fat Tire Ale for the non Fat Squirrel drinkers). :beer:

[Joellogicman]

The bike club here thinks Grant Peterson is GOD. Constantly have to read his truisms in the newsletter. Sheeeesh.

If GP were really a god to these clubist you mention, they would disband.

[Joellogicman]

Why don't you all come over to my house and we'll all have a couple of drinks on my porch (dress warm), stumble into my garage, look over the two Rivs I have there, head downstairs, have a couple more and finish putting together the one I'm currently working on. Buck-50 gets to plug the bars. I'll provide the Fat Squirrel. Then I'll explain in ten words or less why I ride heavy steel bikes with fat tires ( I also have some Fat Tire Ale for the non Fat Squirrel drinkers). :beer:

To spend a cold winter day.

[Ray]

Looks like a very pleasant way ... To spend a cold winter day.
Yeah, if you're a frickin' COLLEGE professor! :cool:

-Ray

[Ken Robb]

Looking at Frankwurst's porch reminds me that I wish we all would include our location in our profiles so I'd know how to interpret pix and postings. That photo reminds me why Les and I won't be moving to the Finger Lakes no matter how lovely it is from May to mid-October. :)

[McQueen]

Buck-50 gets to plug the bars.

True that.. - seeing that handle bar tape and twine job is still an image I can't get out of my head. Amazing..

Has a certain artisnal quality that cinelli cork and electrical tape lacks.

[goonster]

One thing should be restated unequivocally, for the record:

Grant knows bikes.

He knows race bikes, mountain bikes and country bikes. He knows custom, small-batch and mass-produced bikes. He knows geometry and he knows how to fit people. He rides lots.

His current pitch may not be targeting you. His message may not conform to your worldview. His company and products may not appeal to you. He may not be a ruthlessly efficient captain of commercial enterprise.

But it would be a mistake to dismiss him as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

http://www.picpile.net/ims/pic_264UD99M/50638.jpg

[Joellogicman]

Yeah, if you're a frickin' COLLEGE professor! :cool:

-Ray

and saw an impentrable wall of tenured baby boomers on finishing my undergraduate degree, I probably would have gone on and gotten a PhD in the classics (I think now they would call it Mediterranean Antiquities) rather than on to business and professional school.

So guilty as charged!

[Joellogicman]

But it would be a mistake to dismiss him as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

The Waterford built Hilsen I got for nephew is a very nice bike. Solid, versatile, a joy to ride.

[eddief]

this is so much more aerobic than actually getting on a bike and pedaling.

i think grant might call it viral marketing.

[fourflys]

The Waterford built Hilsen I got for nephew is a very nice bike. Solid, versatile, a joy to ride.

Can I be your nephew? :D

[BengeBoy]

If you read the Rivendell Reader, Bicycle Quarterly, Rivendell's wesite and the Velo Orange website, you can learn a lot. I'd add Bicycle Times and Momentum Magazine to a well balanced diet of bicycle reading that is not all about lighter/faster/latest-greatest.

You can then apply what you've learned to:

- Spec'ing an all-weather custom bike
- Restoring old bikes
- Buying a VO frame
- Buying a Rivendell frame, or
- Buying something else.

Some of Grant's views are over the top, but I almost always learn something and/or get a chuckle out of them. That's worth something to me, so I make sure I spend some money at his store from time to time.

BTW, I know several Rivendell owners who can ride rings around me, and I don't think any of them are college professors.

[Joellogicman]

Can I be your nephew? :D

You would probably be more grateful :rolleyes:

I gave it to him at his graduation party. I think he took about four seconds away from his friends to thank me. (although he has e-mailed me pics from time to time)

[zott28]

I think it's funny that this thread hit right after my first visit to Riv HQ to buy a rack for my commuter.

I think Grant is a guy that found a way to make a living, and provide a living for others, based on something he loves. The preaching for the comfort bike and against carbon is just the most honest form of marketing that you can get. Seeing Riv's showroom, warehouse office, you know that he is saying what he believes and not trying to hype up or over market his products. There is nothing fancy about the place, just guys working. The web site is focused on how the product works and it's reliability. The Reader has just as many articles about broken steel as it does carbon. Whether or not I buy into all he preaches, it still makes me want to listen and if it works for me, buy something from Riv.

[eddief]

you really need him?

He would KNOW how we should be looking at this discussion.

[Ray]

where is Douglas Brooks when you really need him?

He would KNOW how we should be looking at this discussion.
He's here. He's the ONE college professor who lived up to the Johnny's stereotype in Steve's earlier list of Riv owners. But I don't think he counts - he owns more bikes than everyone here combined, almost all of them are nice or interesting, and Rivs are a very small percentage of what's hanging in his museum.....err, basement.

I think he's spent enough bandwidth defending Riv through the years to want to waste any more time on it. People who don't like 'em aren't gonna suddenly start. And people who do aren't gonna suddenly stop (unless Riv forsakes steel for super light carbon and starts pushing boutique wheels).

-Ray

[fiamme red]

He's here. He's the ONE college professor who lived up to the Johnny's stereotype in Steve's earlier list of Riv owners. But I don't think he counts - he owns more bikes than everyone here combined, almost all of them are nice or interesting, and Rivs are a very small percentage of what's hanging in his museum.....err, basement.

I think he's spent enough bandwidth defending Riv through the years to want to waste any more time on it. People who don't like 'em aren't gonna suddenly start. And people who do aren't gonna suddenly stop (unless Riv forsakes steel for super light carbon and starts pushing boutique wheels).

-RayHe doesn't post here anymore (maybe he posts "across the hall," I don't know). He said last year that he was tired of the negativity on the Forum and didn't feel that he had anything to contribute.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=637994&postcount=8

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=638093&postcount=21

[eddief]

still miss him. he and grant, over the last 10 years, have influenced my perspective on materials, fit, and the enjoyment of all things bike. i said influenced. in many cases, i had to buy one myself, test it out, and decide if it was right for me or not. i counted the other day, and i think it came to 22 bikes in less than 10 years.

this has included a huge variety:

Ritchey Road Logic
Too small CSI
custom Habanero
traditional Specialized Sequoia
really old Stumpjumper
2 orange Rambouillets
2 blue Bleriots
TST titanium
gorgeous Ibis Spanky with steel fork
Bacchetta Corsa hi racer
Giant Carbon OCR
Volae Century medium racer
Easy Racers Tour Easy
Easy Racers Gold Rush
Trice QNT trike
Koupled Kogswell P58

Final four:

Custom Rex
Fuji Touring
Easy Racers Ti Rush
Bike Friday Crusoe


I blame it all on Dbrk and Grant.

[fiamme red]

I blame it all on Dbrk and Grant.Sorry, but I can't imagine dbrk riding a recumbent. :)

[William]

He doesn't post here anymore (maybe he posts "across the hall," I don't know). He said last year that he was tired of the negativity on the Forum and didn't feel that he had anything to contribute.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=637994&postcount=8

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=638093&postcount=21

He still comes in from time to time (if you look at the "who's logged in" you'll see his handle there occasionally) but doesn't post anymore. I wish he would, I always enjoyed his input.


William

PS:I also miss Munson and wish the drunk would post more often. Many folks are missed, but it is what it is. There's still great folk here now as well. I even don't mind the Squirrel so much...only a little!! :p

[johnnymossville]

you mean you guys aren't all college professors? :D

[fiamme red]

PS:I also miss Munson and wish the drunk would post more often.Don't forget BigMac. :)

[Ray]

you mean you guys aren't all college professors? :D
I think you just confuse us liberals with college professors because, you know, we all seem so wicked smaaaaaht! :cool:

Yeah, that must be it.

-Ray

[palincss]

But they're all anarchists, no?

That's pretty funny: an anarchist federal administrative law judge. Actually, two of them, in the same office. BTW - the web developer (me) was a career federal employee also. This is hardly the stuff of which "anarchists" are made.

[goonster]

[I] was a career federal employee
Oh, well, then we have to change the stereotype to government beaurocrat boob. There are people in Nashville burning you in effigy as we speak.

[William]

That's pretty funny: an anarchist federal administrative law judge. Actually, two of them, in the same office. BTW - the web developer (me) was a career federal employee also. This is hardly the stuff of which "anarchists" are made.

http://assets.sbnation.com/imported_assets/81096/nihilists_medium.jpg

[goonster]

http://assets.sbnation.com/imported_assets/81096/nihilists_medium.jpg
They are nihilists. It's exhausting. Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism . . . at least it's an ethos.

[billrick]

That's pretty funny: an anarchist federal administrative law judge. Actually, two of them, in the same office. BTW - the web developer (me) was a career federal employee also. This is hardly the stuff of which "anarchists" are made.

Wow, this is freaky. I'm a Rivendell-Reader-reading GS-930 series fed myself. I ride a Hampsten now, but it is basically a ti Riv. And I have a custom Riv in my future. So this sampling shows we are as far from anarchists as you can get.

:)

[djg]

While I suppose U.S. bicyclists still include a significant percentage who ride primarily for recreation/exercise, there is a growing number of people who use the bike as a primary mode of transportation.

Sachs bikes are great for racing and fun riding. They are hardly optimal for getting to work, goind around town and attending to errands.

Seems to me both types of bikes have their place.

I've never owned one of Richard's bikes but I like a road bike for riding to work -- sometimes go for the road bike and sometimes cross. I'm not sure what "hardly optimal" means -- sorta depends what types of loads you want to carry over what distances, personal preference, and whatever.

I don't own a Riv -- I'm a grouch and I'm getting on a bit, but I'm not a retro-grouch. Still, it's all good -- if some folks like 'em and some folks love 'em it's just fine by me.

[Joellogicman]

I'm not sure what "hardly optimal" means -- sorta depends what types of loads you want to carry over what distances, personal preference, and whatever.

By optimal I am saying someone who as I - owns no car and uses the bike as a primary mode of transit - or at least does significant errand runs on the bike.

The condition of the streets the rider frequents also has a lot to do with optimal. I ride my commuter mainly on Chicago streets, which the weather and city and state budgetary concerns leave pot hole scarred.

Add this up and optimal means a bike that can take a regular beating, provide some level of comfort, and regular accommodate loads that may be odd size at time - I like watermelon in the summer - have even been lashed dry cleaning on the side rack - and frequently well over 15 pounds. The bike needs a kick stand so it can be locked up wherever is handy without falling down. An upright position helps keep my line of vision where it is easiest to spot kamikaze drivers - and the occassional fixed gear youth with no concern for his or my life. As I cannot change every where I go - and don't want to wear riding clothes every where I go - I need platform pedals and a chain guard to accommodate street shoes and normal cut wool (linen in the summer) trousers.

If I did not have my custom, I can think of several Rivendells, Hilsen, Bombadil, or Atlantis, that would be optimal for my needs.

On the other hand, I know people who ride race geometry bikes - several carbon even - to work nearly every day along Chicago's butter smooth lake front path. Their home and offices are close to the path, minimizing time on the streets. They own cars and use them to run errands, go out on the town, and fetch groceries. Most are members of downtown athletic clubs where they can shower and change from cycling clothes to work clothes before heading to the office. Other than commuting, their primary cycling activity is recreational riding and amateur competitions.

For their purposes, the race geometry is fine.

Acknowledging different bikes work best in different conditions is the point I mean to be making here.

[William]

Don't forget BigMac. :)


Of course, the quintessential BigMac!! :cool: :beer:



William

[gemship]

this is sort of nonrelated. Does anyone use a two along trailer like those ones to bring the kids with you on a ride for hauling stuff?

[Ken Robb]

I have ridden two Sachs bikes and they both rode great. Only one was my size. It belonged to DBRK at the time. It was a cross bike. I rode it on gravel paths and paved roads and it encouraged me to push as hard as I could go.

Douglas offered it for sale and I was sorely tempted but Richie built it as a real race bike so it had no mounts for water bottles. It had the tri-racer dual plastic bottle holsters behind the saddle when I rode it. Good enough for a loaner but not for a keeper. I talked to JB about adding bosses for bottle mounts but the repainting cost killed that idea.

In my opinion a Sachs race bike seems to have geos toward the more stable end of race bike design or, dare I say it, closer to a Riv than many other race bikes would be. I think some might say they are closer to classic race bikes of 30 years ago.

My Kirk Terraplane was similar.

[fourflys]

In my opinion a Sachs race bike seems to have geos toward the more stable end of race bike design or, dare I say it, closer to a Riv than many other race bikes would be. I think some might say they are closer to classic race bikes of 30 years ago.


now you've done it.... compared a Sachs to a Riv, oh man it's gonna get ugly! :D

[AndrewS]

Since it seems to be germane, I'll tell you about commuting on a regular old road bike:

I have clip in pedal adapters that make the Look pedals on all my road bikes comfortable with Tevas AND have a toe strap for security in the rain. I usually have a back pack on, so that's where "loads" go, but if I'm doing a week's grocery shopping I bring a surplus ALICE pack and can take about 40 lbs. comfortably. From the tops I have no trouble seeing in any direction. Brakes are right near by. I once went right over a curb (the bad way) with 20c tires. No damage, no flat, stayed upright. My 23c Contis don't seem to fuss over train tracks or winter cracks. I don't have a kickstand because it's redundant with lock. I have a removable fender that quickly installs on the post and is pretty effective - if it's wet enough that it's not I'm probably getting wet from above, too.

I have found that the quick acceleration, nimble handling and good braking of a very light bike makes dodging traffic more desirable than my mountain bike. The Raleigh Technium road is mainly for winter, and despite the short reach brakes it takes a Kenda Kwik cyclocross tire for snow.

That's how I "manage".

[gdw]

Your credibility takes a big hit when you claim to be able to carry 40 pounds in an Alice pack "comfortably". :D

[fourflys]

Andrew,
If that works for you, then that's awesome... We do what we have to do to ride/have what we want... Your plan sounds great to me...

For others, some like a heavier, more utilitarian bike that might be ready to go right out the door without having to put on pedal adaptors and use a backpack (I LOATHE a backpack in San Diego... HOT!). I dare say most that own a Riv also own another bike if they do faster, group rides so they have another option...

The bottom line is there are thousands of different bikes out there and everyone has a different idea about what makes one good. I hope that you can take away from this discussion that some people (like Grant P) like a certain type and likes to poke the bear at times... As others have said, you have to meet Grant to understand his sense of humor/irony...

BTW- I used to have a Riv, but sold it because it was too heavy/utilitarian and didn't meet my needs....

Chris

[Frankwurst]

Acknowledging different bikes work best in different conditions is the point I mean to be making here.

A good point indeed. I have a Cannondale Red Shred mountain bike I bought new in 1989/90. Aluminum frame, steel fork, 2 sets of eyelets front and back, a beast indeed. It has long since been changed into a bike that does just that. Works in the conditions it has been reconfigured for. Never have won a town line sprint on the damn thing though. :beer:

[Joellogicman]

I usually have a back pack on, so that's where "loads" go, but if I'm doing a week's grocery shopping I bring a surplus ALICE pack and can take about 40 lbs. comfortably.

Or up in the Northwest where it rarely gets all that hot.

I tried a Chrome pack for a while. In the winter here in Chicago, it is uncomfortable over a sport coat and jacket.

As soon as the temperature rises anywhere above 70 here in Chicago the humidity follows. Any ride beyond a few blocks or so, and the sealed spot between back and pack becomes one sweaty mess.

Not a problem if you are going from bike to shower, I suppose. But a real pain if you are going from bike to office or making multiple spots on the way home - and are going places where you prefer not to look like a vagabond.

[Joellogicman]

A good point indeed. I have a Cannondale Red Shred mountain bike I bought new in 1989/90. Aluminum frame, steel fork, 2 sets of eyelets front and back, a beast indeed.

Kind of sad Cannondale is nothing more than a brand name for a company that owns a lot of other once proud names. Roll with the times I guess.

[AndrewS]

Cannondales make awesome commuting bikes: The 3 inch downtubes are terrific fenders.

[JeffS]

That's a very nice bike. But I was referring to road bikes that you can buy in your LBS (not including Rivendell imitators like Surly, Soma, Salsa, etc.).


I have a really hard time believing that anyone at QBP (surly/salsa) has drawn inspiration from Rivendell. Yes, I have seen Surlys built up in a "rivendell style", but nothing coming from the factory itself.

Soma? Well, they make some frames with lugs, but so do tons of custom builders. Are all lugged framebuilders imitating Grant?

I'm looking across the room at my Salsa Casseroll and I don't see any GP influence. Maybe the handlebars, sitting considerably lower than the saddle, are blinding me :cool:

[Ray]

I have a really hard time believing that anyone at QBP (surly/salsa) has drawn inspiration from Rivendell. Yes, I have seen Surlys built up in a "rivendell style", but nothing coming from the factory itself.

Soma? Well, they make some frames with lugs, but so do tons of custom builders. Are all lugged framebuilders imitating Grant?

I'm looking across the room at my Salsa Casseroll and I don't see any GP influence. Maybe the handlebars, sitting considerably lower than the saddle, are blinding me :cool:
Its not the lugs, its the basic design philosophy of the bikes. And I'm not talking about the aesthetics - Grant has his strong preferences there too, but that's not where his influence has been felt.

When I was first looking at bikes in the mid-90s, nobody was making much between racing geometry road bikes and full-on loaded touring bikes. It was tough to find bikes for a "French Fit" position, where everything is rotated back around the bottom bracket, allowing for great handling with a seat that's further back and a bit lower and handlebars that are further back and a bit higher. You need a somewhat longer chainstay and shorter front center for bikes set up like that to handle well. It was tough to find "standard" reach brakes (now considered long reach) - Shimano stopped making them altogether for a few years, so NOS was all that was out there. You couldn't find road bikes with decent fender clearance (I think there were a few small British makers doing these, but you had to have them imported, nobody was selling them here). And lugs were disappearing among production bikes, but there were still some out there - a lot more than today. The big manufacturers weren't making compact cranks then either - everything was 130 bcd except Grant was selling NOS Ritchey cranks in a 110 bcd with the lowest Q factor of just about any crank ever.

I believe Grant actually talked Shimano into bringing back long reach brakes - some of his models that were designed for those had to go to cantis for a while because you couldn't get the brakes. Shimano brought those back and then slowly, more and more manufacturers started making more sport-touring bikes with longer stays and more clearance that accommodated a more laid back position with decent handling and could handle fenders. They started calling them "event" bikes, but basically there was a recognition that road bikes could sell to more than just racers and racer wannabes. So bikes with more comfortable positions started showing up. Oh sure, you could mess around with a race bike and set it up that way so the rider could sit more comfortably, but they'd handle like garbage with too much weight on the rear wheel and not enough on the front. This was a real positive change for a LOT of recreational riders without pretensions of being Lance. And then compact cranks re-emerged and are now damn near ubiquitous because not that many people really need or can take advantage of the gearing on a 130 or 135 bcd crank.

Grant and Riv didn't cause all of that to happen directly. But he was squawking about it for several years and doing his best to accommodate and even grow the market for that kind of gear before everybody else realized there might be money to be made there. So you can see his influence, if not direct causation, in all sorts of stuff commonly available today that wasn't then. He didn't INVENT any of it - it was all easily found in the '70s and '80s. He just helped bring it back for another generation of practical cyclists.

Your Casserole, btw, is a perfect example of the type of frame that nobody was making 10-15 years ago but damn near everyone is making now. You can give Grant credit for helping that along or not, but the chronology is pretty clear.

-Ray

[fiamme red]

Lots of randonneurs ride Rivs. Almost every Riv production model (except for the mixtes) has completed PBP.Paul Donaldson's randonneur bike is set up the way Grant would approve of, with Wald baskets, flat pedals, and kickstand.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=383310&postcount=15

http://www.picpile.net/ims/pic_264UD99M/23418.jpg

[fiamme red]

Grant and Riv didn't cause all of that to happen directly. But he was squawking about it for several years and doing his best to accommodate and even grow the market for that kind of gear before everybody else realized there might be money to be made there. So you can see his influence, if not direct causation, in all sorts of stuff commonly available today that wasn't then. He didn't INVENT any of it - it was all easily found in the '70s and '80s. He just helped bring it back for another generation of practical cyclists.

Your Casserole, btw, is a perfect example of the type of frame that nobody was making 10-15 years ago but damn near everyone is making now. You can give Grant credit for helping that along or not, but the chronology is pretty clear.Very well said!

[Joellogicman]

I have a really hard time believing that anyone at QBP (surly/salsa) has drawn inspiration from Rivendell. Yes, I have seen Surlys built up in a "rivendell style", but nothing coming from the factory itself.

Soma? Well, they make some frames with lugs, but so do tons of custom builders. Are all lugged framebuilders imitating Grant?

I'm looking across the room at my Salsa Casseroll and I don't see any GP influence. Maybe the handlebars, sitting considerably lower than the saddle, are blinding me :cool:

GP has no influence on them.

http://somafab.blogspot.com/2010/01/rivendell-collaborates-with-soma-on.html

Soma and Riv are joining together to produce a bike. In the blog entry, Soma specifically mentions a long standing admiration for GP.

In the mid-90s if you were not buying pure race geometry or an all out mountain bike, your choice was a hybrid or department store special.

Surly, Soma, Olaf, Cielo, etc. have all followed down a path Bridgestone then Riv blazed. As many others have said here, none of the design is stunning new technology. Rather GP and the newcomers saw that a valuable line of bike design was being cast aside for no good reason and brought it back to fore.

GP is not the only movement leader. Peter John White, Sheldon Brown, and, as noted else where Mike Barry (who also made wonderful race bikes) promoted or made practical bikes for getting around rather than competing.

[goonster]

I'm looking across the room at my Salsa Casseroll and I don't see any GP influence.
If you had tried to buy that kind of bike in 2000, you would.

[veloduffer]

GP is not the only movement leader. Peter John White, Sheldon Brown, and, as noted else where Mike Barry (who also made wonderful race bikes) promoted or made practical bikes for getting around rather than competing.

Good points. GP, through Bridgestone and later Riv, was one of the few proponents of making bikes that you could not only race but also put wider tires for other applications (eg Bridgestone RB-1). The famous Bridgestone XO-1 was one of the popular do-all type of bikes.

Likewise, you can really point to the popularity of fixed gear bikes to Sheldon.

[JeffS]

Your Casserole, btw, is a perfect example of the type of frame that nobody was making 10-15 years ago but damn near everyone is making now. You can give Grant credit for helping that along or not, but the chronology is pretty clear.

-Ray


Sometimes it's easy to see what you set out to find.


If he did turn out to be such a source of inspiration to an entire industry it only serves to demonstrate how much his fringe agenda has negatively impacted his business. I suppose that's been a conscious decision for him though.


And for the record, I am in no way anti-Rivendell, I just find his followers tiring at times. I have the same reaction to hardcore Surly fans.

[AndrewS]

I think it's strange some of you are trying to find a single source for todays trends. Several of my friends have "fast hybrids", which feature more road bike like geometry and lower weight, but with cantis.

You also have all the single speeds that didn't come from Sheldon Brown - they came from the bike messenger cult - which is often a super tight track bike.

And you have the styles based on the old Bridgestone XO - which is actually how I've seen most of the Surly's around here set up: 26" wheels and mustache bars.

Depending on how you want to score it, there are now many different "fish nor fowl" styles of road oriented utility bike out there. I doubt GP would approve of the ones that look like track pursuit bikes despite the thick tires.

All of these different styles came as a confluence of many different trends, and they're codependant because of the increased availability of things like thicker tires, etc. But I think a lot of what's popular right now is also due to recycling old road frames (many with originally 27" wheels) into 700c single speeds - a largely Emo trend inspired by messengers' track bikes.

Bridgestone and later Riv. were influential in this process, but so was the ubiquitous hybrid and the attractive availability of the cheap single speed frames from Soma, Surly and others.

[goonster]

If he did turn out to be such a source of inspiration to an entire industry it only serves to demonstrate how much his fringe agenda has negatively impacted his business.
I don't see it that way.

A lot of folks looked at his bikes and said, "I want one of those, but not at that price." Well, the free market does an excellent job of providing low-cost alternatives once the demand has been created.

Riv is not alone in this. How many MTB pioneers captured a market share commensurate with their contributions? Grant is different only because he never sold his company to Trek.

This dynamic is what pushed Grant to what you perceive as the "fringe". The Riv Reader fringe ravings from ten years ago (artisan builder lugged road bikes with 57mm brake reach and full fenders) are considered mainstream in forums like these today.

[Joellogicman]

I think it's strange some of you are trying to find a single source for todays trends. Several of my friends have "fast hybrids", which feature more road bike like geometry and lower weight, but with cantis.

You need to elaborate. Hybrids, at least as I understood the term when they were the rage in the mid-90s, were basically toned down mountain bikes with sometimes more comfortable saddles and handlebars.

Cantis have been used on road bikes far longer than side pulls. Side pulls became popular after big name racers began using them in the '70s.

You also have all the single speeds that didn't come from Sheldon Brown - they came from the bike messenger cult - which is often a super tight track bike.

I think you mean fixed gear, not single speed. No one says Sheldon Brown invented fixed gear. Track bikes have long been fixed gear. Nor would anyone suggest Sheldon was the first to use modify track bikes for road use.

Unlike most messengers, Sheldon Brown was an eloquent (and often quite amusing) communicator who happily shared his ideas on the internet. Much as GP, Peter White and others did for practical bikes, Sheldon brought to the general public what only a small group had found to be practical solutions.


Depending on how you want to score it, there are now many different "fish nor fowl" styles of road oriented utility bike out there. I doubt GP would approve of the ones that look like track pursuit bikes despite the thick tires.

He probably would not agree with the geometry, but the Quickbeam has been a very popular frame with fixed gear riders.

All of these different styles came as a confluence of many different trends, and they're codependant because of the increased availability of things like thicker tires, etc. But I think a lot of what's popular right now is also due to recycling old road frames (many with originally 27" wheels) into 700c single speeds - a largely Emo trend inspired by messengers' track bikes.

Bridgestone and later Riv. were influential in this process, but so was the ubiquitous hybrid and the attractive availability of the cheap single speed frames from Soma, Surly and others.

We seem to be coming to agreement. GP and others influenced and popularized trends which are becoming an important part of the cycling industry as it is today.

[Kirk Pacenti]

How many MTB pioneers captured a market share commensurate with their contributions?

Very true in the bicycle industry... and many others as well.

[goonster]

I think it's strange some of you are trying to find a single source for todays trends.
That's not what this is.

Some of us, who were there along they way, just think Grant deserves better than to have folks say "why does this fool offend me with his loopy ideas and stupid website?"

Same thing with Sheldon. If a kid in the Midwest saw a messenger in SF and wanted to be like him, he'd google "fixed gear" and go to Sheldon's site to figure out how to convert his bike. I remember when fixedgeargallery had six bikes on it. Sheldon was the only game in town.

[AndrewS]

Joel,

Overall, I don't think GPs influence would have amounted to all that much if a lot of other things hadn't happened at the same time.

And when I mentioned "single speed" for messenger bikes - I meant it. While the trend started with fixed gear track bikes, most of the imitators I've seen have a single brake and BMX freewheel. Same look, because it's fashion, but different end usage. Building or converting bikes to be single speeds is hugely trendy among college aged people.

Hybrids are at least 22 years old. They have independently developed and I've seen more than a couple that have grown increasingly "aggressive" in their geometry. There is nothing about their look or set up that should cause anyone to believe that randoneur bikes had anything to do with it. They, like the "flat bar road bike" are more the result of consumers shopping bike shops for "something like a hybrid, but faster and lighter". I think cheap Taiwanese aluminum and lightweight mountain parts caused these bikes to appear. Giant and Trek started making premium, lightweight hybrids 20 years ago - how long did it take for consumers to start putting road tires on them?

And all that's forgetting the cyclocross trend.


So I'd say GP has probably had influence in some regards to the way "utility bikes" have recently (re)appeared, but I think some of Surly and Soma's business could have popped up just from the influence of messenger bikes, mountain commuters and hybrids. GP no more caused those bikes to come to be than Mariposa caused Rivendell. This isn't a new cycling trend, like mountain bikes or even tri-bikes. It is a reshifting of a bunch of available technology that's made the availability of utility bike parts and the notion of it popular.

And in reference to something else you said earlier, do you really think that Soma, Surly, Riv, SE, etc. sold more frames together last year than Trek, Giant and Specialized sold road bikes???? The current sales of road race style bikes are enormous. Build your own specialty frames are never going to take a major chunk away from complete bikes. It might be a big trend, but it's still the fringe of total sales figures.

And it is a trend. After all the people who think they need a utility, randoneur, whatever bike are satisfied, we'll see how long these companies who've made it their bread and butter last. But I know I'll be able to buy a road bike 10 years from now.

[AndrewS]

BTW, I would think Shimano, who used to control the market with their "gruppo" sales concept would absolutely hate GP. His spec'ing of Bridgestone bikes directly led to the lawsuits that freed bicycle companies from using all Shimano equipped bikes. Those Ultegra bikes with 105 shifters, Tektro brakes and FSA cranks are his doing.

I'd be interested to find out that Shimano would listen to GP at all after that debacle.

[fourflys]

I'd be interested to find out that Shimano would listen to GP at all after that debacle.

well, as someone else mentioned, he singlehandedly got them to re-introduce long reach brakes....

[rugbysecondrow]

As I was marveling at how long this conversation has been going on, I thought I would pile on.

I am not certain what this discussion is actually about, but I think it relates to GPs influence on modern bikes and his relevance.

If that is the case, then I look at this like music. Is any one artist responsible for influencing another artist, or is the collective body of music itself that populates a common well? I think music, in addition to bikes, automotive inovation, clothing styles, can have people of prominance who help take strides rather than baby steps, but it is the collection of influence.

So yes, he is a prominant person who both collected from and and added to the well of knowledge. He does that now. Surly, Salsa and other do the same thing. You can argue to what extent he did it, but that is a arguement.

[AndrewS]

Or, he could be a little like Leibniz, Mendel and Tesla. Guys who had it right, but who's influence are hard to factor since their ideas weren't really noticed until after the fact.

GP is obviously an earlier player in this trend. But my point is that factoring his influence on part makers and the general public's tastes is virtually impossible. GP is not Gary Fisher, creating a new bike and style almost from scratch. He is a prophet of the current fashion, not its single source. That's like saying John the Baptist was the most influential person in Christianity.

[rugbysecondrow]

So I'd say GP has probably had influence in some regards to the way "utility bikes" have recently (re)appeared, but I think some of Surly and Soma's business could have popped up just from the influence of messenger bikes, mountain commuters and hybrids. GP no more caused those bikes to come to be than Mariposa caused Rivendell. This isn't a new cycling trend, like mountain bikes or even tri-bikes. It is a reshifting of a bunch of available technology that's made the availability of utility bike parts and the notion of it popular.

And in reference to something else you said earlier, do you really think that Soma, Surly, Riv, SE, etc. sold more frames together last year than Trek, Giant and Specialized sold road bikes???? The current sales of road race style bikes are enormous. Build your own specialty frames are never going to take a major chunk away from complete bikes. It might be a big trend, but it's still the fringe of total sales figures.



I know you can't track with quantitative certainty who's idea influenced whom, but what we can acknowledge are ideas that makes sense for some riders. GP has good ideas, but are they new? Is he being innovative or is he rehashing ideas from the past regarding riding (1940s - 1980s)? It seems he is taking ideas and making them better. I think that is also what Soma, Surly and others are doing. They are making them cheaper, making them available to the masses...a different kind of influence. One thing GPs bikes are not is available.

[rugbysecondrow]

Or, he could be a little like Leibniz, Mendel and Tesla. Guys who had it right, but who's influence are hard to factor since their ideas weren't really noticed until after the fact.

GP is obviously an earlier player in this trend. But my point is that factoring his influence on part makers and the general public's tastes is virtually impossible. GP is not Gary Fisher, creating a new bike and style almost from scratch. He is a prophet of the current fashion, not its single source. That's like saying John the Baptist was the most influential person in Christianity.

I disagree with with the statement that he is obviously an early player in the trend, but I agree with your other statements. He is a great contributor to the collective wealth of knowledge and probably gives more than he takes, but I am not certain if it is innovative.

[fiamme red]

I have a removable fender that quickly installs on the post and is pretty effective - if it's wet enough that it's not I'm probably getting wet from above, too.I use fenders not just to keep me dry, but to keep me clean. That's important to me, since I commute in the same pants that I wear at work.

[goonster]

I'd be interested to find out that Shimano would listen to GP at all after that debacle.
Well, Kozo Shimano certainly listened to Grant, and we know this because he gave a long interview for the Reader. However, Kozo left his position as president of Shimano NA a few years ago in a move that essentially means that fishing gear is a lot more important to Shimano than bike parts.

[goonster]

GP is not Gary Fisher, creating a new bike and style almost from scratch.
The old-timers disagree on who created the first MTB, but they agree that it wasn't Gary Fisher.

[AndrewS]

Sorry, that was supposed to be a "for example". I haven't studied mountain bike lore very closely.

[Joellogicman]

Overall, I don't think GPs influence would have amounted to all that much if a lot of other things hadn't happened at the same time.

Well yes. The bike business as a whole was ignoring a large segment of potential riders.

And when I mentioned "single speed" for messenger bikes - I meant it. While the trend started with fixed gear track bikes, most of the imitators I've seen have a single brake and BMX freewheel. Same look, because it's fashion, but different end usage. Building or converting bikes to be single speeds is hugely trendy among college aged people.

Single speed especially in flat urban areas makes a lot of sense. I know there is a dedicated group of people who looove their fixies on the road. It is a format with limited attraction to most riders.

Hybrids are at least 22 years old. They have independently developed and I've seen more than a couple that have grown increasingly "aggressive" in their geometry. There is nothing about their look or set up that should cause anyone to believe that randoneur bikes had anything to do with it. They, like the "flat bar road bike" are more the result of consumers shopping bike shops for "something like a hybrid, but faster and lighter". I think cheap Taiwanese aluminum and lightweight mountain parts caused these bikes to appear. Giant and Trek started making premium, lightweight hybrids 20 years ago - how long did it take for consumers to start putting road tires on them?

I don't think anything I said would suggest I think that hybrids are rando type bikes. The early hybrids were nothing more than mountain bikes with skinny tires. Most hybrid bikes were so emminently disposable they fed the trend that GP and others championed.

And in reference to something else you said earlier, do you really think that Soma, Surly, Riv, SE, etc. sold more frames together last year than Trek, Giant and Specialized sold road bikes???? The current sales of road race style bikes are enormous. Build your own specialty frames are never going to take a major chunk away from complete bikes. It might be a big trend, but it's still the fringe of total sales figures.

I don't think I said the companies you mention outsell Trek and the Taiwan conglomerates. However, you will note that all the big companies have offerings that are Riv/Soma/Surly like. (n.b.: Surly as an off shoot of QBP is pretty big time corporate. No matter what their very successful marketing suggests.

And it is a trend. After all the people who think they need a utility, randoneur, whatever bike are satisfied, we'll see how long these companies who've made it their bread and butter last. But I know I'll be able to buy a road bike 10 years from now.

Yeah, but if you do not have companies like Riv, Soma or Surley around you may not necessarily like the pickings.

[rugbysecondrow]

Just some photos from the collective...1910, 1940, 1970 Raleigh.

[AndrewS]

Joel,

You asked me to eloborate on what I meant by "fast hybrids". I did: Evolved hybrids that weren't influenced as much by older trends, like rando, as much as available materials. No one needed outside influence to figure out that a hybrid could be more nimble.

You also corrected me about fixies vs. single speeds - so I demonstrated how their popularity are actually the result of the same current fashion. A fashion that accounts for probably the lion's share of Surly frames sold.


My observation about units sold was simply to remind everyone that, no matter how practical they might seem, Riv and others are a fashion. It is fashionable to make much of your utility bike. They are the hollow handled survival knives of the bike world - good for everything! But only a few knife companies make one anymore and no one seems too upset.

Hybrids, funny bikes and 29ers are also fashion. It takes a long time to see if a fashion becomes an institution. If there isn't a Rivendell 10 years from now it will be because there's something else for those "in the know" to hang their hats on. Maybe the re-introduction of the "English Racer".

What got my goat with GP from the beginning was his statement, as fact, that road bikes have too short chain stays for descents. Yet those stays are not fashion - road bicycle chain stay length has been stable for more than 30 years! The super compact stay bikes have come and gone and road geometry is still pretty much what it was in 1975. Yet all those bikes are built wrong! I'll keep that in mind next time I take my hands off the bars at 40mph.

[bfd]

Huh? This isn't relevant to my post. GP doesn't slam the application of carbon for touring bikes, he denigrates carbon's use in any bike.

My gripe with GP is that he lies about carbon frames in an attempt to promote his preferred frame material.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2005/pages/13.html

[billrick]

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2005/pages/13.html


Good stuff! Alternate universe?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2005/images/13.jpg

[rnhood]

Joel,
What got my goat with GP from the beginning was his statement, as fact, that road bikes have too short chain stays for descents. Yet those stays are not fashion - road bicycle chain stay length has been stable for more than 30 years! The super compact stay bikes have come and gone and road geometry is still pretty much what it was in 1975. Yet all those bikes are built wrong! I'll keep that in mind next time I take my hands off the bars at 40mph.

I don't know about that. Seems to me that I remember chain stays typically 42'ish, + or -. Today we see 40.8, + or -. So I think CS length, on average with race bikes, has lost about a cm or so over the last 30 years. This can lead to more skiddish behavior on fast descents with less that perfect pavement especially with super stiff frames like we see today. Most top notch bikes today have done excellent jobs in taking this into account in the frame design to mitigate the effects of short CS on super stiff bikes. Of course if you only descend on nice even smooth pavement, its not an issue.

Having said that, I wasn't into aggressive race bikes back in the 60's and 70's so, I could be wrong on the typical CS length of race bikes back then. But I don't think so.

[Ahneida Ride]

WOW ...

16 pages and going strong !!!! I'd say Grant is doing well.

Perhaps I should make some controversial statement about handlebar tape!

:rolleyes: :beer:

[Ray]

I remember when fixedgeargallery had six bikes on it.
Apropos of nothing other than being socked in by the snow and just seeing this post, I was #3 on the Fixed Gear Gallery. Out of, holy crap, nearly 11,000 of 'em now! I have a couple of other bikes on there later, but that was my funky old fixie that I started riding in '98 or so.

-Ray

[rasterdogs]

Joel,

TdF bikes are standard racing bikes, like most of us log 1000s of miles on every year. I don't have a support crew, yet am able to ride one comfortably for 7 hours. It doesn't suddenly become uncomfortable because I'm riding to work rather than for pleasure. Get it? Racing bikes are not, by their nature, uncomfortable.

Racing bikes are not designed for loaded touring. Neither are most Rivendells.


I'm of the opinion that Rivendell sells complicated solutions to phantom problems by demonizing a type of bike that actually has amazing utility and efficiency. You can put a bell, fenders, light racks, lights, squishier tires on a road bike.

The current limit for road bikes seems to be 28c tire (which is fairly fat). GP says that isn't nearly big enough. If road bikes could accommodate 35c tires they probably still wouldn't be big enough either, because how are you going to sell specialty frames if you concede that a regular road bike can do the job?

I'm not saying that a racing bike is the solution for every problem, but Rivendells seem to be solutions for the most subtle of problems.

Does anyone here actually feel that their road bike seat stays are too short for fast descents??????? GP says they are.

I'm not sure if it passes muster as a 'TDF racing bike' but I ride a Trek Madone. I also ride a Riv Custom with Jack Brown 33 mm tires.
I enjoy both bikes but the Riv is my choice for all day rides as it is more comfortable than the Madone and not appreciably slower. Oh yeah,
descending on the Trek is fine but the Riv works better in that regard for me.

JimD

[Charles M]

WOW ...

16 pages and going strong !!!! I'd say Grant is doing well.

Perhaps I should make some controversial statement about handlebar tape!

:rolleyes: :beer:


No Ray, Two things you have wrong.


First, you actually have a better product...

And Rivs site doesnt just have controversy, there's some straight up bull***** in there too...



No way you get 16 pages of perpetuity by simply being very good and edgy...

[rasterdogs]

No Ray, Two things you have wrong.


First, you actually have a better product...

And Rivs site doesnt just have controversy, there's some straight up bull***** in there too...



No way you get 16 pages of perpetuity by simply being very good and edgy...

Good grief, something/someone is WRONG on the internets?
This is hard to believe.

-JimD

[Frankwurst]

Good grief, something/someone is WRONG on the internets?
This is hard to believe.

-JimD

Cabin Fever. Pure entertainment. :beer:

[flickwet]

niche bikes for niche people engaged on a niche forum, how niche of you Mr Niche, that which doesn't kill you fits right in this little box right here. Its horses for courses and GP is very cool in my book, no I don't own one but we do have an old RB-1, and those old ads with Pineapple Bob let old folks like me say things like Pneapple Bob, and I love those old ads and I still take to heart the gist of it all...Have fun riding a bicycle, and buy a bicycle that is fun to ride.

[mtnbke]

Rivendell and the closed minded fools who validate themselves by basing their cycling experience on whatever the BOBish community dictates make me laugh...

The fact of the matter is that aside from their paint, and high prices a modern Riv is nowhere near the bicycle that a high end early 80s Japanese bike is (and this by Grant's own admission in terms of the high-yen peak of Japanese craftsmanship). Yup, you read that right. Any high zoot early 80s Nishiki, Panasonic, etc. that you can pick up on Craigslist for less than $200 will ABSOLUTELY compare to any modern Riv.

Throw in a decent $400-600 budget for a Velocolour repaint and custom head badge and you've got a gorgeous steel bike with amazing paint, detailed lugs, and its going to be better made than current Rivs. You can't begin to compare the craftsmanship of early 80s Japanese components and frames to the stuff they throw out today trying to compete with low end Taiwanese and Chinese stuff...

That being said, the thing that really cracks me up about the whole Riv and BOBish movement is how completely off the mark they are.

A decade before Grant was trying to use his connections in the Japanese bicycle industry to start his own business an American company was making sensible bikes with wide tires, drop bars, Brooks saddles, and touring gearing that made sense in the real world.

Long before Cannondale made road race bikes, before they made their first mountain bike, before they made apparel, trailers, the BB30, the Magic Motorcycle crankset, before Missy Giove & Tinker Juarez, and long before the Headshok or Lefty, the only bicycles Cannondale made were 'touring' frames that were sized by getting the largest bike you could "uncomfortably" stand over.

I have an '86 Cannondale ST800. Its a 27" frame (68.5cm c-t, and 73cm to top of seat collar). The saddle is the same height as the bars:

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/cannondale/catalog1986/pdf/1986cannondalecat%20-%200021.pdf

It came stock with:

High Rise stem
Fenders
Wide tires
Brooks Professional Saddle
American Classic Seatpost
Suntour Superbe Pro platform pedals w/Clips and nice brown leather straps
Sugino AT touring triple crank w/Granny 48/44/28 "half-step" gearing
Suntour Accushift Barcons (friction OR indexing)
Suntour Superbe Pro long cage touring rear derailleur (apparently a C'dale exclusive)
Suntour Superbe front triple derailleur
Six speed freewheel
Nitto Randonneur handlebars (flare out)

The bike came stock with front and rear racks that were factory sprayed to match the frame paint. Not only that but it also came with three water bottle cages also factory sprayed to match frame/racks.

Its not that I disagree with the Riv crowd, or the BOBish cult, its that they are just so completely ignorant of the alternatives as they flock to ridiculously overpriced boat anchor Rivs and Surleys.

Any ST series Cannondale used the SAME frame. The only difference was the components.

You can find these old C'dales for a song on craigslist. Not only are they considerably lighter than any Riv, but they are also much faster due to being a much more efficient frame, and they are incomparably stronger than a lugged steel frame.

Anyone interested in looking through the old vintage Cannondale offerings here is a link:

http://www.vintagecannondale.com/catalog.html

Anyone interested in buying a Riv, just know you bought a bike that is heavier, slower, and weaker than a comparable "Made in the USA" bike from the pinnacle of the US produced bicycle industry. That it came stock equipped as Rivendell would only catch on a decade or so later, is only bonus.

I don't care what the cult, I don't like communities of people that can't think for themselves, or think critically for that matter. The BOBish community is about the most closed minded community I've ever observed. The posts to the effect of "Is this BOBish" just crack me up. They don't know why something is BOBish, or have the least concept of why community preferences are the way they are, but they just want something that is acceptable in terms of community doctrine.

I just call 'em sheep...

[Ray]

Its not that I disagree with the Riv crowd, or the BOBish cult, its that they are just so completely ignorant of the alternatives as they flock to ridiculously overpriced boat anchor Rivs and Surleys.
Might I just reiterate an earlier suggestion that you look long and hard at not buying one if you don't like it.

-Ray

[paczki]

That Cannondale is cool.

[Ken Robb]

Hey MTNBKE--All I can say to you is "BAA". :)

[goonster]

You can find these old C'dales for a song on craigslist. Not only are they considerably lighter than any Riv, but they are also much faster due to being a much more efficient frame, and they are incomparably stronger than a lugged steel frame.
I LOL'd. :beer:

Please do expound on what it means to be a "much more efficient frame". That's a good one!

This business about C'dale being "incomparably stronger" is another doozy. We can argue about what "strong" means, but perhaps someone who handled Cannondale frame warranties in that era can chime in.

So, essentially your argument is that BOBers (who, above almost all else, celebrate the reuse of practical older bikes) are closed-minded morons for not realizing their every cycling need could be covered by an old C'dale. :rolleyes:

I've got nothing against Cannondales. I own a Cannondale. I'm sad that they no longer make frames in PA. They deserve credit for making touring bikes and spec'ing them with Brooks saddles and bar-cons well into the STI era. But your assessment of the BOB scene and Riv customers is shallow and lacks insight and perspective.

[fiamme red]

Long before Cannondale made road race bikes, before they made their first mountain bike, before they made apparel, trailers, the BB30, the Magic Motorcycle crankset, before Missy Giove & Tinker Juarez, and long before the Headshok or Lefty, the only bicycles Cannondale made were 'touring' frames that were sized by getting the largest bike you could "uncomfortably" stand over.Your rant is so wrong on so many things. I don't really care to correct each of your errors, but I'll just point out that the first product Cannondale ever made was a trailer called the "Bugger," over a decade before they started making bicycles.

http://www.mombat.org/Cannondale.htm

1971
Joe Montgomery starts Cannondale at the Cannondale train station in Wilton, Connecticut. The company's initial product is the Bugger, the world's first bicycle-towed trailer. A rolling backpack, the Bugger rides on an angle (not unlike the pack it replaces) and transfers all excess weight directly to the road by its own tires. No weight is added to the bicycle itself.

[AndrewS]

Those first gen Cannondales were ridiculously stiff - and uncomfortable for longer rides. Maybe big tires were a way to handle the pounding.

I had heard that they rode well fully loaded - again due to the stiffness.

I don't think Rivendell would claim to be doing anything entirely new or out of the box. They are just presenting it in a different fashion.

I do think that saying '80s Japanese frames are superior to the Waterford produced Riv frames lacks logic or maybe perspective. I did just get an old Fuji lugged frame with I would much rather have than a Surly tig'd bike, but that's a very different comparison.

[retrogrouchy]

Reading this thread has perhaps given me the most amusement I've had in months (OK, I don't get out all that much, I admit, but it's Winter, and I'm a noob here...). That said, there are also a lot of thoughtful posts herein as well. Merci beaucoup. :D

I'm going to get an old C'Dale frame now, and outfit it with as many 1980s USA-made CNC-ed components as possible. Then I'll make sure my life insurance is fully paid-up before I head out on my first long ride....

[don compton]

I guess you won't buy from a bike shop that continually slams steel as a material then, like a couple do around here. 'Soft, boat anchor, rusts, gets vague over time'...all which is utter crappola, so they can sell ya their latest trekspecializedgiantfeltetc plastic wonder.
great call.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=AndrewS]Joel,

"And in reference to something else you said earlier, do you really think that Soma, Surly, Riv, SE, etc. sold more frames together last year than Trek, Giant and Specialized sold road bikes???? The current sales of road race style bikes are enormous."

Hardly enormous. Altho 'better', bike sales are still pretty flat, have been for a long time. Golf is growing much faster than cycling. More road, less other types, like MTBs...total is modestly up.

[bicycletricycle]

i like my rivendell alot, im 6 foot 3 and 200 pounds and it is not flexy. it is well mannered and comfortable to ride. it is not as light as a road racer but it is not a road racer. Grant can sound a little crazy sometimes but so what. The bikes are nice.

[veloduffer]

Altho 'better', bike sales are still pretty flat, have been for a long time. Golf is growing much faster than cycling. More road, less other types, like MTBs...total is modestly up.

Golf has been flat for years - at least nationally. While lots of people start golf, just as many drop out due to time constraints and money. And not that many beginners stick with it - very hard game to get descent at.

Lance's TdF wins helped with road bike sales vs mtb. Road cycling is the new golf.