Mavic Cosmic Carbones v. Zipp 303

[drbob]

I've got a 100 mile race coming up, flat except for one large hill (bridge). I've got both wheelsets, which one should I use? My thinking is that the Mavics are faster but the Zipps will be more comfortable. Any thoughts?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . want to win the race, or do you want to be a comfortable loser? . . .

BBDave

[jerk]

cosmics all the way. how can a wheel be comfortable? maybe you have bad tires on your cosmics or too much air in them.
jerk

[zap]

I have both too. For your flat ride, Cosmics all the way.

So a bridge in FL is considered a big hill :rolleyes:

[Jeff N.]

Mavics. Sell the Zipps. Jeff N.

[EdK]

Carbones, no doubt I second sell th Zipps, buy a new set of Carbones......

[Spicoli]

Hey, Bob

I have to agree w/everyone with if it is flat go with the deeper wheelset. Also whats with all the Zipp bashing? Give me a few climbs and I am going with the 303's, give a race That has a good chance of coming down to a sprint and I am going 303's, For that matter any race I know there is going to be alot quick accelerations and I am going 303's. Whats the deal with the Zipp hatred, I know I am trying to sell a pair but thats because I have too many Zipp wheelsets that I am more than happy with and would not trade for any other wheelset oout there. Just curious?
Jeff :no: :confused:

[madbiker]

I too have had great experiences with zipp wheels, and so have some of my riding partners. The are lighter than the carbones by a over a pound!! That is pretty significant. And its not like they are breaking. They are actually pretty damn tough.
Mavic gets a lot of votes because a lot of pros use them through sponsorship. I believe CSC and Phonak now use Zipp, no? Not that it matters, because again its sponsorship...

[madbiker]

I've got a 100 mile race coming up, flat except for one large hill (bridge). I've got both wheelsets, which one should I use? My thinking is that the Mavics are faster but the Zipps will be more comfortable. Any thoughts?

If it is a road race, and not some kind of century ride or TT, I'd go with the 303's. You'll be drafting in a pack most of the time, and te lighter wheels will be etter for the climb and the final sprint.

[chrisroph]

Because the jerk's got them all hypnotized. Zipps rock and can be found hardly ridden on the used market for the price of 2 or 3 dugasts.

[zap]

madbiker-more like two pounds heavier!

I have to agree that zipps are pretty tough. We crashed on our tandem when we had a Zipp up front. With carbon hubs! With the wheel cocked full sideways (saved me from getting more road rash) the wheel stayed true. The only problem was that a small section on the clincher part got a bit of road rash too! But sandpaper took care of that.

[EdK]

Hardly ridden on the used market, hmmmmmmm. We have had this discussion Zipps vs. anything in the past. Like many products some just don't live up to the hype. Zipp has a really great maketing team and are spending a small fortune on pro team sponsorship. As far as Carbones go at anything over 25mph (race pace) they hold momentum llike no other wheel out there and every race I have done finishing in a bunch sprint was faster than that. Jerk tells it like it is. If you have never used Carbones......... too bad. Smoother and Faster!

[bostondrunk]

Hardly ridden on the used market, hmmmmmmm. We have had this discussion Zipps vs. anything in the past. Like many products some just don't live up to the hype. Zipp has a really great maketing team and are spending a small fortune on pro team sponsorship. As far as Carbones go at anything over 25mph (race pace) they hold momentum llike no other wheel out there and every race I have done finishing in a bunch sprint was faster than that. Jerk tells it like it is. If you have never used Carbones......... too bad. Smoother and Faster!

Hold momentum???? Isn't this the old flywheel effect arguement? If this were valid, why isn't everyone using rims that weigh 5 pounds???
Carbones are simply marketed better because of sponsorship.
Oh, and neither wheel is gonna help much if you have your bars at saddle height and are sitting up into the wind...

[EdK]

I'm not going to argue about momentum too tired at this point. If you have negative things to say about Carbones you clearly have never raced them. 1lb 2lb 5lb whatever. Flat or rolling roadrace or crit Carbones are faster. Marketed better???? Whatever

[Spicoli]

NO WAY!!! If you really want to get a good argument going lets throw 404's into the mix? They are, just as if not more aero and still two pounds lighter. In referance to sprinting, the most important aspect is snapp. You can have a top speed of sixty but if you cant pop someone off your wheel your just giving him a great leadout. "OH but Petacci uses Carbones" Yes he does but if he fumbles his leadout train he cant hit his freakish top end and usually someone with no team support or freak top end, but a heck of alot of quick accelaration pips him (McEwen/Rodriguez) Who by the way are probably on some twenty year old design Ambrosio F20 which has peanuts in the rotational weight dept. adding to the ability to jump quickly. I am also sure that Mavic would not be trying so hard lighten up there Carbones if they did not fear what others like Zipp where producing. 2000gr. vs. 1200gr. give or take and in the case of a 404 aero is negated. Just becxause the little American company is busting its a$$ to get a peice of a market that has been dominated by Mavic you cannot hold that against them "Spending a fortune" sponsoring teams like CSC, and Phonak Who had U.S. riders bringing with them what they know is a great product. :argue:

[bostondrunk]

I'm not going to argue about momentum too tired at this point. If you have negative things to say about Carbones you clearly have never raced them. 1lb 2lb 5lb whatever. Flat or rolling roadrace or crit Carbones are faster. Marketed better???? Whatever

You have science to back this up???
Haven't you idiots learned that if a product were really -that- much better, then every pro would use them and re-label them to whoever their sponsor is?

Bad to say about them? Well, nothing horrible, just that they weigh too much, and are basically a fairing glued to a rim, instead of a one piece rim like the Zipps. So given the practically same rim depth, how is a carbone faster than a 404???
Marketed better? Whatever?? Yes, marketed better, as in they pay a lot of pro teams to use them. What exactly don't you understand about that??
I think it is about time 93legendti stepped into this arguement.

[bostondrunk]

Regarding the flywheel/momentum garbage....
To keep a bicycle wheel rolling, you are constantly accelerating it (without really realizing it). Otherwise you would never need to pedal. When you start from a stop, a heavier wheel is harder to accelerate. When at speed, you are still having to put out more energy to move the heavier wheel, but it isn't nearly as noticeable because the actual acceleration is smalllllllll. But if there were really a flywheel effect, then you would be able to stop pedalling when at speed. However, wind, road friction, etc. requires you to constantly push the wheel.
Anyone feel like offering a scientific version of the above?

It boils down to which companies graphics get you off, $$$, etc. since you don't spend much time accelerating from a stop.

[Spicoli]

I am not going to bash Carbones, I am sure that when your riding by yourself, not having to cover any jumps, breaks or anything that requires a change of pace they must feel great, so does a disc for that matter. But the reality of it is whether you notice it or not, in bicycle racing your are doing 20mph one second and two seconds later your doing 40mph and whether you know it or not you have to wind up your wheels. That being said, I would rather wind up 1200gr. versus 2000gr. anyday, especially when in a race situation your probably going to have to put out quite a few efforts just keep pace. Weight is weight there is no hiding from it and if you have two wheels just as aero as one another I am going with the lighter one. I can honestly say that they are the only piece of equipment that I have ever mounted to my bikes that actually made me noticably faster were wheels made by Zipp.

[bostondrunk]

Don't argue with me Spicoli!!!!!!!!...........er.........nevermind...<burp>

[erty65]

:confused: Oh, and neither wheel is gonna help much if you have your bars at saddle height and are sitting up into the wind...

?

[madbiker]

:confused:

?

I think he means that there isn't a whole lot of use in using an aero wheel if you have your body propped up in the air like a sail. Kinda like no use spending $$$$ on an ultra light frame if you always ride with 4 water bottles, saddle bags, spare tires, cell phone, mirror, etc...:)

[chrisroph]

People I trust, including one who recently won a world championship, have told me the carbones ride great and are superfast wheels at over 28mph. So I'm sure they are great. However, I have a set of 303 tubies and I can tell you that they are also superfast wheels at over 28mph and, while a bit fussy, are a performance bargain---if you get them on a "pro deal" like I did or find a nice set of used ones. I saw a set the other day on the OBRA site for about $400 including tires.

[ZippRider]

bostondrunk
You are so right about sponsorship of wheels. Lance is riding Zipps I mean Bontregers(sp) I know for a fact that Lance used Zipps relabled in the time trial!!!!! :crap:

[Spicoli]

You are correct sir!!! 04 Vuelta ITT Postal used Zipps with Big Bonti swirl stickers on them. Dimples and indented Zipp logos are pretty hard to hide. :rolleyes:

[ZippRider]

I'm nor a sir, I'm just another so called bike rider...

Zipp

[Spicoli]

Wow...Just an expression dude( oh disregard the dude I think?)

[jerk]

it's not about momentum...the kid asked if he use zipp 303s or mavic cosmic carbones....the carbones are more aero, are far stiffer from side to side and use better hubs. they're faster wheels and better suited for his requirements....not that the jerk knows anything more than what the guy asked. carbones are light enough that there's no real world advantage to compromising the extra aerodynamics and stiffness for the weight decrease. on the other hand the jerk agrees entirely with everything mean and awful the bostondrunk said about handlebar height. plus if the race really matters and the team will let you you're going to riding adas anyway.
jerk

[Climb01742]

i have absolutely no idea who's right in all this, but i like spicoli's fighting spirit. :beer: me, i like wheels made by jeremy at alchemy...dems some light mothers...and i'm a wussy. ok, sorry for the pointless interruption...continue your :argue:

[jerk]

i have absolutely no idea who's right in all this, but i like spicoli's fighting spirit. :beer: me, i like wheels made by jeremy at alchemy...dems some light mothers...and i'm a wussy. ok, sorry for the pointless interruption...continue your :argue:


ok the jerk'll bite who's jeremy? who's alchemy? it's not ron jeremy is it? cause he is not by any means light. although he is certainly a mother f*&(&er.

jerk

[Climb01742]

oh my god. i know something the jerk doesn't? pigs must be flying! :beer: :p ;) :D

seriously, this dude knows his sh*t and makes amazingly light yet wickedly strong wheels: Jeremy Parafit and his shop is called Alchemy Bike Works in sante fe, nm. and he's a really nice guy. check him out, senor.

[Spicoli]

Thanks Climb. And the origial off topical blah blah blah Im right your wrong huey was about, why where some people bashing the crap out of Zipps? I think we all agreed about the original question that the carbones would be better for that particular event. Yes they are more aero (Aero being priorty one regardless of manufacturer) than a 303 but not a 404 and thats another debate.
As far as the Mavic vs Zipp debate stiffer and better hubs,that I will have to disagree with. Stiffer depends on build so that could go either way and they both use a cartridge bearings which is actually something that is standardized and rated, since the "majority of cartridge bearings are for machine use". I am not sure of the rating on Zipps or Mavics but I would say they are probably pretty close. FYI if any of you guys are familiar with skate boards you will know what I am talking about with bearing ratings, I believe it is 1-7 seven being better and they are all stamped usually on the dustcaps (unless replaced w/builders own caps). The same bearings in a skateboard or rollerblade wheel will fit certain bicycle hubs and fit my Hitachi power planer and angle grinder. Cartridge bearings are a cheaper easier way for companys to produce hubs. No ball bearings no races to fuss over and a monkey could adjust them, so they are perfect for knuckleheads who spend way too much time talking about instead of riding bikes. (I am speaking of myself) Next time you toast a bearing try a transmission or machine parts shop for a replacement. I am not starting a fight , just throwing it out there. :D

[ZippRider]

If the Mavic has a deeper profile then the 303Zipp it should be faster at speed as long as it is mostly flat to rolling. The Zipp 404 is a little heavier and a faster wheel then the 303 on flat to rolling terrain.....

Zipp

[flyingscot]

When you guys are talking about carbones are we discussing Tubulars or clinchers (ie is there a huge diif in performance - there does not appear to be one in weight) ?

I must admit that for the price I am sceptical about the real world benfits of a carbon clinher such as the Zipps or Reynolds over our trusty friend the Mavics

Zipp tubular vs Mavic tubular : big weight saving
Zipp clincher vs Mavic clincher : smaller weight saving !!

[Spicoli]

When you guys are talking about carbones are we discussing Tubulars or clinchers (ie is there a huge diif in performance - there does not appear to be one in weight) ?

I must admit that for the price I am sceptical about the real world benfits of a carbon clinher such as the Zipps or Reynolds over our trusty friend the Mavics

Zipp tubular vs Mavic tubular : big weight saving
Zipp clincher vs Mavic clincher : smaller weight saving !!

I was refering to tubs.

[93legendti]

I'm thinking of getting some FSA K Force clincher carbon rimmed wheels. Anyone ride them yet?