new campy vs old campy

[uglysailor]

I've grown up on Campagnolo, but the last stuff I bought was 1999 Chorus 9 spd. It's smooth as silk, and I love it. However, now I'm building up a new bike I'm wondering whether the new campy stuff is the same as the old stuff - I've been told that the new stuff isn't as smooth as the old stuff, I've heard it described as "more direct", "stiffer", "clunkier", "harsher", "crisper", you get the general idea...

So, I'm wondering whether anyone out there has any direct experience of Campy 9 spd ca 1999 and either 10 spd or 11 spd Chorus, and can give me a quick opinion on the differences between them.

I've recently ridden sram force and it's definitely a little harsher & clunkier than my old campy. Is this what the new Campy is like?

I've done a few searches and not found an answer (and no, this isn't another chorus vs force thread...)

[Nautilus]

From my limited experience the older stuff is more clunky, more direct, ect, and that's what I like about it.

Your experience may differ...

[Dave]

I've being riding nothing but Campy since 1995. I've switched from 8 to 9 to 10 to 11 speed the very first year that each one came out.

I can assure you that there is nothing harsh or clunky about the new 11 speed or the older 10 speed. The new 11 speed chainrings shifting is quick and smooth and so are the cog shifts. They don't clunk like SRAM.

The latest shifters ('09-'10 ultrashift) have a much less distinct click from the right finger lever, compared to previous shifters, due to an entirely new internal mechanism. The '09 10 speed shifters had a much less distinct right finger lever click than the 11 speed shifters. That caused many complaints, so it was corrected, late in '09. The late '09 and all '10 shifters now have the more distinct clicks, like 11 speed.

Owners of the early '09 model shifters can make the change to the revised mechanism by purchasing repair kit CE-EC110 for about $40 and installing it.

[Kines]

Of course everyone will have an opinion and they will vary, but since you asked mine..... I also have had campy from 8 speed to 11 and I love it all. The new 11 speed Record works absolutely beautifully.

KN

[Ozz]

I think the "clunkier", "harsher", and "stiffer" adjectives are used when comparing it to Shimano...not other Campy.

I prefer words like "solid", "direct", and "positive" to describe the shifting.....versus "vague" or "soft".

Cheers.

[uglysailor]

thanks. Maybe I confused the issue by mentioning sram which I thought was quite a brutal transmission compared to the campy. The harshness etc I was referring to was on the FD & RD not on the gear levers.

Not sure I want to go 11 spd mainly because I do all my maintenance myself, and the chain-tool seems a little expensive...

If I wanted to go 10 speed Chorus - which year do I need to find to get the "old" campagnolo feel? That is, a distinct click on the right-hand gear lever as opposed to the clickless soft feel that seems to have been in place during 2009.

And, what's the difference between Quick-shift and Ultra-shift?

[Marcusaurelius]

I've been using campagnolo since 1999 in it's various forms. I would say the post 2001-2002 chorus 9/10 speed is my favourite (all alloy). I started to lose interest when campagnolo started to switch to carbon. I like the shiny bits and I prefer an alloy crankset to a carbon one.

Quick shift was supposed to shift better than standard shifters (I've never tried this marketing claim). Ultra was a name that I found on a pair a record carbon shifters I once tried, I believe it had an extra plastic washer to make shifting a little smoother. I didn't notice any shifting difference.

[quansoo]

I've had Campy stuff since the mid-90s too. Both current bikes have Chorus 10, one from 2000 or 2001 and the other from 2008. (Have not yet bought 11 but may this year). In 2008 I bought a bike on the forum set up with SRAM Force. I rode it for a month or so and liked it but I missed doing something with my thumbs. (I drive stick cars too). Sold the Force and bought Chorus.

I found the SRAM stuff clunkier and noisier than the Campy.

I think I'm a Campy lifer.

[rustychain]

A quick link is now available for 11 speed and Park tool makes a great 11 speed chain tool and rivit tool for around $80. 11 speed ergos no longer have the springs that wear out. They will last longer without service. Hoods are more comfortable for most folks.

[pdbrye]

11 is awesome! Love the shape of the new hoods. I've ridden 10 since it came out but 11 is a new ball game IMHO.

[handsomerob]

great minds think alike. The best "most positive indexing" shifters I have used were Record 8 speed 2nd Generation. I loved the way the internals felt when shifting but I greatly prefer the next generation Ergo handle shapes... I guess this would now be the generation previous to current.

I think my ideal choice would be the ones I linked below...

never tried them, but I would love to have a set (or a case)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/03/bikes-tech/campy-offering-600-record-red-levers-to-general-public_73528

[ggross]

Had old Campy - loved it.

Have new Campy 11 - love it.

Whatever thay do next - I will love it too.

The stuff works and is cool. What else do you need to know?

[tylercheung]

old and campy? I thought this was gonna be a thread on John Waters!

[OldDog]

I have run Campy since 1972 with a steel Gran Tourismo on a P-15 Paramount. My current ride sport 2002 Record. Super sweet. I picked up a 2003 Chorus in December 03 as it was the last of the Silver sets, that works just as sweet as the 02 Record. I can't imagine buying another group for a long time. Does not answer your question...

[cmg]

bought campy when they introduced 9 speed and then 10. And when they come out with the next one after 11spd i'll probably buy the 11sp off eBay. shifts great, last forever and is repairable. buy it once and buy it for life.

[Velosmith]

I've pretty much been through it all. My favorites are:

-2002/3 Chorus Alloy 10 speed (just feels right). These are on my steel bikes.

-2009 Chorus 11 speed. Love the ergo grips. Shifts really quick on the rear and is very positive. Front shift can be done under power pretty well. These are on my carbon bike.

My not-so favorite:

I wasn't imressed by the Carbon QS (2007-8) either Record or Chorus. Works OK just didn't see any advantage and the internals were a little "muted".

I had a set of early 2009 Centaur 10 speed. Really soft and Shimano like.


Overall, I guess I have not had a really bad experience. I don't think you can go wrong with the curent 11 speed line. There is very little difference in the functionality between Centaur through Super Record. Just weight variances.

Nice stuff!!!

[Dave]

thanks. Maybe I confused the issue by mentioning sram which I thought was quite a brutal transmission compared to the campy. The harshness etc I was referring to was on the FD & RD not on the gear levers.

Not sure I want to go 11 spd mainly because I do all my maintenance myself, and the chain-tool seems a little expensive...

If I wanted to go 10 speed Chorus - which year do I need to find to get the "old" campagnolo feel? That is, a distinct click on the right-hand gear lever as opposed to the clickless soft feel that seems to have been in place during 2009.

And, what's the difference between Quick-shift and Ultra-shift?


There is another thread going where I have explained quick shift. It's nothing but a reduction in the dead travel from the left finger lever.

The term ultra was applied to some Record shifters, but it's just a friction reducing coating on the index gear. The term ultrashift describes the entirely new mechanism that came out in 2009, in both 10 and 11 speed models. These new shifters also have an entirely new shape and brake lever - nothing like the older models.

All Campy Record/Chorus/Centaur shifters prior to 2009 have the old mechanism and heavier clicks, except '07-'08 Centaur and lower levels. Those use the escape mechanism, that you want to avoid.

[oldpotatoe]

I've grown up on Campagnolo, but the last stuff I bought was 1999 Chorus 9 spd. It's smooth as silk, and I love it. However, now I'm building up a new bike I'm wondering whether the new campy stuff is the same as the old stuff - I've been told that the new stuff isn't as smooth as the old stuff, I've heard it described as "more direct", "stiffer", "clunkier", "harsher", "crisper", you get the general idea...

So, I'm wondering whether anyone out there has any direct experience of Campy 9 spd ca 1999 and either 10 spd or 11 spd Chorus, and can give me a quick opinion on the differences between them.

I've recently ridden sram force and it's definitely a little harsher & clunkier than my old campy. Is this what the new Campy is like?

I've done a few searches and not found an answer (and no, this isn't another chorus vs force thread...)

2009 Campagnolo has a much lighter shift action, less effort to shift to a lower gear or big ring than the 2008 and older stuff. Thumb button feels the same. I think the advantage of 2009/2010 Campagnolo is the ergonomics of the levers and the the simplified shifter innards. No more shift wprings nor a spring carrier..so they shouldn't need that OVH ike the older levers.

I think the best value is 2010 Athena, mostly aluminum and 11s. But Centaur(still 10s) is a great value too if you want to stay 10s. Veloce is black Centaur.

[dancinkozmo]

..just get shimano .
it all works perfect.
period.
:)

[whforrest]

raced on campy since '84. Back in the nuovo record days, now im on record 11, it doesn't get any better. campy is the best of breed in performance, durability and design.

[oldpotatoe]

..just get shimano .
it all works perfect.
period.
:)

Until the lever quits, then you buy another one but when it works, it works well.

[dancinkozmo]

Until the lever quits, then you buy another one but when it works, it works well.

true i suppose... one thing i think shimano has over campy though is the price and availability of replacement parts/tools. anyone price out a campy chaintool lately ?

Ive got a mix of super record/ c-record on my old gios...it works good enough and , to my eye, its prettier than anything thats come out since.

[Dave]

Compare the prices for Campy parts and groups at Ribble or Shiny bikes to Shimano prices. Availability is as close as you computer. I've been using Campy since 1995 and never bought a part at a local shop.

A special chain tool is only needed for the new 11 speed chain. Park now sells a dedicated pin-flaring tool for the 11 speed chain that is relatively cheap. An ordinary chain tool can still be used to break the chain and insert the special joining pin. The Campy tool does work better, though. I paid $140 for mine, in November of 2008.

There is one master link now sold that fits an 11 speed chain, so you can skip the special joining pin, but they are outrageously priced at $20 each. I've used KMC master links that cost $4 and others report success with the SRAM 10 powerloc. KMC should have their version of an 11 speed chain and master link out soon, providing some additional options.

[uglysailor]

Thanks guys for all the input, this place really is a goldmine...

I'll be trying out the Chorus 11 speed, hopefully it'll be as good as everyone says it is. And anyway, even if I saved a few dollars and went for some 10spd or the new Athena or Centaur, I'd probably just end up wondering what I'm missing compared to Chorus 11spd.

[oldpotatoe]

true i suppose... one thing i think shimano has over campy though is the price and availability of replacement parts/tools. anyone price out a campy chaintool lately ?

Ive got a mix of super record/ c-record on my old gios...it works good enough and , to my eye, its prettier than anything thats come out since.

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL401A12-Shimano+Tl-Cn32+Chain+Tool.aspx

Nice, wooden handle but it does the same thing as a $7 chaintool.

I can't find the price for the Di2 voltage tester but I think it's about $250.

Some parts can be pricey but if you can't find some available Campagnolo 'bit', your LBS or MO place or whatever is being lazy. Many Campagnolo distributors in the USA.

[uglysailor]

Hi, I'm back, just got my hands on a Chorus 11-speed groupset and must say I'm slightly disappointed in the perceived quality of the parts, especially the ergos.

What's with the plastic gear shift paddle? Seems a bit cheap and nasty on such an expensive part...The 1999 chorus alloy levers definitely feel a like better quality part, even the Force had a metal paddle.

I noticed also that the FD now has the band riveted to the derailleur, whereas before it was screwed on so you could take it apart and clean it properly.

Also the RD seems like a poorer finish than I'd expect and the cranks are basically on a par with the Force I just sold.

Anyway, I bought it because I want the Campy feel when shifting, so hopefully it'll deliver on that.

Still, I can't help feeling that Campy has cut corners and slimmed down its stuff and that the older stuff definitely was built to a better standard. I'm even wondering whether I should have saved a few $$ and gone for Athena...

Any thoughts? Is the Campy stuff less well built or am I just being too critical?

[oldpotatoe]

Hi, I'm back, just got my hands on a Chorus 11-speed groupset and must say I'm slightly disappointed in the perceived quality of the parts, especially the ergos.

What's with the plastic gear shift paddle? Seems a bit cheap and nasty on such an expensive part...The 1999 chorus alloy levers definitely feel a like better quality part, even the Force had a metal paddle.

I noticed also that the FD now has the band riveted to the derailleur, whereas before it was screwed on so you could take it apart and clean it properly.

Also the RD seems like a poorer finish than I'd expect and the cranks are basically on a par with the Force I just sold.

Anyway, I bought it because I want the Campy feel when shifting, so hopefully it'll deliver on that.

Still, I can't help feeling that Campy has cut corners and slimmed down its stuff and that the older stuff definitely was built to a better standard. I'm even wondering whether I should have saved a few $$ and gone for Athena...

Any thoughts? Is the Campy stuff less well built or am I just being too critical?

Yer being too critical.

[mjhcyclist]

Park offers an alternative to the Campy 11 speed chain tool:

Park Master Chain Tool CT-4.2
Park 11 Speed Peening Tool CT-11

I've used them, but I haven't gotten many road miles on that bike yet...

[Dave]

The plastic finger shift lever is used to save weight. It's been in use for a long time and is totally reliable. There is no lack of quality, IMO.

I've got one Chrous 11 FD and one Record 11 FD, the cages are different, but the rest looks the same. My 11 speed RDs are both Record. No complaints about the finish. I've got two Record 11 cranks and one Chorus 11. There's no difference in the finish that I can see and the chainrings are the same, with the same hard anodized finish. That makes the Chorus crank a bargain, IMO. The Record model is 40 grams lighter with a higher level ceramic hybrid bearing.

The carbon crank's finish is a very thick clearcoat. If you want to improve it, you could sand with 1500-2000 grit and buff with automotive polish. I've done that on a small area that had noticeable "orange peel".

I've never taken a FD apart to "clean it properly" in 25 years. I give the pivots a good shot of spray lube, frequently. Same goes for RD pivots and pulley bushings.

I did take my 5 year old Chorus RD apart recently and improved it's function by placing a shim washer behind the C-clip on the main pivot to reduce the axial play down to almost nothing. That took an .031 inch shim. It's shifting nicely with an 11 speed drivetrain.

[thwart]

Hi, I'm back, just got my hands on a Chorus 11-speed groupset and must say I'm slightly disappointed in the perceived quality of the parts, especially the ergos. Still, I can't help feeling that Campy has cut corners and slimmed down its stuff and that the older stuff definitely was built to a better standard. I'm even wondering whether I should have saved a few $$ and gone for Athena...

Any thoughts? Is the Campy stuff less well built or am I just being too critical? State of the art shifting.
Legendary durability.
Hang on the wall jewel-like finish.
Amazingly competitive prices ($900 Athena mail order)

OK... you can pick only 3 of those 4...

For the above reasons, I think vintage Campy stuff (that being 10 speed and backwards) will hold its value fairly well.

[uglysailor]

Maybe I just need to get with the program, but for me the new stuff is definitely manufactured to a lower standard than the stuff they made 10 years ago.

The build quality on 1999 and 2000 Chorus and Record (Titanium & Carbon) is better than 11 Speed. To my mind there's simply no question about it.

That's not saying 11-speed is bad, it's just not as good. Same thing goes for most things being made today, manufacturers need to cut costs and end up making stuff that's cheaper to produce by saving on the quality of materials, the amount of material and by simplifying the manufacturing process. You just need to look at an expolded view of the 10 yr old stuff compared to the new stuff to see this.

Anyway like I said before if it shifts like Campy, lasts like Campy and can be serviced like Campy, I'm happy. It still won't look & feel like the old Campy though, but that's progress I suppose.

[Dave]

uglysailor...

You might be right with regard to the anodized silver finish on the Chorus parts, but that varied even 10 years ago. I've bought two silver Record brakesets (long ago) and found that one looked a little better than the other. That's mostly explained with unavoidable variations in polishing and anodizing processes.

Campy gave up on the mirror finished hubs a long time ago -first switching to a more brushed look and then to black.

If you dismantle a new shifter or RD, you will not find any "lower quality" parts inside. The ergo body material is the same, the carbon is the same. The new Record and SR RD pulleys have ceramic bushing and bearings to reduce friction and wear.

The new shifting mechanism is more simple, but that should be a good thing, in the long run. There are far fewer springs and no g-springs to wear out. Campy expects far less maintenance to be required. The most critical area can be lubed with the shifters on the bike. A couple of drops of oil between the index disc and ball retaining disc will keep things running smooth.

I can disassemble and reassemble the new shift levers much faster than before. It also requires far less skill. If there is a problem, you can buy all the guts that go into the back half for $38 and not worry about which of the parts is causing the problem. Campy has quit selling every component separately, as the did in years past. Now there are subassemblies to fix various problems. Still beats the brands that are not repairable and cost a lot more.