How to use the glutes in the pedal stroke?

[serpico7]

I find that when I ride hard, my quads get sore, but my hamstrings and glutes *never* get sore. Over time, this has caused a lot of anterior knee pain - at first quadriceps/patellar tendonitis, and then chondromalacia. Eventually, the knee pain forced me off the bike; it got to the point that I’d have knee pain from just walking.

Since then I've done a lot of posterior chain strengthening (deadlifts, reverse hypers, glute hyperextensions, Romanian deadlifts, hamstring curls, pull-throughs). And this has definitely helped my knees. I'm now thinking about getting back on the bike, and I think that if I can figure out how to engage my glutes while cycling, I can probably avoid hurting my knees. Having read some of Ti Designs posts, I think he might agree.

Here's a video I took shortly before my knee pain forced me off the bike. Video includes both front and side views. I was playing around with different Lemond wedges (shims) in the video. Wowzers I was skinny back then (after getting off the bike, I've put on a little weight).

Note: Because I'm on rollers, the bike isn't perfectly level - the back wheel is slightly lower than the front because it is between roller pins, while the front is on top of the pin.

Youtube video link (sorry, embedded link didn't work) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoNdoP5TC0o)

I think I’ll try sliding the saddle back a bit (note that I’m using a zero offset post) and rotating my pelvis forward (clockwise when viewed from the right side).

Any thoughts on cleat position? Coming at this from a long layoff and much improved posterior chain (at least off the bike), I've taken out the Lemond wedges. I've moved the cleats as far back as they can go, which isn't very far back (Look Keo + Sidi Genius). Any ideas on cleat position laterally? I'm using a triple chainring and have pretty narrow hips, so I moved the cleats to the outer edge of the shoe so that my feet would be closer to the bottom bracket. Also, I read from that famous CP Tips page that medial knee pain is sometimes alleviated by moving cleats in this manner. But perhaps that's not such a great idea for trying to recruit glutes?

[LesMiner]

I had had the same pain you describe. I thought I had damaged my knee permanently. After a visit with a sports doctor and a physical thearpist I worked the problem out. While I was having the problem, the balls of feet would get sore as well. At times I was mashing the pedals so hard but only on the down stoke. After all the physical thearpy I concentrated on spinning more evenly and not so much mashing. The analogy of scrapping mud off your shoe as a way of pedaling helped me. I think using the glutes is a more of a matter of pushing your back against a stationary object with your legs. You can position yourself in a way that you are putting your back into it by pushing with your legs so to speak .

[regularguy412]

You can try 'leading with your heel' on the downstroke and then using the scraping method (as previously mentioned) through the bottom of the stoke. That is, try to keep your heel slightly lower or at least level with the ball of your foot. I've found this combination especially helpful while climbing at a slower cadence.

This should should also help alleviate the bruised feeling at the ball of your foot.

Mike in AR:beer:

[93legendti]

TiDesigns has posted frequently on this. A search of his posts would give you lots of info.

[ridefixed]

Your bars are too wide.

[serpico7]

Your bars are too wide.
No, that's just an illusion created by the camera angle - since the bars are much closer to the camera, they look wider than my shoulders.

[John M]

I learned to recruit the glutes better by climbing out of the saddle. I find that the increased forces required when under heavy load such as climbing a steep hill out of the saddle really let you know when you are correctly engaging the glutes and/or the quads. Once you get the feel for what gluteal contraction feels like, it is then easier to recruit them while spinning along on flat terrain.

[Ti Designs]

Any thoughts on cleat position? Coming at this from a long layoff and much improved posterior chain (at least off the bike), I've taken out the Lemond wedges. I've moved the cleats as far back as they can go, which isn't very far back (Look Keo + Sidi Genius). Any ideas on cleat position laterally? I'm using a triple chainring and have pretty narrow hips, so I moved the cleats to the outer edge of the shoe so that my feet would be closer to the bottom bracket. Also, I read from that famous CP Tips page that medial knee pain is sometimes alleviated by moving cleats in this manner. But perhaps that's not such a great idea for trying to recruit glutes?


The only good tip here is to find a good fitter who understands both knees and the forces acting on knees from cycling. Trying random things based on what you read on the internet is a good way to damage your knees. Cleat position and alignment starts with observation and measurment which is damn hard to do on yourself. You know that old saying "measure twice, cut once"? It's not just for wood working...

As for using the glutes, I've all but given up on that subject here 'cause I'm always fighting that common idea that pushing a larger gear is bad for the knees, or I'm told that what I'm trying to teach can't work. So here's my suggestion:

Step 1: Get a copy of Stars and Watercarriers and watch Eddy Merckx climb the steep grades (there' a good shot of him from the side)

Step 2: Set up a stool or piano bench near a mirror so you can see yourself from the side. You want your position to be about the same as Eddy's, so start with a flat back - note that all the forward extension happens at the hips. Your feet should be on the floor just in front of your knees. If you look down at your feet and try to push down, you'll fire your quads. No more looking down at your feet... So, while watching Eddy climb, notice where his center of gravity is - right over the pedals. That's what you're looking for, center of gravity right over the ball of the foot. This is where that KOPS theory goes out the window. How your center of gravity finds it's way over the pedals has to do with femur length (now a horizontal member), your lower back flexability, and your torso lenght. Your body knows where to place your feet under you (it's been doing that your whole life), but play around with moving them forward and back. Too far back and your center of gravity gets forward of your feet, and you must fire your quads to keep from falling on your face. Too far forward and your hamstrings have to fire to stabalize the position. You're looking for a position where your center of gravity is well forward of your hips and only your glutes are holding your body weight up...

Step 3: I can't stress enough that you can't skip step 2. The static case is simple, it's sitting on a chair. Most people resist the dynamic case, thinking it's some kind of core workout - it's not. In step 2, if the floor was pulled out from under you, and you didn't change how you were supporting your body weight, you would pivot forward from the hips, right??? That's what I'm going to ask you to do on the bike. First, understand the range of motion we're talking about. it's from 45 degrees up to 45 degrees down, or 1:30 to 4:30. You're going to need a huge gear on the trainer for this, it has to be able to support your body weight. You start this one pedal stroke at a time - no running before you can walk. So, with the same position you had while sitting, the bike in a huge gear and the pedal at 1:30, take your weight off the bar and support that weight on the pedal, just as you had done on the floor. Allow your body weight to follow that pedal as your body weight pushes it down. You now look a little bit like Eddy Merckx, or like most people your natural reactions have taken over, and in an effort not to fall you've fired your quads. You have to learn how to let your body weight fall into the pedal before we can talk about making this a sequence. Once you get falling into the pedal the sequence is this: From 45 degrees up to 45 degrees down, drop your body weight on the pedal. When you get to 45 degrees down, put a bit of weight back on the bars and bring your torso position back up and wait for the other pedal to get to it's starting point. You have to reset your body position or you'll bang your face on the stem after about 3 pedal strokes.

Having said all of that, you're probably best off not trying to figure this out by yourself. Maybe 10% will read this and get it, which means 90% will get it wrong. People have no idea what they're really doing. A few years ago I started using video to work on my own form, and if the guy on the screen wasn't bald and ugly I would swear it wasn't me doing what I was doing. And if that's not enough, the transition from the control of a trainer to the open loop world of the road is the hardest part. Anyone can concentrate while riding the trainer, getting this all to work when riding with your friends outside is a whole new task.

My only good advice here is to find some good help and don't skip steps.

[Bob Loblaw]

From what I can see, it looks like you have long arms and legs relative to your torso. Your frame is too small and your seat is pushed way far back to compensate. Right now you're so far back your pedal stroke is like a leg extension. You want it to be more like a leg press.

Moving your seat forward is the way take some of the load off your quads and spread it to the glutes and hams. That being the case, you need a bigger frame with a seat tube that's more vertical. Or at least a longer stem and a taller seat post with zero setback

Disclaimer: I'm just a guy on the Internet.

BL

[johnnymossville]

From what I can see, it looks like you have long arms and legs relative to your torso. Your frame is too small and your seat is pushed way far back to compensate. Right now you're so far back your pedal stroke is like a leg extension. You want it to be more like a leg press.

Moving your seat forward is the way take some of the load off your quads and spread it to the glutes and hams. That being the case, you need a bigger frame with a seat tube that's more vertical. Or at least a longer stem and a taller seat post with zero setback

Disclaimer: I'm just a guy on the Internet.

BL

what he said. looks to me like your knees would take a real pounding in that position. you've got to spread around the pain to keep it from whacking any one spot.


I'm still trying to understand Ti-Design's post and I really want to cause it sounds good.

[serpico7]

From what I can see, it looks like you have long arms and legs relative to your torso. Your frame is too small and your seat is pushed way far back to compensate. Right now you're so far back your pedal stroke is like a leg extension. You want it to be more like a leg press. Yeah, I have very long limbs/short torso for my height. Seat might have been pushed back in that video (done a long time ago, so I don’t remember), but I’m using a zero offset seatpost. That frame has a 53.5cm TT and 73.5* seat tube angle. I’ve tried bigger frames (with 54.5cm TT) and the reach is way too long unless I use really short stems. My torso just isn’t long enough for a bigger frame (even though my legs clearly are) – though I suppose my limited flexibility has something to do with that.

Moving your seat forward is the way take some of the load off your quads and spread it to the glutes and hams. Doesn’t moving the seat forward increase the load on the quads??

That being the case, you need a bigger frame with a seat tube that's more vertical. Or at least a longer stem and a taller seat post with zero setback
Here, I was thinking I might need an offset seatpost so that the saddle isn’t all the way back on the clamp. Switching to a longer stem is easy enough if I can tilt my pelvis more forward. Just goes to show – everyone’s got a different opinion on fit.

[serpico7]

I'm still trying to understand Ti-Design's post and I really want to cause it sounds good.Me too. Now that I've done a lot of posterior chain work in the gym, I know how to use my glutes in the gym, while swimming and even walking. Just a matter of figuring out how to use them on the bike.

[Bob Loblaw]

Doesn’t moving the seat forward increase the load on the quads??.

Nope. If you can draw a vertical line through your hip and ankle as you push straight down, your quads, hams and gluteals are all about as involved as they can be. On a bicycle, your ideal position is slightly back from this because the pedal motion is circular, not straight down, and you're also using your hams and gluteals to pull back and up at the bottom of the stroke.

If you watch a pro go around a corner with one leg extended all the way down, the rider's hip and heel are almost in the same vertical plane. In your video, your hip and foot were in different area codes.


Just goes to show – everyone’s got a different opinion on fit.

Yep.

BL

[Dave]

Nope. If you can draw a vertical line through your hip and ankle as you push straight down, your quads, hams and gluteals are all about as involved as they can be. On a bicycle, your ideal position is slightly back from this because the pedal motion is circular, not straight down, and you're also using your hams and gluteals to pull back and up at the bottom of the stroke.

If you watch a pro go around a corner with one leg extended all the way down, the rider's hip and heel are almost in the same vertical plane. In your video, your hip and foot were in different area codes.

BL

If you drop a plumb bob from the hip, it will be a long way behind the hip - not even close to a vertical line. Mine appears to be in the 10-15cm range. A saddle tip may be setback from the center of the BB by 5-10cm (mine's 6-7cm at a 73cm saddle height). The hip is a lot further back than that. Those two lengths add up to a lot more that the ball of foot to heel length.

The pros most often use a lot of saddle setback. There are also a number of reputable fitters like Peter White and Steve Hogg whose advice follows the general thinking that you need to stay fairly far back to make best use of the glutes and avoid using the quads only. They do not use KOP to set the saddle fore/aft position.

There are also limits to how far the saddle can be set back. The major frame brands don't vary all that much in the STAs offered at a given size (1.5 degree at most) and most setback posts have 20-35mm of setback. There's just not that much room for huge differences in setback, at a given saddle height.

[RADaines]

Steve Hogg discusses bike set-up, including position of saddle.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/cyclingnews-fitness-q-and-a-december-24-2009

[John M]

A comment on the center of gravity/move saddle forward responses.

Try this--go ride a recumbent then come back and explain how a few centimeters of fore-aft saddle adjustment or the relationship between center of gravity and the pedals has anything to do with recruiting muscle groups.

It doesn't. Fore-aft saddle adjustment helps fit by providing proper weight balance between the wheels for good handling and rider comfort. Pedaling with an appropriate balance between the muscle groups is a learned skill.

[Dave]

What an apples and oranges comparison of a recumbent to a standard bike. It reminds me of the guy who claimed that KOP changed when you ride uphill because a plumb bob swings to a different position when the bike is at an angle - totally ridiculous, but the guy was serious.

If you have the saddle too far forward there are other negative consequences in addition to the tendency to overuse the quads. You'll have too much weight on your hands and the bike will have too much weight on the front. Moving my saddle forward by 2cm would defintely put too much weight on my hands and even 1cm is noticeable.

I have a very short torso (169/83cm height to inseam), but I still use 6-7cm of setback at my 73cm saddle height, in order to support my weight with little help from my hands. I get a nearly ideal 45/55 front/rear weight balance. Riders with a more average torso length should need even more setback to balance a longer torso.

[zap]

Steve Hogg has some excellent articles on cyclingnews.com. Also check out his article on positioning cleats.

[serpico7]

I have a very short torso (169/83cm height to inseam), but I still use 6-7cm of setback at my 73cm saddle height, in order to support my weight with little help from my hands. I get a nearly ideal 45/55 front/rear weight balance.
I have nearly identical measurements - 169cm/83.5cm height/inseam. Interesting that you use so much saddle setback. What's your virtual TT length and stem length and angle? You likely have much greater flexibility and ability to rotate your pelvis forward forward than I demonstrate in that video.

In that video, I have less saddle setback than you, and virtual TT is 53.5cm and stem is 100mm, 10 degrees.

[Dave]

The TT length does not totally define reach. That requires both the TT length and the seat tube angle. My frame has a 53cm TT and 74.5 degree STA. The steeper the STA the longer the reach, by 8-9mm per degree. I have to use 25-32mm of setback on the seatpost to get my saddle that far back.

I use short reach (75mm) bars so I can use a 110mm stem. Measuring from the tip of my saddle to the center of the bars, I get 54.5-55cm.

[serpico7]

I use short reach (75mm) bars so I can use a 110mm stem. Measuring from the tip of my saddle to the center of the bars, I get 54.5-55cm.
What a difference, given our nearly identical measurements. In that video, tip of saddle to center of bars is ~48cm.

[Dave]

I also use a very large 11cm saddle to bar drop.

I can't imagine how you could get the saddle nose to center of bar dimension to be that short - measured diagonally. If I used standard reach bars, the dimension would be reduce into the 53.5-54cm range, but that's still almost 6cm longer.

Shimano brake/shift levers are the longest of any brand, which makes them less desirable for the short torsoed rider.

[serpico7]

I can't imagine how you could get the saddle nose to center of bar dimension to be that short - measured diagonally.
LOL. Look at the video I linked to in the first clip. Must be because I'm sitting so upright.

[Tobias]

LOL. Look at the video I linked to in the first clip. Must be because I'm sitting so upright.
Yes, you probably sit much higher than Dave. And your arm lengths may be very different also which could make a big difference.

[sirroada]

From what I can see, it looks like you have long arms and legs relative to your torso. Your frame is too small and your seat is pushed way far back to compensate. Right now you're so far back your pedal stroke is like a leg extension. You want it to be more like a leg press.

Moving your seat forward is the way take some of the load off your quads and spread it to the glutes and hams. That being the case, you need a bigger frame with a seat tube that's more vertical. Or at least a longer stem and a taller seat post with zero setback

Disclaimer: I'm just a guy on the Internet.

BL

I totally agree with this analysis. The reason your quads were overdeveloped and your hamstrings were underdeveloped has to do with the pure and simple fact that you are not using your hams at all. You need to get up over your crankset and drive your leg more downward in a pressing motion rather than an extension motion. If you do this you are forced to utilize your hamstring to pull the leg back up. Bottom line...you need a new bike. Don't mess with cleat angles, seat angles and all the "small" (i'm ducking ;) )stuff when there is a big problem like that staring you in the face. Fix the geometry and then fix the little stuff. Time to visit your local Serotta shop and stimulate the economy on the eastern seaboard!

[serpico7]

Bottom line...you need a new bike.
So you agree with Bob that my bike is too small.

Yet we have Dave, who has nearly identical height and inseam measurements with 6-7cm more reach from saddle tip to bars than I am using in that video. I just don't get the 'your frame is too small' rationale. I can easily increase the effective size of my bike by using a setback post and a longer stem - the question is whether I have the flexibility to tolerate it.

[Dave]

Some of you guys are giving the OP poor advice. A larger frame will solve nothing. The need for a larger frame is indicated when you either have too much saddle to bar drop and/or a 130-140mm stem is not long enough. Neither of these situations exists. The OP is not using much saddle to bar drop and his stem is short.

Frame size has absolutely nothing to do with the saddle position relative to the BB. That is determined by the STA, the seapost setback and the position of the saddle on the seatpost. That could be the same on a 50cm frame or a 55cm frame.

The most common mistakes I see are people using nonsetback posts that place the saddle too far forward (even if the saddle is all the way back on the post), overly short reaches and too little saddle to bar drop. The saddle being too far forward is what creates the need for the other two problems.

What I look for in an aggressive position is the hands in the hooks (where the finger can reach the brake levers), with the upper back only 5-10 degrees above horizontal. REally fit riders may be even closer to having a horizontal upper back. With enough saddle to bar drop, the arms only need to bend slightly, or not at all - just relaxed. If the stem is long enough, there will be a small amount of clearance between the knees and arms while pedaling. There is no need to flare the elbows to avoid knee to arm interference.

I don't believe that I have very long arms to match my long legs, but there are so many ways to measure arm length that I've never measured mine. Unless the exact measurement method is outlined, posting an arm length is meaningless.

[derosa_guy]

OK. My 2 cents. You need to stretch. If you are stretching now, you need to stretch more. You are barely extending your leg and your toes are really pointed on your entire pedal stroke. It looks like you couldn't drop your heal if you tried.

After a month of stretching or yoga, go to the best bike fitter in your area. Have him set you up on your current bike. Ride the crap out if it for a month. Go back to the shop and THEN see if it's the right size for you. If it's not, buy a bike that is the right size or have them do more adjustments.

Stretching for you is the key. You're too tight and it's messing up your fit. worry about the rest of the stuff once you can flex your ankle.

[serpico7]

^^^ Thanks Dave. Bob and Aaron are not the first to suggest that my frame is too small. I think people see my relatively upright torso and assume that I am being cramped by the bike, when the reality is that my relative lack of flexibility is what drove the position, not the constraints of the frame.

Speaking of flexibility, I think it's better now than it was 2years ago when that video was taken. I'll take some new pics of me in the drops with a couple of different saddle setback positions.

[serpico7]

Stretching for you is the key. You're too tight and it's messing up your fit.
Agreed. If you had posted this earlier, we could have saved a few posts in this thread! :beer:

[Dave]

I guess I should add that I can place may hands nearly flat on the floor in bare feet, so I am plenty flexible. That undoubtedly contributes to being able to tolerate an 11cm drop.

I don't believe in intentionlly dropping the heel at the bottom of the stroke or ankling. I pedal with a heel rise of 2-3cm and try to get that recommended 30 degree bend in the leg at the bottom of the stroke. If I dropped my heel to horizontal, I'd need to lower my saddle by 2-3cm or my leg would be fully extended with no bend in it.

FWIW, if I apply the really old Lemond saddle height forumla (.883 times inseam) to my 83cm inseam, I get my 73cm saddle height. I use shoes and pedals with a very small stack height, so that might compare to 74cm with some other brands of pedals and shoes have more stack height.

One of the common recommendations for setting initial saddle height is to position the foot horizontal with the leg fully extended at the bottom of the stroke - with the foot properly clipped into the pedal. From that point a 3cm rise of the heel will produce about a 30 degree bend at the knee, but of course that varies some, with leg length.

[sirroada]

So you agree with Bob that my bike is too small.

Yet we have Dave, who has nearly identical height and inseam measurements with 6-7cm more reach from saddle tip to bars than I am using in that video. I just don't get the 'your frame is too small' rationale. I can easily increase the effective size of my bike by using a setback post and a longer stem - the question is whether I have the flexibility to tolerate it.

It's not the frame size, its your geometry on the frame you have. You are to far behind the crankset which causes you to "extend" your knee forward to pedal. You are not pedaling down, you are pedaling forward. This is like doing thousands of reps of leg extensions...no wonder you have knee problems. You need a frame that is fit to your body. Not necessarily a larger one. Additionally, by using a setback post all you are doing is "setting back" your position over the crank which is going to increase the need to extend the knee more.

[serpico7]

It's not the frame size, its your geometry on the frame you have. You are to far behind the crankset which causes you to "extend" your knee forward to pedal.
I think what may be happening is the visual effect of being on the rollers. Because the back wheel is between two drums, and the front wheel is on top of a drum, the bike is not level, so this creates the illusion that the saddle is further behind the BB than it actually is. You'd have to rotate your monitor clockwise to correct for this.

I picked up a trainer recently, so I'll take some shots on it where the bike is perfectly level, so that will eliminate this as a possible confounding factor.

[John M]

It's not the frame size, its your geometry on the frame you have. You are to far behind the crankset which causes you to "extend" your knee forward to pedal. You are not pedaling down, you are pedaling forward. This is like doing thousands of reps of leg extensions...no wonder you have knee problems. You need a frame that is fit to your body. Not necessarily a larger one. Additionally, by using a setback post all you are doing is "setting back" your position over the crank which is going to increase the need to extend the knee more.

This response goes against most things that I have read that indicate that recruitment of the powerful gluteal/hamstring muscles is more easily done by most riders with more saddle setback. Moving the saddle forward generally favors working the quads more and increases stress on the knee.

To get back to the OPs original question. He needs to learn pedaling technique that recruits the proper muscle groups in the correct sequence.

[sirroada]

This response goes against most things that I have read that indicate that recruitment of the powerful gluteal/hamstring muscles is more easily done by most riders with more saddle setback. Moving the saddle forward generally favors working the quads more and increases stress on the knee.

To get back to the OPs original question. He needs to learn pedaling technique that recruits the proper muscle groups in the correct sequence.

I agree with this John, however, if you watch the position of his knee relative to the ball of the foot when the pedal is in the forward position, his knee is well behind the ball of the foot. His set back position is excessive in my opinion. You should be able to drop a plumb bob from his knee and have it land directly over the ball of the foot in the forward pedal position. Since he is positioned further back it is forcing him to extend his knee forward during the first 90 degrees of rotation. Contracting the quads in this manner is going to prevent the hamstrings from even firing until they get on the backside of the pedal stroke. Properly positioned he should be pulling with his hamstrings just prior to the bottom of the pedal stroke.

[zap]

I agree with this John, however, if you watch the position of his knee relative to the ball of the foot when the pedal is in the forward position, his knee is well behind the ball of the foot. His set back position is excessive in my opinion. You should be able to drop a plumb bob from his knee and have it land directly over the ball of the foot in the forward pedal position. Since he is positioned further back it is forcing him to extend his knee forward during the first 90 degrees of rotation. Contracting the quads in this manner is going to prevent the hamstrings from even firing until they get on the backside of the pedal stroke. Properly positioned he should be pulling with his hamstrings just prior to the bottom of the pedal stroke.

Position related to kops has nothing to do with firing hamstrings. That's what the brain is for.

If one desires a fast and comfortable road position, one will be 1cm or more behind kops. The op also posted that he has problems with the front of his knees. Setting the position high enough, behind kops and cleats say 5-7mm back from the balls of his feet will help his knees. Higher than the norm saddle position will also utilize the hamstrings more.

[Dave]

sirroada...

There are a lot of fitting experts who totally disagree with your idea and so do I. Placing the knee over the pedal spindle absolutely does NOT force the knee to move forward. If that were true, I'd have to move forward on my saddle since it places my knee 1-2cm behind the pedal spindle. The knee is only directly over the pedal at one point in the rotation, regardless of where the saddle is located. At all other points in the rotation, a plumb bob off the knee would drop in front or behind the pedal spindle, but power is still transmitted over a range of around 135 degrees.

Most KOP measurements are done incorrectly in the first place, with the foot horizontal and not at the angle that actually occurs while pedaling. That alone makes the KOP measurement quite inaccurate. The knee could easily be behind the pedal spindle with the foot horizontal, but directly over it with some heel rise.

Try reading the article from Steve Hogg. He's fit a lot of high lever riders and never uses the knee over pedal idea. This link is one of the best discussions I've read on the subject.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/cyclingnews-fitness-q-and-a-december-24-2009

[serpico7]

You should be able to drop a plumb bob from his knee and have it land directly over the ball of the foot in the forward pedal position.
I didn't realize your muscle-firing argument was underpinned by KOPS. I thought KOPS was pretty much discredited at this point, but I guess it still lives on. Steve Hogg, Peter White, and Keith Bontrager have all written about why they disregard KOPS.

[Ti Designs]

There are a lot of fitting experts...


There's the problem, too many fitting experts.

Once again, I'm going to suggest that you go back to a static model 'cause it's easier to understand - and from what I've read thus far, that's where you need to start.

Let's start with this KOPS idea. The idea that a rider's saddle to pedal relationship can be set while only seeing half the picture is almost funny, yet that's what most people do. The "science" behind KOPS comes from engine tuning - the greatest torque is produced at a 90 degree crank angle. So they take that 90 degree crank angle and try to maximize normalized force (A.K.A. gravity), and say the knee should be right over the pedal. Problem: the rider's center of gravity probably isn't directly over the knee or pedal at that point. To figure out their true center of gravity you need to look at the upper body.

Back to the static case we go. Sit in a chair, rotate the hips forward, neutral spine (flat lower back, all angle happens at the hips), put your feet on the floor directly under your knees. Now lean forward with your arms in front of you. If your center of gravity extends beyond where your feet are one of two things is going to happen: A) you fire your quads, which keeps you from falling forward, or B) you fall on your face. Here's an example the KOPS people never thought of, if you have more lower back flexability or a longer torso, you're going to need more setback. Yes, upper body position plays a role in saddle to pedal relationship.

It costs you nothing to sit in a chair in a cycling position and explore the relationship of muscle usage to position, yet how many people do this? Move your feet too far out and notice how your hamstrings fire to stabalize, move your feet too far back and notice how your quads fire. Find that balance point where you can use your glutes to hold your body weight - if you can't do that forget about getting it right on the bike.

If you have a problem with it costing nothing, PM me and I'll let you know where you can send the check...

[OtayBW]

It costs you nothing to sit in a chair in a cycling position and explore the relationship of muscle usage to position, yet how many people do this? Move your feet too far out and notice how your hamstrings fire to stabalize, move your feet too far back and notice how your quads fire. Find that balance point where you can use your glutes to hold your body weight - if you can't do that forget about getting it right on the bike.

If you have a problem with it costing nothing, PM me and I'll let you know where you can send the check...
Interesting. So then how do you find your center of gravity on the bike? Sit on a trainer with level bike and legs at 9:00/3:00? Is there something you're looking for here? I've always felt like my arms are carrying too much weight and would like some guidelines for setting the saddle back a bit. Thx.

[sirroada]

I didn't realize your muscle-firing argument was underpinned by KOPS. I thought KOPS was pretty much discredited at this point, but I guess it still lives on. Steve Hogg, Peter White, and Keith Bontrager have all written about why they disregard KOPS.

Hey, I said I was ducking when I said this! ;)

[Ti Designs]

Interesting. So then how do you find your center of gravity on the bike? Sit on a trainer with level bike and legs at 9:00/3:00? Is there something you're looking for here? I've always felt like my arms are carrying too much weight and would like some guidelines for setting the saddle back a bit. Thx.


Sitting on a chair and doing this is the static case, and it's easy to understand 'cause it's damn hard to live your life without sitting. The next case to explore is the static case on the bike. I block off the pedals at 9:00 and 3:00 (a stool under the forward pedal works, make sure your heel can also rest on the same surface) It's only one leg holding up your body weight, but it's the same thing. This is where it gets a bit tricky 'cause so many people get on the bike and think it's all about pushing down, in which case the quads fire. The other common case is where I say "lift your weight off your hands", their back curves as they try to use their core to hold their spine up - it's really not a core exersize. Look at your position on the chair first (the big mirror helps), then get on the bike and use the same position. When you get it right is should feel the same, and you should be able to take almost all of your weight off the bars.

The dynamic case is a bit tougher - if you want to make the trip to Belmont I can work with you on this. First you need to define a range of motion. I always use 45 degrees up to 45 degrees down as the target range - you don't want to be pushing straight down at the top or bottom. So the idea is to put the bike in the largest gear so it can support your body weight, bring the pedal to 45 degrees up, and just take the weight off the bars without changing your position. If gravity still works, your upper body weight will push the pedal down, no help needed from the rider. When the pedal gets to 45 degrees down, put a little body weight on the bars, bring the weight back up, and wait for the pedal to reach 45 degrees up on the other side and do the same thing.

If you get this right you'll notice a few things. 1) you're turning the biggest gear on the bike without trying - that's free power. 2) no weight on the bars for at least 50% of the pedal stroke - that's comfort. 3) very little knee strain. That's a lack of tension on the connective tissue over the kneecap. 4) you can now climb a hill for minutes on end without your quads burning.

[OtayBW]

Sitting on a chair and doing this is the static case, and it's easy to understand 'cause it's damn hard to live your life without sitting. The next case to explore is the static case on the bike. I block off the pedals at 9:00 and 3:00 (a stool under the forward pedal works, make sure your heel can also rest on the same surface) It's only one leg holding up your body weight, but it's the same thing. This is where it gets a bit tricky 'cause so many people get on the bike and think it's all about pushing down, in which case the quads fire. The other common case is where I say "lift your weight off your hands", their back curves as they try to use their core to hold their spine up - it's really not a core exersize. Look at your position on the chair first (the big mirror helps), then get on the bike and use the same position. When you get it right is should feel the same, and you should be able to take almost all of your weight off the bars.

The dynamic case is a bit tougher - if you want to make the trip to Belmont I can work with you on this. First you need to define a range of motion. I always use 45 degrees up to 45 degrees down as the target range - you don't want to be pushing straight down at the top or bottom. So the idea is to put the bike in the largest gear so it can support your body weight, bring the pedal to 45 degrees up, and just take the weight off the bars without changing your position. If gravity still works, your upper body weight will push the pedal down, no help needed from the rider. When the pedal gets to 45 degrees down, put a little body weight on the bars, bring the weight back up, and wait for the pedal to reach 45 degrees up on the other side and do the same thing.

If you get this right you'll notice a few things. 1) you're turning the biggest gear on the bike without trying - that's free power. 2) no weight on the bars for at least 50% of the pedal stroke - that's comfort. 3) very little knee strain. That's a lack of tension on the connective tissue over the kneecap. 4) you can now climb a hill for minutes on end without your quads burning.
Interesting. I think the first thing I'll try is static on the bike. If I find some improvement, I'll try the dynamic. I guess you have just a moment of support while you're balanced in a high gear, but maybe that's enough to get a sense of things. Unfortunately, I am now out of the country for the next 3 weeks without a ride, so it will have to wait. And by the time I get back, I will probably be pleased to be able to climb for minutes on end. :crap:

I may think about looking you up sometime in Belmont. I've got a couple of bikes from down there, so I'm familiar with the turf. Thanks much.

[jamesau]

Ti Designs, I appreciate your insight in this and other threads.

You mentioned Stars and Watercarriers. I think the opening seconds in Part 3 here (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Stars+Watercarriers+Merckx+&search_type=&aq=f) illustrates what you're talking about. ...more to think about and work on this off-season, thanks.

[1centaur]

The other common case is where I say "lift your weight off your hands", their back curves as they try to use their core to hold their spine up - it's really not a core exersize.

If this occurs, is it definitive proof of saddle too far forward?

[serpico7]

Now that I've got a trainer, I can really work on changing my pedaling technique. Using a suggestion in one of Ti Design's posts, I put the bike in the biggest gear and tried to focus on using my glutes on the downstroke. It was easier than trying to do it in a small gear because this turns over too quickly and my body just goes back to doing what it knows, i.e., using the quads.

While my cadence was very slow and I only did it for a few minutes (going to take awhile to get my butt reacclimatized to the rock hard Toupe saddle), I thought I could feel my glutes working. Most importantly, afterward, my knees didn't hurt, which they most assuredly would have from trying to turn the biggest gear had I done so using solely/mostly quads.

Ti Designs, in one of your posts, you described the sensation of letting your torso weight fall onto the pedal on the downstroke. I didn't get that sensation, though it could be because I was so focused on trying to extend my hip on the downstroke. Does the torso actually drop on the downstroke?