OT: Please help the people of Haiti

[Smiley]

Its truly a bad situation that will only get worse. Puts wars and other stuff in perspective. Give to help others that can't truly help themselves. My wife who works non profit tells me the best way it to donate to organizations that already have a presence in the country, Save the Children is one of many doing a good job already in the country. One can't help but be moved by what pictures we see on air. God bless the people of Haiti.

[djg]

Thanks for posting this Smiley. Haiti is the poorest country in the hemisphere. If you've been, you've seen it: many, many people live with no margin of error, no backup either public or private. Doctors without borders/medecins sans frontiers is another possible organization.

[Ray]

Thanks for posting this Smiley. Haiti is the poorest country in the hemisphere. If you've been, you've seen it: many, many people live with no margin of error, no backup either public or private. Doctors without borders/medecins sans frontiers is another possible organization.
Hugely important - I don't know how they can even begin to organize a rescue/relief effort this big in the midst of so much concentrated destruction, but its critical. I've been to the Dominican Republic, which is about as poverty stricken as anything I've seen outside of the Arabic countries in the Middle East, and everyone who's been to both refers to the huge differences between Haiti on the western part of the island and the DR on the eastern portion, that the DR is like a paradise in comparison. Hard to imagine how poor Haiti was before this disaster and how devastated it will be now.

-Ray

[paczki]

Partners in Health has the greatest quantity of aid workers there and is also very much worth a donation (as is Oxfam, and all those mentioned):

http://www.pih.org/home.html

[Ray]

For those not too offended that it comes from the Huffington Post, this page has a good, up to date, list of organizations you can reliably give to for earthquake relief.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/haiti-earthquake-relief-h_n_421014.html

I'm sure there are other good similar pages, but this is one I was linked to yesterday.

There will be a lot of scam organizations trying to take advantage of this, but there are a lot of good organizations - just make sure you know something about who you're giving to. I started giving to Oxfam because they emphasize getting water, food, and shelter to those in the immediate aftermath and they've had a big presence in Haiti for years, so they probably know the territory they're dealing with very well. But emergency medical providers like PIH are also critically important.

-Ray

[Tobias]

I feel safe with Red Cross, and they are asking for cash donations. It appears they prefer to buy food and supplies there because it is cheaper than shipping and also helps the local economy.
I've been to the Dominican Republic, which is about as poverty stricken as anything I've seen outside of the Arabic countries in the Middle East......
DR is like a paradise in comparison.
Agree, Haiti has always needed a lot of help and now far more. After the immediate needs are met I hope we help them set up a better government. That seems to be the biggest difference between DR and Haiti.

[Louis]

Partners in Health has the greatest quantity of aid workers there and is also very much worth a donation (as is Oxfam, and all those mentioned):

http://www.pih.org/home.html

Agreed. I can recommend PIH with 100% confidence. They are a tremendous organization. (My sister used to work for them.)

Louis

[dekindy]

How do you help a country that has a corrupt government and 80% of the population lives below the poverty line (according to statistics flashed across one of the news networks this morning)?

[Louis]

How do you help a country that has a corrupt government and 80% of the population lives below the poverty line (according to statistics flashed across one of the news networks this morning)?

What does that have to do with helping a woman with her femur sticking out of her leg or a child with a crushed hand or a man trapped under a ton of concrete?

[Louis]

How do you help a country that has a corrupt government and 80% of the population lives below the poverty line (according to statistics flashed across one of the news networks this morning)?

Now that I've had a chance to think about it, you're right - I think we should spend the next six months debating it. Or just ignore them. That would be even better.

This is disgusting in so many ways.

Louis

[djg]

How do you help a country that has a corrupt government and 80% of the population lives below the poverty line (according to statistics flashed across one of the news networks this morning)?

Political issues confound many relief issues and add cost to many more. And the logistics in this instance are a nightmare. For all of that, some organizations have a very good track record when it comes to delivering critically needed food and/or medicines and health care services to individual human persons in need, even under very difficult circumstances.

There are all sorts of ways to investigate (and measure) the efficiency of organizations to which you might want to send charitable support. I think folks here have mentioned some fine ones. You can do additional legwork if you want and you can give whatever seems to you best. I've looked at some of the literature in making my annual list, filling out my combined federal campaign form, etc. (and have supported a couple of the organizations mentioned accordingly) and I've given an immediate donation to one of those that I mentioned.

People are suffering. Sometimes it makes more sense to ask about the relative efficiency of a response, and sometimes less. It's your call.

[Tobias]

What does that have to do with helping a woman with her femur sticking out of her leg or a child with a crushed hand or a man trapped under a ton of concrete?
Corrupt governments “can” leverage disasters to help themselves at the expense of those helping if they so choose.

In this case we need to help the injured, hungry, and homeless first and worry about corruption later. Fortunately Haiti’s military is not powerful enough to pose a thread to any of the countries giving aid.

[Tobias]

Now that I've had a chance to think about it, you're right - I think we should spend the next six months debating it. Or just ignore them. That would be even better.

This is disgusting in so many ways.

Louis
This is out of line in my opinion. It was a fair question, whether you think misguided or not, and your reply too harsh. This is not the time to drive a deeper wedge between our political ideologies.

[dekindy]

What does that have to do with helping a woman with her femur sticking out of her leg or a child with a crushed hand or a man trapped under a ton of concrete?

It has everything to do with it. I did not say not to help them. I asked how you are going to do it.

It took forever to get aid to Katrina victims even with all the infrastructure and orgainization and resources available not to mention that they were right here in the United States. The types of injuries these folks suffered require response times measured in minutes and it will takes days and weeks to get any meaningful help there. As an example they said it would take days to get an aircraft carrier there and even longer for a hospital ship.

I have never been there but if it is as impoverished as they portray there were already no roads, sewers or sanitation, hospitals or heavy equipment, and nowhere close by to take people to get them away from the devastation or to get those resources. If I understand correctly there is only one major airport and a local man that was there when it happened said that it was completely demolished and he and his mother-in-law were lucky to be alive. Apparently they have been able to evacuate a few Americans.

One analyst stated that the the dead alone killed alone as a percentage of the Haitain population would be equiivalent to 3,000,000 Americans being killed in one day. We are not talking about a tornado that tore down a neighborhood. We are talking about an entire country that was below the poverty line losing what little precious resources it had.

So I will ask again. How do you help someone in their situation? Because I would not have a clue where to start. How do you get food, medical, equipment, etc. to a place like that on a massive scale and in time to make a difference? I assume that it is impossible to do since our response to Katrina was so poor despite all our resources, preparation, logistics, and days of advance warning since it was a hurricane and not an earthquake.

I watch shows everyday that say that the midwest from St. Louis to Memphis will be devastated by an earthquake someday and we are not even remotely prepared to handle it.

[wc1934]

I was told that UPS is shipping items for free provided the donations go thru the Red Cross. If you have any questions, please call UPS directly at 1-800-742-5877.

[rugbysecondrow]

http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/menuitem.94aae335470e233f6cf911df43181aa0/?vgnextoid=15c0c5a210826210VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCR D

Send a $10 Donation by Texting ‘Haiti’ to 90999

Editorial note: You can make a donation by calling 1-800-REDCROSS or 1-800-257-7575 (Spanish) or click on the Donate Now button.

[dekindy]

Now that I've had a chance to think about it, you're right - I think we should spend the next six months debating it. Or just ignore them. That would be even better.

This is disgusting in so many ways.

Louis

I belong to Rotary.
Rotary International is finishing a project to eradicate polio from the planet. They have been working toward this goal for the last 20+ years.

Our local Rotary Club is raising money with a goal of digging 100 water wells to help the people of Sierre Leone, the world's poorest nation.

Our local Rotary Club members routinely brings bags of food items to be donated to the local Red Cross. In fact I am taking time away from my family to work at the Colts game this Saturday night and also work a total of 4 days per year at Indianapolis Motor Speedway events. We work at official souvenir stands and get sales commissions to raise the money for these and many local projects.

Are you better than me for wanting to spend thousands to tens of thousands of dollars to save one person from a quick death as opposed to spending that same money to keep thousands of people from dying a slow death?

[BumbleBeeDave]

Please, let's keep it civil and think carefully before we post, folks.

As for my own two cents, I will try to get whatever possible positive there is out of this huge tragedy for this incredibly poor country. I can think of no other nation that seems never in its history to have been able to catch a good break.

I would venture a guess that the huge majority of Americans don't know anything about Haiti or it's long history of poverty and oppression. If there is anything at all good in this situation, maybe it's that more Americans--and the world at large--will now know enough about the situation there that they will actively do something to deliver long-term help.

BBD

[veggieburger]

http://www.crwrc.org/news.cfm?newsid=1722&section=crcna

A smaller, Christian organization with people on the ground. Very trustworthy, something to consider.

[Dekonick]

I have offered to go - waiting to see if our department is sending folks - I know several jurisdictions around us have (FEMA teams) -

Being fluent in French I hope they use me.

I also plan on giving cash (that's what these organizations really need) to help out.

[BumbleBeeDave]

How DO you help when the situation is so bad? By all means it's good to help with immediate aid, but what good does that do if it only supplies temporary help and six months from now the TV crews have moved on and everything goes back to its usual awful state.

Give to organizations that are rendering immediate aid, but also consider looking for organizations that have rendered long term aid in the past and will continue to do so.

BBD

[jmc22]

Lance Armstrong, in Australia prior to the Tour Down Under, pledged $250,000 for victims of the Haiti earthquake on Thursday. He urged the public to come forward with further donations.

Armstrong said the 7.0 magnitude earthquake, which left more than 100,000 feared dead, was “devastating” for the impoverished Caribbean country.

“Over the years with political turmoil, poverty and now the earthquake it’s devastating,” he told reporters.

“On behalf of Livestrong (Armstrong’s cancer charity) we’ll be donating $250,000 to several organizations that are doing a lot of work down there, one of which is the Clinton Foundation.”

:beer:

[Ray]

Lance Armstrong, in Australia prior to the Tour Down Under, pledged $250,000 for victims of the Haiti earthquake on Thursday. He urged the public to come forward with further donations.
Dammit, stuff like this makes it difficult to hate him adequately.

-Ray

[LegendRider]

http://www.crwrc.org/news.cfm?newsid=1722&section=crcna

A smaller, Christian organization with people on the ground. Very trustworthy, something to consider.

WorldVision is another Christian organization that does exceptionally good work in times of disaster.
http://www.worldvision.org/

[dave thompson]

I've donated to the Red Cross. Now I feel that I can say...let's send Pat Robertson.

[Sandy]

If you want to start a thread relative to efficiency, corruption, effectiveness, long term solutions, or whatever, please do so. Start a new thread and expand the focus. But there is a remarkable immediate need for assistance for the Haitian people. Please try to focus on that herein.


Thanks!


Sandy

[veggieburger]

How DO you help when the situation is so bad? By all means it's good to help with immediate aid, but what good does that do if it only supplies temporary help and six months from now the TV crews have moved on and everything goes back to its usual awful state.

Give to organizations that are rendering immediate aid, but also consider looking for organizations that have rendered long term aid in the past and will continue to do so.

BBD

Exactly. At the moment Haiti needs short term aid - water, shelter, food, protection. But even a year of rice, beans and water won't mean squat 5 years from now. Generally organizations that support schools, farming initiatives and medical programs have a good long term vision.

Give generously, and if you are the praying type, remember Haiti!

[rugbysecondrow]

For those in the know, for something like this event, will Haiti draw from or request blood from the US? That may be a dumb and elementary question, but that might be a great way to help out.

With the Red Cross already there and expending funds, I donated there as well. I don't know if it is the best, but he easiest and more recongnizalbe way to do so.

[drewski]

I have a cousin, Michele Foust Broemmelsiek, who is not working in Haiti,
but is in charge of delivering aid to primarily African countries. I have absolutely no affiliation with the Catholic Church. However, knowing how professional and dedicated her organization is, and with 50 years of experience in delivering aid to Haiti I wish to encourage anyone who has any qualms about giving $$$$ to opportunists, to give to CRS with very high assurance that those funds will be put to good use. 93% of all money
is used for end users of charity relief , 4% fund raising 3% administrative cost.

They have a high degree of transparency and accountability.

http://www.bbb.org/charity-reviews/national/religious/catholic-relief-services-in-baltimore-md-475

http://crs.org/accountability/

https://secure.crs.org/site/Donation2?df_id=3181&3181.donation=form1




Thanks,

Andrew Israel

[dekindy]

I watched the coverage for the first time this afternoon. I did not realize that it had already been 48 hours. If you took all the damage caused by the tsunami of a few years ago and put it in one place, it still would not come close to the devastation I saw on tv today.

The graphic descriptions of the smell of death and the desperation that is setting in is hard to fathom. I was having second thoughts that I was too pessimistic about the ability to get relief there. The fact that there is only one functioning ambulance in the country and that there is no visible civil law or government to communicate with is just beyond my comprehension confirms more than the worst fears that I could have imagined.

I just looked up and confirmed the 1989 San Francisco earthquake was a 7.1 magnitude and the Haitian quake was 7.0. It just does not seem possible that there could be that much difference in damage between the two areas. Was the Haitian quake over a much broader area or is that area much more geologically unstable?

[that guy]

I donated through UNICEF.

I prefer stick to the larger, well-known charities. Something about the "Text-to-help" thing strikes me as sketchy.

All contributions will help, so I feel better doing something that I don't have to worry about getting through.

[Richard]

As far as I understand, the Haiti quake was near the surface, only 6 miles down. The SF quake was deeper. I am sure there is someone better versed in geology on this site than I. Add to that the much poorer construction techniques and the extremely dense population that poverty begets and this is the result.

Notwithstanding the myriad systemic problems, I SCREAM...GIVE!!!

[Ray]

I just looked up and confirmed the 1989 San Francisco earthquake was a 7.1 magnitude and the Haitian quake was 7.0. It just does not seem possible that there could be that much difference in damage between the two areas. Was the Haitian quake over a much broader area or is that area much more geologically unstable?
I think the biggest difference is the lack of building codes in Haiti. San Francisco knew about its likelihood of a big quake and the buildings were built to withstand them. Haiti had NO building code in the nation or in the city. The US embassy was no doubt built to US government standards, with some uniform building code requirements. It came through unscathed from what I've read. Most of the buildings in the city just collapsed. A similar quake in San Francisco 100 years ago would have the same effect, no doubt. Regulations really can make a big difference sometimes.

-Ray

[pbbob]

You may donate through the centerforinquiry.net
100% of the $ goes to doctors without borders. If you ask why not give directly to doctors without borders I can tell you off the air.
Also may I suggest americanhumanist.org as another avenue to donate.
and please, no one else suggest praying as a relief measure.

[Ray]

I think the biggest difference is the lack of building codes in Haiti. San Francisco knew about its likelihood of a big quake and the buildings were built to withstand them.
Here's a more complete explanation, with lack of building codes one part of the puzzle:

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-vine/the-unnatural-side-the-haiti-quake

-Ray

[veggieburger]

You may donate through the centerforinquiry.net
100% of the $ goes to doctors without borders. If you ask why not give directly to doctors without borders I can tell you off the air.
Also may I suggest americanhumanist.org as another avenue to donate.
and please, no one else suggest praying as a relief measure.

No one else suggest praying as a relief measure? I think there will be many who will disagree with you, pbbob.

I say if you can't give, pray. If you can give, pray.

[Rueda Tropical]

Doctors without Borders (http://doctorswithoutborders.org/) and Save the Children (http://www.savethechildren.org/) where on the ground before the quake and have excellent ratings as to actually helping people and not to administrative overhead.

[dancinkozmo]

...buying bike parts seems irrelevant in the wake of this to say the least, but if anyone was planning on purchasing something anyway, velo orange and rivendell have teamed up and will donate 10% of their total sales thursday and friday to earthquake relief.

[jmeloy]

and give! I just gave to Partners in Health. We can argue later.

[rugbysecondrow]

and please, no one else suggest praying as a relief measure.


No offense my fellow Howard County paison, but this statement provide no value. For all the families who have lost their loved ones and homes, for rescue workers searching for survivors or trying to deliver the dead to their families, friends that I know who have family there who have not been heard from,...prayer may be all they have, it may be all somebody in the US can give.
.

[rwsaunders]

A good site for understanding just how powerful Mother Nature can be...220 earthquakes today in North America...that's today...

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/region/N_America.php

[SEABREEZE]

Here's a more complete explanation, with lack of building codes one part of the puzzle:

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-vine/the-unnatural-side-the-haiti-quake

-Ray
Having traveled to both borders of the island of Espanola, many times,
I can understand with world funds funneling in, the govt buildings destroyed could adhere to strick building codes, but how in the world will the impoverished of that country be able to conform. Most have metal huts, cardboard or sheets to seperate rooms in the dweling. The more fortunate inhabitants who did have concrete dwellings, will be lucky if they can even afford to rebuild never mind the xtra cost to conform.

With all that said, they cant afford not to. It's going to be very interesting to see how all this unfolds.

We can discuss the past, present and future political bureacraut red tape, bull****, co$$uption of that country at another time.

At this time the most signifigant issue is to search, rescue ,and save lives,
and treat the injured.

[vqdriver]

for all the grumping about America around the world, i don't see anyone else there owning this situation the NEXT DAY. i'm sure international aid will trickle in, but nothing like the US has already invested in time and resources.

urban S&R? there. and fast enough that it's meaningful for survivors. awesome.

however you wanna help, do it. little could make it worse.

[Dekonick]

The US always is first in, last recognized. All of that aside, there is going to be a huge need for the re-building of infrastructure. The US has the infrastructure to get aid around the globe quickly, but once the initial rescue and clean-up is finished, it will be a long time before Haiti will be back on track. Corruption, AIDS, poverty, you name it. I still say give as you can. As much as I would love to go over and search, I realize the biggest thing I can do is donate funds. Where to donate, that is another issue. I support the Red Cross because they help globally. Last week the Red Cross was there for a family who lost their entire home and belongings. Even before we had packed up our hose, they were with the grieving family. They seem to be willing to help anywhere, the US included. My kind of folks.

As far as blood - it is always a good time to donate. I doubt there will be a big need for blood in Haiti, rather a need for drinking water and food, but blood is always welcome and needed locally.

A sad situation. Lets see if we can prove the world wrong and help out the folks in Haiti and elsewhere.

[93legendti]

Actually, Israel also sent planes full of medical personnel, supplies and search and rescue personnel:

...the IDF delegation will build a Medical Corps field hospital and will aid in Search and Rescue missions. The delegation departed in ELAL charter airplanes...carrying Medical Corps and Home Front Command personnel, and the medical and logistical equipment to be used in the field hospital.

The delegation consists of approximately 220 people, among whom are Search and Rescue teams of the Home Front Command and medical teams of the Head Medical Officer headquarters.

Delegation members are preparing to stay in Haiti for at least two weeks. At the end of this period there will be a situation evaluation to determine if the delegation will continue their activities in the region.

The field hospital will have 40 doctors, 24 nurses, medics, X-Ray technicians and paramedics. Also to be brought over from Israel to Haiti are: a pharmacy, X-Ray equipment, an interview room for registering wounded people, two surgery rooms, a NICU (neonatal intensive care unit), a pediatrics ward, a maternity ward, a surgical ward and an internal care ward. According to the assessment, the field hospital will treat approximately 500 people per day in addition to performing preliminary surgeries. At this stage about 10 tons of medical equipment will be flown to Haiti from Israel. In total, the field hospital will have about 90 beds, 66 intensive care beds and 2 delivery beds.

In addition, the delegation will be joined by a psychiatrist and a Mental Health Officer who will treat the local wounded population, and if need by, they will also treat the Israeli delegation members.

The Search and Rescue personnel of the Home Front Command will include about 30 searchers and tens of operations personnel, logistics and operational intelligence officials, computer networking and communication department personnel, and search dogs. Additional experts in the search and rescue field and in population aid will join as well...

The commander of the field hospital to be built in the area, Lt. Col. Dr. Itzik Kries, told the IDF Website, “We are going to build a very large and diversified hospital in the area, which will be able to treat hundreds of injured people. 10 hours after our arrival it will operate in a basic way, and 15-20 hours form our arrival it will be fully operational.”

The commander of the Medical Center, Lt. Col. Moshe Meyuchad from the Medical Corps explained, “The majority of the assistance being sent over is from the existing equipment of the Medical Equipment Center. We are sending over all of the medicines that exist in the hospitals, tens of thousands of syringes, CPR equipment, oxygen bags, respirators and much more equipment. We are also sending equipment that is non-medical, such as sheets, pajamas, crutches, walkers, diapers and pacifiers...

The hospital we will build will give them more then aid, it will give them quality treatment and will save lives...”

My cousin's search and rescue unit was sent to Haiti.

I commend the President on his statement that this was a time for American leadership.

[Ahneida Ride]

Prayer restored my eyesight. I do not underestimate it's power.

[Ray]

Having traveled to both borders of the island of Espanola, many times,
I can understand with world funds funneling in, the govt buildings destroyed could adhere to strick building codes, but how in the world will the impoverished of that country be able to conform. Most have metal huts, cardboard or sheets to seperate rooms in the dweling. The more fortunate inhabitants who did have concrete dwellings, will be lucky if they can even afford to rebuild never mind the xtra cost to conform.

With all that said, they cant afford not to. It's going to be very interesting to see how all this unfolds.

We can discuss the past, present and future political bureacraut red tape, bull****, co$$uption of that country at another time.

At this time the most signifigant issue is to search, rescue ,and save lives,
and treat the injured.
Poverty and lack of building codes go hand in hand. Not just the metal huts and other makeshift shelters, but even their concrete buildings were built waaaay below anything that would be permitted in the states. Because at least they could afford, over time, to build those structures. People in poverty always seem to get the worst of natural disasters because they can least afford to prepare for them, day to day survival being the order of the day almost every day. I wasn't intending to discuss the red tape or lack of government and I DAMN SURE wasn't using it as any kind of excuse not to give - I think we should all give as much as we can and more than we think we can. Just trying to explain to a previous poster part of why this quake was so much more catastrophic than a quake of greater force in San Francisco in 1989.

-Ray

[Rueda Tropical]

and give! I just gave to Partners in Health. We can argue later.

This is a great organization rated 4 stars by charity navigator with 94.8% of funds going to work. They have already have a network of clinics staffed with Haitian doctors and work with the Ministry of health to try and build a local health infrastructure that can function independent of foreign aid.

[SamIAm]

and please, no one else suggest praying as a relief measure.


For believers, prayer is THE most important thing to do right now. If you don't believe, fine, but don't discourage others. Prayer is not meant to be a substitute for action, but rather a request that the action be properly and effectively utilized and magnified.

[93legendti]

Charity Navigator is easy to use. If you have any questions about an organization, it is easy to check it out on CN.

[RPS]

Poverty and lack of building codes go hand in hand.
Precisely – as do many other things. Money can fix a lot of problems and avoid others as well.

Unfortunately, while they are now receiving emergency earthquake aid from dozens of countries, their long-term poverty appears ingrained. They need our immediate financial help for sure, but also need assistance to overcome their dire poverty. As I understand it Haiti depends on foreign aid for budget support on an ongoing basis.

[Ray]

For believers, prayer is THE most important thing to do right now. If you don't believe, fine, but don't discourage others. Prayer is not meant to be a substitute for action, but rather a request that the action be properly and effectively utilized and magnified.
I gotta agree with this. I'm not a believer in the conventional sense and I'm not one who prays in any conventional sense either. But as long as its not used as a substitute for giving, I don't see any way it can do any harm for those who believe to pray on it also. And if the people in Haiti are believers and they know a lot of people are praying for them around the world, that alone will probably give them some small (or possibly not so small) measure of additional strength to deal with the ongoing horror they're going to be dealing with in the coming weeks and months.

I just don't see a downside, despite my aggressive agnostic tendencies.

-Ray

[tv_vt]

I'm donating to Partners in Health. They're already on the ground in Haiti.

Partners In Health, https://donate.pih.org/page/contribute/haiti_earthquake

Ever read the book by Tracy Kidder about Paul Farmer? I'm blanking on the book's title, but it's all about health care in Haiti.

Thom

[Vancouverdave]

Just sent a donation. Thanks for the Partners in Health link, TV.

[pbbob]

say you can't give any $ to a relief org. and you can't even donate that century t-shirt whose design is too horrible to contemplate. what you can do is ask someone or 5 someones to donate to pih.org or something else and ask them to ask 5 other someones to do the same.
prayer isn't going to prevent diarrheal diseases or do anything to prevent dengue or malaria.
So there. there is one idea that is more constructive than prayer. anyone got any others?

[veggieburger]

Those are great ideas pbbob, but many people believe in the power of prayer, so why discourage it? No one is asking you to, if it's not your thing.

If you don't agree with it, lovely, but don't get your knickers in a knot if others do.

[snah]

Those are great ideas pbbob, but many people believe in the power of prayer, so why discourage it? No one is asking you to, if it's not your thing.

If you don't agree with it, lovely, but don't get your knickers in a knot if others do.

Agreed 1,000x's!!!

[pbbob]

I discourage it because people and animals are suffering and dying and as a human being that bothers me a little bit.
A study involving intercessory prayer showed that outcomes were worse.
I discourage it because it isn't rational and irrational beliefs need to be discussed and confronted.

This plus the whole subject of belief without evidence, supernatural beings that we know nothing about, the problem of evil, can be discussed off the air or on a long slow winter ride here in west howard county.
The weather report makes me believe the ice will be melted by saturday, possibly to return on sunday.
End of thread drift.

[Louis]

People will believe what they want to believe. By its very definition faith is not rational.

As long as the result is not inaction or a reduction in effort, I say pray all you like, but pass the ammunition (or relief supplies, as the case may be).

The long-term effects of belief in an all-powereful being or an afterlife vs how we handle issues here and now are probably beyond the scope of this forum, but obviously events like this and the Holocaust are difficult for anyone to understand.

In the meantime, I'm happy that my parents are safe. I'm certain that my father believes that that is because the Virgin Mary was looking after them. On the other hand, I'm certain that my mother believes that that is due to a combination of geology and the quality of construction of their home.

Louis

[Blue Jays]

"...A study involving intercessory prayer showed that outcomes were worse.
I discourage it because it isn't rational and irrational beliefs need to be discussed and confronted..."I am a non-practicing Episcopalian.
In 2006, my very devout aunt was given 6 weeks to live due to advanced-stage uterine and ovarian cancer.
Well, there she was, still going to church with her friends 25 months later.
These are tough times, one shouldn't discourage anything that can potentially help. Like I said, I'm not religious, yet it can't hurt.

[SEABREEZE]

Poverty and lack of building codes go hand in hand. Not just the metal huts and other makeshift shelters, but even their concrete buildings were built waaaay below anything that would be permitted in the states. Because at least they could afford, over time, to build those structures. People in poverty always seem to get the worst of natural disasters because they can least afford to prepare for them, day to day survival being the order of the day almost every day. I wasn't intending to discuss the red tape or lack of government and I DAMN SURE wasn't using it as any kind of excuse not to give - I think we should all give as much as we can and more than we think we can. Just trying to explain to a previous poster part of why this quake was so much more catastrophic than a quake of greater force in San Francisco in 1989.

-Ray

Ray, I happen to agree with you on all points. My comments on building codes and any other comment I made in the post. had no reflection as to the fact you posted it, nor to critisize you

If you look at the second paragraph, I say they cant afford not to, thus agreeing with you. However my other comment, it remains to be seen how this unfolds , reflect on how the powers to be uses the funds to truly help the inhabitants rebuild.

The third paragraph was to reiterate what Sandy and others have said earlier in the thread, lets keep it to helping, we can create a new thread to discusss any and all aspects of the Hatians situation.

The most important paragraph was the last , in which I leave you with;

At this time the most signifigant issue is to search, rescue ,and save lives, and treat the injured.

[93legendti]

http://www.google.com/relief/haitiearthquake/
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1263147904639&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[veggieburger]

I discourage it because people and animals are suffering and dying and as a human being that bothers me a little bit.
A study involving intercessory prayer showed that outcomes were worse.
I discourage it because it isn't rational and irrational beliefs need to be discussed and confronted.

This plus the whole subject of belief without evidence, supernatural beings that we know nothing about, the problem of evil, can be discussed off the air or on a long slow winter ride here in west howard county.
The weather report makes me believe the ice will be melted by saturday, possibly to return on sunday.
End of thread drift.

Really? Please send me a link or book reference to those studies - that's totally contrary to what I have read!

I am a believer who has seen prayer do some pretty miraculous things. But I don't proselytize...I simply don't have the words. Just...please don't think every Christian is a Pat Robertson, or someone who sits on his hands and prays.

:banana:

[dave thompson]

I discourage it because people and animals are suffering and dying and as a human being that bothers me a little bit.
A study involving intercessory prayer showed that outcomes were worse.
I discourage it because it isn't rational and irrational beliefs need to be discussed and confronted.

This plus the whole subject of belief without evidence, supernatural beings that we know nothing about, the problem of evil, can be discussed off the air or on a long slow winter ride here in west howard county.
The weather report makes me believe the ice will be melted by saturday, possibly to return on sunday.
End of thread drift.
Entirely your opinion. State it as such rather than fact. You don't know if prayer helps or not but at worst it certainly makes one aware of the circumstances.

I believe in the power of prayer and I also believe in the power of money given to organizations that can best serve those who need the relief. Do both to maximum you are able.

[veggieburger]

Well said Dave.

[Louis]

Entirely your opinion. State it as such rather than fact. You don't know if prayer helps or not but at worst it certainly makes one aware of the circumstances.

Dave,

Actually there have been quite a few studies (I don't have the reference in front of me) so there is science-based evidence out there on this.

In my opinion having this sort of discussion is a looser for those who back prayer because you have no choice but to try to conduct it on the other guy's turf (trying to use science to support a religious position) and at its core religious belief is based on faith, not science. Last I checked the two don't mix well.

Louis

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . could we perhaps start a separate thread on this expanding debate between the metaphysical and the scientific? Give money, give goods, give prayers--whatever you think helps. But let's not argue about which is better. It seems out of place in this thread.

BBD

[veggieburger]

Dave,

Actually there have been quite a few studies (I don't have the reference in front of me) so there is science-based evidence out there on this.

In my opinion having this sort of discussion is a looser for those who back prayer because you have no choice but to try to conduct it on the other guy's turf (trying to use science to support a religious position) and at its core religious belief is based on faith, not science. Last I checked the two don't mix well.

Louis


How do you figure? Pbbob sent me a link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

Fantastic! Scientists attempting to disprove the benefits of prayer. Yet a simple google query will give you page after page of miraculous healings and divine intercession.

Some people do not respond well to radiation treatment or penicillin (for whatever reason) and not everyone responds to prayer (for whatever reason). One doesn't cancel the other out, and not being able to explain something does not make it false. Anyone who has been seriously ill on the receiving end of a doctor's needle can tell you that science isn't black and white. My grandfather was given a cocktail of terrible drugs that did more harm than good simply because he was misdiagnosed. Does that mean those drugs were bad and should never be used again? Not at all.

Yes, prayer is associated with faith, and it's impossible to have a real debate about Christianity without first agreeing that the Bible is the source of Truth. But this discussion isn't even close to being there yet. Prayer has had wonderful results for tens of thousands of people...and that's straight from their mouths, not a Pfizer-sponsored study!

[Louis]

a simple google query will give you page after page of miraculous healings and divine intercession

I don't think that that's how serious medical research is conducted.

I'm sure plenty of folks who've prayed have won the lottery the next day. That doesn't mean God forced the ping-pong balls to fall just so, in order for them to win.

So, exactly how many angels can dance on the head of that pin? ;)

[Sandy]

I asked some posts ago for this thread to remain focused on charity for Haiti. I also said that if anyone wanted to expand the focus of the thread, that would be fine, but not in this thread, but by starting a new one. BBDave just reiterated that. But a few still want to focus on the value of religion.

Posts from moderators momentarily detract from the continuity and flow of a thread. Please understand that this thread will not continue in a debate on the value of religion. Please start a new OT thread on the topic if you want, but leave it alone in this one. I will not post this thought again.

Thanks.


Sandy

[BumbleBeeDave]

What he said, guys. This is a noble thread about helping people. Can't we keep it that way? A lock on this one would look pretty stupid.

BBD

I asked some posts ago for this thread to remain focused on charity for Haiti. I also said that if anyone wanted to expand the focus of the thread, that would be fine, but not in this thread, but by starting a new one. BBDave just reiterated that. But a few still want to focus on the value of religion.

Posts from moderators momentarily detract from the continuity and flow of a thread. Please understand that this thread will not continue in a debate on the value of religion. Please start a new OT thread on the topic if you want, but leave it alone in this one. I will not post this thought again.

Thanks.


Sandy

[Louis]

This is a noble thread about helping people. Can't we keep it that way?

Dave, my take on things:

Even the most high-minded thread will eventually run it's course. Once everyone has said "Yes, contributing to help poor little Haiti is a good thing" it's natural for our thoughts to move on.

Believe me, I'm all for folks helping. I was born down there, grew up there, lived there until I came to the US to go to college, and my parents still live there. Yesterday and today my father was out looking for drinking water but has yet to find some. However, my parents are among the lucky folks. Their house is relatively intact and they have enough money to afford what will surely be the high prices to come.

The situation in Haiti is right at the top of my list of important issues, but once we've all agreed that contributing is the right thing to do, I think it's natural for the discussion to move to wider issues, some of which may be controversial.

Think of it this way: If we had not made our additional posts by how the thread might be off the front page. This way it's there for all to see and consider.

Louis

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . have it stay on the front page through being made a sticky than to have it stay there because people are arguing.

Additionally, in my experience as a moderator, once religion comes into the discussion passions ride and intelligent discourse falls.

BBD

[rugbysecondrow]

Bump :)

The title of the thread is "OT: Please help the people of Haiti". The opening statement by the OP even says, "God Bless the people of Haiti". So, if somebody wants to reference prayer as a way to help the people of Haiti, then so be it. I am not certain why a few think it is useful to then turn the discussion into why prayer is not helpful because it seems foolish to interject negativity into a discussion centered around goodwill. With that said, Louis is correct when he mentions there are only so many ways to say, "Yes I gave to .....".

I also think that this is in the General discussion area and sometimes discussions evolve. Not to tell the moderators what their role is, but if forum members are being respectful and polite, then, with all due respect, they should not be the thread drift police. Am I wrong?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . there is a bit of policing involved, though you could also call it many other things depending on your perspective.

It's not the mention of prayer that endangers this thread, it's the evolving debate. Myself and the other moderators have all been here for a long time (I joined in 2003). During all that time certain things have become pretty reliable. Threads having to do with politics or religion, or certain social subjects, such as race, abortion, the Middle East, etc., have a far higher probability of turning into flame wars. So when a thread starts drifting toward the same old flaming precipice, we notice and try to nudge it back toward reason and decorum. This one wasn't there yet by any means, but it was showing definite signs. If you wish to call that thread drift policing, with whatever negative connotations that brings up, then so be it.

Just keep in mind that this online forum does represent a retail company and as volunteers representing that retail business, we moderators have a responsibility to monitor content in a way that prevents undue embarrassment to Serotta. But also note that we do it without deleting threads or posts or editing posts without notice, as I have heard happens on other online forums. We also don't delete a thread if we lock it. It's still right there for all to see. And if forum members want to start a new thread to further politely discuss the same issue, then that's usually OK.

When a thread like this seems in danger of devolving in a way that might embarrass the forum, then I think we moderators are within our rights--and indeed have a duty-- to mention it and politely ask members to steer back toward original territory. The alternative would seem to be to outlaw OT threads, which would include this noble and caring request to do whatever you can to help Haitians.

BBD

[93legendti]

A ZAKA rescue unit, deployed at a collapsed multi-story university building, managed to extricate eight students from the rubble over the weekend - underlining the conviction among the Israeli rescue teams that it is not too late to save lives.

Here's another avenue for donations:
http://www.clintonbushhaitifund.org

[Pete Serotta]

The folks in Haiti need all the help that can be sent to them.


Please feel free to open another thread to continue discussion or to add to it.


THanks