metal/carbon frame pros & cons

[VTCaraco]

I understand all of the arguments that the design and builder make all the difference, but I'm curious what people see as the pros and cons of the various metals when mated to a carbon rear triangle.
From aluminum with carbon, to steel with carbon, to titanium with carbon ~ how are they different and how are they the same?


I'm looking for a new bike for this year (for enthusiast, not racing purposes) and really wonder what would work the best for me.

To the extent that it matters, I'll add that I'm an athletic 200 to 210 lbs, ride on New England asphalt, and I do need to work within reasonable budget constraints.

[avalonracing]

To the extent that it matters, I'll add that I'm an athletic 200 to 210 lbs, ride on New England asphalt, and I do need to work within reasonable budget constraints.

Based on that I would go all Ti or steel. Why bother with a more delicate material and extra joints.

[csm]

all ti. it's the new/old black.

[steveo]

I've been incredibly pleased with my steel/carbon IF Crown Jewel SEC (carbon seat stays).

[1centaur]

As the carbon guy here, I have to wonder why go the neither fish nor fowl route? Carbon rears IMO were put on metal fronts in an industry transition phase that most makers have passed by. For builders they might be cheaper or add marketing appeal (looking for customers who want some comfort but can't get their heads around all carbon), but I have NEVER (since that phase ended) heard any builder claim that a carbon rear turned out to be an optimal solution to everything. Instead, I just see them out there on the non-innovative, smaller brands as kind of an artifact of a time gone by.

My opinion is that materials ARE different, regardless of the builder, and you should seek the material (and builder) that works for you. The one, maybe, exception on mixed materials is differing lugs and tubes. Given that the joint plays a significant role in ride feel, I can see some tastes finding happiness on such a mix. I still suspect that lug/tube differences was part of a phase of transition and experimentation rather than a rigorous solution to a problem of the best means to an established end.

[Lifelover]

....Given that the joint plays a significant role in ride feel, I can see some tastes finding happiness on such a mix..


I'm quite sure that must builders that post here or across the hall would strongly disagree with that.

[Climb01742]

as with so many things, there is no general, definitive answer. only individual answers. meaning: there are great steel bikes. great ti bikes. great alu bikes. and great carbon bikes. then add how wheels impact how a frame rides. then add personal tastes. yikes. the oldest advice might still be the best: a test ride is the only "truth" there is. :crap:

[RADaines]

For me, another part of the equation is whether or not you can use a stock geometry. If you need custom, then that must factor into the cost and may limit your choices on material. Personally, I would prefer a great fitting steel frame over a poor fitting carbon (or mixed material) frame. Comfort and fit should be your first consideration.

[Elefantino]

Other than titanium's natural ability to attract members of the opposite sex, I'm with Climb.

[RADaines]

Other than titanium's natural ability to attract members of the opposite sex

Unfortunately, I have not found this to be true in my experience. :confused:

[paczki]

I'm quite sure that must builders that post here or across the hall would strongly disagree with that.

Not Serotta!

[sg8357]

Fork, ti drop outs, carbon blades, steel steerer.

Frame, Ti BB & dropouts, Al head tube, seat cluster & seat stays and the rest carbon.

Feel free to replace the seat tube with bamboo.

This way all belief systems are accommodated, a multi material/cultural bike.

[toaster]

The carbon fork appears to be here to stay. Nowadays it seems you don't need a frame with a combination of materials. Go all steel, titanium, aluminum or carbon. The earlier bikes that had just the stays or a down or top tube made of carbon are going away as carbon has become a material the industry has seemed to master. Builders don't have to chop metal bikes and add carbon just to have a carbon frame option. They can get all carbon bikes as easily as the next guy.

[VTCaraco]

First of all, I'm fairly confident that stock geo will work. Maybe some day I'll go full-custom, but I think I'm still in the learning phase (despite 20 years of riding).

Specifically, I was looking at a Pinarello Marvel, a Serotta CDA or a ti/carbon frame similar to a Colnago CT1.

All my be inferior to one-material frames (plus I have a full carbon), but I've found particular opportunities that seem to fit my budget. A poor fit or disappointing ride, of course, wouldn't make for a very good buy.

If I could test ride them all then I'd be confident in my decision. Unfortunately, these would all be non-local (out of season) purchases.

[oldpotatoe]

I understand all of the arguments that the design and builder make all the difference, but I'm curious what people see as the pros and cons of the various metals when mated to a carbon rear triangle.
From aluminum with carbon, to steel with carbon, to titanium with carbon ~ how are they different and how are they the same?


I'm looking for a new bike for this year (for enthusiast, not racing purposes) and really wonder what would work the best for me.

To the extent that it matters, I'll add that I'm an athletic 200 to 210 lbs, ride on New England asphalt, and I do need to work within reasonable budget constraints.

http://www.habcycles.com

[avalonracing]

http://www.habcycles.com


Time to shout: WHEN WILL COMPANIES LEARN THAT A CRAPPY LOGO WILL NOT HELP SELL BIKES?!!!! (be it a good bike or a cheap bike)

[dekindy]

Unless you are a youngster looking for a best bang for your buck go fast machine for racing, I would not choose aluminum.

Between carbon, titanium, and steel they are all good material choices. How long you plan to keep the bike, your budget, if you have a need for custom, and whether your are mechanically inclined and would consider an internet based seller are all determining factors. Carbon and steel best meet your cost criteria. I would look at carbon for standard and steel for custom. Titanium is the best for longevity but is generally the most expensive when considering entry levels although there are exceptions to every rule.

Bikesdirect has affordable titanium, steel, and carbon complete bikes if you want to go internet.

Neuvation has affordable aluminum and carbon options that at that price level would come with the unique characteristic of having a great set of wheels that would perform well and last. At your weight you might have to specify a little beefier wheelset than the standard but you could trust them to advise you correctly.

There have been other references to more affordable titanium frames but I cannot recall the builder(s).

[tv_vt]

Well, since we're sitting in Serotta's house, how about a Fierte Ti or IT? I have an IT and love it! I think I would be just a happy with the full ti version, too, but the price was right on the IT.

And it's Vermont-tested :beer:

[dekindy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20NmfEwDmY

This video is a highly respected custom builder that designed and built a multi-material frame using steel, titanium, and carbon. He explains tube by tube why he selected the material and it's characteristics. I found it interesting. The most interesting to me was the use of titanium seat stays.

[zap]

snipped

Unless you are a youngster looking for a best bang for your buck go fast machine for racing, I would not choose aluminum.



Why?

[oldpotatoe]

Time to shout: WHEN WILL COMPANIES LEARN THAT A CRAPPY LOGO WILL NOT HELP SELL BIKES?!!!! (be it a good bike or a cheap bike)

Habs are good cheap bikes and they sell well, your opinion of the logo notwithstanding. Logo appeal, like bicycle 'ride qualities' are subjective.

Including

Serotta Bikes Logo

[JeffS]

Time to shout: WHEN WILL COMPANIES LEARN THAT A CRAPPY LOGO WILL NOT HELP SELL BIKES?!!!! (be it a good bike or a cheap bike)


Hasn't stopped serotta.

[soulspinner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20NmfEwDmY

This video is a highly respected custom builder that designed and built a multi-material frame using steel, titanium, and carbon. He explains tube by tube why he selected the material and it's characteristics. I found it interesting. The most interesting to me was the use of titanium seat stays.

That said, last bike I knew he designed for himself was all ti....

[dekindy]

snipped
Unless you are a youngster looking for a best bang for your buck go fast machine for racing, I would not choose aluminum.


Dekindy, Why?

From the majority of opinions I have read, a cheap aluminum frame is the most cost effective material for a young racer on a budget. Aluminum is the most lightweight bike for the dollar in low price ranges and would not be as expensive a loss if crashed. Otherwise, I recommend all the other materials as better choices. Even cyclists that afford it use aluminum for this reason to save money in case of crash. This may old news since so many inexpensive carbon frames are now available in the marketplace.

I think I have seen a couple of high end aluminum builders. I cannot recall their names. It just is not the material of preference anymore and appears to becoming less so everyday.

Your thoughts?

[avalonracing]

Surely you can't say that the Serotta logo is anything like this:

[VTCaraco]

I'm not a young racer and am not even looking for an ultra-fast bike. I don't want to work hard and feel like the bike was the limiting factor, but I'm recreational and value comfort, too.

I had sworn off aluminum, to make a general statement, but saw a deal for a Pinarello Marvel that made me start to wonder. It popped up on this forum as a recommended aluminum frame in some of the "what bike should I buy" threads a few years ago on this forum. So I thought maybe I was being unfair. At the same time I saw a combo ti-carbon that I thought might be more comfortable but from a lesser named builder than Pinarello (or our esteemed host). And I had inquired about a CDA a while back.

Maybe I should have asked a more general question ~ given a $1500ish price point (which feels fair given my ability, interests, and income bracket/responsibilities), 210 lbs almost 40 year old recreational interest, average to poor roads... what should I buy?
I've noticed the ads for titanium Serottas on the classifieds as well as local craigslists; but none seem to be just right. They either seem a little too pricey (I want the 04 complete ti bike that PoppaWheelie refers to in this (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=67791&highlight=Sharon) thread) or a not-sure geometry.

After talking with the guy selling the ti-carbon bike last night, I almost thought that I should pull the trigger, but the soft market for second-hand bikes coupled with the months until MY season really starts has me searching again.


I'd really love to be adopted by one of the forum-members with excess inventory :banana: I promise I'd give it a loving home...

[zap]

From the majority of opinions I have read, a cheap aluminum frame is the most cost effective material for a young racer on a budget. Aluminum is the most lightweight bike for the dollar in low price ranges and would not be as expensive a loss if crashed. Otherwise, I recommend all the other materials as better choices. Even cyclists that afford it use aluminum for this reason to save money in case of crash. This may old news since so many inexpensive carbon frames are now available in the marketplace.

I think I have seen a couple of high end aluminum builders. I cannot recall their names. It just is not the material of preference anymore and appears to becoming less so everyday.

Your thoughts?

Much has changed in the bicycle market but there have been some excellent al frames on the market. Cannondale comes to mind and Klein, I have a q-pro carbon.

I see no reason why al can't continue as a material for quality frames. I think there is a market for a Klein resurrection and am interested in Jerks (Gaulzeti sp?) kit.

[RADaines]

http://scottusa.com/us_en/product/8295/45151/speedster_s20

I have read good things about the Scott Speedster. The S20 version is in your price range.

[avalonracing]

there is a market for a Klein resurrection

No kidding. Kleins were a great, high-end aluminum frame, had racer credibility, bitchin' paint and were light and strong. I still have one that I raced the crap out of that is still going strong.

If they did re-introduce Klein they should not make it another "re-badged aluminum Trek" just to hang more Bontrager parts from.

It should be a lightweight, proprietary, aluminum racing machine complete with the steep head and seat tube that Klein was known for (both were 74º on my 57cm bike). AND IT SHOULD BE MADE IN THE USA (now that C-Dale is outsourcing). I'd buy another.

[Lifelover]

Just because Aluminum has gone out of favor, by no means indicates that is in an inferior material in any way shape of form.

It can be made to be strong, light, fast, durable and even compliant.

I would not be surprised to see a resurgence like we have seen with steel.

Viva la aluminum

[zap]

It should be a lightweight, proprietary, aluminum racing machine complete with the steep head and seat tube that Klein was known for (both were 74º on my 57cm bike). AND IT SHOULD BE MADE IN THE USA (now that C-Dale is outsourcing). I'd buy another.

Agree with all but geo. I don't remember all the details but Trek made some good geo changes once the euro pro's started riding Kleins. Once the final change was done for the '03 model year (Time carbon rear) was when I pounced.

Last I heard, Gary Klein is building telescopes. Time for him to jump back into the game.

If not him then ....... :D

[avalonracing]

The made the geometry more standard Trek. They slackened the seat and head tubes and lowered the BB. Kleins originally had a crit geometry as you ride the rivet (hence the steep seat tube) needed quick handling (steep head tube) and plenty of ground clearance (to power through the corners).

Pedal clearance got better since the early Kleins with the high BB was designed so I can understand lowering the BB to get a lower center of gravity but man it is fun to be able to get and extra pedal before going into or coming out of a corner when the other guys would chunk their pedal. :D

[dekindy]

That said, last bike I knew he designed for himself was all ti....

I was curious and have exchanged e-mails a couple of times with Carl Strong, he always replies promptly when he is in the shop, so I asked him about this. He replied that he does not have a favorite material and he likes them all, they all have their pluses and minuses. He currently has only one bike, a steel roadie.

[djg]

I understand all of the arguments that the design and builder make all the difference, but I'm curious what people see as the pros and cons of the various metals when mated to a carbon rear triangle.
From aluminum with carbon, to steel with carbon, to titanium with carbon ~ how are they different and how are they the same?


I'm looking for a new bike for this year (for enthusiast, not racing purposes) and really wonder what would work the best for me.

To the extent that it matters, I'll add that I'm an athletic 200 to 210 lbs, ride on New England asphalt, and I do need to work within reasonable budget constraints.

I've owned two metal/CF combo bikes -- a Colnago CT1 (6/4 Ti main triangle, CF seat and chain stays, CF fork) and a Serotta HSG Ti (3/2.4 Ti main T plus chain stays, CF seat stays and fork). I sold the Colnago after about 5 years of very good use and maybe should have kept it. I'm still riding the Serotta. The two bikes have both been excellent -- both stable, and both good in corners, but they really do feel different (or did when I could compare them). I have no particular conviction about any advantage or disadvantage posed by the CF stays in either bike -- I trust that the designers used their materials well and I know I was pleased with the results. At the same time, I'm pretty sure that a plug-in carbon wishbone stay cannot repair a bad frame design or build.

My cross bike is all Ti, and that's great too.

Find the right bike from the right builder/mfg and I think you'll be happy whether you get CF stays or not.

[drewski]

A lot of these questions are dictated by the type of riding you will
do. The ultimate use will dictate the optimal geometry, wheel flop,
gearing ratio, etc, etc. etc. You will need.



Aluminum--light but usually stiff.


carbon ----not resilient enough too stiff


High grade Steel is the deal ---
Not all steel frames are used with same grade of tubing.
The quality of the tubing and the experience of the builder
is what determines price. For example a Richard Sachs, Sasha White,
Belinky, JP Weigle, steel bicycle are made by some of the best builders around. These are analogous to a Stradivarius



Other than rust
has a lovely feel. Other web sites you can go to get more info
on frame materials:

1. rivbike.com
2. sheldon brown or harris cyclery...





Titanium is the bomb but will also be all the way to the right of the distribution sine curve in terms of its overall price. Serotta makes some of the best around.

[soulspinner]

I was curious and have exchanged e-mails a couple of times with Carl Strong, he always replies promptly when he is in the shop, so I asked him about this. He replied that he does not have a favorite material and he likes them all, they all have their pluses and minuses. He currently has only one bike, a steel roadie.

Prolly cause he knows how to translate one materials ride for another with the same customer.

[JeffS]

Other web sites you can go to get more info
on frame materials:

1. rivbike.com

:rolleyes:

And you can get more info on birth control from the catholic church.

[zap]

These are analogous to a Stradivarius




hmmmmm. carbon composite is the new top quality piece.

[1centaur]

carbon ----not resilient enough too stiff

Wow, fragile and brittle. Sounds like the ideal material for a fork.

[VTCaraco]

What do folks think of the Spectrum on the classifieds (from Sunday).

Seems like it would fit. Vintage is 1" threaded steerer with pressed in bb...
I like the Campy and seller seems like a good guy.

[dd74]

Here's what I would do:

Buy a good quality steel frame w/ a steel fork, and build it up with good components like D/A, Red, CR, etc. Buy Ti bits for it: stem, seat post, a seat with Ti rails. Then buy carbon handlebars, and a set of carbon wheels.

You'll have a hodgepodge of material, sure. But one material won't rely on another in the critical areas where failure could occur, and the bike will certainly be light and fast.

Plus, with all steel, the ride will be nicer. I've had a steel frame with composite stays and fork -- I hated the ride. The bike, in fact, seemed a little confused as to how it was supposed to act when on rough roads, i.e. absorb the bumps or hop and skip over them.

[avalonracing]

hmmmmm. carbon composite is the new top quality piece.

Sorry, can't trust a guy without socks.