William
03-01-2005, 11:45 AM
I'm going to lay out a situation that is happening to someone I know very well and I would like your opinions as customers, shop owners, and builders. My "friend" Joe is currently stuck in the middle of a situation between his LBS and a well known builder. Each is basically pointing the finger at the other. Do you see this as the LBS's problem, the builders problem, or shared between them?
"Joe" noticed a bulge in the seat tube of his custom frame and contacted the builder to relay his concerns about it. The bulge lined up with the bottom of the seat post and he wondered if this could be the cause, or if it had been there from the beginning and he just hadn't noticed it right away. "Joe" had a lot of post showing and wondered if it was possible for the leverage caused by his weight might have possibly caused it? "Joe" talked to his contact (through e-mail) at the builders and exchanged much correspondence on the matter. "Joe" was instructed to send the frame, fork, seat post, and saddle to the builder for evaluation/inspection to find out the possible cause and whether it was ok to continue riding. During those conversations, "Joe" decided to have the frame painted while they had it as long as it passed inspection (hence the instruction to include the fork). "Joe" was also instructed to have his LBS send in the frame and parts instead of sending it himself.
"Joe" spent some time to find another frame to build up so he have something to ride before he sent in said frame & parts. He ended up buying a slightly used frame and fork from his LBS and then brought in the bike in question and had them switch all the parts over except the saddle and seat post (which he purchased new ones to put on the temp bike). The LBS was instructed by "Joe" which parts were to go on two separate instances. There was a conversation between the builder contact and the LBS about the shipment. "Joe" was not present during that conversation. The LBS did sit on it for a week or so before sending it out. The frame and (supposedly) the fork, seat post, and saddle were sent around the first or second week of October. On Oct 14, the builder contact told "Joe", "I called **************(LBS)... we are all set to go. I will do a cursory evaluation when the bike comes in and we will go from there." Sometime around the beginning of November "Joe" was contacted and told that the frame was fine, it was basically a cosmetic aspect of the tube, nothing structural. Since "Joe" hadn't decided what color scheme he wanted yet he waited while trying to decide before giving the go ahead. Around Thanksgiving, "Joe" had some personal issues pop up and then a death in the family so he decided he couldn't spend the extra funds for the paint work. He contacted the builder and instructed them to send it back to the LBS. This was right around Thanksgiving.
After Christmas (first week of Jan actually), "Joe" realized he had not heard from his LBS so he gave them a call. They had not received the frame and parts back from the builder yet. On Jan, 10th, "Joe" sent an e-mail to his contact asking where it was? The contact responded, "Oops. Sorry, "Joe". She is still here. I will send it tomorrow." When the box arrived at the LBS, "Joe" was called. The next week "Joe" went down to pick up his frame, fork, seat post, and saddle. When the box was opened right in front of "Joe", the only thing in the box was the frame, nothing else. It was a Saturday so he couldn't contact the builder that day.
Later that afternoon, "Joe" sent an e-mail to his contact explaining that he got the frame and it was fine, but where were the forks, seat post and saddle? The following Monday he got a reply stating that they never received the forks, seat post or saddle. Only the frame.
So, "Joe" has his LBS saying they sent the frame & parts, the builder saying they only received the frame.
A subsequent response from "Joes" builder stated that they have a good tracking system and the point man who opened the box says they weren't there. "Joe" doesn't doubt that they have a system and try to be careful with all frames that come in. In his eyes it's a 50-50 shot. The LBS could have neglected to put them in the box. But the fact that he was instructed to include them from the builder for evaluation purposes and painting, and then the builder never asked where they were if they didn't receive them doesn't add up either. If they didn't need the post & saddle to evaluate (and subsequently pass) the frame, why did they ask for them? If they did need them, which they said they did & asked for, how would *********(master builder) be able to evaluate the problem properly without them? Do you see "Joes" problem here? What they asked for, and what they did don't match up.
Also, when "Joe" was contacted and told that the frame was ok, he was still undecided about the paint. They were waiting for a paint choice and never once mentioned that no fork came in with the frame even though they requested it be sent. At that time they didn't say anything like, "Hey Joe, I didn't get your fork that I asked for, didn't you want that painted too?"
And even with the builders system for keeping track of frames, "Joes" frame lingered in the factory for more than a month after he asked them to send it back. In spite of this, the builder seems to be firm that they weren't lost by them and that they didn't likely receive them.
The LBS is saying they sent them out and can show that the box going out was 3-4 pounds heavier then what came back in from the builder. "Joe" has seen how the LBS packs their boxes, and the box from the builder was opened right in front of him. He's says they were packed almost identically. Not a difference that can explain a 3-4 pound difference.
"Joe" is not saying that the LBS couldn't have messed up. But as the guy in the middle, he's just trying to evaluate all the information he has at his disposal, what makes sense to him, and what doesn't. Right now he's just sitting there with a frame he can't put back together and ride. That certainly wasn't the position he was in when all this started.
William
"Joe" noticed a bulge in the seat tube of his custom frame and contacted the builder to relay his concerns about it. The bulge lined up with the bottom of the seat post and he wondered if this could be the cause, or if it had been there from the beginning and he just hadn't noticed it right away. "Joe" had a lot of post showing and wondered if it was possible for the leverage caused by his weight might have possibly caused it? "Joe" talked to his contact (through e-mail) at the builders and exchanged much correspondence on the matter. "Joe" was instructed to send the frame, fork, seat post, and saddle to the builder for evaluation/inspection to find out the possible cause and whether it was ok to continue riding. During those conversations, "Joe" decided to have the frame painted while they had it as long as it passed inspection (hence the instruction to include the fork). "Joe" was also instructed to have his LBS send in the frame and parts instead of sending it himself.
"Joe" spent some time to find another frame to build up so he have something to ride before he sent in said frame & parts. He ended up buying a slightly used frame and fork from his LBS and then brought in the bike in question and had them switch all the parts over except the saddle and seat post (which he purchased new ones to put on the temp bike). The LBS was instructed by "Joe" which parts were to go on two separate instances. There was a conversation between the builder contact and the LBS about the shipment. "Joe" was not present during that conversation. The LBS did sit on it for a week or so before sending it out. The frame and (supposedly) the fork, seat post, and saddle were sent around the first or second week of October. On Oct 14, the builder contact told "Joe", "I called **************(LBS)... we are all set to go. I will do a cursory evaluation when the bike comes in and we will go from there." Sometime around the beginning of November "Joe" was contacted and told that the frame was fine, it was basically a cosmetic aspect of the tube, nothing structural. Since "Joe" hadn't decided what color scheme he wanted yet he waited while trying to decide before giving the go ahead. Around Thanksgiving, "Joe" had some personal issues pop up and then a death in the family so he decided he couldn't spend the extra funds for the paint work. He contacted the builder and instructed them to send it back to the LBS. This was right around Thanksgiving.
After Christmas (first week of Jan actually), "Joe" realized he had not heard from his LBS so he gave them a call. They had not received the frame and parts back from the builder yet. On Jan, 10th, "Joe" sent an e-mail to his contact asking where it was? The contact responded, "Oops. Sorry, "Joe". She is still here. I will send it tomorrow." When the box arrived at the LBS, "Joe" was called. The next week "Joe" went down to pick up his frame, fork, seat post, and saddle. When the box was opened right in front of "Joe", the only thing in the box was the frame, nothing else. It was a Saturday so he couldn't contact the builder that day.
Later that afternoon, "Joe" sent an e-mail to his contact explaining that he got the frame and it was fine, but where were the forks, seat post and saddle? The following Monday he got a reply stating that they never received the forks, seat post or saddle. Only the frame.
So, "Joe" has his LBS saying they sent the frame & parts, the builder saying they only received the frame.
A subsequent response from "Joes" builder stated that they have a good tracking system and the point man who opened the box says they weren't there. "Joe" doesn't doubt that they have a system and try to be careful with all frames that come in. In his eyes it's a 50-50 shot. The LBS could have neglected to put them in the box. But the fact that he was instructed to include them from the builder for evaluation purposes and painting, and then the builder never asked where they were if they didn't receive them doesn't add up either. If they didn't need the post & saddle to evaluate (and subsequently pass) the frame, why did they ask for them? If they did need them, which they said they did & asked for, how would *********(master builder) be able to evaluate the problem properly without them? Do you see "Joes" problem here? What they asked for, and what they did don't match up.
Also, when "Joe" was contacted and told that the frame was ok, he was still undecided about the paint. They were waiting for a paint choice and never once mentioned that no fork came in with the frame even though they requested it be sent. At that time they didn't say anything like, "Hey Joe, I didn't get your fork that I asked for, didn't you want that painted too?"
And even with the builders system for keeping track of frames, "Joes" frame lingered in the factory for more than a month after he asked them to send it back. In spite of this, the builder seems to be firm that they weren't lost by them and that they didn't likely receive them.
The LBS is saying they sent them out and can show that the box going out was 3-4 pounds heavier then what came back in from the builder. "Joe" has seen how the LBS packs their boxes, and the box from the builder was opened right in front of him. He's says they were packed almost identically. Not a difference that can explain a 3-4 pound difference.
"Joe" is not saying that the LBS couldn't have messed up. But as the guy in the middle, he's just trying to evaluate all the information he has at his disposal, what makes sense to him, and what doesn't. Right now he's just sitting there with a frame he can't put back together and ride. That certainly wasn't the position he was in when all this started.
William