OT: Barefoot /Primal running Vibram Five Fingers Shoes

[beungood]

I recently was reading about barefoot/Primal running and came across a book "Born to Run" about runing properly and how barefoot running and runny with bareffot/flat type running shoes makes your legs alot stronger.

Has anyone out here read the book or tried out the Vibram Five Fingers SHoes (KSO Multi sport,KSO TREK, Flow or Sprint) or any of the other brands? Did it help? Any cautions?

[bluesea]

I grew up bare footed, able to run across lava rocks with no problem. Saw the vibrams and thought about using them for racing on I-14s, but they look weird and don't protect your little toe enough from thin-edged boat fittings. I tend to think that properly fitted high tech footwear, unlike bare feet, can have the important benefit of softening the shock to the skeletal structure over the long run.

[Climb01742]

i have a pair of five fingers. i like them a lot. i've been running in them fairly regularly but only about a mile at a time. a bit of history might be helpful: i started running seriously when i was 13. at one time i was running 100 mile weeks. as injuries piled up, become a triathlete. as legs+joints got worse, become a full time cyclist with the once or twice a week run. then about 3 years ago, one last, major, bad running injury made me say "no mas". but i always missed the simplicity of running. so far, the five fingers are giving me some hope of running again. i can't vouch for them beyond simply saying, so far, it's a fascinating experiment. but if you try them, be sure to run with your feet right under your hips, back erect and try to relax your shoulders and arms as much as possible. if you have an indoor track, that is an ideal place to try them. and go to youtube and put in "barefoot running". quite a few vids out there. good luck!

[beungood]

I have been running off asnd on for the last week and usually never have too much trouble other than a bout with Shin Splints in the 90's that gave me a fracture. I have been doing pretty good but feel a slight twinge in my shins took the 3rd week off and continued. Then I came across a sale on these Five fingers and started reading how they help you get stronger. I think they are worth a try. Might get a pair of the Flow's with thermal lining and give them a try. Usually run before work sometimes I do distance about 3-5 miles sometimes just time 45 minutes of running then into patrol.

[thinpin]

I gave up running as a teenager - too bloody hard on the joints!
I do use the 5 fingers though for general knocking around. I walk differently and feel more aware of my posture and gait in them. Be careful with the fitting as my small toe just makes it into its "finger". Some folk cant fit into them.

[Climb01742]

yep, getting all your toes into their "slots" takes a bit of finaggling, with the little toe requiring the most care. and yep, they care great for just walking around--they really do make you aware of your feet, posture and alignment.

[jroden]

I ran for a while a few months back in light racing flats but found after a while my feet were bugging me, so I switched back to the standard shoes. I'll try tr phase in the light ones once the slush is off the roads

[harlond]

I grew up bare footed, able to run across lava rocks with no problem. Saw the vibrams and thought about using them for racing on I-14s, but they look weird and don't protect your little toe enough from thin-edged boat fittings. I tend to think that properly fitted high tech footwear, unlike bare feet, can have the important benefit of softening the shock to the skeletal structure over the long run.The book makes the opposite case and is well worth reading. Maybe if I'd read the book 10-12 years ago, before I started running in well-fitting running shoes and ended up needing hip replacement, I'd still be running. Hard to say.

[Len J]

Most people don't know how to run correctly......that is sinking into their hips and running quietly, with little if any pounding, more of a rolling thru the stride. High tech shoes encourage improper running technique by protecting the foot from the immediate pounding.

Len

[bluesea]

Interesting. I definitely have an open mind, as I am just beginning a modest running program.

[itsalldark]

Might work for a runner who has perfect biomechanics, and only for very short runs or on a very, very soft surface. Most runner's are not efficient enough to wear them. IMHO this is a fad that will have severe results. Runners will feel up to three time there body weight with every stride----where is the cushioning :confused: ? Nike had it right with the Free program--a shoe that emulates running on the grass with bare feet. Wear them for a couple of hours a day to strengthen muscles in your feet that are not active and they balance your feet. There are lots of companies that have jumped on this bandwagon, Ecco, Newton, karhu, Five Finger just to name a few. Let's see how many are still here with this catagory in 24 months! I think the most interesting running shoe I have seen lately is the Nike Lunar Glide--very light and cushioned with just a slight post or the new Brooks Glycerin with the new DNA technology This is just the opinion of someone who has fitted running shoes for over 20 years! We sell and fit all of the above brands and many others.

[Climb01742]

this is a fascinating topic (for me, anyway). one of the basic questions is: does the foot need "help" to run/walk/move correctly, or does all the "help" make things worse? heaven knows, there are many theories but not much research to truly answer the question.

because of injuries and physical therapy, i've been focusing on walking "correctly" and it's really brought home for me how much i/we have fallen into bad habits and compensation patterns even for something as seemingly simple as walking and running. and it's certainly true that to change how we run or walk, simply changing our shoes isn't enough. an analogy that makes a lot of sense to me is: if you have a knee injury, which "answer" is "better": wearing a knee brace for life or strengthening all the supporting muscles? and the sad next question: how many people would rather have the brace than go through the rehab? have most running shoes become comfy crutches?

for me, anyway, i'm finding that "less is more"...as long as i'm willing to do the rehab+work necessary to undo some very old compensation patterns.

[Len J]

Might work for a runner who has perfect biomechanics, and only for very short runs or on a very, very soft surface. Most runner's are not efficient enough to wear them. IMHO this is a fad that will have severe results. Runners will feel up to three time there body weight with every stride----where is the cushioning :confused: ? Nike had it right with the Free program--a shoe that emulates running on the grass with bare feet. Wear them for a couple of hours a day to strengthen muscles in your feet that are not active and they balance your feet. There are lots of companies that have jumped on this bandwagon, Ecco, Newton, karhu, Five Finger just to name a few. Let's see how many are still here with this catagory in 24 months! I think the most interesting running shoe I have seen lately is the Nike Lunar Glide--very light and cushioned with just a slight post or the new Brooks Glycerin with the new DNA technology This is just the opinion of someone who has fitted running shoes for over 20 years! We sell and fit all of the above brands and many others.


Invest in cushioned shoes, and all you need do, is continue to invest in cushioned shoes.

Invest in proper biomechanics, and you can run pain free for ever.

Len

[Jim Braley]

Intreresting comments and a good subject. As a physical therapist and one who has fit running shoes for many years I would agree that someone with perfect biomechanics (and that is a very minor number) can do quite well with no shoes or "minimal" shoes. The average runner or walker which most of us are will have substantial issues with no shoes I would suspect. Most podiatrists that I have talked with say that one of the major casues of plantar fascitis is walking barefooted or in flip flops so I would also suspect that this would be an issue although I am sure you will find podiatrists and orthopedists who will disagree with this. I have run regulalry for 35 years, am a very neutral high arched individual and have had minimal problems/injuries over the years. We will see as time goes on if this is a fad or not but again I would suspect that the majority of runners and walkers out there will continue to use good running shoes. I would also question how one would run without shoes in temps below 35 degrees or so or in rainy or snowy weather

[Acotts]

Great book. One of the best books I have read in a long time.

I like the vibrams. I feel like I learned a lot about how I run from running in them.

Frankly, I took 3 steps, felt the impact shoot up my heel into my brain and and I was running on a far more flatter foot. I also begin doing more sprint work in the grass.

i still only bust them out now and again.

the book is better than the shoe.

[sfhbike]

Might work for a runner who has perfect biomechanics, and only for very short runs or on a very, very soft surface. Most runner's are not efficient enough to wear them. IMHO this is a fad that will have severe results. Runners will feel up to three time there body weight with every stride----where is the cushioning :confused: ?.

I disagree. I have bad lower leg biomechanics. After running with stability shoes and custom orthotics for my very flat feet for years, and always having to quit b/c of some injury, I decided after reading _Born to Run_ that it was at least worth a shot to carefully transition to a more minimalist approach and see what the results would be. I had nothing to lose. I've been very, very surprised by the results. That said, form is hugely important, so look into Chi Running and POSE method -- there is no need for "cushioning" if you know how to land properly. It is not hard, but takes some relearning.

I started transitioning by simply taking my orthotics out, and changing my running form to a Chi / POSE style. Over a period of months -- slowly -- incorporating some barefoot runs, and spending lots more time barefoot around the house, etc. I now alternate between minimalist New Balance 790s (which have no support whatsoever), my Vibrams, and barefoot (weather permitting). Basically since October, when starting this experiment, I have built up enough foot strength to be able to run occasional 4-6 mile runs in the Vibrams with very little calf soreness afterwards. My notoriously narrow flat feet have gotten noticeably wider (I no longer fit in my Sidis) as muscles developed. I feel better running and am no longer plagued by constant joint, muscle and tendon issues (shin splints, knee issues, etc.).

There is certainly an adjustment period with various strange aches and pains, which resolve themselves as your body adjusts, and this has to be approached very carefully, deliberately and slowly (or else you will injure yourself). You will know when you've pushed too far because you will feel it. But so far, I have to say that it has been an interesting and worthwhile experience, and that I am convinced by the thinking/science behind it (read the book). It makes sense that our only very recently shod feet have developed for thousands of years to thrive with use, contact, and a little abuse, and to atrophy when they are bound and protected in modern shoes where they receive no feedback or stress.

However, I don't think the same principles really apply with activities like cycling, which depend on external mechanics (a bike) and more "unnatural" movements for the body. I still keep my orthotics / shims in my cycling shoes (yes I tried removing them on a few rides, not good). We may have been evolved / "born" to run, but it might take a few thousand more years of cycling for evolution to catch up. :rolleyes:

[rockdude]

I paced a friend in the Leadville 100 trail run last year. In the aid station at about the 80 mile mark, a guy came in with with a pair of them crazy shoes on. I have never seen feet in such bad shape. No way, no how for me.

[bw77]

I like to walk about 3 hrs a day in the off-bike season. About a year ago I developed a pain under my big toe, diagnosed as sesamoiditis, treated with a custom orthotic. It has helped, but lately became more painful. So I tried walking around the house barefoot, and found I have no foot pain doing so. I put on wool socks and walked outside, no pain. Not sure where this will lead for me, but it does feel better to walk without shoes, no matter what shoes and insoles I use.

[rugbysecondrow]

I have seen people using the vibram soles/pads at the gym. They seem like a good idea and I might give them a try for comfort, but it looks like the mesh breaks down on them pretty easily. I spoke with the guy wearing them and he was happy with them, but normall only runs approx 3-4 miles and uses them for workouts. Anyway, he said the soles were good, just he mesh body was not very well crafted...for what its worth.

Paul

[rugbysecondrow]

Question:

I have read about these some and understand there might be limitations in running (slow acclimation etc) but what about weight training, lifting, working out? It seems the natural feel would be more supportive than running or cross training shoes. Any experience there?

Thanks,

Paul

[OperaLover]

Like bluesea, I grew up in Hawai'i and ran around barefoot all the time. I too, could walk/run on pretty much any surface as my soles were like leather. Up until 7th grade I only wore shoes to church. From 7th grade on I started to wear "slippahs" (y'all call them flip flops) as well, and shoes more often, particularly for running. I suppose if I had not switched to running shoes (in the late 70's; everyone wanted the waffle soled Nike) I could have built on that base.

I remember an older Hawaiian man who ran around Manoa Valley barefooted and even had done the Honolulu Marathon without shoes.

Fast forward to 2010, I am about to start running again after a 9-year hiatus (corresponding to the birth of my oldest son). There is no way my tender skinned, no padded soles, and old joints are going to take any roadwork, particularly on asphalt.

Still, I too am fascinated by this concept.

[sfhbike]

An NPR story about the science behind the barefoot running thesis behind _Born to Run_: Link (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123031997)

[Climb01742]

Question:

I have read about these some and understand there might be limitations in running (slow acclimation etc) but what about weight training, lifting, working out? It seems the natural feel would be more supportive than running or cross training shoes. Any experience there?

Thanks,

Paul

paul, i run in the fivefingers and train at the gym wearing nike frees. i've tried some lifts/exercises at the gym wearing the fivefingers. some work well (like single leg squats and any standing upper body lifts.) but dynamic lower body work (box jumps and step ups) work better with the minimal cushioning of the frees. but both fivefingers and frees are a huge improvement over regular running or xtraining shoes. engaging your feet more not only strengthens your feet, but the entire kinetic chain. you quickly realize that most shoes "deaden" your feet into static levers. i might begin with frees then work toward fivefingers. at the very least, fivefingers are great to wear around the house, as just walking in them gives muscles in your feet and lower legs a workout they haven't had in years.

[rugbysecondrow]

paul, i run in the fivefingers and train at the gym wearing nike frees. i've tried some lifts/exercises at the gym wearing the fivefingers. some work well (like single leg squats and any standing upper body lifts.) but dynamic lower body work (box jumps and step ups) work better with the minimal cushioning of the frees. but both fivefingers and frees are a huge improvement over regular running or xtraining shoes. engaging your feet more not only strengthens your feet, but the entire kinetic chain. you quickly realize that most shoes "deaden" your feet into static levers. i might begin with frees then work toward fivefingers. at the very least, fivefingers are great to wear around the house, as just walking in them gives muscles in your feet and lower legs a workout they haven't had in years.

Thanks, that is what I was curious about. I do the pistol squats and I normally do them more easily barefoot at home, but at the gym it is hard to incoroporate them because I can't get the response or feel I need to maintain proper position and balance. I want something that allows me to have a stronger connection to the floors with the workout I am doing (dextarity with my feet), whether kettlebells, deadlift, jump rope etc. I will check out the Frees. Good feedback!

[MattTuck]

I see the point of barefoot running if you're doing most of your running in the fields, sand or forest. It is spurious to think that replacing one part of modern life (shoes) with a part of prehistoric life (barefoot) will bring us into more balance or health unless you replace the surface (concrete / pavement) with natural surfaces.

[ss-jimbo]

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/the-roving-runner-goes-barefoot/?scp=1&sq=barefoot%20running&st=cse

[jscottyk]

...what about weight training, lifting, working out? It seems the natural feel would be more supportive than running or cross training shoes. Any experience there?

paul, i run in the fivefingers and train at the gym wearing nike frees. i've tried some lifts/exercises at the gym wearing the fivefingers. some work well (like single leg squats and any standing upper body lifts.) but dynamic lower body work (box jumps and step ups) work better with the minimal cushioning of the frees. but both fivefingers and frees are a huge improvement over regular running or xtraining shoes. engaging your feet more not only strengthens your feet, but the entire kinetic chain. you quickly realize that most shoes "deaden" your feet into static levers. i might begin with frees then work toward fivefingers. at the very least, fivefingers are great to wear around the house, as just walking in them gives muscles in your feet and lower legs a workout they haven't had in years.
Thanks, that is what I was curious about. I do the pistol squats and I normally do them more easily barefoot at home, but at the gym it is hard to incoroporate them because I can't get the response or feel I need to maintain proper position and balance. I want something that allows me to have a stronger connection to the floors with the workout I am doing (dextarity with my feet), whether kettlebells, deadlift, jump rope etc. I will check out the Frees. Good feedback!

I've been wearing the fivefingers for about three months now. Primarily in the gym for kettlebell, box jump, deadlift and bongo board workouts. Also dog walking and some short runs. I really dig'em for all the above. The increase in proprioception alone is worth it. Not having extra material compressing is also a huge plus.

I do not use them (yet) for olympic lifts or Oly skill transfer exercises including squats and front squats. I've been wearing Oly shoes for this training for a couple of years and the heal lift is a big part of the form. Still, I think there is benefit to overall fitness to work my way into these lifts with the fivefingers.

My biggest issue with Nike Frees is the thickness and sponginess of the heal.