Your opinion...shoddy LBS work?

[bcm119]

So I've been living in a new town for about 10 months. I have 4 bike shops in town, and I wasn't impressed by any of them at first. Recently I decided I liked one of them (I really wanted to like one), so I had them do a few things on my old Klein that I'm building up to do some races on.

First, they pressed in a headset (which I purchased from them), and I later noticed a paint chip at the bottom of the head tube that I'm pretty sure wasn't there before. No big deal, but I was a little disappointed. Yesterday, I had them cut a seatpost (which I purchased from them) down to a reasonable length, because I don't own a vise or hacksaw. They happily did it for no charge. However, I noticed that they didn't wrap any cloth around the post before clamping it. I figured they had some rubber clamp covers on the vice, but I couldn't tell from behind the counter. When I get the post back, there are some scratches and small gouges dug into it. Nothing major, but scratches nonetheless. Being the nice guy that I am, and because I really had my heart set on liking this shop, I didn't say anything. But its kind of eating at me.

I don't often go to shops to have work done, so I'm not a good judge of what to expect. But it seems pretty silly not to wrap an aluminum tube in some cloth before throwing in the vice. Is this shoddy work, or par for the course? :confused:

[Sandy]

Shoddy work, with a capital S.

Shoddy Seatpost Sandy

[madbiker]

So I've been living in a new town for about 10 months. I have 4 bike shops in town, and I wasn't impressed by any of them at first. Recently I decided I liked one of them (I really wanted to like one), so I had them do a few things on my old Klein that I'm building up to do some races on.

First, they pressed in a headset (which I purchased from them), and I later noticed a paint chip at the bottom of the head tube that I'm pretty sure wasn't there before. No big deal, but I was a little disappointed. Yesterday, I had them cut a seatpost (which I purchased from them) down to a reasonable length, because I don't own a vise or hacksaw. They happily did it for no charge. However, I noticed that they didn't wrap any cloth around the post before clamping it. I figured they had some rubber clamp covers on the vice, but I couldn't tell from behind the counter. When I get the post back, there are some scratches and small gouges dug into it. Nothing major, but scratches nonetheless. Being the nice guy that I am, and because I really had my heart set on liking this shop, I didn't say anything. But its kind of eating at me.

I don't often go to shops to have work done, so I'm not a good judge of what to expect. But it seems pretty silly not to wrap an aluminum tube in some cloth before throwing in the vice. Is this shoddy work, or par for the course? :confused:

shoddy work. Try one of the other 3 shops in the future, or learn to do the work yourself.

[William]

Probably happens more then you would think (common sense seems to be lacking these days). It's tough, I've probably been to all the ones you're dealing with and found only two of them I would deal with. One the majority of the time. Of that one, they had a good wrench when I lived there. I would be surprised if he's still there though. It's hard, they were good to me, but there were a few issues I had with them as well. Makes it difficult to recomend them. Tough in a small college town like that.

William

[chrisroph]

All they had to do was clamp the bottom of the post--ie the part being cut off--in the vise. Shoddy, sloppy and inexcusable.

[BURCH]

That sucks....I would write them a letter (which I have done to a local shop and got a great response from the owner). I wouldn't attack them or demand a refund or anything. But just express your dissappointment in the care they have shown in the past.

I am sure the less than average cyclist would not have even noticed these things, but being a more seriouse cyclist you not only noticed, but it is eating you up inside.

The shop needs to realize that the guys that drop the big bucks on cycling are their best customers and are surely going to notice when they don't pay attention to minor details like what you mentioned above.

BURCH

[chrisroph]

If you want to raise the issue with the shop, I'd just ride the bike over and show the owner what happened. But sometime stuff just happens. I built myself a rear wheel some time ago and taco'd it doing cross practice when I caught my toe on a barrier. Rather than rebuilding it myself, I took it in to my favorite lbs with a campy rim I had sitting around. They gave me the wheel back and the tension felt too loose. The wheel very quickly fell apart. Rather than making it an issue, I rebuilt it myself and no longer use that shop for wheel service. I've gone back to building my own wheels again. But I still use the shop. I've never mentioned the problem to the shop owner. He has done me so many favors, I would rather not bring it up.

[Marron]

I was building up my NOS Saronni and wanted to use a new Torelli/Stronlight headset I had in my shop. The cups went in just fine but the crown race turned out to be a 27.0 JPS and too loose for the fork crown. It took me a week of searching to finally find the appropriate ISO race. I asked the shop at the LBS by my work to install it and the young guy in the shop came back with a completely mangled aluminum crown race and insisted that it took a JPS race. I asked him to measure it and like every other chromed Italian bike from the 80's the crown needed to milled down to 26.4. They didn't have the tool for the job so I thanked them for their efforts and left.

My next attempt was at the mothership for this LBS in Seattle. I was now working with a more generic Ultergra headset but that really didn't matter. The adults working there were appreciative of the unique bike, immediately aware of the need for preparation and had the fork milled and the headset installed in under 10 minutes and $10. Don't ask a boy to do a man's job.

[Ti Designs]

Go to any thread about an LBS or the work done, notice the difference between positive comments and negative ones. Examples:

Case #1, a positive review: I went to [insert name of LBS here] where I had [insert name of person here] install my headset.

Case #2, a negative review: I went to my LBS where they installed a headset, and...

See the difference? Build a relationship with a few people at the shop. You can't build a relationship with the shop - it's a building. I deal with this issue all the time, working at a bike shop. Yeh, it's the responsibility of the shop to insure the quality of it's work across the board, but it's still the individuals who do the work. I have a lot of customers who trust me to do good work, and I'm not about to let them down. Same thing goes for all of the long time staff at my shop, and probably every other shop in the world.

[Kane]

It's embarrassing to see a shop sell accelerated entrophy. What price to pay for this rush to the future?

The first bike that I bought in 1971 was a Nishiki Competition. The front center pull brake was misalligned. I asked the owner to adjust it. He was a young guy (under 30), and he took out a steel punch and a hammer.
Whamm!!@! Perfectly centered with a nice chip on the Aluminum brake. The memory of that pains me to this day. Lesson learned.

Until now I have never thought of this person again. But, now I wonder what became of him and his life. I know that he couldn't have stayed in the bicycle world for long.

The expense of a headset press and tube that knocks out the crown race have caused me to forego the purchase. But, I live in Marin county near S.F. Our worst bike store is probably much better than your best. Try Park.com and good luck.

Cheers,

Kane

[flydhest]

but do your derailleur cables keep breaking or falling out? That is a test of a shop's ability. right, Sandy?

[bcm119]

Go to any thread about an LBS or the work done, notice the difference between positive comments and negative ones. Examples:

Case #1, a positive review: I went to [insert name of LBS here] where I had [insert name of person here] install my headset.

Case #2, a negative review: I went to my LBS where they installed a headset, and...

See the difference? Build a relationship with a few people at the shop. You can't build a relationship with the shop - it's a building. I deal with this issue all the time, working at a bike shop. Yeh, it's the responsibility of the shop to insure the quality of it's work across the board, but it's still the individuals who do the work. I have a lot of customers who trust me to do good work, and I'm not about to let them down. Same thing goes for all of the long time staff at my shop, and probably every other shop in the world.

Point taken, but... I'm not at that point yet. I'm a fairly new customer and, like I said, I'm trying to give them a chance. I've been friendly, I've bought parts there, etc. How will I get to that first name basis if they keep screwing up? Given my experience so far, why would I want to?

I'm curious as to how these LBS "relationships" are established if my "first date" goes sour.

[bostondrunk]

Ummmm....you shouldn't need to have a 'relationship' of any kind with a bike shop to expect that they do the work right.
I say go back with your bike, get the owner and show him the chip on your bike and the seat post. Tell him you are 'somewhat' dissapointed, and see what he says. If he brushes it off, then thank him for his time and tell him that you, and the 200 member bike club you ride with will never step in his shop again.
Or beat him with the seatopost, grab all the powergels you can and make a run for it.

[coylifut]

If you want to raise the issue with the shop, I'd just ride the bike over and show the owner what happened. But sometime stuff just happens. I built myself a rear wheel some time ago and taco'd it doing cross practice when I caught my toe on a barrier. Rather than rebuilding it myself, I took it in to my favorite lbs with a campy rim I had sitting around. They gave me the wheel back and the tension felt too loose. The wheel very quickly fell apart. Rather than making it an issue, I rebuilt it myself and no longer use that shop for wheel service. I've gone back to building my own wheels again. But I still use the shop. I've never mentioned the problem to the shop owner. He has done me so many favors, I would rather not bring it up.

I just go to Christoph's house whe i need something done

[Ti Designs]

Ummmm....you shouldn't need to have a 'relationship' of any kind with a bike shop to expect that they do the work right.

There are all sorts of things you shouldn't need to do, but the smart folks have figured out that it's worth the time to do them anyway. I know my auto mechanic by name, I know what kind of beer he drinks. He works on all kinds of cars for all kinds of customers, most of them don't expect to see paint chips or scratches when they get their cars back. I don't much care about chips or scratches, but I care about the boiling point of my brake fluid. Would I expect that from just anyone? I don't think so.

BCM,

The guys at bike shops don't bite. They understand that some people are fussy about the finish of their bikes, others just want the thing to work. If they can't handle a customer who doesn't want the bike to look like it was in a war, go elsewhere. If you tell them you're interested in keeping the bike looking new they should do that, and at some point you'll get to know them and they'll get to know you. It all works better that way.

[Ahneida Ride]

My LBS guru is the Shop Owner and Chief wrench and a bike fanatic.

I receive immediate service when I walk in.

All work is done flawlessly.

Think it helps when you deal directly with the owners ? You Betcha !!!

[bulliedawg]

There are all sorts of things you shouldn't need to do, but the smart folks have figured out that it's worth the time to do them anyway. I know my auto mechanic by name, I know what kind of beer he drinks. He works on all kinds of cars for all kinds of customers, most of them don't expect to see paint chips or scratches when they get their cars back. I don't much care about chips or scratches, but I care about the boiling point of my brake fluid. Would I expect that from just anyone? I don't think so.

BCM,

The guys at bike shops don't bite. They understand that some people are fussy about the finish of their bikes, others just want the thing to work. If they can't handle a customer who doesn't want the bike to look like it was in a war, go elsewhere. If you tell them you're interested in keeping the bike looking new they should do that, and at some point you'll get to know them and they'll get to know you. It all works better that way.

So, if I follow you're point, it's BCM's fault that the guy chipped (maybe) his frame, and gnarled (definitely) his seat post. And if I am to follow your point further, you are a bike shop employee who only does his best work for those with whom you have a "relationship." But in order to reach the "relationship" point, doesn't the shop have to do a good job? There ain't gonna be a relationship if the customers never go back because of shoddy work.

Thank God this is the only part of the economy that works this way. Can you imagine doctors taking this attitude? Or maybe school bus drivers? "Won't do my best today, because I really don't know these kids all that well..." as he drives through a RR crossing without stopping.

An unbelievable position to take. Delusional, really...

[pdxbikeboy]

as far as the paint flaking off this can certainly happen when installing a headset if the paint is fragile.I have seen it happen when facing bb and headtubes on all sorts of great bikes. It is unfortunate though the way the seatpost was clamped in a vise. Any professional service department should have a steerer tube vise holder(the one park makes works just fine). If this were to happen in my service department you would have a new seatpost cut the correct way and the employee would learn the correct procedures.

[cdmc]

But, I live in Marin county near S.F. Our worst bike store is probably much better than your best.

Cheers,

Kane

Think again. I live in central Contra Costa County and there are about 10 high end shops within 15 miles. I have had crappy work done at 3 of them, and those were the only 3 I was willing to try (the others had high end bikes but didn't impress me enough to even contemplate having them do work). This is after being charged top dollar. I usually do all my own work now, but in the last year have found a new shop that does almost nothing but service. They charge top $ for the service, but I have walked into the shop and witnessed the head mechanic torquing new brake pads to spec with a torque wrench (I think I saw his picture in the dictionary next to anal). I have a frame swap comming up and think I will spend the money and give them a go since time is tight.

[vandeda]

The seatpost could be dangerous ... broken seatposts are not unheard of, and now you've introduced stress raisers where a crack can initiate. I'd imagine that this would be a much more likely problem w/a lightweight seatpost, but keep in mind a good gouge can be something more than just cosmetic.

I would go to a different bike shop. Or, even better, find someone you trust. One guy I work with used to work at a bike shop for many years in Utah, is a bike fanatic, and very very very picky. And, since he's a friend and co-worker ... work is done at no charge :D Only part that stinks is when we come to work where none of us have the tools (we do some tool sharing w/a group of riders at work ... KAPL for those in the Albany area). The best person to find is that picky person who takes pride in their work ... they'll want to provide you with the best regardless if they know you or not.

Dan

[Ti Designs]

So, if I follow you're point, it's BCM's fault that the guy chipped (maybe) his frame, and gnarled (definitely) his seat post. And if I am to follow your point further, you are a bike shop employee who only does his best work for those with whom you have a "relationship." But in order to reach the "relationship" point, doesn't the shop have to do a good job? There ain't gonna be a relationship if the customers never go back because of shoddy work.

Thank God this is the only part of the economy that works this way. Can you imagine doctors taking this attitude? Or maybe school bus drivers? "Won't do my best today, because I really don't know these kids all that well..." as he drives through a RR crossing without stopping.


Nope, you're not folloing my point. I'm not assigning blame on anyone, I'm simply saying that the best service is personal. As for the rest of the world working that way, if you expect anything beyond the standard, it's either personal or expensive. As for your two examples, the expectation of a bus driver is safety. If one of the kids forgets something on the bus and the bus driver knows them, they would probably make the extra effort to get it back to them, if not??? As for the doctor example, thanks for making my point. I've been to the emergency room a few times, seen a lot of doctors I didn't know, never gotten good treatment. I have my own doctor who knows who I am, knows that I ride a lot and knows I get poison ivy when I go mountain biking. Why would I ever want to have a doctor who didn't know who I am? So they can make blanket assumptions about me, most of which are wrong???

Getting back to my original point, good reviews almost always list someone by name, bad ones are almost always about some guy behind the counter. Take from that what you will.

[flydhest]

I reckon both bullie and TiDesigns have a point. However, as you put it Ti, if you expect anything beyond standard, it's either personal or expensive.

Part of my frustration with the shops around here--and what seems to be the sentiment of others on the site--is that I think that careful work that doesn't scratch a seat post falls into the "standard" category.

I am sympathetic to the notion that personal relationships (can) make business relationships better, but it strikes me that defining the "standard" is a point of contention.

re: the beginning of posts, positive and negative, in general, I think people are more comfortable naming names in accolades than in flaming someone. It is perceived as bad form by many to slam a shop and employee by name. When I have a gripe, I'll post about it anonymously if I think it will generate discussion. With friends in the area, I'll tell them which shop, but unless I think a shop is dangerous, it would take a lot for me to name names.

[bulliedawg]

Nope, you're not folloing my point. I'm not assigning blame on anyone, I'm simply saying that the best service is personal. As for the rest of the world working that way, if you expect anything beyond the standard, it's either personal or expensive. As for your two examples, the expectation of a bus driver is safety. If one of the kids forgets something on the bus and the bus driver knows them, they would probably make the extra effort to get it back to them, if not??? As for the doctor example, thanks for making my point. I've been to the emergency room a few times, seen a lot of doctors I didn't know, never gotten good treatment. I have my own doctor who knows who I am, knows that I ride a lot and knows I get poison ivy when I go mountain biking. Why would I ever want to have a doctor who didn't know who I am? So they can make blanket assumptions about me, most of which are wrong???

Getting back to my original point, good reviews almost always list someone by name, bad ones are almost always about some guy behind the counter. Take from that what you will.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I own a business. I know plenty of other people who own businesses similar to bike shops. There is a level of service that is expected no matter the depth or shallowness of the relationship between customer and business. In the business of fixing something, that basic level is "first do no harm." BCM's bike shop did harm, and therefore violated that basic tenet of the repair business.

Now, I certainly wouldn't expect the bike shop to give him some water bottles, or extend him credit, or even take his check. But I do expect "first do no harm," no matter how many times he's been there.

[Sandy]

If I brought my Serotta or brand ABC bike into a new shop, should I only expect STANDARD service, but if I wanted SERVICE BETTER THAN STANDARD, then I should expect to pay more for it, or wait until I personally know the mechanic and/or owner? That seems wrong from both a shop and customer perspective. A service customer should expect repairs done to be done equally well for all customers. There is a basic reasonable service that is to be expected from all customers. Are you saying that a new customer should be satisfied with the scratched seatpost, whereas a rich customer willing to pay extra money for the service or a customer with a personal relationship should expect better service? There is a right way to cut a seatpost, and that certainly does not include scratching it for anyone. The ACTUAL repair service to be done should be done to the same quality level for all. There is a right way and a wrong way, which is independent of who the customer is.

Certain amenities, such as a quicker turn around time, better payment structure, better pricing,... might be expected for a loyal customer for the lbs.
A new customer should be treated equally well in the ACTUAL repair service, because he is paying for the service and not the personal relationship. If the service is not adequate then the lbs and/or mechanic will never get another chance, and that makes the lbs stupid, in my opinion.

So what are you saying-

1. Do a better job of repair for an older more established customer, or for a rich one willing to pay for it.

2. A personal relationship adds to the overall service, the amenities of service.

If you are saying 1. then you are very wrong, and I would never want to enter your shop.

If you are saying 2., we all are mature and experienced enough to know that by now.

I certainly hope that you are not joining 1. and 2. when it comes to the actual repair

Personal relationships, names and all, are helpful, but a scratched seatpost is not acceptable service for anyone, period. The actual repair job should be done equally well for all, if not, the shop sucks.

I guess a lot of what you say is dependent upon what you mean by standard.

Sad Scratched Seatpost Sandy

[roseyscot]

If I brought my Serotta or brand ABC bike into a new shop, should I only expect STANDARD service, but if I wanted SERVICE BETTER THAN STANDARD, then I should expect to pay more for it, or wait until I personally know the mechanic and/or owner? That seems wrong from both a shop and customer perspective. A service customer should expect repairs done to be done equally well for all customers. There is a basic reasonable service that is to be expected from all customers. Are you saying that a new customer should be satisfied with the scratched seatpost, whereas a rich customer willing to pay extra money for the service or a customer with a personal relationship should expect better service? There is a right way to cut a seatpost, and that certainly does not include scratching it for anyone. The ACTUAL repair service to be done should be done to the same quality level for all. There is a right way and a wrong way, which is independent of who the customer is.

Certain amenities, such as a quicker turn around time, better payment structure, better pricing,... might be expected for a loyal customer for the lbs.
A new customer should be treated equally well in the ACTUAL repair service, because he is paying for the service and not the personal relationship. If the service is not adequate then the lbs and/or mechanic will never get another chance, and that makes the lbs stupid, in my opinion.

So what are you saying-

1. Do a better job of repair for an older more established customer, or for a rich one willing to pay for it.

2. A personal relationship adds to the overall service, the amenities of service.

If you are saying 1. then you are very wrong, and I would never want to enter your shop.

If you are saying 2., we all are mature and experienced enough to know that by now.

I certainly hope that you are not joining 1. and 2. when it comes to the actual repair

Personal relationships, names and all, are helpful, but a scratched seatpost is not acceptable service for anyone, period. The actual repair job should be done equally well for all, if not, the shop sucks.

I guess a lot of what you say is dependent upon what you mean by standard.

Sad Scratched Seatpost Sandy

It is becoming more and more clear why certain shops are well known locally for their condescending treatment and holier than though attitude. As Sandy says, #2 should be obvious, but unfortunately many shop employees only practice #1.

[Ti Designs]

1) Bike shops should all do exelent work. If they don't, go elsewhere.

2) I have a secret way of getting personalized service.

[Climb01742]

there's a restuarant i go to that has this hand-written sign on the tip jar next to the cash register..."inspire me to serve you even better". i've never put a penny in that jar. and i find myself going there less and less.

[Jeff N.]

Yet another argument to do your own maintenance. For the seatpost you could've gone to Home Depot and picked up a handy (and cheap) pipe cutter and done a clean job of lopping off excess tube. And a headset press. I've used mine many, many times over the years.And so on and so on. I woulda went NUTS if they'd done that to my seatpost. F'ing incompetents! They should be executed! Jeff N.

[csb]

dont forget: 'The Pain In The As$ Fee'

i'll give it in bids to customers because, while
i'm willing to do the work and do it right, those
particular clients are not the usual so do not get
the usual price.

[LONE RIDER]

I just have to comment. My LBS installed a Chris King headset on my Legend with a painted F1 fork. When removing the lower bearing race from the fork some of the paint chipped off around the bottom of the lower race and the top of the fork. The shop finished the installation and I had my wife pick up the bike. Later, the LBS owner called and offered to remove the fork, send it to Serotta and have it repainted at his cost. I am going to have it re-painted but I dont think I will let the LBS pay for it. The flaking is not a result of poor skills, its just what happens - it would have happened to anyone. The point is: he offered and for that I remain a loyal customer. So now maybe you have a data point on which to judge LBS performance. :beer:

[Ti Designs]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I own a business. I know plenty of other people who own businesses similar to bike shops. There is a level of service that is expected no matter the depth or shallowness of the relationship between customer and business.

I don't agree that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one - let me restate that, you're right. I never said there shouldn't be a standard of service. In fact, I think your standard of "do no harm" falls a bit short. If they can do no better than "do no harm", perhaps they can also adopt the policy of "charge no money". Much of this comes down to symantics, if a shop has a standard of service which is given to anyone who walks in, then each customer gets that standard. You can call it "just standard" or "only standard", but you can't fight for both sides, there is no above average service for all, by definition of average there can't be.

My LBS installed a Chris King headset on my Legend with a painted F1 fork. When removing the lower bearing race from the fork some of the paint chipped off around the bottom of the lower race and the top of the fork. The shop finished the installation and I had my wife pick up the bike. Later, the LBS owner called and offered to remove the fork, send it to Serotta and have it repainted at his cost.

There is a shop owner who knows the value of a loyal customer. If the owner called you there is at least the start of a personal relationship as well as a long term retail relationship. That long term retail relationship is what the owner is betting on to offset the cost of painting the fork. How much did the headset install cost? How much does it cost to repaint a fork? How do they stay in business doing that? The answer is simple, they create a personal relationship with the customer in the process - it's a small investment that pays big over time.

There are a few things about this thread I don't get:

1) Why do people assume I'm arguing against a minimum level of service? At my shop (some large Serotta dealer in Belmont MA) I'm the first one in the onwers face when someone they hire doesn't hold up to standards.

2) Why do people get all bent out of shape when I say that higher standards are either expensive or personal? Example: we had a tandem in where the disk brake mounts weren't in the right place. There are no adaptors for this application, so they asked me to make a part. I machined the part out of 6061 aluminum, the brake fit perfectly and the quality of the work was better than that of the frame. It was NOT cheap, nor should it have been. As for the personal bit, ever have a friend do something for you for free that would cost others money?

3) Why do people overestimate what I mean when I say a personal relationship? As soon as I know someone by name there is a higher expectation of service in my mind (and there's so little in my mind...). I had a guy today who just needed brake cables, so our conversation turned to the frame and if it had cable stops or cable guides. I wound up setting him up with enough housing to make the whole run but gave him extra cable ends in case it had stops. Then I gave him a set of little rubber donuts (to keep the bare cable from ringing against the frame) and those little nameless things that go on the end of the cables to keep them from fraying. It's a personal relationship, the next time he walks in and sees me he'll be thinking "hey, that's the guy who helped me with my cables", or "hey, that's the jerk who gave me derailleur cables for my brakes" if I screwed up (which I didn't). It's not rocket science...

4) Getting back to the original post for a second, clamping a seatpost in the vise is nothing short of stupid. That would justify a little talk with the shop owner. At best you're asking for the seatpost to get stuck in the frame. As for the chip in the paint, your expectations of the mechanic are kinda high. When I got my first Peter Mooney, Peter took me aside and showed me how he preps his frames when they come back from the painters. He showed me that scoring the outside of the head tube with a swiss pattern file and then using a second cut file to remove the paint from the faced surfaces will keep the rest of the paint from chipping. Maybe a half dozen people at my shop know to do that - and we work on a lot of high end bikes. There are times when you need more than "the guy behind the counter", you need someone you can trust with your equipment. Example: when someone brings in a Nuovo Record hub for new bearings, how many mechanics have been around long enough to know that they use 7/32" balls, not 3/16" like all the others? I'll bet if I put it to the test it would come back with the wrong size bearings at least half the time (that includes my own shop I'm sad to say - I've had two come back that way).

A few years back there was a new bike shop in the Boston area modeled after Staples - "the office superstore". Their business plan said that each staff member would know everything about every aspect of cycling. I want to meet that person, 'cause after 20 years in the bike business I might know a little... My point here is that perfectly uniform service is unrealistic. The best service comes from bringing things to the right people. If you don't belive that, try bringing your watch to the lumber yard for repair...

[Climb01742]

i think there's truth on both sides. customers, all customers, should expect "good" service. the next level, remarkable service -- which is uniformly offered to all customers, but comes from a company saying, we'll make service our hallmark, like nordstrom's department store -- is what takes us from being a customer to being a loyal customer. and then there's that next, top level of service. which is, as Ti says, a special, case by case, personal thing. i feel that at the LBS Ti works at, but it's been built over 15 years and has been built, and rebuilt, with a succession of people at the shop. the worst case, and this one happens most often in restuarants i find, is when people only give you decent service based on wanting a tip. you can sense this a mile off.