Irresponsible rumor mongering

[LegendRider]

I've been told that Litespeed is going out of business. Apparently it has to do with their inability to maintain financing for operations. I don't know if it is the American Bicycle Group or just Litespeed. Heck, I don't know if it's true but my source is a reliable Ootlewah local.

It sounds plausible. Ti sales have got to be down. My casual empiricism tells me far fewer people buy Litespeeds than 10 years ago. And, finally, tight lending standards by banks are a fact. So, again, this is a rumor - treat it as such.

[dumbod]

I've been hearing rumors like this for a couple of years and it hasn't been true. Doesn't mean that it isn't true this time though. I can't say I'd be surprised. It's too bad, ti is a great material for bikes and Litespeed/Merlin make great bikes. I enjoy my carbon bike but the carbon craze is WAY over the top.

[Pete Serotta]

Ti has come back (not to what it was 10 year ago) but Moots, Ericksen, Serotta, Spectrum are selling a fair amount AND it is a wonderful ride...

[LegendRider]

Ti has come back (not to what it was 10 year ago) but Moots, Ericksen, Serotta, Spectrum are selling a fair amount AND it is a wonderful ride...


I'd love to know the total number of titanium frames Serotta has sold by year since the Legend was first introduced.

[caleb]

If it's true, it's a shame. Litespeed is making great bikes right now. If they've failed it's because they haven't marketed themselves very well. Their website is useless and they haven't capitalized on the fetish for "craft", "artesian", and "handmade" in the same way that others have. I honestly think one good marketing guy with camera and internet skills could have turned the whole thing around.

[Smiley]

Ti does not hold the same sex appeal today as it did, does not make it less desireable but for me the new steels materials are something sweet, if I lived in a bad area like Florida for steel Ti would be my only choice but since I don't and have multiple bikes its steel for me. Carbone is for airplanes now :)

[Pete Serotta]

on fat tires - (unless it is a beer). and on Ti verses Steel.....(unless it is a lugged steel) :) :D


Ti does not hold the same sex appeal today as it did, does not make it less desireable but for me the new steels materials are something sweet, if I lived in a bad area like Florida for steel Ti would be my only choice but since I don't and have multiple bikes its steel for me. Carbone is for airplanes now :)

[benb]

Maybe Litespeed is improving but I think they lost a lot of reputation and the way they've taken their marketing & frame designs is not interesting to me personally.

I've had several friends who cracked their Ti litespeeds (no crashes), that certainly steered me away from them. (That rep seemed to filter through the area)

Last time I looked I was not able to find a single image or reputable story on the internet of a Ti Serotta cracking due to poor workmanship. I'm sure there are some out there, but the way that the internet magnifies the faults of any products, I find that pretty darn amazing.

I think the only destroyed Serotta's I found were all on this forum, and they were all accidents involving motor vehicles.

Might have something to do with rumors?

[David Kirk]

I heard they only eat their sandwiches with the crust cut off.

Just sayin.

Dave

[dd74]

Marketing? Well, I don't know. Weren't they running that ad in the bicycle magazines with the Cheetah atop a Litespeed. Loved that ad.

Whenever I talk to someone about Ti frames, Litespeed is the first manufacturer to come up, followed closely by Moots. Others, not so much.

Re. rumor: sux if true.

[Elefantino]

I don't known about Litespeed, but I do know that Saab is toast.

Apparently TdF commercials and being born from jets don't count in a recession, or when you're owned by General Motors.

[dd74]

I don't known about Litespeed, but I do know that Saab is toast.

Apparently TdF commercials and being born from jets don't count in a recession, or when you're owned by General Motors.
Yep. GM effectively killed the brand since they can't get a buyer. It sucks, but again, the new Saabs weren't the Saabs of the 70s and early 80s. Those were great cars.

[caleb]

Marketing? Well, I don't know. Weren't they running that ad in the bicycle magazines with the Cheetah atop a Litespeed. Loved that ad.

Whenever I talk to someone about Ti frames, Litespeed is the first manufacturer to come up, followed closely by Moots. Others, not so much.

Re. rumor: sux if true.

To put it differently, I don't think Litespeed goes to NAHBS, and I doubt Rapha will ever be using their bikes in a photo shoot/epic ride.

Building solid bikes isn't enough, you've also got to make people desire them on an emotional level.

[Elefantino]

Ti does not hold the same sex appeal today as it did, does not make it less desireable but for me the new steels materials are something sweet, if I lived in a bad area like Florida for steel Ti would be my only choice but since I don't and have multiple bikes its steel for me.
a) depends on what kind of sex appeal, or what kind of sex, you're talking about, and b) Florida is not a bad area. Florida is why God made JPW, so he could make Frame Saver.

Carbone is for airplanes now
Airplanes are OT. Shame on you. :D

[KeithS]

I'm told I will be seeing an Archon C series soon. I ride with some guys on Archon's and an Icon or two. I'm not much impressed with the paint jobs, but then again I like my ti naked.

[Elefantino]

I like my ti naked.
Naked ti vs. Naked steel?

Give me ti.

Chrome 953 doesn't count and besides it's too blinding.

[dd74]

Naked and going blind are definitely OT. :D

[thwart]

No, no, no---I think it's what you do, while naked, that can make you go blind---that's what's OT. :D

[KeithS]

I meant unpainted. I know I started it. Sorry. Back to the topic - unfounded rumors.

[Brian Smith]

I've been told that Litespeed is going out of business. Apparently it has to do with their inability to maintain financing for operations. I don't know if it is the American Bicycle Group or just Litespeed. Heck, I don't know if it's true but my source is a reliable Ootlewah local.

It sounds plausible. Ti sales have got to be down. My casual empiricism tells me far fewer people buy Litespeeds than 10 years ago. And, finally, tight lending standards by banks are a fact. So, again, this is a rumor - treat it as such.

It's possible Ti sales can be up or steady, but Litespeed sales down.
For my opinion, I think they do some difficult things well in fabrication, but maybe do some difficult business things not as well. Who knows for sure.
Since they belong to a much larger group than just Litespeed, and they do/did a lot more than "just" ti bike frames, if they're experiencing trouble it could be a littany of tribulations rather than just "ti sales being down."

I know you stressed the idea that what you've heard is a rumor, but I think probably it would take more than the sales of ti frames being down to cause some kind of collapsing failure.

[Ken Robb]

Yep. GM effectively killed the brand since they can't get a buyer. It sucks, but again, the new Saabs weren't the Saabs of the 70s and early 80s. Those were great cars.

Oh BS-- they were had weird ergos and decent driving dynamics. Niche cars all the way for bearded sandal-footed Granola munchers. See what my good pal Satch Carlson has to write about rallying Sonnets, et.al.

[Sandy]

Oh BS-- they were had weird ergos and decent driving dynamics. Niche cars all the way for bearded sandal-footed Granola munchers. See what my good pal Satch Carlson has to write about rallying Sonnets, et.al.

I owned a 1980 Saab turbo. I assume you mean ergonomics above--- To find the ignition and somehow determine what gear you needed to place the car in to start it was not so simple unless someone told you.

Never had a beard or ever wore sandals, and don't think I ever tasted Granola until a few years ago in Granola bars............



Saab Sandy

PS- Must admit that my cars before and after the Saab were all German made, with the exception of my first.

[goonster]

Niche cars all the way for bearded sandal-footed Granola munchers. See what my good pal Satch Carlson has to write about rallying Sonnets, et.al.
Dunno what Satch wrote, Sonnets were not proper SAABS, imo, and anyway, SAAB's won more rallys than BMW's, nicht wahr?

My uncle, R.I.P., a no-nonsense German entrepeneur, and very much anything but a sandal-wearing granola muncher, drove SAAB exclusively after Citroen failed to live up to his standards. He onced rolled a Turbo at German highway speeds, and walked away unscathed. They built some good cars, and deserve some respect for that today, atmo.

[dd74]

Oh BS-- they were had weird ergos and decent driving dynamics. Niche cars all the way for bearded sandal-footed Granola munchers. See what my good pal Satch Carlson has to write about rallying Sonnets, et.al.
Ummm...I defer to the two posters above who present compelling arguments about the Saab brand that GM, in my opinion, demolished into crap.

Long ago, Road and Track magazine featured an article about rally racing. I can't remember the name of the driver who was quoted, but I partially remember his quote: "With front-wheel-drive, you sure as bloody hell won't get bent." (sic).

The photo for that story was of a 60s era Saab (fwd), on one wheel after descending a jump. I believe the surface it was on were cobblestones.

"Ergos" aside, the old-school Saab was, IMO, Porsche tough. Of course, we all know what Carroll Shelby said about Porsche after winning the 24 hrs. of Le Mans: "If it were 25 hours, Porsche would have won." The old Saab are regarded to be in that category.

Anyway, at least GM hasn't ruined Holden -- whomever purchased one of those when there was a Pontiac, definitely has a prized possession. The G8 is an absolute BMW M5 killer for half the $$$.

But I digress from nakedness or whatever this thread concerns... :D

[LegendRider]

It's possible Ti sales can be up or steady, but Litespeed sales down.
For my opinion, I think they do some difficult things well in fabrication, but maybe do some difficult business things not as well. Who knows for sure.
Since they belong to a much larger group than just Litespeed, and they do/did a lot more than "just" ti bike frames, if they're experiencing trouble it could be a littany of tribulations rather than just "ti sales being down."

I know you stressed the idea that what you've heard is a rumor, but I think probably it would take more than the sales of ti frames being down to cause some kind of collapsing failure.


I suggested that the sale of ti frames might be one factor. Their rumored inability get extensions on their line(s) of credit is the primary reason.

[dumbod]

I don't known about Litespeed, but I do know that Saab is toast.

Apparently TdF commercials and being born from jets don't count in a recession, or when you're owned by General Motors.

As I understand it, all Saabs are made from Ti.

[oldpotatoe]

Yep. GM effectively killed the brand since they can't get a buyer. It sucks, but again, the new Saabs weren't the Saabs of the 70s and early 80s. Those were great cars.

"Saab" still makes some nice stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAS_39_Gripen

[avalonracing]

After spending time on other materials I've put a Ti road bike and Ti MTB back in the stable. It think I can now say that I will always have a Ti bike as a main ride. Design and manufacturing techniques have now been able to correct what bugged me about my older Ti bikes.

American Bicycle Group (Litespeed and Merlin's parent) makes a great bike but they do seem to be very lost in terms of how to market. They make too many models, one year Merlin is all about racing bikes, the next about artisan bikes.

When you make more Ti bikes than anyone, have a long building history and most importantly are making bikes from a material that as overall advantages over almost every other material you would think that the bikes would sell themselves. They don't.

Marketing such a great product should be fairly easy.
Ti MTBs are light, comfortable, durable and don't rust. Yet people are lusting after steel MTBs that rust, dent and scratch. Why? Marketing and "cool" factor is a lot of the reason. Sure, steel MTBs are great, but MTBs take serious abuse and if you are scratching it up then you probably aren't riding it hard enough. I can't tell you how may dented IFs that I've seen.

I also can't believe that Ti road bikes have allowed carbon bikes to eat their lunch. Again, you can get a great ride from carbon. But they do break. I've seen high end carbon bikes blow up from minor mishaps that would barely scratch the decal on a Ti bike. Steal road rides can be amazing works of art that ride like a dream, but they still scratch and rust which kinda sucks for something that is supposed to be ridden outside for thousands of miles in all weather conditions.

Come on ABG this should be an easy sell. Everyone wants a Seven. Yes, they are great bikes but they also have a cool factor that you have missed the boat on. Hell, it took you a decade to finally change that horrible yellow logo that everyone hated (fact- a few friends of mine, all serious riders and racers once agreed that they couldn't ride a Litespeed because of that yellow logo).

I have a Seven hardtail MTB and a Merlin CRTi road bike. They are both fantastic bikes but people are always jazzed to check out the Seven and give less time to the Merlin. Why? Marketing.

I hope that ABG sticks around, it would be a loss to to the industry if another great American manufacturer disappears.

[eddief]

http://www.litespeed.com/bikes/current/c3.aspx

[rustychain]

Funny thing is Lynskey looks to be doing OK. He was the soul of Lightspeed IMO.

What's with a Chromed 953???? Blasphemy. 953 should stand naked (or at least half dressed like mine) for the whole world to see

Had the old two cycle Saab (62) were you had to put oil in with the gas. GREAT car. Wish I had it today (dang blizzard)
:beer:

[aosty]

I'm more concerned Merlin, ABG's other ti brand, will go under...

http://jonesbikes.com/blog/?p=1145

Merlin informed us, after we had placed an order for more frame sets with them, that they wont be able to build for us anymore. They wont be building as many ti frames as before and wont be building anymore aftermarket frames. Unfortunately many of the people who were involved with the Jones frames are no longer employed there. I thank every one involved with the frames and those of you who bought one.. or more. The frames have been beautiful and I’m glad we were able to make them available for the time that they were.

[Joellogicman]

Ummm...I defer to the two posters above who present compelling arguments about the Saab brand that GM, in my opinion, demolished into crap.

GM did not so much as demolish the Saab brand as kept it alive for an extra 20 years. Saab-Scania was a money losing pit of an operation. After GM made the clearly ill-advised acquisition, it poured millions of dollars into Saab.

By the mid-80s Saab was a redundant brand in Europe with limited North American dealerships and almost no sales outlets in Asia and South America. The big European and Japanese makes all had better and more product competing for Saab's market. Even Saab's turbo technology was out dated.

I certainly agree GM should not have bought Saab and after buying did the brand no favors. If GM had not Saab would have been dead long before now.

On topic, too bad about Merlin and Jones Bike. Probably means back to a three five year wait for perhaps the only frame one can honestly describe as ethereal. Hope Mr. Jones can find a new partner.

[PaulE]

Oh BS-- they were had weird ergos and decent driving dynamics. Niche cars all the way for bearded sandal-footed Granola munchers. See what my good pal Satch Carlson has to write about rallying Sonnets, et.al.

Exactly why did he fall off the face of the earth from writing his Autoweek column a long long time ago? One week he was there and the next week gone as if he never existed. All I ever heard as to why the sudden change was a rumor.

Last year I took a chance on a magazine called Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car when they sent me a teaser subscription offer. A definite bonus was to find that Satch Carlson writes a monthly column in it.

Back to Litespeed/American Bicycle Group rumors, if there is life left in their brands and "just" cash flow/financing issues they're having, some private equity, venture capital, turnaoround firm will come in at the right price.


Keep this in mind the next time you are about to repeat a rumour.

In ancient Greece (469 - 399 BC), Socrates was widely lauded for his wisdom.

One day an acquaintance ran up to him excitedly and said, 'Socrates, do you know what I just heard about one of your students?'

'Wait a moment,' Socrates replied. 'Before you tell me I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter Test.'

'Triple filter?' asked the acquaintance.

'That's right,' Socrates continued. 'Before you talk to me about my student let's take a moment to filter what you're going to say. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?'

'No,' the man said, 'actually I just heard about it.'

'All right,' said Socrates. 'So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my student something good?'

'No, on the contrary ....'.

'So,' Socrates continued, 'you want to tell me something bad about him, even though you're not certain it's true?'.

The man shrugged, a little embarrassed. Socrates continued..' You may still pass the test though, because there is a third filter - the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my student going to be useful to me?'

'No, not really...'

'Well,' concluded Socrates, 'if what you want to tell me is neither True nor Good nor even Useful, why tell it to me at all?'

The man was defeated and ashamed. This is the reason Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem.

It also explains why he never found out that Plato was shagging his wife.

[Joellogicman]

It also explains why he never found out that Plato was shagging his wife.

I heard it was Xenophon.

[Ken Robb]

Satch is Editor-in-Chief of Roundel as well as writing for Hemmings. For a giggle check out the results in the 115mph class of the Silver State Challenge for last May.