Custom/small builder saturation

[Roy E. Munson]

It seems to me like the number of custom/small shop builders is increasing by the day. Every time you blink, there's a new one popping up.

"I cleaned toilets for <insert proven builder name> so I can build a good frame as well!" Throw in a few buzzwords, maybe mix carbon and spaghetti frames, and there's always some guy with more money than brains willing to drop the dime to own one of these.

It reminds me of the state of professional team sports with all the expansion teams. There's way more of them, the overall quality sucks, and it's a drain from the originals!

:argue:

[jeffg]

the Treks, Colnagos, and DeRosas of the world are still doing fine. Your stock frame will be ready for you anytime.

Seriously, this is one free-market development I am completely sanguine about. If you had to be big to start, theere would be no Sachs, Parlee/Calfee, Serotta, etc. I am glad they are there.

Just like any purchase, you should look be selective. I can only have 1-2 bikes, so I try to choose wisely. I have a Serotta and a Parlee, but I would be very happy with a Look, a Sachs, a Spectrum, or maybe a Specialized from a fit/geometry perspective. That's the most important element, at least when you are my size. :banana:

[e-RICHIE]

are you serious?

[Big Dan]

Simple suppy and demand should take care of that. If the builder has something to bring he/she will find a market or not..... :p

[Roy E. Munson]

"are you serious?"

Yes!!!!

[dirtdigger88]

I am going to agree with the Econimics 101 theory- Take my field (landscaping) as an example- As the economy turns down in an area and people get laid off of their (insert job here) job- many think that since they have a truck and a lawn mower they can go into business for them selves- I loose a contract here and there every year to the "truck and trailer" guy. Soon enough though they figure out that it isn't that easy- (by they I mean the truck and trailer guy and the client). Keep in mind that what I do is the commercial end of things- I take care of malls, hospitals, condos/apartment, universities, etc- we don't cut "your" lawn. Then market will dictate who stay in business and who doesnt- now the bad part is that in the mean time someone pays for an inferior product- be it a frame or their grounds maintance. I now step down from the soap box-

Jason

[e-RICHIE]

i think there's more interest in building frames these days,
but fewer folks are actually doing it commercially.

[Too Tall]

(loosely adapted from Cornelius: reading from the sacred scrolls of the apes)

Beware the bicycle frame maker , for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he welds for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's Anvil frame jig. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his shop and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of carbon tubing.

[flydhest]

jason,

I gotta disagree a bit here. A customer sees your work a couple times, sees lots of other malls or office buildings, they have a very good idea of what quality is and what quality means. Moreover, it's a repeated interaction. Through time, a client works with the company over and over.

Bikes is different. In markets with incomplete information, there is no reason to think an efficient outcome will obtain. Imagine an extreme case where each person only bought a single bike and didn't know other cyclists. In this case, the ability of the bike seller to convince the potential customers that their bike is the best is what matters. The customer may believe that a certain material is "better" or that a certain style of geometry or bike is what's best because they don't know any better. To the extent that the imperfect information persists, the market can continue to support lower quality or higher price producers just because the consumer doesn't know any better.

A bicycle is not a widget. Now, clearly neither is a lawn/landscape, however, I think one can make a convincing argument that lots of people buy bikes that are inappropriate for them based on a lack of knowledge and that most people (present company excluded) don't buy many bikes in their lives.

and csb is right, your avatar looks like Marty Feldman dressed up as e-richie's sister.

[SGP]

at the end of the velonews artical about the hand built show in Houston, there is an eight page list of names.

[e-RICHIE]

you have to do better than that!

vn solicited for info through their internet site; that list
hardly resembles reality as far as commerce is concerned.


ps
great koan!

[dirtdigger88]

Fly- other than the fact that for me the truck and trailer guy come in 30-40 cheaper than me on say a 100k contract- no matter what anyone says the client takes a hard look at that guy- many times they go with him based only on the price- but soon they learn that there is a reason for my pricing structure- I have lots of resources and can get work done time and time again- you are probably right the two don't really relate- I guess I just think that the market will dictate who survives and who doesnt-

Jason

[SGP]

you have to do better than that!

vn solicited for info through their internet site; that list
hardly resembles reality as far as commerce is concerned.

i have no doubt of this, i'm sure that it was widley regarded as a free advertising festival.
most small business fail. it must be an even more doomed undertaking starting a business in such a small niche

ps
great koan!

thanks

[Big Dan]

Fly, thanks to Al Gore we have information via the Internet.... :D
You have to think that the market can only sustain a finite number of custom builders, you can't assume that all cyclist are going to buy a custom bike.
Of the 2K + members of this forum not all of them have or want a custom bike......Afterall a custom bike is a luxury, landscaping is more of a need....

[flydhest]

I guess I just think that the market will dictate who survives and who doesnt-

Jason

That is a true and accurate statement, however, the market is made up of people on both sides making choices. How they make those choices is sometimes that problem.

oh, and can you cut my lawn? :p

[flydhest]

Fly, thanks to Al Gore we have information via the Internet.... :D
You have to think that the market can only sustain a finite number of custom builders, you can't assume that all cyclist are going to buy a custom bike.
Of the 2K + members of this forum not all of them have or want a custom bike......Afterall a custom bike is a luxury, landscaping is more of a need....

we have "information" via the internet. The fact that only a finite number of bike builders survives is assuredly true. What is not clear, however, is which ones it will be. Beta lost to VHS. Macs almost lost to Microsoft (and are a considerably smaller market share). Many techno people point to these as market outcomes that were inefficient.

Why did so many people buy mountain bikes in the 1990s and yet only ride them on pavement? They didn't know any better and believed what bikeshops or their friends or the internet told them. As a result, there was a contraction in the road bike business.

[Big Dan]

Good points Fly.....How about what happened to the trusty old 8 Track?.. :D

[dirtdigger88]

That is a true and accurate statement, however, the market is made up of people on both sides making choices. How they make those choices is sometimes that problem.

oh, and can you cut my lawn? :p

I can but I think the drive time will kill you- I actually had a route several years ago that my crew left on a monday- cut all day- got a hotel- and cut again on tuesday and drove back- the jobs were maybe 3.5 hours away- the hotel turned out to be cheaper than the drive- man I do some crazy **** sometime in the name of cut grass- that becomes a thread all by its self

Jason

[cpg]

I agree that there's probably more builders in this country now than ever before but I can't say that definitively. Richard's right. They may be more but most are hobby builders. Nothing wrong with that. Roy was there a sentiment of something about your posting or was it just meant as a declaration of fact? I don't think it's a bad thing that there's so many builders. Separating the men from the boys (so to speak) isn't too difficult.

Curt

[dirtdigger88]

Good points Fly.....How about what happened to the trusty old 8 Track?.. :D

How about paper Encyclopedias- the internet killed that industry as well

encyclopedias today- porn mags tomorrow- what will be next :crap:

jason

[davids]

It seems to me like the number of custom/small shop builders is increasing by the day. Every time you blink, there's a new one popping up.

"I cleaned toilets for <insert proven builder name> so I can build a good frame as well!" Throw in a few buzzwords, maybe mix carbon and spaghetti frames, and there's always some guy with more money than brains willing to drop the dime to own one of these.

It reminds me of the state of professional team sports with all the expansion teams. There's way more of them, the overall quality sucks, and it's a drain from the originals!

:argue:
Yeah, I hate it when people get all ambitious and excited about something they love, and have the gall to try and make their dreams come true.

Where were you when Ben Serotta, or e-Richie, or Sacha White, or Tom Kellogg were starting out? They sure could have used your purile cynicism then!

I'm going back to ignoring you now.

[Roy E. Munson]

"I'm going back to ignoring you now"

That hurts!
I thought BumbleBeeDave was the resident moralist?

[Roy E. Munson]

This is great, I knew I could rile at least one person up completely beyond their boiling point today with a post. Congrats David S, you win!
:D :butt: :D

[coylifut]

I quit reading it somewhere mid way down the As. I thought, "wow, never knew there were so many custom builders." I suppose 10% of em are making 90% of the money.

[terry]

personally, i think this is a great time for lovers of bikes, esp. steel bikes. nothing better than new blood & competition to improve the breed. over the years i've seen a few builders get into the game purely out of passion for the sport, not a bad thing at all. they have to start somewhere. i bought a peter mooney back in '80 when he was a real unknown (to most), he's considered a master by many nowadays & i still have that frame. there's always room for more, especially quality builders (who here wouldn't want a Vanilla?-and sacha's a relative newcomer). i've seen stuff by Circle A buildrs in RI & they do beautiful work, another newbie. like most here i'd love a sachs or a weigle or a moon but i don't have the patience to wait 2-3 yrs. there are a lot of great builders out there and i say the more the merrier.

[dgauthier]

It seems to me like the number of custom/small shop builders is increasing by the day. Every time you blink, there's a new one popping up.

"I cleaned toilets for <insert proven builder name> so I can build a good frame as well!" Throw in a few buzzwords, maybe mix carbon and spaghetti frames, and there's always some guy with more money than brains willing to drop the dime to own one of these.

It reminds me of the state of professional team sports with all the expansion teams. There's way more of them, the overall quality sucks, and it's a drain from the originals!

:argue:

May I guess that you've gotten that impression from the internet? I would assert that by collecting nation-wide information together on your desktop, the internet creates the impression of a glut where in fact a scarcity exists.

How many frame builders are in your local area, Roy? How many custom bike builders can you find in your local yellow pages? I live in Los Angeles, a city of 12 million, and I'm only aware of one local builder of quality road frames.

The internet creates an artificial feeling of proximity. Remember that the builders you're aware of are scattered over the entire United States. Their numbers on a per capita basis are slim indeed.

[Climb01742]

i'm of two minds:

#1 mind: roy, you're an *ss. when my partners and i started our company, did the world need another ad agency? geez, did the world even need the ad agencies it already had? no to both questions. but we felt we had something better to offer. ain't capitalism grand?

#2 mind: roy, you're a sage. when someone hangs out a framebuilding shingle, who says -- besides the shingle hanger -- that he can build a frame worth its cost? the first few customers serve as lab rats. pity the poor lab rats. should there perhaps be some sort of accredidation process, some proof of competency? by the time you're e-richie, you're competent (slow, but competent.) but those first few months/years/customers, should a builder need more than a website?

so, kids, is roy an *ss or a sage?

[e-RICHIE]

i hate multiple choice...

[Roy E. Munson]

Without mentioning the builder, I recall one who came up with an ultra-light variation of his tried and true frames. It was new and expensive, so people jumped all over it, until they started to come apart like my insides after a night on the Sam Adam's. Great, the bugs got worked out, but it must have sucked to have been one of the original buyers of this wonderful machine.

[e-RICHIE]

U R A Sage!!!

[bcm119]

I'm guessing Roy is making a statement less about the actual builders and more about the rampant misunderstanding on the consumer's part that smaller is necessarily better. That bugs me too... as does the attitude that Italian bikes are necessarily better..as does the attitude that imported beer is necessarily better. Hell, smaller isn't always better with beer too... look at Sierra Nevada...more consistent and higher quality product than 90% of microbreweries out there.

Maybe I'm way off on Roy, but thats how I read it, and to that end I agree with him.

[Roy E. Munson]

bcm119 - damn, you're good!!!
A note: I drink Budweiser and Miller!

And why is everyone referring to me as a leafy spice?

[Roy E. Munson]

Oh yeah, and to answer someone else's post:

Seven
IF
Hot Tubes
Parlee
Peter Mooney
Jim Lahey
Richard Sachs if you wanna drive a bit for a frame and Twizzlers
Tom Stevens

[dgauthier]

Oh yeah, and to answer someone else's post:

Seven
IF
Hot Tubes
Parlee
Peter Mooney
Jim Lahey
Richard Sachs if you wanna drive a bit for a frame and Twizzlers
Tom Stevens

I wanna live where you live!

:beer:

[Roy E. Munson]

Sorry, no more room in the cardboard box for you now that the missus is moved in!

[Big Dan]

Come on people...Am I the only one heartbroken by the demise of the 8 track???............ :confused:


:bike:

[mad_mark]

Come on people...Am I the only one heartbroken by the demise of the 8 track???............ :confused:


:bike:


What's an 8 track?

Oh hang on, I think I heard reference to those in an episode of Quantum Leap...something like "Wow look at all those old 8 tracks!!"

Mark.

[SGP]

What's an 8 track?

Oh hang on, I think I heard reference to those in an episode of Quantum Leap...something like "Wow look at all those old 8 tracks!!"

Mark.


one of my co-workers has never seen one, or a record album either!

[coylifut]

Oh yeah, and to answer someone else's post:

Seven
IF
Hot Tubes
Parlee
Peter Mooney
Jim Lahey
Richard Sachs if you wanna drive a bit for a frame and Twizzlers
Tom Stevens


Roy's right. There's far too many. Maybe we should start off-ing a few of em.

[OldDog]

Goggle 'em.

[cpg]

bcm119 - damn, you're good!!!
A note: I drink Budweiser and Miller!

And why is everyone referring to me as a leafy spice?


[insert your most convincing Julia Childs (bless her soul) voice] Technically it's an herb.

Curt

[Serotta PETE]

:D :D That is a true and accurate statement, however, the market is made up of people on both sides making choices. How they make those choices is sometimes that problem.

oh, and can you cut my lawn? :p


I will cut your yard for 3 bottles on good red!!!!! Your yard is very big, so I need something to drink as I cut. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Bill Bove]

Tom Stevens is building frames now? Cool. Is he still hanging around with Kathi Riggert?

What happened to Ted Wojick and J.P. Weigle? I think there may have been a couple more too that I can't remember right now, I moved to Florida 10 years ago. How do put up with all that freaking snow.

[e-RICHIE]

tom married kathi years ago.
they moved about 6 miles from here
last summer.

[csb]

roy's place...
cafe sage, john st., nyc

[jerk]

too many small builders? too many big builders?

no, there are too many people building bicycles who have absolutely no idea how to design a properly handling bicycle. this is rampant throughout the bicycle industry and ranges from product managers at the largest bike companies in the world all the way down to the moron who is over heating tubes in his basement....the jerk doesn't care one way or the other how many people are making frames. the jerk does care that the majority of people building "racing" bicycles today have less clue about proper bicycle design than the jerk does. maybe the jerk is wrong, but if you've never raced a bike in your life, never cornerned hard in the rain in the middle of a tight pack, never pushed through a bunch and felt both sides of you come into contact with other riders at the same time, how can you design a bicycle? can't you just rip off someone's geometry that works? because yours doesn't..
it's horrible that no one cares that forks only come in two rakes, that trail and front center are deemed as irrelevent measurements while top tube slope and head tube length are thought of as vital.......make a bike that balances properly..have it show enough seat post and put your fat *** in the place it ought to be.....
as for the small frame builder....the small frame builder who gets it is fort of a weird thing for the jerk....in europe the small frame builder who gets it becomes successful so he doesn't have to do the shi*t work anymore and he can hire some buffoons to do it for him and he can wear the expensive silk ti and drive the big car and count his money.....america is weird and e-richie can talk about this more than the jerk 'cause he's an example of this and admits as much, here we have guys who do get it and do build frames themselves with more attention to detail than a race bike really deserves...but what the hell this is america and you and the jerk deserve it....but the jerk digresses.

no offense, but if the jerk had to choose between small craft builder or evil big bike company...the jerk would choose the guy who designs better bikes....or the one who was giving the jerk the free one.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

Jerk-issimo writes (snipped):
"but if you've never raced a bike in your life, never cornerned hard in the rain in the middle of a tight pack, never pushed through a bunch and felt both sides of you come into contact with other riders at the same time, how can you design a bicycle?"



amen, bro'.

[vandeda]

That is a true and accurate statement, however, the market is made up of people on both sides making choices. How they make those choices is sometimes that problem.

oh, and can you cut my lawn? :p

I'll cut your lawn flydhest ...

Seriously though .... there is a benefit to a lot of small builders, there's a greater chance that one will be in your backyard. That gives you a chance to see their work firsthand, talk with them, and get a real good feel for them. If they're good .... then give them your business ... if they aren't any good, then then don't give them your business. For those of us in the upstate NY area, we have the advantage of having the Serotta factory right around the corner, that's a fantastic advantage. That's one way to look at it. And hopefully, the good will survive, while the bad will just die (or learn to be good).

Dan

[mad_mark]

Jerk-issimo writes (snipped):
"but if you've never raced a bike in your life, never cornerned hard in the rain in the middle of a tight pack, never pushed through a bunch and felt both sides of you come into contact with other riders at the same time, how can you design a bicycle?"



amen, bro'.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes! :banana:

Does that mean I can design a bicycle? ;)

Mark.

[bags27]

Terry mentions Circle A in Rhode Island. Right. I happened upon his shop, and met a guy who was looking to improve his cycling (had an old Cannondale), so I sent him to Chris. Chris makes beautiful bikes (about 1/3 fixies; about 1/3 brevets, and about 1/3 racing bikes); just another example of the kind of cottage industry guy out there.

The main point, however, I think is this: people still want steel!!! A lot of people don't want off-the-rack and/or mixed composits with all the wiz-bang promises that this year's model offers exciting improvements over last year's. I keep saying that one of the great things about custom is getting to know the builder. The focus in that relationship--no matter how fleeting--is not on technology but on craftsmanship.

It's a bike: we pedal it. It won't go (unless it's on top of a hill) without our effort. It's nice to know that we're pushing something that someone else personally put an effort into too.

Let a thousand flowers bloom. Let a thousand builders carve their lugs.

[David Kirk]

So...........in the early 1900's there were over 1200 framebuilders in the New York metro area.......1200. I think there are fewer now.

Mr. Jerk.........I don't always agree with you but you rang my bell with your last post. I was looking at the Opera geometry spread sheet the other day that came in the latest velonews.......every bike from the 47 to the 63, regardless of head angle, had the same fork rake. I'll be they have it all worked out though.

Many years ago Haro had an advertisment that bragged that they had "discovered" the optimum head tube length for their mountain bikes. Every bike, regardless of frame size had the same 4.5" head tube..........I wonder if they did that so that they could make one for for their entire product line.............nahhhh! that would be silly.

I need some more ice cream.

Dave

[Kirk Pacenti]

.

[William]

Terry mentions Circle A in Rhode Island. Right. I happened upon his shop, and met a guy who was looking to improve his cycling (had an old Cannondale), so I sent him to Chris. Chris makes beautiful bikes (about 1/3 fixies; about 1/3 brevets, and about 1/3 racing bikes); just another example of the kind of cottage industry guy out there.

Just a quick yip. I have also been to Chris's shop a number of times. I'll echo Terry and bags, he makes very nice frames. He's also easy to talk to and nice as heck to boot. I'd consider letting him build a frame for me.

Every bike, regardless of frame size had the same 4.5" head tube..........I wonder if they did that so that they could make one for for their entire product line.............nahhhh! that would be silly.

I need some more ice cream.

Production basics: keep costs down and profits up by using parts that can be utilized across your entire production line. In high end lighting you see a lot of that (well, you do if you've been on the inside). Very expensive crystal chandeliers, even though they look very different across the model line, you'd be surprised at how many of the same parts are used in their production. Different finishes, polishing vs matte, Utilizing different crystal sizes, shapes, colors and placement along the same arms yield different looks and saves on costs. I'm not surprised at all that bike companies would attempt the same thing.

William

[Michael Katz]

With small builders, it is not as clear, design philosophy and experience play a huge part. But they too are constrained by outside factors, available fork rakes, stems, bars, etc. ( Unless of course they build their own forks!...right, e-R !) ;) I mean, Serotta builds great race bikes, and they are VERY, VERY different than Spectrums, which are also great race bikes....but no one here would call their designs into question.

KP
Kirk - I would be interested in hearing what you view as the design differences between Serotta and Spectrum. I own both, my articulated objectives when ordering each were the same and I ended up with 2 very different bikes. Any thoughts on what each does differently and why?

[e-RICHIE]

i've re-read jerk-issimo's text over a few times and i
think this is the core thought: having a small production
or co-opting "hand-craftsmanship" (these) do not guaranty
that the bicycle will be well designed. all too often, folks
assume that big-bike inc. is baaaad and that corner-builder
is goooood, simply by dint of "smallness". the press is partly
to blame for this. framebuilding seems like the romantic
little corner of the industry where one goes to purchase
that "ultimate", compromise-free bicycle, usually after having
had a few experiences down at the bike mall.

since this thread is spinning off of the "list" published by
vn, i'm assuming that folks look at these guys as possible
creators of that "next fine frame...".

while it is possible to do great work without the constraints
of the time clock, sometimes the learning curve is stymied*
by the low production and the inability to get the proper feedback
needed in order to raise the bar.

regardless of size, i do think that the sport, or an alliance with it,
helps speed things up so that the best designs can be chosen.
newbie builders often focus on craftsmanship because the frame
and all the parts are right there on the benchtop. in the short
run, it is easier to see results. but on the open road, clean lug
edges and dust-free paint jobs only go so far; racing improves
the breed (thanks, enzo).

e-RICHIE

*i just wanted to use "stymied" in a sentence.

ps

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:D :D :D
:) :) :)

arrange disorder

[Kirk Pacenti]

.

[sspielman]

Another way to use "Stymie" in a sentence: (in commenting on eating an artichoke.....) "It might have choked Artie, but it ain't gonna choke Stymie!"

[William]

"
Another way to us "Stymie" in a sentence: (in commenting on eating an artichoke.....) "It might have choked Artie, but it ain't gonna choke Stymie!

You little rascal!


William ;)

[bags27]

For Michael Katz,

I know this puts us off topic somewhat, but you asked Kirk what he perceived the differences to be between a Spectrum and a Serotta. Since you own both, what do you think those differences are? Just curious, since I don't recall you posting your final thoughts on your Ottrot.

[bostondrunk]

Oh yeah, and to answer someone else's post:

Seven
IF
Hot Tubes
Parlee
Peter Mooney
Jim Lahey
Richard Sachs if you wanna drive a bit for a frame and Twizzlers
Tom Stevens

All good builders. Lahey's lugs are amazing, and I've always wanted to do the Hot Tubes 'build your own frame' thingy!

I just saw a pic of E-ritchies red steel record equipped bike in a popular health/fitness magazine. But dang, they had the thing priced at 9k! Thats a lot of twizzlers.. ;)

[Climb01742]

i'm still left with the nagging question, how is a rider to know if a new builder is any good without going through the lab rat phase? if a chef opens a new restuarant, the price of finding out whether he/she can actually cook is a few bucks and maybe an upset stomach. with a frame it's considerably higher.

[bostondrunk]

I think a huge downfall of custom bikes, especially from small builders, is the often horrible resale value. Fact is, very few of us keep bikes really long term. Plenty of examples on this board of people selling their 'dream' bike after owning it for less than a year or two. Kinda sucks to pay 2500 for a steel frame and then find out you can only sell it for less than half that after it has 'left the lot'.
Yes Shino, I realize you keep your bikes forever... :D
And Willy, where are my milk bones? Soiled bibs are in the mail...

[shaq-d]

A note: I drink Budweiser and Miller!


ouch. here smaller IS better.

i recommend my latest "find" (and known to many others of course), st. ambroise's oatmeal stout. (made in canada!)

maybe the best really-dark beer i've had, and a nice change from guinness.

sd

[e-RICHIE]

i'm still left with the nagging question, how is a rider to know if a new builder is any good without going through the lab rat phase? if a chef opens a new restuarant, the price of finding out whether he/she can actually cook is a few bucks and maybe an upset stomach. with a frame it's considerably higher.



Climb-o
this seems like a no brainer to me-
but i'm not sure why.
e-RICHIIE

[shaq-d]

Come on people...Am I the only one heartbroken by the demise of the 8 track???............ :confused:


:bike:

wow, i have so many bike-irrelevant things to say today.

on this forum: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/i/0

they intermittently routinely talk about the digital vs. tape and the old fogies always harken back to the 8-track days and talk about the beatles...

sd

[Roy E. Munson]

Don't get me started on Guiness drinkers

[shaq-d]

Jerk-issimo writes (snipped):
"but if you've never raced a bike in your life, never cornerned hard in the rain in the middle of a tight pack, never pushed through a bunch and felt both sides of you come into contact with other riders at the same time, how can you design a bicycle?"
amen, bro'.

the guys who design F1 cars aren't F1 racers.

though the building of F1-cars is a collaboration... there's a difference between engineering/design/practice. it doesn't follow you NEED to SUCCEED in one to succeed in the other. you might need to know and experience it a bit, that is, be an _enthusiast_. true of many industries. unless u're saying the trek/giant/etc guys aren't enthusiasts either...

as for the moaning about only 2 fork rakes.. are you getting pissed at the economics/capitalism or at small/big builders...hmmmmmmmm.

sd

*edited for goodness

[bostondrunk]

Did E-ritchie, Sacha Vanilla Fudge, Crumpton, Craig Calfee, Tom Kellog, etc. all race at a professional level? I didn't think so, but I may be wrong...

I'd hate to have Matt Decanio (sp?) design a bike for me........hahaha

[e-RICHIE]

Shaq-d wrote:
"the guys who design F1 cars aren't F1 racers."


but there is a collaboration.
that is the point.

[Russell]

Good points Fly.....How about what happened to the trusty old 8 Track?.. :D

The 8-track deserved to die. I still have a box full of them. Anyone want the first 5 New Riders of the Purple Sage lps on 8-track?

[coylifut]

Did E-ritchie, Sacha Vanilla Fudge, Crumpton, Craig Calfee, Tom Kellog, etc. all race at a professional level? I didn't think so, but I may be wrong...

I'd hate to have Matt Decanio (sp?) design a bike for me........hahaha

Sacha (vanilla fudge) White is perfectly qualified to build a single speed cross bike. Especially if you plan to ride it naked.

[shaq-d]

Shaq-d wrote:
"the guys who design F1 cars aren't F1 racers."


but there is a collaboration.
that is the point.

so if we follow the reasoning, new small frame builders don't "collaborate"? or big frame builders? the issue being that certain builders do not have the knowledge needed... it seems to me almost all frame builders collaborate/have an enthusiast's interest, and can build knowledge with time... and big frame builders certainly do (at least with singular bikes/people like lance and trek)... of course i know nothing about the industry tho so am wondering what the reality is..

sd

[bostondrunk]

more importantly, what happend to 93Legedti? Did he get banned over the annual tubular/clincher thread? :bike:

[flydhest]

Jerk,

I understand your point, and to a large extent, I agree. Someone who designs bikes should actually RIDE bikes. However, I don't see racing experience as the standard by which designers or builders should be judged, (even for racing bikes). By this line of reasoning, (insert favorite professional bike racers name here) should be one of the best bicycle designers in the world. I think a much bigger problem is that far too many people are on bikes designed by racers (or at least intended for racers) who have never, and will never race.


While I think your sentiment was right, the logic doesn't follow, Kirk. I think the Jerk was not saying that everyone who races can design bikes. It was more that someone who doesn't race can't design a racing bike. The two are not equivalent statements.

Nevertheless, I think you're absolutely right, too many people ride the wrong bike. They don't know any better. Please school them.

Just played with a bike made by John Hollands with some of your lugs. Yum.

[e-RICHIE]

shaq-d axed:
"so if we follow the reasoning, new small frame builders don't "collaborate"?"


we're not talkin' about small builders...
the issue is NEW builders!

[shaq-d]

shaq-d axed:
"so if we follow the reasoning, new small frame builders don't "collaborate"?"


we're not talkin' about small builders...
the issue is NEW builders!

but that's what i said.. "new" small frame builders.

sd

[Russell]

i'm still left with the nagging question, how is a rider to know if a new builder is any good without going through the lab rat phase? if a chef opens a new restuarant, the price of finding out whether he/she can actually cook is a few bucks and maybe an upset stomach. with a frame it's considerably higher.

Is this really a problem? I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have enough disposable income to buy something sight unseen. Still, sites like this provide a lot of first hand knowledge on small, lesser-known builders.

[Too Tall]

Don't ask me why I tell these things but y'all got me thinking about lifestyle decisions and why artisans do what they do.

I've had two really poor custom bike frames. A custom Hetchins that I got as a broke High School student from an aging cross eyed British man...bless his heart. The second was my fault, I was (again) broke and my RR bike was crashed and desperate for something I could ride / race found a guy who had just started out in the business...it is junk...but what's a po boy to do?

That was than and this is now. Back than I knew nada and was not hooked up with so many excellent resources , yeah team, to know who had the reputation for trustworthy design and integrity. It don't hurt that I graduated from HS, got out of the coal mines of Wyoming and now have the common sense to crack a book and talk to a few people.

My appreciation for the good women and men artisans goes well beyond bikes and embraces a range of folks who apparently do care about more than the almighty $. Doing things well and letting the rest fall in place thru hard work and accomplishment...maybe a little bloggin' ;). Yes! I'll recognize that and choose to support folks LIKE that every friggin time over the big boys and girls IF THEY EXIST!!! But I'm always going to look for the kook who imported a herd of French mtn. goats and produces his own awesome cheese for sale at the local farmer's market. He$$ yes. Joe Young vs C.S. derrrrrr, everytime I can afford it. That's a choice, it's part of what I'm into.

Why? I'll tell you. I totally changed my perspective on personal sense of accomplishment and self worth while I was working at a coal mine. One day I was sitting in the mud using a 2 foot long file to chase mashed threads out of a 50 lbs bolt that is used to secure the base of a huge crane. I had a stack of about 20 of these and was carefully working my way through the pile when this old geezer came by and said "boy, you do nice work" and left. DOH! That made me really feel good about something that I previously thought was garbage work for the lowest of low...how wrong I was. Now I want to recognise that quality in others and MAYBE give the same back in part parcel.

These so called "small builders" may be background noise in the relm of things but I for one am listening very hard for the "quality" and sense of pride coming from the maker. When I understand that we are coming from the same place at least in essence then they have my attention.

Take Don Walker for instance. Get a sense of where this guy is coming from. Think he is in this to get rich?

:Oops, I did it again: Prog: Off: Sleep Function:

[Roy E. Munson]

I'll bet a large piece of scratch that over 1/2 of the people on this forum bought their bikes sight unseen, let alone an actual test ride.

[William]

The 8-track deserved to die. I still have a box full of them. Anyone want the first 5 New Riders of the Purple Sage lps on 8-track?

Naw, I've got the records. Hey, I traded Steve Miller's Greatest hits album for an X-rated for air play, live Jimi Hendrix record pressed on red vinyl on a label I've never heard of. Maybe I can trade that in for some of your 8-tracks?:rolleyes:

A lot of world class boxing coaches were never world class fighters. But, they do have ring experience. It's like a lot of areas of endeavor, some people who were really good at something can't teach it to others. And others who weren't that good, are great teachers. But almost always, they have experience at some level in their chosen focus. I would agree that a person not need to be a great racer to build race bikes, but they should have good experience at some level of racing to understand their focus.

Rambling William

[e-RICHIE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
shaq-d axed:
"so if we follow the reasoning, new small frame builders don't "collaborate"?"


we're not talkin' about small builders...
the issue is NEW builders!



but that's what i said.. "new" small frame builders.



i think the point here (jerk's point...) is that many new and
some small builders do not collaborate - or (my interpretation)
don't appear to "get it" once you look past the craftsmanship
and start analyzing position, design, and construction.
my point is that i agree with his point, if that is his point.

[Kirk Pacenti]

.

[csb]

ah well its nice life has some consistency:

in fly rod design + fabrication most everything
said here holds true, the parts i agree with +
therefor are true, immovable.
the bestess of the big name fly rod companies have some
of the best casters designing their products. you
may buy the factory rod or most of these companies
sell their blanks (tubes sets) that
the basement builder may tape together and
then hang his custom shingle up + wait for
the money to ROLL in.
then there are the cane rod makers that hand-
plane away, warmed by the wood stove, keeping the
connection with skues, ritz, or whomever alive.
while they may make an incredibly beautiful LOOKING
product, most times it casts like a piece dog ****.
and i'd bet my spectrum most of these custom rod makers
could'nt throw a 5 wgt. line 75'.
dont get me wrong, there are wonderful bamboo rods
being made using very intelligent tapers/patterns (tubing, butting,
proportions... the math) fabricating cool ****. there are swelled butts,
hollow butts, hollowed + swelled butts, different glues,
different flex rates, guide placements, swing weights.......blahblah blah

and like this thread, in the fly casing world, they
argue endlessly about big<little, old<new, stiff<soft...

[flydhest]

Kirk,

Yeah, that's the implication. Just to be clear, I'm not saying I agree with him. The point I was making was that saying "if you haven't raced, you can't design a race bike" isn't the same thing as saying "if you have raced, you can design a race bike."

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. I am a square, however.

[csb]

.

[Michael Katz]

I know this puts us off topic somewhat, but you asked Kirk what he perceived the differences to be between a Spectrum and a Serotta. Since you own both, what do you think those differences are? Just curious, since I don't recall you posting your final thoughts on your Ottrot.

If you do a search for my name you will find a thread I started comparing in detail my Spectrum Ti with my Ottrott. After many miles on both, I have concluded that the Spectrum is a better handling bike for my purposes. It is every bit as responsive as the Ottrott, seems to "flow" better through the curves, is more stable on fast descents and does not have the quickness of the Ottrott's front end which can border on "twitchiness" if hitting road imperfections while reaching for a water bottle. The Ottrott has a somewhat more comfortable upper body position, is smoother and soaks up vibration better and makes for a more comfortable century bike. Both of them are superb and give me more performance than I will ever use. On any given ride I could ride either and be absolutely delighted. As my previous thread indicates, however, I think each has its own distinctive design signature.

[flydhest]

my long winded analogy agrees with fly

alas, I can only cast aspersions.

[csb]

barbless

[weisan]

.

[bags27]

Thanks, Michael. You're right, of course: I do remember that report. Maybe with dbrk on vacation I was just trying to start another Ottrott war :)

[cpg]

i'm still left with the nagging question, how is a rider to know if a new builder is any good without going through the lab rat phase? if a chef opens a new restuarant, the price of finding out whether he/she can actually cook is a few bucks and maybe an upset stomach. with a frame it's considerably higher.

1. Find out how many frames they've built.
2. Ask opinions of people that you respect and are in the know about the prospective builder.
3. Find out what varied experiences in building the prospective builder has.


Curt

[RichMc]

[QUOTE=William]Naw, I've got the records. Hey, I traded Steve Miller's Greatest hits album for an X-rated for air play, live Jimi Hendrix record pressed on red vinyl on a label I've never heard of. Maybe I can trade that in for some of your 8-tracks?:rolleyes:

Hey William,

Are you still up for parting with that Hendrix album. I have a bunch of good cassettes around. Sorry, no 8 tracks. ;)

[William]

Hi folks,

I've been getting a number of pm's & inquires on the Hendrix album. I was just kidding when suggested trading for 8-tracks. That's why I also used the sarcastic rolling eyes emocon. I'm not looking to part with that album right now. Someone would have to offer me a pretty sweet deal to get me to let that go.
Sorry for any confusion. :)

William

[Sandy]

Will an autographed photo of me and Kevan on a tandem do the trick?? :)


Sandy

[William]

Will an autographed photo of me and Kevan on a tandem do the trick??

SOLD!!!


William :rolleyes:

[Ti Designs]

If they come back to the builder for a second bike, it's the bike doing the selling. If they test ride the bike first, it's the bike doing the selling. Just about anything else is all marketing, and it leaves many people with very expensive failed experiments. Let me throw a few examples of marketing at y'all:

Any Trek owned company - Fisher, Lemond, Klein, Bontrager... All names which imply something. They only thing they imply to me is that those people are getting paid for their reputation alone. Does Greg's name on a road bike imply anything? He won the tour 3 times, so he must know how to design a racing bike, right? Well at least he won the tour 3 times...

"a one man shop dedicated to the highest standards". Yeh, that frame will be $8000 please... Let's face it, the little shop can't afford the same equipment that the big boys play with. If you're looking for something unique, hand built is the only way to go. If you're looking for high quality at a reasonable price and wait, I don't think so.

Pick up ANY custom frame catalog and read about how they work with the customer and fitter to produce a bike that handles EXACTLY they way they want it to. Can someone please tell me EXACTLY what the head tube angle and fork rake should be to make a 57cm bike "kinda quick" but the standards of a 57 year old lawyer. It's pure bull - er, I mean marketing!

As for the Jerk's idea that they need to have raced a bike to design or build a bike, I think it's only part of a much bigger picture. Designing a bike takes an understanding of a lot of things, many of which are transparent to the rider. The bike racer understands how the bike handles, but too often can't put that into a working geometry, or can't translate that to other sizes. Understanding how the bike goes together is another story and isn't anything you learn while racing a bike. Stiffness and ride are subjective, there are no standards so each builder has their own point of view, often reflecting what they like to ride.

In the end I think there needs to be some kind of standard. That's why I have such a hard time designing a custom bike for someone who hasn't spent some real time in the saddle. If they say I ride a ______ and I like it because it does this, but I don't like it because it does this, we have a point of refrence. If they ride three bikes and say I like this one for this, that one for that and the other one for the color, I can start designing a bike for them. On the other hand, if they find a custom builder on the inetnet and tell them they want a bike that rides nice...

And finally, a good stab at the internet as a source of good info - it's not (take this post for example). Before Al Gore (what does he have to do with anything?) people could publish their thoughts and opinions, it would just cost them more. The cost of publishing implied that there was some fact behind the print (with the exception of weather forcasts and a few sports writers). With the internet came mindless chatter which drowns out any real info to the point where it's all noise. Hop over to road bike review for a second, click on any item and read the reviews. There are good ones, bad ones, clowing ones and damning ones - which one do you trust?

[Kirk Pacenti]

.

[flydhest]

Ti designs,

You got many of what I was trying to convey with the "market forces won't solve everything" spiel.

I am, however, a bit concerned to read that you imply that I can't trust everything I read on the internet. Isn't that what it's there for?

There's a saying, if you can tell the difference between good advice and bad advice, you probably don't need advice.

[Tom Kellogg]

This has been fun reading. It seems to me that for the most part, we all agree on most if the issues expressed, but because we all like to express our thoughts and some of us (take me for example) aren't so good at expressing them, it sometimes seems that we are arguing...

Does racing help me design frames? Yes, but I am not sure that it is terribly critical any more. I learned a lot about what makes frames work from racing. In fact I learned more about frame design from my years of racing on the velo than I did from even more years on the road. But I think that Richie would agree that even though he still races, he does not do so to learn more about frame design. He got through the learning curve long ago. Even though you won't see Richie in a pack sprint (he is either off the front or he has backed out by the sprint) he sure is qualified to build a frame for a pack sprinter. He and I (and lots of other builders) have used our racing to help us figure out the complex dynamics of how the various aspects of geometry, materials, weight distribution, power characteristics, road or track conditions ... effect what a bike does under the all the conditions that we ride under. As it turns out, what I learned on the track actually has helped me understand why (for example) a touring tandem's front end geometry must be designed differently from geometry for that same customer's single. When I was starting out, I would have guessed that at least the trail numbers should be the same. No, no.

The Jerk is right that racing does teach the builder a lot, but I don't think that it is critical. Racing just makes the journey quicker. As I have told many folks over the years, any idiot who builds full time for thirty years will eventually get the hold of it.

As Too Tall noted, we surely don't do it to get rich. Both of us have wonderful lives, we love what we do. But if we wanted just to get rich, we would have sold our businesses to one of the big boys. Just imagine a Richard Sachs coming out of Wisconsin ... now you know why Richie is still at it.

Thanks for reading and have a nice weekend.

[vaxn8r]

Thanks to all the "insiders" for their thoughtful analyses. Now, I'd like to hear from Serotta James, or even Ben. I find it ironic that it's their forum and we rarely hear from them , especially on a topic like this.

[William]

Now, I'd like to hear from Serotta James, or even Ben. I find it ironic that it's their forum and we rarely hear from them , especially on a topic like this.

Good point, and one I've wondered about in the past. I like the fact that they don't really censor discussion on other brands/builders and dissention on Serotta frames (to a point). But it would be nice to get a little more feedback from the Serotta pros.

William

[Too Tall]

Ben chime in???? Careful what you wish for (wink wink).

100 posts and darn near 3k views :cool:

[madbiker]

This has been fun reading. It seems to me that for the most part, we all agree on most if the issues expressed, but because we all like to express our thoughts and some of us (take me for example) aren't so good at expressing them, it sometimes seems that we are arguing...

Does racing help me design frames? Yes, but I am not sure that it is terribly critical any more. I learned a lot about what makes frames work from racing. In fact I learned more about frame design from my years of racing on the velo than I did from even more years on the road. But I think that Richie would agree that even though he still races, he does not do so to learn more about frame design. He got through the learning curve long ago. Even though you won't see Richie in a pack sprint (he is either off the front or he has backed out by the sprint) he sure is qualified to build a frame for a pack sprinter. He and I (and lots of other builders) have used our racing to help us figure out the complex dynamics of how the various aspects of geometry, materials, weight distribution, power characteristics, road or track conditions ... effect what a bike does under the all the conditions that we ride under. As it turns out, what I learned on the track actually has helped me understand why (for example) a touring tandem's front end geometry must be designed differently from geometry for that same customer's single. When I was starting out, I would have guessed that at least the trail numbers should be the same. No, no.

The Jerk is right that racing does teach the builder a lot, but I don't think that it is critical. Racing just makes the journey quicker. As I have told many folks over the years, any idiot who builds full time for thirty years will eventually get the hold of it.

As Too Tall noted, we surely don't do it to get rich. Both of us have wonderful lives, we love what we do. But if we wanted just to get rich, we would have sold our businesses to one of the big boys. Just imagine a Richard Sachs coming out of Wisconsin ... now you know why Richie is still at it.

Thanks for reading and have a nice weekend.

Tom has no idea who I am..:)....but I have spoken to him a couple of times on the phone, and he is one of the nicest guys in the industry I have had the pleasure of talking to. Oh, and he seems to know his ****!:)

[flydhest]

Tom does know who I am, and I'll second the notion that he's one of the nicest guys, not just in the industry, but anywhere. Makes a heck of a ginger cookie, too.

[weisan]

As I have told many folks over the years, any idiot who builds full time for thirty years will eventually get the hold of it.

This is a defining moment of our lives. Nobody in this world has a birthright to knowledge and experience. It has to be earned. And there are many ways to earn it. The person who truly earned it somewhere along the way has already been humbled by what he had learned that he no longer brags about it because he knows it's nothing to brag about.

Climbo, a** or SAGE, you ask? Here's your example of a sage.

[Roy E. Munson]

Who is the genius that came up with this brilliant thread? I bet he's extremely smart, talented, and stunningly handsome.

[csb]

so lets see, we now know the catalyst is:

short

dent in forhead from lightpost meeting

frozen 1/2 tongue still stuck on signpost

rides toe-clips (apologies dbrk)

oh and dont forget the bacon

[Climb01742]

Who is the genius that came up with this brilliant thread? I bet he's extremely smart, talented, and stunningly handsome.

yea, but can he ride? :rolleyes:

[weisan]

Ben chime in???? Careful what you wish for (wink wink).

100 posts and darn near 3k views :cool:

I don't think so, Tall-pal. Ben's a SAGE too. :D

[Sandy]

The ginger snap cookies were excellent. I don't think we really know who made them. Rumors are that they were produced in Saratoga Springs.

Saratoga Springs Sandy

[Michael Katz]

Tom is not only an extremely personable, nice guy but he also has an almost mystical zen like approach and expertise. The fit and design he did for me resulted in just an incredibly well balanced, responsive bike. What I find fascinating is that no fancy tools or plug in the body measurement computer programs were used. Just eyeballing me on a current bike (whose geometry was all wrong and hardly an example of the right design to use as a template) and a couple of measurements of that bike. No, wait, there was one piece of exotic fit equipment used - the half round file Tom inserted under the palm of my hands while I was on the hoods.

[csb]

the secret ingredient is cooking
them with the torch from the barn

michael, dont forget the bead chain

[weisan]

go easy people, I have a naggin' suspicion that Tom is an extremely shy person. ;)

[bags27]

Tom's not shy at all. Modest, yes, but he'll hang and chat in those precious few moments when he's not building himself or doing stuff for Merlin.

[csb]

there's also:

net zilch

[Serotta PETE]

Who is the genius that came up with this brilliant thread? I bet he's extremely smart, talented, and stunningly handsome.

WAS IT SANDY!!!!!!!! :banana: :banana: :banana: