Climbing wheels

[rideon]

What's the best wheels to do long mountain climbs? I own a 5-6 year old pair of Ksyriums which have been bullet proof for me. I also have a pair of Zipp 404's that I bought for TTing. I usually only use the Zipps for racing. I like them both but I like to get some opinions on what's out there in the market these days.

[Kevin]

I have a few suggestions in the clincher category: Topolinos, Speed Dreams and Campy Nucleons. All of these wheels are pretty light, but the Topolinos are the lighteset (1380 grams). The Topolinos are alos the most comfortable on long rides (carbon and kevlar spokes). The Speed Dreams are the fastest on the open road, they are also about $200 cheaper than the Topolinos. I know that many people on this forum disagree with me, but I thought the Ksyrium SSLs were a notch below these wheels. Mine are now on the trainer.

Kevin

[weisan]

When I bought a used 2000 Serotta Legend last year, it came with a pair of Mavic Helium wheels on it. As it rides on tubulars, I didn't want to use them at first because of the extra fuss of glueing and roadside fix. And so I rode instead on the heavier Crane Creek Chrono Aerohead used as training wheels.
Every time when I go out and ride, I can't help but notice the heliums sitting in one corner, wasting away. And so, one day I couldn't resist anymore, picked it up, put it on and took it outside on my normal route. Wow! It was a blast! Up until that day, I didn't know I can climb at all !!! :D Although I have read in some reviews that the Heliums are not particularly strong for heavier riders. I weigh between 140~145 Ibs and they do alright.

Man, this is a good pair of climbing wheels. I still hates the glueing and had two flats since started using them last October. Really, people who used tubulars would tell me that I should be re-stitching and repairing my tubulars instead of throwing them away every time I got a flat. Too expensive. But the guy who sold me the bike also generously donated 6 extra sets of spare high-quality tubulars (Continental Triathlons). And so, I couldn't be bothered to repair them but I should especially when they cost $30 each. Maybe one of these days, when I run out of those spares completely.

I read in the bicycle maintenance book by Bicycling Magazine on the section about repairing tubulars. It seems pretty elaborate work, though not super complicated but still it takes special skills.
I would like to try some day. Mr. Jerk, I remember you saying you would never ride on anything except tubulars, is that a correct statement? Maybe you can teach me one of your tricks about taking care and fixing tubulars. I would sure appreciate it. I love the heliums enough to justify continue riding them and doing the extra tubular-specific work.

A friend of mine has a pair of Ksyrium SSLs and Zipp 404. He has agreed to let me try them out on one of my rides to compare the difference. Will report back once I got the chance to do so.

weisan

[BigMac]

The best climbing wheels are the ones on the bike of the strongest climber, period!

I'm honestly not trying to rain on your parade, but seriously, the lightest, fastest wheels will not turn a schmuck into Lance Armstrong. A good, sound and reliable hand-built wheelset or a defacto quality prebuilt such as Campy Nucleon or Bontrager Race X-lite sewups will perform equal in most instances to the fanciest cf offerings from Lightweight, ADA, Campy, Reynolds, etc. An aero wheel will have greater speed impact over a long TT or tri course but even that will be 30 seconds on average, perhaps a minute on longer courses. In mountains, the lightweight wheels will feel quicker accelerating forward but honestly the net result may be 10 seconds on a very long course with lots of swicthbacks. You're far better off spending your time in weight room gaining strength and money on a coach or training device to improve your pedalling technique.

Your money to spend as you wish, hope you're not too dissapointed when the latest, lightest "climbing wheels" still leave you dropping off the back of the pack.

Ride on!

[oracle]

Your money to spend as you wish, hope you're not too dissapointed when the latest, lightest "climbing wheels" still leave you dropping off the back of the pack.

BM: i'm not sure why you are assuming that he is falling off the back, or wants to be lance armstrong - seems to me like he just wants a better pair of wheels for climbing.

anyway, my experiences with 'climbing' wheels has led me to vastly different conclusions than BM, save for his opening sentence.

be that as it may, a 200lb.'er is in general not going to be able to appreciate the differences in wheels that vary greatly in mass when the pitches get steep, and you need to crane your neck skyward to see what is around the next switchback. gravity is most cruel to the clydesdales in these instances.

a difference in wheel mass of around 300g should be noticable if the mass is mainly rim mass. at around 1000g, it sould feel like you are riding a different bike.

for example, when i switched from my winter training wheels (cxp33, 36h) to a wheelset that weighs ca. 1000g less, i was climbing one particular pitch in my 19, instead of my 21 or sometimes 23.

as per my favorite, after having my carbon wheels stolen, i have been using my fiamme ergals 32/32 dura ace and all revo spokes, and i think that they ride better than just about anything out there.

and remember last years GDI, per BM's initial point, that yaroslav popovych ouclassed nearly everyone in the big mountains of italy with his trad spoked, crono f20s and record hubs.


:beer: :beer:
oracle:banana: :banana:

[Marco]

Amen Brother Mac!! Now back to the squats and lunges..

[weisan]

I agree wholeheartedly with BigMac's assessment and I think most people realize that. I am sure this thread predicates on that basis too. It's like choosing a bike or any particular component.
Some are of better quality and reliability or had certain unique attributes.

They are not going to make you a champion rider but it does make a difference especially the higher the level of competition. When the stakes are high, anything helps. And there's no denial of the fact that for some, part of the fun of riding a bike is that we can drool over the nice paintwork, marvel at the shinnies that adorn the frame. When everything hums together, it's the most incredible piece of human machine ever invented!

[jeffg]

Well, BigMac is right, of course. It does make sense, however, to think about a few other things as well. I would consider Campy Eurus or handbuilts even though they do not offer the lightest (rotational) weight.

Feel/comfort: This seems best on handbuilts or Campy wheels (I like the Eurus, but Neutrons are a bit smoother yet). I personally love the G3 spoking pattern (very solid) so I prefer the the Eurus to even the handbuilts (smooth, fast, less maintenance so far).

Durability: Again, handbuilts win here. The only issue is that you need a reputable builder. Most such folks only really work on their own wheels, so if you move a bit (as i do), it's actually easier to get people to work on solid pre-builts like Campy, Mavic, etc.

Descending: How confident are you heading back down a twisty descent on those wheels? Mavic K's, Eurus, handbuilts have all been great (though Eurus win again).

All in all, I would choose either handbuilts (if you want trick get White Industries hubs and Sapim Cx-Ray spokes) or Campy Neutron/Eurus. If Campy made a G3 Neutron I would jump at those, although recent price increases make handbuilts ever more attractive.

best,

Jeff

[vaxn8r]

Anybody try Rolf Elan's or Vigors?

The Elans are a lower profile rim with a combined wheel weight of 1270g. The Vigors are an aero rim at 1425g. Neither one has a gram of CF. Both are clincher rims.

I was toying with getting a set. My lbs can get me about 20-25% off.

[Ken Lehner]

Originally posted by oracle
a difference in wheel mass of around 300g should be noticable if the mass is mainly rim mass. at around 1000g, it sould feel like you are riding a different bike.

for example, when i switched from my winter training wheels (cxp33, 36h) to a wheelset that weighs ca. 1000g less, i was climbing one particular pitch in my 19, instead of my 21 or sometimes 23.


Just for grins, I went to analyticcycling.com, and put in the numbers for a famous SF area climb, Old La Honda Road. It's a steady 7%, about 3.5 miles long. For a 90kg rider/bike holding 250W (a reasonable power), losing 1000g will save you approximately 8 seconds over the course of the ride, putting you about 30m ahead at the end. That's about 1/2 of 1%. Still think it makes a difference?

[slowgoing]

If you're doing a hilly century or double (10,000 + feet), nice climbing wheels may save you a noticeable amount of energy by the end of the ride. It's not just a matter of going faster, but also going the same speed or distance with less energy. I'm all for avoiding the bonk.

[oracle]

dear ken,

i absolutely think that it makes a difference. keeping in mind that i rarely ever used those wheels except to race, a 30m gap is rather huge, considering that a 3.5 mile climb is more of a molehill than a mountain. plug your #'s in for a 15-20 mile climb with max grades of 15-17% and i believe that the results will be perhaps more entertaining.


:beer: oracle

[Ken Lehner]

Originally posted by oracle
dear ken,

i absolutely think that it makes a difference. keeping in mind that i rarely ever used those wheels except to race, a 30m gap is rather huge, considering that a 3.5 mile climb is more of a molehill than a mountain. plug your #'s in for a 15-20 mile climb with max grades of 15-17% and i believe that the results will be perhaps more entertaining.


:beer: oracle

(first, find me a 30km+ climb with max grades of 15-17% that isn't significantly less steep the rest of the way. Remember that a 30km climb averaging 10% is a gain of 3000m; besides Haleakala in Hawaii, do you know any 10,000' climbs?)

(Also, recall that 1000g is almost two pounds. My lightweight wheels are under 1400g without tires; I don't think my Open Pro wheels are 2400g.)

Done. Here are some significant climbs from the Grand Tours:

Alpe D'Huez, 15km@7.3%: 21sec, 77m gained
Luz Ardiden (where Armstrong fell), 13.4km@7.6%: 20sec, 69m
Sierra Nevada (Vuelta), 30km@5.7%: 32sec, 143m
La Pandera (Vuelta), 8.3km@6.4% max 15%: 10sec, 41m
Zoncolan (Giro), 13.3km@9%: 23sec, 70m.

If you are contesting for the podium at a Grand Tour, then taking two pounds off your wheels will make a difference. Otherwise, you aren't racing climbs like these, and it doesn't matter.

[vaxn8r]

Very interesting. I think you answered my question beautifully Ken.

Though losing 800g off a set of CXP30's would sure make my Atlanta "feel" better....as well as my check book lighter....ah, what to do?

[don compton]

dear riders,
i have never purchased any really exotic wheelsets. i weigh 175-185 and have really enjoyed open pro rims(28 front 15g,32 rear 14-15g), a fairly light wheelset. in the foothills of northern calif. the great cycling roads are usually small back country roads with a few extra potholes(etc.).from time to time i have to true my open pro wheeelsets. i purchased a nucleon wheelset and have never touched them. i have ridden over the same roads. i really can't notice any performance improvement, but the wheelset is actually much more durable than the open pro wheelset.in addition, these wheels ride great, spoken from a rider with a very sensitive old back.
sincerely,don c.

[slowgoing]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think lighter wheels (or lighter anything else) are actually a bigger benefit to non-racers (or to riders with less power) in terms of actual seconds saved. Instead of running the analyticcycling.com model for a rider averaging 250 watts, do it for a rider averaging 200 or even 150 watts. The time savings, in terms of seconds saved, are actually higher for lower powered riders. It may be that while the lighter weight shaves the same fraction of time for both faster and slower riders (not sure about that though), that results in a higher actual time savings for the slower rider because his total time was higher to begin with.

[Larry]

I received my Speeddream wheelset a short time ago.
Initial impressions
1. Significantly faster than old Ksyrium set. This is really evident even
though I am out of shape.
2. Pedal to the metal....... seems like really efficient energy transfer from
White Industry Hub and Sapim X Ray spokes.
3. I have not done climbing rides yet, but these wheels seem plenty stiff and
I would expect a very efficient and improved climbing speed.
4. They really do spin up quickly when you take off.
5. Ride partner thinks they are faster...... period.
6. Seems like alot of wheel for the money-- $575.00 including shipping.
7. Dave Thomas knows exactly what to build for your specific needs.
8. Excellent service from a real pro...... thank you Dave.

Larry:banana:

[Ken Lehner]

Originally posted by don compton
dear riders,
i have never purchased any really exotic wheelsets. i weigh 175-185 and have really enjoyed open pro rims(28 front 15g,32 rear 14-15g), a fairly light wheelset. in the foothills of northern calif. the great cycling roads are usually small back country roads with a few extra potholes(etc.).from time to time i have to true my open pro wheeelsets. i purchased a nucleon wheelset and have never touched them. i have ridden over the same roads. i really can't notice any performance improvement, but the wheelset is actually much more durable than the open pro wheelset.in addition, these wheels ride great, spoken from a rider with a very sensitive old back.
sincerely,don c.

You should very rarely have to true your wheels. If they have sufficient tension (meaning "a lot"), they should not go out of true. I'm about 175, and I never have to touch my Open Pro wheels.

Ken Lehner

[vaxn8r]

Back in '97 I bought some Record/Open Pro 32's from Excel. They went out of true routinely. One of my worst purchases and why I now only buy from trusty lbs. Both wheels had to be rebuilt within a year. Even then there were some occasional truing issues. I have a 3 year old set of Protons that I have NEVER had to true. I think they are a laterally stiffer wheelset as well even with lower spoke count. That may be due to asymmetric drilling of the rim(?)

[Ken Lehner]

Originally posted by vaxn8r
Back in '97 I bought some Record/Open Pro 32's from Excel. They went out of true routinely. One of my worst purchases and why I now only buy from trusty lbs. Both wheels had to be rebuilt within a year. Even then there were some occasional truing issues. I have a 3 year old set of Protons that I have NEVER had to true. I think they are a laterally stiffer wheelset as well even with lower spoke count. That may be due to asymmetric drilling of the rim(?)

Your Excel wheels were poorly built.

Wheels go out of true (barring physical damage) because of inadequate spoke tension, or a poor build (residual spoke windup). I have Colorado Cyclist Open Pro/Ultegra wheels that are a decade old, and have not required truing. The stronger the rims, the more tension can be put into the spokes, and the less likely they are to become slack. The guideline for spoke tension is to tighten the spokes to the point where the rim tacos, then back off the tension just a bit.

Low spoke count wheels can be made very strong, since each spoke can have a lot of tension put into them before the rim buckles. But when you break a spoke, you probably have an unrideable wheel.

Trivia question: at what point in the life of a bicycle wheel are the spokes at the highest tension (at rest, when ridden, when hitting a pothole, etc.)?

[vaxn8r]

I agree, they were poorly built and I won't buy wheels mail order, ever again because you have no recourse when there are problems aside from paying $25-$50 postage fees and time without a wheel.

I'll only ever buy prebuilts from reputable company (Campy, Shimano/Mavic etc.) or wheels built locally by someone I trust and who will stand behind them.

[flydhest]

Ken,

You missed one important aspect of strong wheels that stay in true, although you may have had it implicitly in your mind. In addition to being sensibly spec'd and tensioned, it should be evenly tensioned. Rims are often not true when new, so some builders (the good and careful ones) pay a lot of attention to evenness of tension and will sometimes have to resort to different spoke lengths to correct this.

Oh, and 1000 grams like you said is almost 2 pounds, but its over 2 pounds. I agree, a huge difference in weight for wheels.

[Wanker]

I too am very impressed with nuecleons. I weigh 165lbs and have put close to 15 thousand miles on these wheels and they are still true! I haven't hit any major bumps, but I have ridden about 50 miles of gravel road with some washboard spots mixed in. -
I've got about four thousand less abusive miles on a set of open pros and they're still true.

wanker:beer:

[rideon]

I was away from the net for a few days and what great commentary insued.

Thanks everyone for the comments, even you Big Mac, although you stated the obvious for most of us, the thread became very interesting because of it.

Certainly, as a Serotta owner (CSI), I'm more inclined to give my self every advantage I can get (within reason). One of the many things that I like about cycling is all the technology involved. I simply pursue the best quality of biking gear that I can afford, as well as pushing my training to the limit of my abilities.

Anybody rode the so-called "frictionless" hub? I think Zipp makes it. Salty I hear.

[gwk]

Did you ever pick up some Rolf Elans or Vigors as you were talking about in a previous post? Just curious what you think of them. George

[shinomaster]

I think Big Mac is assuming a lot. Not everyone is a loser climber an thinks a set of new wheels will turn him into Lance. I do know that when I climb up the same hill on my atlanta with open pro wheels, and then on my cannondale on my Neutron wheels there is a huge difference in effort. I can get to the top with less effort and more quickly on the lighter bike and wheels. A big deal in a race. The cannondale is lighter in case you didn't know. If components didn't make any difference they there wouldn't be such a demand for them, it's not all marketing. After the training all that is left is the fit and the machine.

[Larry]

Go for the Speeddreams by Dave Thomas.

Very reasonably priced.
They will climb like a mountain goat.
They are aero. They are light.
And...... they are fast!

Larry :banana: :banana: :banana: