Please Help..(getting fit tomorrow for a Serotta)

[BURCH]

I posted a question earlier today and received great feedback on Cosmo vs OP w/ultegra or DA.

My next questions since my fitting is tomorrow are these....

1) I was thinking CDA, but the opinions that I have read on this board seem to indicate that the carbon stay doesn't seem to do much over the CIII. Do you guys think that it is worth it just for the added s#x appeal? Or am I off my rocker by saying that and buying a Steal Frame?

2) If I decide to go with OP with DA, should I shop around and tell the bike shop that I will take care of it...or will this cause some tension with the shop? On top of that if I did go somewhere cheaper for the wheels...should the bike shop give me the ~$200 credit for the wheels that come with the Ultegra 10 group?

Thanks again,
BURCH

I just want to get this bike right since it is my first custom bike. Recently got out of College and finally have some money for toys...

[Serotta PETE]

The CDA is a fine riding frame. (as is the Steel rear end of CIII). It is really a presonal choice and there is NO WRONG answer. In my view you will not get on one and say WOW that makes such a difference. Pick the one you like and it will ride great. (Comparing the two is like saying do you like Chocolate or Vanilla). I have ridden both and would take either - no preference from a ride point.

As to wheels. Typically you get your best buy from LBS is you are buying the complete build kit. To determine if you are getting a competitve price - compare it to the price offered in Colorado Cyclist. Most dealers can match this and make a decent profit. Key is to insure the kit you are getting from LBS is same as the makeup of KIT you price in colorado., Even if up to 10% more, I would recommend getting from LBS.

Have fun with the selection and anticipation of waiting for it to arrive.

PETE

[djg]

and I'm pretty sure I don't think it looks cooler, but it's your dime and the preference that matters is yours. Take this advice with a grain of salt, in that, although I have a bike (colnago) with a CF rear triangle (not just seat stays) that I like very much, I've never owned nor even ridden a CDA. My Serotta is a CSi and the couple of Serottas I've ridden have been steel (and not lacking, despite the absence of carbon).

As for the wheels: why go elsewhere? Is the shop asking an especially high price for the wheelset or do you lack faith in their wheelbuilding skills? I would think you could work something out such that the price differential is small--if you can, it seems easier and neater to go with one place. If not, I don't see why they should mind your having a set of wheels from somewhere else anymore than they should mind your using a set of wheels you already own. Most shops are reasonable about such things. Some are prickly. Depends who you're dealing with. As for the rebate: most shops will give you something back for parts you don't need, but how much depends on what's involved and what use they have for it. I wouldn't think that a wheelset is included in the group price, unless they have some sort of build package price. If it's just a set of ultegra hubs, I would expect something back, but not nearly 200 bucks.

[BURCH]

Pete,

Thanks

[BURCH]

djg,

You can tell, I don't have much experience with buying custom bikes (first one). I guess that I just had lack of faith that they would offer a competitive price if I wanted built wheels on the Serotta instead of factory wheels that the dealer is pushing, but it sounds like I shouldn't have this lack of faith.

Thanks.

[Sandy]

Do a search using- Colorado III
Then scroll down to the thread named- Colorado III or Coeur d'Acier
Click onto that thread. It will keep you busy for the night.

I would buy the wheels from your lbs, where you are buying the bike. The more you buy, the better the price should be. They should give you an excellent deal on any wheelset. You would be able to get warranty work and regular service on the entire bike at one location.

Personally, I would get the Colorado III and apply the money to better wheels or whatever you want. Open Pro wheels with Dura-Ace hubs are excellent, as are the Dura-Ace skewers. See what other wheels the lbs has or can get for you.

You don't have to rush on the wheels. Serotta has to build you the frameset before the wheels are needed. If you go through the lbs on the wheels (I would) then be sure that they help you in the price.

You could always save some money and send it to me. :) :)

The CDA and CIII are great bikes. You will love either one. Really!!!

Sandy

[Sandy]

What wheels are they pushing??

Sandy

[BURCH]

The guy is pushing Cosmos pretty hard with the straight spokes. He said that they are very strong. He also claims that OP with lacing while nostalgic and not really used anymore. I am finding out otherwise and since I am a a pedal masher and 200lbs, I think that I need the real strength and ease of fixing that the OP offers.

[jerk]

hey burch-
open pros laced to a shimano hub are not all they're cracked up to be....the rim is heavy, the resulting dish on the rear wheel makes for really uneven spoke tension no matter who builds the wheel and they are more likely to go out of true than alot of the prebuilts which take dish into account through using offset rear rims, special hub flange designs and the like....you're getting a trick bike there's no reason you should get pedestrian wheels. there is one good thing about a handbuilt wheelset using open pro rims...they're cheap and servicable. that being said the offerings from bontrager, mavic, campy, dt swiss, shimano, pmp, etc are just as servicable and lighter, stronger, faster better etc. etc. prebuilts are a result of 9 and 10 speed wheels. you can do better.

jerk

[bcm119]

Have you considered an offset rear rim, such as a DT RR1.1 or a Velocity Aerohead? You can have these built up around a DA hub and it will be lighter than a Cosmos wheelset, and probably stronger too. The Cosmos wheelset is not very light- I think its around 1700 grams. It sounds like your LBS has a pair they want to get rid of.

I would decide on the CDA/cIII dilemma purely by aesthetical preference. I'm sure you already like one better than the other; get what you like and don't worry about what we recommend!

[BURCH]

Jerk,

I had thought about KSYRIUM's, but someone told me that with my riding style (mashing with high torque) and weight (~200) that I would destroy them. Any thoughts on that?

Someone on this forum was talking highly or Protons. I guess that I will have to research those too.

Thanks for the input.

[bulliedawg]

Are you getting fit or having a fit?

[BURCH]

Are you getting fit or having a fit?

how about.....I am having a fit about getting fit?

[rnhood]

I'm 200 and ride the Mavic CXP-33 without any problems. Never had to true them either. Hit pot holes that stopped the bike and flipped me over the handlebars - wheels still perfectly true. My back isn't though.

[TmcDet]

I have an all steel Serotta that rides great, but have also ridden the CDA and thought it was awesome. Don't think you will go wrong with either bike.

The only mistake that I made on my bike were the wheels. I choose the OP and have had trouble with the rear wheel from the get go. It has to be trued about ever 1000 miles. At around 5000 Mavic replaced the rim for me (one of the eyelets came loose), I was hoping that would solve the problem with the wheel but it doesn't seem to have made a difference.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I’ve put over 10k miles on my 2001 model Ksyriums in the past four years and the only maintenance needed was truing the rear wheel--after someone ran into it. I weigh 170. No, they are not the cushiest ride around, but they are stiff and go like stink when I stand on them, which is what I was after.

Also, Sandy has a good point about getting any and all repair and warranty work at the same place if you buy the whole shebang from your LBS.

BBDave

[Sandy]

I don't know too much about wheels, but I would suspect your wheel problem to be the person who trues your wheels and/or the builder of the wheels, if you normally don't have trouble with wheels.

Sandy

[Bruce K]

Burch;

I have a set of Ksyriums similar to BBDaves and outweigh him by a fair bit. As an over 200# rider I cna tell you they have been trued only once as general maintenance and twice for accidents.

They are still going strong.

BK

[CXHawk]

At close to 200 lbs, I had trouble keeping my old wheels true - Velocity Aeroheads laced to Daytona hubs. When I got my Serotta Fierte last year I got a set of Campy Scirocco wheels. After 3000 miles, they are as true as day one. Not the lightest wheels, but they make a good training wheelset. I have several teammates that are of clydesdale size and they swear by their Ks.

BTW, I am totally satisfied with the Fierte. I broke the frame on my old bike and my LBS got the Fierte in and built in just 3 days.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . tend to be a “Love ‘em or hate ‘em” product, from what I’ve seen here on the forum. People who likes ‘em, well, they likes ‘em. Those who don’t seem to be particularly vehement in their dislike.

BBDave

[bulliedawg]

how about.....I am having a fit about getting fit?

Why not? It's an exciting time! Good luck.

[jerk]

the jerk wouldn't particularly recommend ksyriums for some one of your weight for everyday training wheels....if you want to go with mavics you'll have better luck with cosmic carbones or even cosmic elites.....a bontrager race x lite wouldn't be a bad choice either and is less prone to developing the hairline cracks that seem to be fairly common around the spoke beds on ksyrium ssc sls....for handbuilts, try the dt swiss rims and your choice of hubs....pmps make for a nicely dished wheel with even spoke tension and they have nice internals.....shimano and campy also make great hubs and the dt swiss hubs are good too.....
jerk

[Climb01742]

ksyriums are like cockroaches. you can't kill 'em. 10,000 years after we're all gone, Ks will rule the earth. i personally find them a bit harsh but i'm a semi-squirt. big guys love 'em. they are bomb-proof. if your shop carries bontrager, check out the race x lite. ugly graphics, sweet wheel. (hey, jerk, can't you get 'em to tone down the rim puke? :rolleyes: )

[PsyDoc]

...with prebuilts, but is the additional cost worth it? I know a lot of folks still use OP's (or other rims) laced to a shimano hub and, you have to admit, the wheel is pretty bomb-proof. Many talk about the dish of the wheel, but wheels with more dish have been around forever and have not been a big deal. I think Burch should take the more cost-effective wheel route and wait to see what comes out next year, or the year after, or wait for the end-of-the-year sales or watch ebay. My two experiences with prebuilts have been "so-so" and, in my opinion, the cost of prebuilts and the "bling" factor do not equate in a wheel that is leaps and bounds better than a DT Swiss RR 1.1 rims laced to a shimano hub with Wheelsmith spokes. But then again, I am not a racer so a boutique or prebuit wheel does not make sense for me to own.

[Ray]

I know a lot of folks still use OP's (or other rims) laced to a shimano hub and, you have to admit, the wheel is pretty bomb-proof. Many talk about the dish of the wheel, but wheels with more dish have been around forever and have not been a big deal.
I've got a few sets of wheels with Shimano hubs and Open Pros in front, but after having some problems with an OP rear a few years ago, I've been getting the rear built with a Matrix Aurora rim, an offset rim about the same width of an OP and only a few grams heavier. These have been bombproof (although I only weigh in the 165 range). I have three of these rear wheels and have done all sorts of riding on them including a week on washboard dirt roads in the San Juan mountains and I've never had a problem with them. I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of chi-chi wheels, but for handbuilts OPs aren't the only good option.

-Ray

[Serotta PETE]

Jerk,

I had thought about KSYRIUM's, but someone told me that with my riding style (mashing with high torque) and weight (~200) that I would destroy them. Any thoughts on that?

Someone on this forum was talking highly or Protons. I guess that I will have to research those too.

Thanks for the input.

I assure you that you will not destroy Ksyriums........much has been said about the wheels, but them being weak is not a concern. I know folks that are that type of rider and weight and have many 1000 miles on them

[M_A_Martin]

Well,

What are you going to do with the bike?

The following comments are from someone who doesn't race, isn't over 150, and well...I ride my bike to ride my bike.

For everyone who knocks open pros laced to good hubs probably hasn't been stuck out in the middle of freak'n no where lately with no cell coverage with a buddy who was riding stupid light, low spoke wheels until a spoke broke. You can't fix them on the road (well, unless you have a spare spoke and can unlace and relace a high tension wheel roadside) and you can't ride the wheel anymore. So you're stuck riding for help while your buddy is stuck sitting there waiting.

28/32 spoke wheels, open pros or custom stuff, you can limp home on them. Just something to think about.

I'm even switching my mountain bike back to reasonably spoked wheels because I don't need to be stuck out in the woods due to a broken spoke....that and I sold the low spoke set. ;)

[flydhest]

The only problem with Maryann is that she makes sense.

[Serotta PETE]

:cool: She stated some very good food for thought....

[Dekonick]

She has some good points - unless you race, a 32 spoke wheel is comfortable and wont leave you stranded. Come to think of it a good friend had a spoke snap on a ride last summer. It happened in town less than a mile from his bike shop so all was fine but if that had been in the western wildes.... :cool:

[Bradford]

I was doing a tour on Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia when I came across a tour member with a broken spoke and a wheel warped too much to ride. He was just sitting there, scratching his head, trying to figure out what to do. The problem was we were about 4 hours away (by car) from the nearest bike shop. As far as he knew, his tour was over. :crap:

I carry a fiber spoke with me, so I stopped, replaced his broken spoke with the fiber spoke, trued up the wheel, and he was off and running. :banana: They are great little things and can save the day or even a whole week. Can you imagine spending all that money for a tour and not being able to ride?

I understand why people like Gucci wheels, but they ain’t for me. I don’t ride anything I can’t fix on the side of the road.

My advice is get a good hand built set of wheels, learn how they work, carry a fiber spoke, and know how to use it if you break a spoke.

[Birch Hill]

:banana:

You are the first person in my entire 45 years of living that has MY name!!! Way cool.

I ride a CDA and will be at the Serotta weekend in June. Are you going?

I live in the greater Boston area and my husband (Pinarello and Colnago) and son (Fondriest) also ride.

Is Burch a family name? is it an abreviation of a longer name - mine is actually Burchell and it was my maternal grandmother's maiden name.

BURCH

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . Ksyrium owners have had spokes break out on the road? I'm certainly not one of them in 10k miles. At least on the K's I think that possibility is remote enough to not be worried about. Of course, I have not been riding them at 200+lbs . . . the only pre-builts I have heard of with that problem are Rolf's. I have an acquaintance who weights 190-200 who lost at least three spokes--actually the spokes did not break, they just backed out of the nipples. This happened once out on a ride with me where we made a comical little three-stooges type scene at roadsie trying to shake the nipple out of the rim, then fit everything back together and get the wheel trued well enough to ride home. :rolleyes:

BBDave

[M_A_Martin]

Thanks Fly!

Dave: Seems to me we've had at least two forum members have issues with rear kryseriums. I think those were cracked rims, not broken spokes...I think one more as well. I think all were warrenty repairs. Oddly enough, I think two of them were in AZ. This is probably an acceptable failure rate...well, for Arizona.

The other thing I would look at if I were buying a nice set of wheels are the threads on this forum dealing with Rotational Weight reduction. I think there's been some wheel discussion on those threads as well.


I think it's funny that we always talk about fit of the bike vs. use of the bike but we don't talk so much about the appropriate wheels for the job we're asking them to do. (Well, except some of the forum members who don't post here anymore...dbrk?)

[Big Dan]

I have a set of K's with about 6K trouble free miles. Still I rather ride my D/A hubs with CXP 33's.
I don't think I would buy the K's again.....They seem to be a better bargain a couple of years ago....
btw I'm around 190-195... :D

[William]

28/32 spoke wheels, open pros or custom stuff, you can limp home on them. Just something to think about.

Good point MA. I have had to improvise repairs a few times over the years out on the road due to broken spokes. I've never carried a spare spoke like Bradford, but I always have my spoke wrench handy and have been able to true it up enough to get back home on each time.
I wouldn't ride a set of wheels that I couldn't fix if needed.

William

[flydhest]

Bradford,

Ain't Cape Breton beautiful? Where did your friend break down? My mom is from Nova Scotia, but the southern part, the peninsula.

What kind of wheel was it that broke a spoke and couldn't be ridden? The times when I've broken spokes, I've been able to get home without an issue. That sounds like a serious boo-boo. Good thing you had that spare, I reckon.

[Ahneida Ride]

MA is right. :)

For everyday use, Get a bomb proof wheel set.

Mavic CXP 33, 36 spokes with 3x lacing, 14 guage spokes,
White Ind. Racer X hubs. Built by my LBS with free lifetime truing,
as if they ever need it !!

Even William could not destroy these puppies ......

Thanks MA for being the voice of sanity on the forum. ;)

[BURCH]

:banana:

You are the first person in my entire 45 years of living that has MY name!!! Way cool.

I ride a CDA and will be at the Serotta weekend in June. Are you going?

I live in the greater Boston area and my husband (Pinarello and Colnago) and son (Fondriest) also ride.

Is Burch a family name? is it an abreviation of a longer name - mine is actually Burchell and it was my maternal grandmother's maiden name.

BURCH

How funny...It is actually short for BURCHIANTI. My Great Aunt (85 yrs old) actually calls my great uncle that who is 85 also. I have gone by "Burch" since I was 8.

Anyhow, Not sure about the June thing. When is it?

[Bradford]

Flydhest,

You are right about Cape Breton, an absolutely unbelievable place to tour. I bought my first touring bike from Peter Mooney about 15 years ago for a tour down the west coast. At the time, Peter told me Cape Breton is the best place to tour on the planet. In took me until last year, but I finally made it out there, and boy was it worth it. My wife and I took the tandem and did and 8 day tour, and it was perfect. It certainly should be on anybody’s list of a place to tour. We did a basic tour that made campground reservations, provided route maps, and schlepped our gear from place to place. I’ll bring our pictures to the open house; my wife’s stoker cam came up with some impressive shots.

Nova Scotia was a bit of a homecoming for me also. My grandfather was born on the boat from England to Nova Scotia and grew up in Halifax until he was a young man and moved to Boston. I’d like to go back again some day, maybe to tour with the family.

I can’t remember exactly where he broke down, but it was towards the end of the tour, so it was just past the big mountains. I also don’t remember what wheel he had, I was concentrating on getting him (and us) back on the road and wasn’t paying attention.

I agree it is unusual for a wheel to deform that much, but it was way out of true. I’m a big boy who is pretty harsh on wheels, so I’ve broken my share of spokes (over 20, believe it or not). Usually I can just let out the brakes and ride it home if I need to, or at least fiddle with the other spokes to get it close to true. I carry spokes for the touring bike and tandem, so if I break spokes on the non-drive side and can thread in a new one in a few minutes. If it’s drive side, I try to do what I can to get it home. The fiber spoke is major surgery, so I’d only use it in an emergency or on a tour when I’m too far from home.

The good news is that I’ve grown a little smarter with old age and have better wheels. I’m entering my third season on my Peter White wheels (CXP33/DA), and no problems yet. Also, the wife and I have beat on our Co-Motion pretty hard, including two tours that included plane flights, and the stock Hugi/Velocities that came with it are still perfect. (I did crack and axel on our last trip to Jasper, but that was in transit, and it was either my packing job or the TSA folks not re-packing it right). If I ever get disposable income again, and after I’m off bike-spending probation my wife put me on when I bought my Legend, I’m going to have Peter White build me some Phil-hubbed touring wheels (36 front, 40 back) and all my bikes will be perfect. Then again, it is a lot cheaper just to carry extra spokes taped to my rack and fix the wheel a couple of times a year.
Who knows, maybe all this clean living will pay off and 2005 will be free of broken spokes.

[BURCH]

Flydhest,

You are right about Cape Breton, an absolutely unbelievable place to tour. I bought my first touring bike from Peter Mooney about 15 years ago for a tour down the west coast. At the time, Peter told me Cape Breton is the best place to tour on the planet. In took me until last year, but I finally made it out there, and boy was it worth it. My wife and I took the tandem and did and 8 day tour, and it was perfect. It certainly should be on anybody’s list of a place to tour. We did a basic tour that made campground reservations, provided route maps, and schlepped our gear from place to place. I’ll bring our pictures to the open house; my wife’s stoker cam came up with some impressive shots.

Nova Scotia was a bit of a homecoming for me also. My grandfather was born on the boat from England to Nova Scotia and grew up in Halifax until he was a young man and moved to Boston. I’d like to go back again some day, maybe to tour with the family.

I can’t remember exactly where he broke down, but it was towards the end of the tour, so it was just past the big mountains. I also don’t remember what wheel he had, I was concentrating on getting him (and us) back on the road and wasn’t paying attention.

I agree it is unusual for a wheel to deform that much, but it was way out of true. I’m a big boy who is pretty harsh on wheels, so I’ve broken my share of spokes (over 20, believe it or not). Usually I can just let out the brakes and ride it home if I need to, or at least fiddle with the other spokes to get it close to true. I carry spokes for the touring bike and tandem, so if I break spokes on the non-drive side and can thread in a new one in a few minutes. If it’s drive side, I try to do what I can to get it home. The fiber spoke is major surgery, so I’d only use it in an emergency or on a tour when I’m too far from home.

The good news is that I’ve grown a little smarter with old age and have better wheels. I’m entering my third season on my Peter White wheels (CXP33/DA), and no problems yet. Also, the wife and I have beat on our Co-Motion pretty hard, including two tours that included plane flights, and the stock Hugi/Velocities that came with it are still perfect. (I did and axel on our last trip to Jasper, but that was in transit, and it was either my packing job or the TSA folks not re-packing it right). If I ever get disposable income again, and after I’m off bike-spending probation my wife put me on when I bought my Legend, I’m going to have Peter White build me some Phil-hubbed touring wheels (36 front, 40 back) and all my bikes will be perfect. Then again, it is a lot cheaper just to carry extra spokes taped to my rack and fix the wheel a couple of times a year.
Who knows, maybe all this clean living will pay off and 2005 will be free of broken spokes.


Bradford,
You hit the nail on the head....I have made my final decision to be CXP33/DA. I think that they will be strong enough for my 200lb butt that is always in the saddle and mashing up hills. As well, as being a hub to last forever and a setup that is easily fixable. I don't want to be caught on the road or running around from shop to shop looking for spokes. My old wheels are the old Shimano 600 hubs with cheap mavic rims (built the bike in college on a small budget). Anyhow, I took these wheels across the country one summer break and have beat on them for the last 6 years. I bet they are still good enough hubs to rebuild again...In the end, I guess the answer to my question about wheel was no further away than my own basement sitting on the Cannondale (hand built wheels on great hubs).

Thanks.

[BURCH]

By the way everyone, the shop dealer told me today that he would not charge me any extra for the CXP33/DA vs going with Cosmos.

Thanks for all the input.

[Bradford]

I'm working hard to get back to 200 lbs after sneaking up to 220 this year. (Damn working on the road, it just kills me). Hopefully I'll land some work locally and get more time on the bike.

As many have said before, the CXP33 ain't the lightest wheel on the market; but then again, neither am I. It's just the penalty I pay for eating too much pizza.

[BURCH]

As many have said before, the CXP33 ain't the lightest wheel on the market; but then again, neither am I.


I agree. Until I get down to zero percent body fat, I am not going to freak out about the weight of my rims. I had a friend in college who used to say that instead of worrying about the weight of your bike, you should just take a trip to the bathroom before you ride and chill out.

[William]

Burch,
Since you're a big boy like some of us, go to the barbarianbike blog or bigmacbikes blog listed below. Both have excellent info on Big Boy wheels. It's good to read up on the experiences of the local Big Guns.

William

[Birch Hill]

It's the weekend of June 11th and 12th . See the Serotta home page for details.

BURCH

[happyfather]

I personally think that going with the CDA would be for cosmetic reasons of having a carbon rear. Serotta is a good enough builder to make a steel bike ride comfortably enough without the need for a carbon rear. I think that a carbon rear makes for a "stealthy" kind of look and an all steel bike looks "traditional". Whatever your fancy, each will bring you joy.

As for the wheels, I think you have a right to look elsewhere for wheels.
But I would give the lbs the option of price matching. When I bought my first custom bike (lugged Waterford) I bought a set of barely used wheels from ebay and got a wheelset credit for the Chorus kit I bought. The lbs didn't argue with me and when I went to pick up the new bike they offered to put both wheels on the truing stand for me and touched them up free of charge so I wouldn't have a new bike with a slight wobble to the wheels.

As for picking Cosmos vs. OP w/ Dura Ace, I would pick a wheelset based off what you lust after performance wise. I think the Cosmos will be a little faster but a little harsher riding compared to a 3-cross OP wheelset. Personally an offset rim with Dura Ace is the way to go.

Happy riding with your new bike.