Seven Steel?

[scrooge]

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So I thought I was all set to go with a Curtlo custom steel (www.curtlo.com)--I figured for $700 dollars (frame alone) I couldn't go wrong. But now I'm starting to wonder. My issue is not with Curtlo's work, but more with fit. I'm 6' 8" and, to my knowledge, have never had a bike that fits correctly. Therefore, I'm more than a little nervous about phoning in a few measurements taken at the LBS to get a biket that is truly the perfect fit (I wasn't all that impressed witht the fit process at this shop--he put me on a homemade fit cycle and seemed to be a little too laid back about the whole thing) To counter act this, I called another shop today (a Seven Dealer) to see if they would do a fit. The would for $100 (which would go towards the cost of a bike if I purchased it there). They also mentioned that they're having a 1 day sale where the frames would be 15% off. Long story short, I'm tempted to go with the Seven Axiom Steel. Anyone have experience with Seven's steel work? I like the idea of getting measured by the people who are (somewhat)responsible for building my bike and who will let me return the bike if I don't like the fit. Any comments? Should I just get over it, save my $400, and go with Curtlo?

[Ahneida Ride]

Scrooge,

This is tough. any one can claim to be a "fitter" and all LBS's will claim to be experts. Virtually any manufacture will also claim to be big guy experts.
Are they ? Have they fit/built ton's of Large Frames ? Do they know how to
select tubing ? Do they have a guy like Kelly Bedford ? ( serotta's chief custom designer )

This I can say.There are some Excellent Serotta Fitters out there. Seek out
all the Serotta and other "High end shops" in your area. Interview them.
Then Get a "real" fitting.

It took me 10 months to converge in on Mt. Cyco in Ludlow Vt. and Serotta.
Don't rush it.

A truly custom bike with the right tubes. is pure magic. It's worth the research.

Serotta can perform magic. SO can others, be very careful. otherwise
you are wasting $$$$.

[Wayne77]

From what I have seen Seven's steel bikes look great. If it were me, I would trust Serotta's fit process more than Seven's though. Unless a business is selling off stock, I'm always suspicious of "1 day sales". Can the bike shop look you in the face and honestly tell you the deal is no good if you came in the next day with the cash? Usually these types of things are just a way of creating urgency to close the sale. I wouldn't rush this kind of decision, there will always be deals on various super sweet custom frames out there. I wouldn't rule out Serotta's CIII, Strong, Kirk, Waterford, etc etc either - all very competitive with Seven steel with equal (if not better, in some cases) capabilities in the fit dept, IMO.

[PsyDoc]

...what exactly is a "real fitting"? I have been fit by two certified Serotta fit technicians in Florida and got very different results. I think that implying that Serotta fit technicians are the "only" ones who can do a "real fit" is misleading. Getting "fit" gives you a range of positions that could be suitable for you. But, what translates on paper does not always translate into a bike that "fits perfectly"...how exactly do we know that there is not some other position out there that might be even more comfortable or efficient?

[Climb01742]

another way to do a "fitting" is to supply the builder with your body measurements. competitivecyclist.com has a good measuring part of their site. perhaps ask whatever builder you're considering if he would work with those measurements. i did this with a custom pegoretti and the frame fit is spot-on. another option...

[sevencyclist]

I had my bike fitted at Citycycle of SF which fits bike for both Serotta and for Seven. It would be interesting to see if interpretations of the same measurements and fitters translates to different bikes by Seven and Serotta. However, I do not have the resource to test this out, so I only have a Seven so far.

I believe the soul of the bike is in the frame, so I would rather save on the parts a little and spend the right amount to make sure you have a good frame that fits and performs to your requirement. However, only you know what is appropriate amount for you.

Seven makes great steel bikes just like Serotta, and IF. Other smaller custom frame builders like Strong, Vanilla, Kirk, and Richard Sachs can also do the great magic. Personally I got titanium out of my system with my Seven, now I am fascinated by lugged steel frames.

[coylifut]

Two guys on our team are 6'5 and have Ti Sevens. They love em. They make a good draft. Especially when side by side.

[Jeff N.]

My gloss-black-with-white-decals Seven Axiom Steel is as sweet as they come. The TIG welds are perfect and the ride is superb. Jeff N.

[Peter]

The 100 bucks spent on the Seven fit session would be money VERY WELL SPENT, even if it's not put toward a Seven purchase. Consider it a second opinion.

Ignore the "one day sale". Read Consumer Reports; they always deride the one day sale promotion as a scam. If they can't give you a week to think about it (I think that's a fair time frame, but be sure you get a price guarantee in WRITING) then go elsewhere-perhaps take the Seven measurements to Curtlo!

And your bad taste about the cavalier attitude of the first dealer is valid. As my boss says, "Perception is Reality". His lack of appropriate attitude could be a harbinger of a bad frame purchase. Consider talking to Curtlo directly regarding your measurements even though Curtlo may require you process the sale through the dealer. Curtlo may be able to provide you with more details on how to properly measure yourself. Actually, you should have a friend do it for you, but you know what I mean.

[Dekonick]

Call David Kirk - you might be suprised what you can get... He is great to talk with.

[scrooge]

Call David Kirk - you might be suprised what you can get... He is great to talk with.
I'd love to--but he's out of my price range (If you're reading this Dave, I'm not above taking charity!).

[Steve Hampsten]

Doug Curtis had a nice booth at the recent Seattle Bike Expo - his frames have always looked great (to me), but his prices are waaaay too low. Doug is pretty tall himself, and I think he would be able to do just fine fitting you. The Seven's are nice and all that, but for my eye, the Curtlos way have more soul.

I'd prolly get one, but...

Wrench Science and Competitive Cyclist both have decent fitting systems - checkemout.

[Smiley]

I'd make sure whatever builder you chose can supply the tubes to make a BIG bike that don't flex and tracks straight . Most guys can talk about it but most can't deliver . Serotta has a special set of tubes for bikes bigger then 62 cm so buyer beware . I am not saying anything bad about the builders listed by everybody here but when you get to be 6 ft 8 inches nobody buys off the rack . Ask Too Tall as he's a horse at 6-8 , meaning one powerful dude on a bike . Ask the Tall one how many frames he's broke in his lifetime.

[William]

With all due respect to everyone who has posted so far, my thoughts echo PsyDoc's. A lot of people here have had great experiences with Serotta fitters. My Serotta fitter bit the big one. It has been pretty much unanimous, every knowledgeable person who has seen the specs and me on the bike agree on one thing...."what were these people smoking???"

I was put on a Serotta fit bike and run through the measurement process. They watched me ride my old bike up & down the street, from the side and back. Explained my riding style, strength/power output, and what I felt I needed from this frame. And I ended up with a frame that is small for me. It should have been a 65-66 cm. The quality of the build was great, but they went off the fitters information. The point to my ramble is that just because it's a Serotta fitter, or other marquee builder's name on the door doesn't guarantee a good fit. If you can't go directly to the horses mouth, you're relying on someone else to accurately measure, understand your needs and desires for said frame, and then accurately convey all this to the builder.
Don't just rely on the "name". If at all possible, ask around and see if you can get some real feedback from locals who have been fitted before. Make sure at some point along the line you can talk to the builder directly to go over your fitting and expectations. Ask questions on this forum, there are a lot of knowledgeable builders, fitters, and experienced cyclists here who have been in your shoes before.

Best of luck,

William

[Too Tall]

Scrooge. How about some self help? Call Bill Boston and pay for a limited use version of his fitting software. It is inexpensive by any standard and Bill has a clue how to fit us tall ones. By gaining insight and knowledge of what goes into a proper fit you will become a powerful consumer.

Smiley old man. Moi? Break frames??? Only one ever...but I broke it 4 times ;)

[OldDog]

Take Steve Hampstens advice. Call Curtlo. Option two is spend the extra $$ on a CIII and find a good Serotta fitter and call Kelly at Serotta to confirm your needs against the fitters advice. Good luck.

[davids]

Scrooge,

By all means, get fit by someone you trust, and make sure to advocate for yourself during the process!

As far as Seven steel, I own a Steel Axiom and love it. Here's a link with more info: My Steel Axiom (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=1993).

Lots of great steel bikes out there - The Axiom is one of them.

Good luck!

[marle]

Lennard Zinn is a big guy with a fit program --
http://www.zinncycles.com/FitIntro.aspx

[christian]

Just another word of caution - don't think that a Seven fit is immune to problems. An acquaintance of mine just got a custom Seven. To my eye, the headtube is about 3-4cm too short, and she's using a big stack of spacers and an upjutting stem. Really no excuse for that on a custom, is there?

[Ahneida Ride]

It is the customers mission and quest to locate a competent fitter.

Look what happened to William. His situation is not unique. I know of
one other similiar secenario. ( NOT ME )

A "real fiting" is done by a real fitter. Someone with tons of experience.
In the case of Serotta, a fitter who will have a few iterative conversations
with Kelly. Especially when one is at the far spectrum of the Bell Curve.

Interview your fitter !!!!!

My fitter spent an entire Friday afternoon with me. He Asked me tons of
questions. In addition he explained the "Big Bikes" he previously fit. He
also had several conservations with Kelly. The result = perfection.

[William]

YOU GO AR!!! :banana:

It is the customers mission and quest to locate a competent fitter.

YEAH, COMPETENT FITTER!! :banana: :banana:

A "real fiting" is done by a real fitter.

REAL FITTER!!! :banana: :banana:

Interview your fitter !!!!!

INTERVIEW!!! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

LISTEN TO AR!! DON"T-BE-A-WILLIAM!!

william

[caffeine power]

I got fitted for my Serotta 10 years before I got fitted for my Seven. It was done by two different dealers. The only difference was my recommended stem length due to age related lack of flexibility. I can't speak to Seven's quality of welds on their steel frames but I doubt it is any different than their Ti welds (A+++ :banana: )

:banana: :banana:

As long as you are comfortable with the dealer doing the fit you should end up with a sweet ride from either company.

[Tony Edwards]

Curtlo frames do seem like a steal. Are the prices on their website still current (the site says "Curtlo Cycles 2003")?

[DLA]

It is the customers mission and quest to locate a competent fitter.

Look what happened to William. His situation is not unique. I know of
one other similiar secenario. ( NOT ME )

A "real fiting" is done by a real fitter. Someone with tons of experience.
In the case of Serotta, a fitter who will have a few iterative conversations
with Kelly. Especially when one is at the far spectrum of the Bell Curve.

Interview your fitter !!!!!

My fitter spent an entire Friday afternoon with me. He Asked me tons of
questions. In addition he explained the "Big Bikes" he previously fit. He
also had several conservations with Kelly. The result = perfection.

Excellent comment! I if I may expand:

When interviewing the fitter I think it is important to ask what their policy is if you are unhappy with the fit. Even the best fitter is still human. My guess is that miscommunication is the root of most problems with custom fitting. I also imagine that most experienced fitters have had clients that are dissatisfied. In essence, that is what we worry about when we invest so much money for a custom made product: "What if I don't like it?" Ask your fitter how they would deal with such an issue...

Also, when interviewing your fitter, try to gauge how well they are listening to you, really hearing what you are saying. It may be that fitters most critical ability is to know what questions to ask and to listen to what their client is saying.

[OldDog]

Excellent comment! I if I may expand:

When interviewing the fitter I think it is important to ask what their policy is if you are unhappy with the fit.





I took my wife who is 4' 11" to Tom Kellogg for a custom. We ordered a compact ti with 650 wheels. I posed the question, what if we don't like it?
His response, bring it back and we will make her another.

Class act. The bike was perfect.

[bags27]

Time for my weekly statement that Tom Kellogg is a fitting genius (and a great, great guy). On the other hand, I had a Serotta fitting previously that turned out not so good (despite the fitter being terrifically smart and trustworthy), and I've reported before that I have it on impeccable authority of a completely disastrous Serotta fitting by someone known to a lot of people on this site--a fitting that made a beautiful custom bike unridable.

I don't think all the powermeters and measuring formulae in the world mean anything compared to someone who is really experienced, takes the time to listen, and is willing to give honest feedback. Fitting a bike is no different than any other craft: some who do it are talented and some just cash their paychecks on Fridays.

[Michael Katz]

Having gone through 4 different custom bike fittings with 4 different fitters/shops, I keep coming back to my fit by Tom Kellogg as resulting in the best balanced and responsive handling bike I've owned. What I find fascinating is that no fancy fit machines or plug in the body measurement computer programs were used. Just eyeballing me on a current bike (a Seven whose geometry was all wrong and hardly an example of the right design for me to use as a template) and a couple of measurements of that bike. No, wait, there was one peice of exotic fit equipment used - the half round file Tom inserted under the palm of my hands while I was on the hoods.