View Full Version : Lugged Steel Serotta question
Are there any plans for Serotta to once again build a lugged steel frame? Unless I've missed something, I don't see a lugged steel frame in their lineup.
I doubt it....the CSI was the last.
Too expensive and a limited market...I think they want to focus on building cutting edge race bikes. Let the Dave Kirk's and Kelly Bedfords serve that market.
Lugged steel does not currently fit into that niche....
spacemen3
11-20-2009, 05:02 PM
I'm sure the average Serotta buyer can afford an upcharge for lugs and internal cable routing, so why not offer it?
I'm sure the average Serotta buyer can afford an upcharge for lugs and internal cable routing, so why not offer it?
cuz they are not needed on a race bike...
Dave Kirk posted a nice piece about how, what seem like little changes to the consumer, end up being real production headaches for the manufacturer.
You might search for that.
There are enough small builders doing custom lugged steel + options that Serotta doesn't need to go there. They (the small builders) do it better and more cost effectively.
Steel doesn't necessarily equate to a race bike frame in these days of carbon fiber. (Who races on steel anymore?)
So why would Serotta even build steel frames?
Steel doesn't necessarily equate to a race bike frame in these days of carbon fiber. (Who races on steel anymore?)
So why would Serotta even build steel frames?
I'll let someone who races bikes get into this...but would bet that anyone who says you can't race steel bikes, doesn't know much about race bikes.
I wonder what e-richies 'cross team would say?
;)
rwsaunders
11-20-2009, 06:09 PM
I wonder what e-richies 'cross team would say?
;)
Some of them would complain about the Cole wheels.... :cool:
I'll let someone who races bikes get into this...but would bet that anyone who says you can't race steel bikes, doesn't know much about race bikes.
I wonder what e-richies 'cross team would say?
;)
My point is you can race steel bikes. Even lugged steel bikes. It's just not considered...how can I put it...de rigeur of going fast.
My point is you can race steel bikes. Even lugged steel bikes. It's just not considered...how can I put it...de rigeur of going fast.
I agree...
mpetry
11-20-2009, 06:38 PM
if you offer "lugged" then you have to maintain brazing as a skill set in the factory. It's expensive, from both a facility and labor skill standpoint. Is it justified ? I don't know. How many lugged frames would be ordered per year? 5 or 6 ?
I'd consider a C3 with lugs, if it was offered. Probably would cost about the same as a Sachs, now. But hard to justify the expense when Serotta is putting big capital into composite fabrication.
Mark Petry
"might consider a Meivici, too"
Bainbridge Island, WA
if you offer "lugged" then you have to maintain brazing as a skill set in the factory. It's expensive, from both a facility and labor skill standpoint. Is it justified ? I don't know. How many lugged frames would be ordered per year? 5 or 6 ?
I'd consider a C3 with lugs, if it was offered. Probably would cost about the same as a Sachs, now. But hard to justify the expense when Serotta is putting big capital into composite fabrication.
Mark Petry
"might consider a Meivici, too"
Bainbridge Island, WA
I agree with everything you say here. My dilemma is that one day, I'd like to funnel my collection down to a collection of one or two bikes, and one of those I'd like to be a custom lugged steel frame.
A C3 in lugs would be great. I'd be a customer because my LBS sells Serotta frames.
But for lugs, I'd have to go elsewhere, and that's the irony: there are a lot of builders elsewhere who offer lugs. I won't name them, partly because everyone knows who they are.
Cost wise? Well I saw a builder today that offers custom steel lugged frames for $1,500.
mpetry
11-20-2009, 07:11 PM
"lugged steel frame" does not equal a lugged Serotta C3. Those things were the best ever - the tapered tubeset, big at the bottom bracket, and all the special tricks are not "check the box" options from any other maker.
A lugged C3 is a real special bike. But I understand why it's not in the current Serotta line up.
Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA
jbrainin
11-20-2009, 07:43 PM
Personally, I'd like to recreate the Colorado II with a stainless steel tubeset. (Lugs and fillet brazing, yum!) When the time comes, I'm pretty sure Mr. Kirk will be willing to accommodate me.
...A lugged C3 is a real special bike. But I understand why it's not in the current Serotta line up....
That would be called a CSI!
Same tubes....CSI was the lugged or fillet version...CDA / CIII was tig'd
:beer:
Fivethumbs
11-20-2009, 08:24 PM
It would be cool if they offered a 25th anniversary (whenever that comes around - 2011?) 7-11 Huffy/Serotta.
Ken C
11-20-2009, 08:37 PM
cuz they are not needed on a race bike...
Dave Kirk posted a nice piece about how, what seem like little changes to the consumer, end up being real production headaches for the manufacturer.
You might search for that.
There are enough small builders doing custom lugged steel + options that Serotta doesn't need to go there. They (the small builders) do it better and more cost effectively.
I doubt that most serottas are raced. Also how many people on this forum and on the other forum purchase lugged bikes? I bet it is a pretty good market. I always wanted a CSI, but I doubt I would purchase a non lugged Serotta. Serotta would do well offering stock, lugged bikes. I would definately be in the market for such a frame. Redo of the Atlanta.
Ken C
11-20-2009, 08:42 PM
if you offer "lugged" then you have to maintain brazing as a skill set in the factory. It's expensive, from both a facility and labor skill standpoint.
I think there is a missconception that TIG welding is easier than brazing. I bet the skill set necessary to be great at each are no different in terms of difficulty.
Ken
Peter P.
11-20-2009, 08:44 PM
Everybody is moaning because Serotta isn't offering a lugged steel frame. These people pine for a CSI or Colorado III.
Even if Serotta isn't building 'em, wouldn't it be nice if they could offer the tubes and lugs for sale to custom builders? Serotta must have some old stock they need to liquidate.
rounder
11-20-2009, 09:17 PM
About a year ago, serotta sold some bikes under the Heritage name, if i remember correctly. They were road and cross frames that were only available in limited colors and selection. The prices were low. I went to an evening with serotta night last spring, and asked Ben about them. He said that they were built from old tubes that were just lying around and that they were now all gone.
Bummer. i would have loved to have gotten one.
RedCoeurd'Acier
11-21-2009, 04:45 AM
What the model will be.......remains to be seen.................... :)
Climb01742
11-21-2009, 05:27 AM
on many levels, a lugged steel bike makes a ton of sense...but not economic sense to a company like serotta. a situation that's neither good nor bad, but a reality of allocating resources and ROI. there is, though, a silver lining: it does help let one-man shops make a living serving the market. that's cool, right?
:beer: I doubt that most serottas are raced. Also how many people on this forum and on the other forum purchase lugged bikes? I bet it is a pretty good market. I always wanted a CSI, but I doubt I would purchase a non lugged Serotta. Serotta would do well offering stock, lugged bikes. I would definately be in the market for such a frame. Redo of the Atlanta.
I doubt most bikes sold are "raced".... ;)
There was lengthy debate, moaning and gnashing of teeth when the announcement was made that the CSI was going to be discontinued...the reason given was lack of demand. There was even an attempt to offer one last run if they could get 50 or so orders put together thru the forum. I think Smiley tried to organize this. No dice...not enought demand.
I'm just glad I got mine when I did.
93legendti
11-21-2009, 09:16 AM
I thought I remember a thread announcing a limited, lugged Serotta model, the "10", iirc.
SamIAm
11-21-2009, 09:22 AM
I thought I remember a thread announcing a limited, lugged Serotta model, the "10", iirc.
I remember that too. Ben, himself, was going to build 10 lugged steel bikes. Don't know what happened with that.
Also, just as a data point, Seven is planning on introducing a lugged steel frame in the near future.
Here's that post from David Kirk I referenced a few posts back:
http://serotta.com/forum/showpost.php?p=625062&postcount=9
good stuff on how it is easier for a small shop to do custom than a big one.
Pete Serotta
11-21-2009, 10:52 AM
Yes, there is not a "lugged" steel bike in the 2010 lineup. I am also sad that there is not, but it is really business realities that dictated it. (not enough folks wanted them).
There are many out there that do offer wonderful lugged frames with some Serotta DNA....Eillis, Kirk, and K Bedford, They are past alumni of Serotta lugged history.
Additionally if you check Spectrum, Goodrich, Hampsten - they als0 make "lust" frames. Naturally Sach's, Vanilla, among others would be there but the wait is in years...
Yes, if I and others could ever talk Ben into another anniversary bike, I would be getting one....
Ahneida Ride
11-21-2009, 11:04 AM
Serotta will not be making any lugged frames in the near future.
and that is straight from the grape vine and rumor mill.
Too bad. The CSi was a beauty.
One reason was the lack of orders.
I've heard great reviews about the Cda, it's worth considering.
If you want "S" lugged steel. Contact Bedford, Kirk, or Ellis (Dave Wages).
Theses guys are Masters with a torch and Perfectionists.
jeo99
11-21-2009, 11:15 AM
OZ,
Thanks for finding the piece from Dave Kirk. He is truely one of the good builders out there and his article is right on. However, my issue is what happened to the personlized frame builder we once knew as Serotta? I can remember the days when you received a phone call or a letter from Serotta or even Ben. It may be a letter explaining why your frame is late or just to let you know they cared and appreciate your business. I personally own over twenty of his frames most of which are lugged steel my favorite. But it seems that Ben is caught-up in big business. Expand and grow is big business and the consumer is left out.
Cheers!
:crap:
cuz they are not needed on a race bike...
Dave Kirk posted a nice piece about how, what seem like little changes to the consumer, end up being real production headaches for the manufacturer.
You might search for that.
There are enough small builders doing custom lugged steel + options that Serotta doesn't need to go there. They (the small builders) do it better and more cost effectively.
Point Grey
11-22-2009, 02:00 PM
Yes, there is not a "lugged" steel bike in the 2010 lineup. I am also sad that there is not, but it is really business realities that dictated it. (not enough folks wanted them).
There are many out there that do offer wonderful lugged frames with some Serotta DNA....Eillis, Kirk, and K Bedford, They are past alumni of Serotta lugged history.
Additionally if you check Spectrum, Goodrich, Hampsten - they als0 make "lust" frames. Naturally Sach's, Vanilla, among others would be there but the wait is in years...
Yes, if I and others could ever talk Ben into another anniversary bike, I would be getting one....
Hey Pete,
I recall last years calendar saying something about ben making a handful of limited edition lug frames... what has become of that?????
Pete Serotta
11-22-2009, 04:23 PM
Hey Pete,
I recall last years calendar saying something about ben making a handful of limited edition lug frames... what has become of that?????
I really do not know. For those of you interested in one, I would suggest a "write in" to amy@serotta.com.
As long as they delay, I can save my money :)
RkyMtn
11-22-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't think anyone brought up this point regarding lugged frame building and Serotta, so here is my take:
If you build custom frames, with custom geometry and tubes, you are going to have to stock a bazillion lugs to accommodate the endless tube diameter sizes and shapes and tube angles, or build all the lugs from scratch for each order. Much easier to TIG weld the tubes!
Ben would have to have a separate department of lug craftsmen or contract out the lug building, which would time and labor intensive. And with the other craftsmen out there doing lugs, why sacrifice the money and production capacity when you can do more great TIG welded bikes.
Just get a Kirk or Argonaut.
Cheers,
Eric
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