Just an observation about courtesy and selling on this forum

[11.4]

I've noticed of late that there's a trend in the classifieds column on this forum. Someone lists an item for sale and other members start adding little critiques. There have always been people endorsing the bike or the seller, while acknowledging that it isn't their size or they can't afford it. But this is different. It happened in a bad way to someone recently who had a pair of old Cinelli rollers. They aren't as smooth as Kreitlers, but they are historic and he didn't assert otherwise. Yet the thread was corrupted by many negative comments. He never sold it and went to eBay. Remember, folks, someone is trying to sell something here. I raise this here because I found that in listing a bike for sale yesterday, I have multiple pages with discussions about why the stem should be silver, or a different angle, or why the chainring should be a different size, or whatever. Frankly, the bike is what it is and every item was carefully picked based on extensive experience in both track and fixed-road riding. I was building it for a friend who has become ill and can't ride it. I had unlimited budget and freedom to pick the best equipment, and the bike reflects that while respecting the intent as a road fixie. This forum has some wonderful people and that kind of commentary doesn't belong here. Please remember that people who are selling items need your help, not your criticism. If it's a bad seller (which happens rarely), or there's a problem with accuracy or quality, a private message first to the seller and only then a posting. For everything else, please just read and enjoy.

[mister]

i agree 11.4 and thought the same thing as soon as i read those comments.
i think the guys that happened to do it in your thread are kinda new to the forum so maybe that had a little to do with it.

guys in the classifieds are also really quick to jump on sellers that don't have many posts or have been here a short period.

[dannyg1]

My take on this is that the underlying agenda is a bit more sinister than is being talked about here. I'm beginning to think that alot of these negative posts are being posted with the intention of cast doubt on the integrity of the seller and the intention of wrenching any deals people may have on-going.

There's a distinct kind of 'who's in and who's out' mindset that's really quite rude and is entirely argued on the perception side of things. Case in point: My $275 NOS Chorus Titanium post offer, that was all shot to hell as 'way overpriced' here, yet sold for $286 on Ebay, which was on the low side of where it should've been BTW,

[fourflys]

All I'll say on this is I appreciate when people post on here BEFORE they put it on ebay... I really dislike when someone posts ad about something they have on ebay already... I'm not saying it happens a lot, but it does happen...

[jlwdm]

11.4 and others +1000.

The classifieds have become kind of embarrassing. Filled with attacks on the product, price and/or seller plus all kinds of extraneous posts that have little to do with the fact that the seller has a product he is trying to sell for a price.

The argument that the negative comments are being made to protect others on the forum is bull.

Jeff

[dannyg1]

All I'll say on this is I appreciate when people post on here BEFORE they put it on ebay... I really dislike when someone posts ad about something they have on ebay already... I'm not saying it happens a lot, but it does happen...

My Chorus post was here weeks before Ebay and what's your beef with concurrently running sales venues? If someone posts what they want for the thing RBR, Serotta, BF, CL, et al and then runs a similar price on an Ebay auction; why not all at once?

[cadence90]

As always, 11.4 is spot-on.

100%.

I think Serotta really, seriously, should follow the Weight Weenies, etc. example and simply NOT allow any replies (criticisms, snarky remarks, whatever, etc.) to Classifieds postings. Those "replies" are utterly useless. PM or email replies only.

Save bandwidth!

[fourflys]

I raise this here because I found that in listing a bike for sale yesterday, I have multiple pages with discussions about why the stem should be silver, or a different angle, or why the chainring should be a different size, or whatever.

I just read your for sale thread and while you are correct in saying people shouldn't rip the ad/product apart, I don't think there would have been as much discussion if the ad hadn't been titled "This is how a fixed gear should look"... Basically you're being pretty bold and, in a way, attacking any fixed gear that doesn't look like your's...

Just sayin'

[jscottyk]

As always, 11.4 is spot-on.

100%.

I think Serotta really, seriously, should follow the Weight Weenies, etc. example and simply NOT allow any replies (criticisms, snarky remarks, whatever, etc.) to Classifieds postings. Those "replies" are utterly useless. PM or email replies only.

Save bandwidth!

+ 1

[fourflys]

My Chorus post was here weeks before Ebay and what's your beef with concurrently running sales venues? If someone posts what they want for the thing RBR, Serotta, BF, CL, et al and then runs a similar price on an Ebay auction; why not all at once?

I have no problem with something on ebay after you've tried to sell it on here (of course we should really never know if you put it on ebay or not)....

concurrent sales- why? If you post it on here and it sells, you have no sellor fee and the buyer on here (community) gets first shot before the ebay vultures (I assume you mean having a "but it now" price)... And do you mean same or similar price above?

If you have a concurrent ad on here and a full on auction on ebay at the same time (that is advertised on here), that is just wrong...

my .02

[mister]

i don't really mind the concurrently running posts on the forums and ebay. lots of times i don't have the time or desire to scour ebay. if someone posts it and i'm interested i'll just watch on ebay and see how the bidding plays out. just because it's on ebay doesn't meant it will sell for a high price.

[dannyg1]

I have no problem with something on ebay after you've tried to sell it on here (of course we should really never know if you put it on ebay or not)....

concurrent sales- why? If you post it on here and it sells, you have no sellor fee and the buyer on here (community) gets first shot before the ebay vultures (I assume you mean having a "buy it now" price)... And do you mean same or similar price above?

If you have a concurrent ad on here and a full on auction on ebay at the same time (that is advertised on here), that is just wrong...

my .02

>>If you have a concurrent ad on here and a full on auction on ebay at the same time (that is advertised on here), that is just wrong...<<

Still don't get what's wrong with this.

Giving the community here first shot is a two way street and lately, I've been seeing pressure from the buyer's here to make everything sold into a screaming bargain, which negates, for me at least, the 'warm and fuzzy' from the concept of Serotta community vs the Ebay vultures.

Seller's and prospective buyer's aren't at odds with each other, the deal's a compromise and one no-one should feel forced into. In that regard, having no replies to the ads makes perfect sense.

[Pete Serotta]

Wow, lots of good opinions and information here....

I agree what difference does it make if an item is on e-bay and the forum or even in the NYT...... (it makes no difference to us - unless we feel you are running a commercial business-and that is a no no here).

Lately, I have been involved in more than one instance of problems between seller and buyer... so everyone please keep in mind that you need to know who you are buying from and selling to. Expectations are everything.

As to posting on someones classified thread>>>>as long as it is not a personal attack on the individual, unless you know it is a questionable seller :confused: ), most any opinion is just that and will not be addressed.

In regard to $275 seat posts - - if it sold it was worth that to someone but not to many others and that is what some voiced.

Please keep in mind that advertising is free here. Additionally, the moderators are a volunteer group and have another life and the last thing we can do is monitor and determine what is a valid posts to an ad.

I will close this with asking that you look at how many negative or distracting comments are added to some of the more frequent "sale" posters that also frequent the forum general section, (not many). Do not want to make a generalization to why this is but it is.

As others have mentioned,,,, when you post a "in your face" ad or ask a sum of $$s that is out of the norn (I am not saying what ebay fetched for the item) you can expect some comments. This does not mean you are not correct in your valuation or assessment - it just means that some folks here do not agree with you - - that is just life among family and friends :argue: :D BUT WE LOVE YOU!!!!!

[93legendti]

I've noticed of late that there's a trend in the classifieds column on this forum. Someone lists an item for sale and other members start adding little critiques. There have always been people endorsing the bike or the seller, while acknowledging that it isn't their size or they can't afford it. But this is different. It happened in a bad way to someone recently who had a pair of old Cinelli rollers. They aren't as smooth as Kreitlers, but they are historic and he didn't assert otherwise. Yet the thread was corrupted by many negative comments. He never sold it and went to eBay. Remember, folks, someone is trying to sell something here. I raise this here because I found that in listing a bike for sale yesterday, I have multiple pages with discussions about why the stem should be silver, or a different angle, or why the chainring should be a different size, or whatever. Frankly, the bike is what it is and every item was carefully picked based on extensive experience in both track and fixed-road riding. I was building it for a friend who has become ill and can't ride it. I had unlimited budget and freedom to pick the best equipment, and the bike reflects that while respecting the intent as a road fixie. This forum has some wonderful people and that kind of commentary doesn't belong here. Please remember that people who are selling items need your help, not your criticism. If it's a bad seller (which happens rarely), or there's a problem with accuracy or quality, a private message first to the seller and only then a posting. For everything else, please just read and enjoy.
I agree.

With a healthy "General Discussion" section, replies in "Classifieds" threads need not be any more than:

How would you like payment?
Dibs
specs?
I'll take it
Any more photos?
Will you ship to _____?
Would you consider parting it out?
Would you sell the frame and fork?
Good seller

and the like.

[that guy]

I just read your for sale thread and while you are correct in saying people shouldn't rip the ad/product apart, I don't think there would have been as much discussion if the ad hadn't been titled "This is how a fixed gear should look"... Basically you're being pretty bold and, in a way, attacking any fixed gear that doesn't look like your's...

Just sayin'

I agree. The "This is how a fixed gear should look" were the OP's own - somewhat bold - words. So don't be surprised when others feel differently about one's opinion on aesthetics.

[dannyg1]

Pete wrote
>>In regard to $275 seat posts - - if it sold it was worth that to someone but not to many others and that is what some voiced.<<

I disagree strongly. It sold for that because it was worth what I was asking, which makes the commentary I received both uncalled for and out of line.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250522118430&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT

[veggieburger]

I think a few people here are taking themselves WAY too seriously. I'm all for courtesy, but I believe the members here are savvy enough judge what is a good deal and what isn't. If someone jokes that those Cinelli rollers look like scuba tanks, I might agree, but can still discern whether or not they are a good product/deal.

And frankly I appreciate hearing when others have had a good buying experience with another member. If they were to say "don't buy from so and so, he screwed me over", that would be another issue altogether.

[Pete Serotta]

Many high end ti seat posts cost $200 plus and with CAMPY RECORD no longer made it ups the value. In WSJ today I ever read about a US penny (rare one) selling for a million dollars. I would be willing to bet that that raised some eyebrows.

Please keep in mind that most forum classifieds started as a way for like minded "crazies" to sell their extra or no longer needed goods to other like minder crazies. Most did not look at it as a profit center.

In looking at the thread, I did not see any personal attacks on you the person. Folks just voiced their opinion. For that item and associated price, ebay was a better venue for the sale. I can tell you I would have never paid that much nor would I have sold it for that much on here. That is just me. You are a better business person than I. Nothing wrong with that.

I will even buy the wine when we meet. PETE

Pete wrote
>>In regard to $275 seat posts - - if it sold it was worth that to someone but not to many others and that is what some voiced.<<

I disagree strongly. It sold for that because it was worth what I was asking, which makes the commentary I received both uncalled for and out of line.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250522118430&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT

[LegendRider]

Perhaps the Forum mods should consider the Weight Weenies model - that is, no comments permitted on For Sale posts.

[dannyg1]

Pete wrote:

>>forum classifieds started as a way for like minded "crazies" to sell their extra or no longer needed goods to other like minder crazies. Most did not look at it as a profit center.<<<

That's a pretty backhand ya got there Pete :rolleyes: .

I'll tell you what, I would've gladly traded the made in '91 (or so) seatpost for the relevant to its original issue price in '91 gold :)

'84 7-11 Serotta's getting offers of $2-2.5k raise no 'profit center' remarks from you, nor do the $1.6k MXL's (which are up double from last years prices). I'm getting the implied personal criticism Pete but like I said, we are all slave's to market values. I don't make up values, only what it'd cost to replace and then, what I'm willing to sell for.

[MarleyMon]

I just read your for sale thread and while you are correct in saying people shouldn't rip the ad/product apart, I don't think there would have been as much discussion if the ad hadn't been titled "This is how a fixed gear should look"... Basically you're being pretty bold and, in a way, attacking any fixed gear that doesn't look like your's...

Just sayin'
I am now of the opinion that this would be best seen as an opportunity to start
a general discussion thread on what a fixed gear should look like and reference
the classified as a an example or start point for the critique.
That way the conversation can drift w/o affecting the sale.

Cool bike. Good luck with the sale.

[avalonracing]

I enjoy the comments in the classified section. Sometimes they are informative other times they are just damn funny. Let's not take from the "personality" of this forum.

I've gotten some good hook-ups on the forum and I've been trying to return the favor. Could I get more on ebay?... Of course, as I am opening the bidding to a worldwide market. But I'd rather pass something on to a forum buddy than make a few extra dollars here and there. It makes me as happy to pass along a deal as it does to get a deal. Well almost as happy :beer:

[slowandsteady]

As always, 11.4 is spot-on - 100%.

I think Serotta really, seriously, should follow the Weight Weenies, etc. example and simply NOT allow any replies (criticisms, snarky remarks, whatever, etc.) to Classifieds postings. Those "replies" are utterly useless. PM or email replies only.

Agreed 1,000%. All the snarky snippets and price critiquing and "I got it for less" comments are really not appropriate in the classifieds. They hurt purchase and sales FOR ALL OF US.

Comments about a Seller being good or bad are appreciated and helpfull.

Other than that all the bad comments really are not necessary and serve no purpose other than to discredit the GREAT classifieds section on this forum.

[Nautilus]

I'm new here, so I don't know how relevant my opinion is, but I wouldn't change a single thing about the classifieds section.

I think that If I post something that's over priced I should be called out on it, as it's hard to tell what something's worth a lot of the time, and I don't want to rip anyone off, but as a poor college student I like to get the fair value as well.

Negative comments aren't always as bad as they seem anyway, any publicity is good publicity as it bumps your item to the top of the list.

As for 11.4, I agree with what you said under normal circumstances, but to me making the title "This is how a fixed gear should look" seems to beg for criticism, and I'm surprised it bothered you.

[sspielman]

The commentaries in the classifieds are plain obnoxious.

[OtayBW]

>>If you have a concurrent ad on here and a full on auction on ebay at the same time (that is advertised on here), that is just wrong...<<

Still don't get what's wrong with this.
....
No big whoop either way, but I view it as a courtesy to first post among the people you hang with.

[rphetteplace]

11.4 you are as always spot on.

[John M]

From what I can gather with my frequent reading and occasional participation here, 11.4 knows a bit more about fixed gear bikes than most others around here, and when he is offering an opinion about how a bike should look (on a bike that is very fairly priced, I might add), I respect the opinion.

[r_mutt]

i agree with 11.4. snide remarks, even if justified, are what bikeforums.net is for...


:cool:

[H1449-6]

I'd make the following specific suggestions on rules for the classifieds:

a) Price required. This isn't ebay.
b) No obviously commercial sellers. There are a couple of those who post nearly every week, and that's already against the rules.
c) No posting in the classifieds unless you have x posts AND x days of registration.
d) Feedback from the buyer should be expected at the end of each transaction. That is, a final post saying something like "got the item in good condition," or whatever's relevant. Good way to check up on a seller.

[dave thompson]

I'm new here, so I don't know how relevant my opinion is, but I wouldn't change a single thing about the classifieds section.

I think that If I post something that's over priced I should be called out on it, as it's hard to tell what something's worth a lot of the time, and I don't want to rip anyone off, but as a poor college student I like to get the fair value as well.

Negative comments aren't always as bad as they seem anyway, any publicity is good publicity as it bumps your item to the top of the list.

As for 11.4, I agree with what you said under normal circumstances, but to me making the title "This is how a fixed gear should look" seems to beg for criticism, and I'm surprised it bothered you.
I going to pick on you because you're the relatively 'new kid in town' here but please don't take it personally. I'm going to use your comments to illustrate why I think comments in the classified section of this forum are unwarranted and very unwelcome.

You wrote: "I think that If I post something that's over priced I should be called out on it, as it's hard to tell what something's worth a lot of the time, and I don't want to rip anyone off, but as a poor college student I like to get the fair value as well." Define 'fair value'. Something is worth 30 different prices to 30 different people. Just because something isn't worth $XX to you doesn't mean you should call it out, or anyone else for that matter. The lack of a buyer will determine if the value of an item is fair.

You wrote: "Negative comments aren't always as bad as they seem anyway, any publicity is good publicity as it bumps your item to the top of the list." Negative comments are always bad in regards to something that is for sale, whether or not those comments are elicited or warranted. And the seller can do his own bumping to the top of the list.

You wrote: "As for 11.4, I agree with what you said under normal circumstances, but to me making the title "This is how a fixed gear should look" seems to beg for criticism, and I'm surprised it bothered you." I don't know 11.4 and I've not done any business with him but he posted his item in the classified section of the forum, not the custom bike or other section. He wasn't looking for comments, he was trying to sell a bicycle. His "This is how a fixed gear should look" title was no different than someone else posting any 'Great looking..' or 'Classic design..' or any other descriptor of an item. If anyone had a difference of opinion regarding 11.4's title it should have been expressed in an e-mail or PM to 11.4, not in his thread trying to sell the bike. IMO it was very rude and an unwelcome intrusion. I'm quite surprised he took it as well as he did.

[/end of picking on Nautilus]

There are and have been times when a seller or an item needs to be commented on; when he/it is an obvious scam/forgery/fake/theft/etc., but not when one's opinion is different that the sellers opinion about price, appearance or anything like that.

I've bought, sold and given way stuff on this forum for many years. Sometimes I've 'stolen' an item and other times I've paid more than I perhaps should have. In each instance though, I'm the guy that made the commitment to buy whatever it was. As long as the item was as represented correctly by the seller, I've never looked back about what I paid. Sometimes I realized that I did pay more than I should have; my bad. Other times I think 'what a sweet deal'. It evens out in the long run. And when I, or anyone else, has offered something here for free, I don't recall a great hue and cry not to give it away but charge for it. The PMs and e-mails come flowing in saying "give it to me".

In the selling mode, not everyone has a feel for what the "real market" is for that item, which can change almost daily. Casual spectators have no business commenting on the value of the item for sale. If they feel so strongly that they must comment, do it with an e-mail or PM.

I feel very strongly about comments in the classified section. I would be in favor, if it came to that, of not allowing any comments just so the classified ad could stand alone. The members of this forum alone, by buying or not buying, should dictate the marketplace. Not someone who is merely expressing his opinion, which at that moment is good only for him.

[sfghbiker]

I think that it is okay for the classifieds to be a bit messy. I like hearing what people have to say and at times find classified commentary interesting/useful. I myself will generally only comment if I feel like something is cool/neat looking/good deal etc. but that is just my own style and I respect that this is a virtual community of sorts and that other people have a different style and way of doing things. I would really like it if people could post up a synopsis/summary at the end of the sale which would allow us to follow up and check people out before buying. I have bought several items on these classifieds and without exception the deals have gone off great. including one from 11.4 which was in a word perfect condition, as described, etc.

[Honey]

Dave

I'm definitely new to this forum and I'm not picking on you (and I fully understand the ramifications of responding to a person with your quality reputation on this forum) but it seemed to me (as it seems to have appeared to others as well) that there was a bit of 'smugness' in the title of the post in question. That is NOT to say that 11.4 intended it at all or in any way shape or form, but it is to say that is how it came off to some. I also believe this has become a hot button topic because of the hipster craze of fixies which has led many 'pure' cyclist to defend a member or two of their stable (even if somewhat irrationally). I love the way my fixed gear looks and rides (its a steel IF with an igleheart stem which I will adore) and it is the way I believe it should look, but it seems rather imposing to make such a sweeping generalization. Calling something classic has a somewhat defined set of parameters and good is a word that along with nice and a few others that have lost meaningful effect due to overuse- also, at least to me, neither have the slight passive aggressive/smug tone implied in 11.4's title . I FULLY understand that its the classified section and not the GD or custom bikes section etc. but this is not a newspaper that gets delivered to variety of demographics. We are almost all bike nerds, love cycling, and for the most part take pride in our stable and more importantly the miles and road/trails/sights that we have seen. but If there are no responses possible (ala WW) then the classified sections is effectively a print version of a newspaper. There is NOTHING positive or negative about that, it seems that some people would prefer it and some would not. A POSSIBLE SOLUTION is to have a classified section that encourages additional comments and one that discourages. Or if we don't want to make more work for editors, a simple line at the end of an entry could: COMMENTS WELCOME or COMMENTS DISCOURAGED. Or if the result of this thread that Comments are discouraged, would it anger those venerable patriarchs of the forum if those of who wouldn't mind or would appreciate comments posted as such in his or her add?

[harlond]

I agree. The "This is how a fixed gear should look" were the OP's own - somewhat bold - words. So don't be surprised when others feel differently about one's opinion on aesthetics.It wouldn't be a tragedy if a difference of opinion went unstated.

[14max]

*****

[Marcusaurelius]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a few helpful comments and I don't find anything wrong with someone pointing out that the seller was offering the same bike on ebay for $500 less than it was being offered on the Serotta classified forum.

I think there were a few dubious ads posted that sparked some comments. I think you have to expect a bit of give in take on a forum as someone had already said.

[rugbysecondrow]

Why are people knocking the title of the ad? He was trying to get attention to sell the bike in the Classified section. It is good marketing when you get people to look at your ad. That doesn't mean it is an invitation for narrative or commentary.

I personally think it is poor form to post a negative comment regarding the style of an item that somebody is trying to sell. Keep those comments to yourself or save it for the Custom Frame or Serotta Frame sections.

[wc1934]

"Perhaps the Forum mods should consider the Weight Weenies model - that is, no comments permitted on For Sale posts".

Not sure that I would go for that approach - I welcome feedback from others who can vouch for the seller or comment on the reliability of the product - basic rules of decency and courtesy should prevail - for the most part I find everyone here to be very honest and civil.
We are all on this cite because of our love for cycling.

[dave thompson]

<snipped>...... - basic rules of decency and courtesy should prevail -.....<snipped>
... but often don't.

[slowandsteady]

"... I welcome feedback from others who can vouch for the seller or comment on the reliability of the product - basic rules of decency and courtesy should prevail...

Exactly what should be allowed. Nothing more or less. Why must everyone have an opinion on what is being sold?!?!?! If you have nothing nice to say...hold your tongue.

[Ahneida Ride]

The item should be represented properly.

Dings dents in tubes ?

Chrome not up to par?

What u see is what u get.

Price ? well that is a different subject matter.

[RBaker2778]

I am really sorry to all of those people who don't like what I am about to say, but I really don't get why people get so worked up about this. In case anyone forgot, this is a free internet site, run by volunteers. Excessive policing of this site is likely impractical. If you post your goods on here for sale, you are expected to realize that someone is going to have something to say(post) that you don't like. How is this any different from the obnoxious guy at your office that always inserts himself into your conversation, trying to convince you how he is right on every topic? While you might not like it, you deal with it, and move on.

Is it uncalled for in some instances? Probably, but this is an open forum. Until the moderators say differently, you are free to post your classified ads elsewhere where comments are not permitted.

I know we are all guilty of taking ourselves a little too seriously at times, and this seems to be no exception. Lighten up everyone, and go ride your bikes.

[tkbike]

This whole discussion has me confused, if you’re confident in whom you are and what you’re about, you should welcome any input that is given, whether it be positive or negative. Life is too short to stress about what you perceive as a negative, would you rather be completely ignored. I have purchased three frames (Fierte IT, Lemond and a Strong) and numerous components from this forum and base my purchases on all the comments both positive and negative. If it wasn’t for this forum and the very “friendly” pricing in the classifieds section I wouldn’t be riding what I am. Keep everything the way it is and GO OUT FOR A RIDE!

[fiamme red]

Did anyone take Louis up on his offer? ;)

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=65084

[rugbysecondrow]

I am really sorry to all of those people who don't like what I am about to say, but I really don't get why people get so worked up about this. In case anyone forgot, this is a free internet site, run by volunteers. Excessive policing of this site is likely impractical. If you post your goods on here for sale, you are expected to realize that someone is going to have something to say(post) that you don't like. How is this any different from the obnoxious guy at your office that always inserts himself into your conversation, trying to convince you how he is right on every topic? While you might not like it, you deal with it, and move on.

Is it uncalled for in some instances? Probably, but this is an open forum. Until the moderators say differently, you are free to post your classified ads elsewhere where comments are not permitted.

I know we are all guilty of taking ourselves a little too seriously at times, and this seems to be no exception. Lighten up everyone, and go ride your bikes.

I think most people aren't proposing rules, but rather courtesy. Applying a filter on what one deems worth commenting on and what is none of their business.

You got the last part right, go ride your bikes.

[dannyg1]

I am really sorry to all of those people who don't like what I am about to say, but I really don't get why people get so worked up about this. In case anyone forgot, this is a free internet site, run by volunteers. Excessive policing of this site is likely impractical. If you post your goods on here for sale, you are expected to realize that someone is going to have something to say(post) that you don't like. How is this any different from the obnoxious guy at your office that always inserts himself into your conversation, trying to convince you how he is right on every topic? While you might not like it, you deal with it, and move on.

Is it uncalled for in some instances? Probably, but this is an open forum. Until the moderators say differently, you are free to post your classified ads elsewhere where comments are not permitted.

I know we are all guilty of taking ourselves a little too seriously at times, and this seems to be no exception. Lighten up everyone, and go ride your bikes.

I'm all for that until it's the head moderator that's joining in the critical rant.

[Louis]

If you post your goods on here for sale, you are expected to realize that someone is going to have something to say(post) that you don't like.

No, one does not have to "expect" that others are not going to treat you decently. One should expect civil behaviour, and if you do not get it you can request that folks behave differently. You're implying that it's OK for anarchy to be the status-quo but I don't think many would want that around here.

[Marcusaurelius]

No, one does not have to "expect" that others are not going to treat you decently. One should expect civil behaviour, and if you do not get it you can request that folks behave differently. You're implying that it's OK for anarchy to be the status-quo but I don't think many would want that around here.


Hmm, well I'm not sure there's anything wrong with a little anarchy in fact I think it can be a good thing. Too many rules, too many laws and the burden of political correctness just doesn't seem the right way to go.

[Louis]

Too many rules, too many laws and the burden of political correctness just doesn't seem the right way to go.

This forum has bent over backwards to accomodate a variety of points of view, some very critical of Serotta. Compare the oversight here to the other places we know well and you'll know what I mean.

[rugbysecondrow]

Hmm, well I'm not sure there's anything wrong with a little anarchy in fact I think it can be a good thing. Too many rules, too many laws and the burden of political correctness just doesn't seem the right way to go.


Where does all this talk about rules come from? People should act respectful of one another regardless of the rules. Is that so hard? Why are people arguing that they should be allowed to be disrespectful to one another? That makes no sense.

[jmc22]

Perhaps the Forum mods should consider the Weight Weenies model - that is, no comments permitted on For Sale posts.

I totally agree with LegendRider here - if your selling something on E-bay, Craigslist, roadbikereview.com, etc - there are no comments allowed, good - bad or otherwise. I think the classified section should be limited to the original post & not any comments.

If you are looking to buy something, do your own homework, research, know what you're willing to spend for the item based on its reported condition and what its worth TO YOU, if you are the buyer and think it's over-priced, then you move on or wait, if you are the seller and it doesn't sell, you then have the option to relist it at a lower price or not relist it.

In my opinion, I think that there are more vultures hanging out here on the Serotta site than on E-bay, most of the comments being posted usually bash the item saying (they) think it's overpriced, I think there are thoes here that may actually want the item and think if they bash it hard/long enough, the seller will get rid of it because of what "the others say"...just for this that reason alone, I refuse to list anything here anymore and will only list it on E-bay where there is an open bidding process without comments made by others.

My personal example of this is a Serotta frame I tried to sell here on the Serotta forum - the so call "Serotta experts" here said it was over-priced and the highest offer I got was $1,000.00...I sold it on E-bay for almost $3,000.00...for me, I'm glad I didn't listen to these "Experts" :no:

[dekindy]

I find the classified section awesome. Sellers are highly reputable and the merchandise is of the highest quality. I really cannot ask for anything more.

I really have to hustle getting payment for my purchases made or the sellers will have the merchandise shipped before I get my check in the mail. More than once merchandise has been delivered before the seller received the check, never mind waiting for it to clear. I am good for it but it is downright embarrassing and makes me realize how cynical I have become. Prior to doing transactions here I would have never considered shipping an item before a buyer's check cleared the bank.

No complaints, here.

Well, maybe one. I am going to have to start ignoring some sellers. Take Dave Thompson for instance. I have discovered two things. He rides the same size bike as me. He has also been selling bikes that it takes every ounce of my willpower not to buy because I know they will fit perfectly and have been expertly designed. It is getting so bad that I have considered putting him on my ignore list but I want to miss his knowledgeable comments! Thankfully my startup business is not generating income yet and I am not going to ask my wife, who is supporting the family, permission to begin building a multi-bike stable. Once the business starts rolling though I might have to start using the ignore list! Can I limit the restriction to just the classified? Don't laugh, this could rapidly turn into an addiction!

So if I have any problem with the classified ads it is that I use them too much.

[rugbysecondrow]

In my opinion, I think that there are more vultures hanging out here on the Serotta site than on E-bay, most of the comments being posted usually bash the item saying (they) think it's overpriced, I think there are thoes here that may actually want the item and think if they bash it hard/long enough, the seller will get rid of it because of what "the others say"...just for this that reason alone, I refuse to list anything here anymore and will only list it on E-bay where there is an open bidding process without comments made by others.


:rolleyes:

[csm]

ok. but does anyone want to buy a nib dura aced hubbed mavic wheel?
I got a few of them.....$200 each and you don't get skewers.

[rounder]

I have bought a few things off ebay. All in all, i am a happy camper. I built a bike with frame and parts off ebay. Most transactions went well...a few did not. It was all business. I hoped to buy at less than retail on each transaction.

Here...it is more like being with friends...or at least folks that you know. I have bought a few things and each time it was a good experience. I am getting ready to sell a few things and hope to provide equal treatment.

Point is...anything i buy or sell here is with (for me) the understanding that i treat everyone here as my friends. I want them to treat me with with respect when i buy stuff and, also i will treat them with respect when i sell stuff. I don't want to be hustled when i buy stuff and i will not hustle when i sell stuff. Along with that, i think it is ok for others to post their own comments on things for sale, so long as they are being respectful to others here.

[Elefantino]

It's simple:

Ignore snarky comments from anyone with fewer than, oh, about 3,000 posts.

Comments from those with more than 3,000 posts should be considered biblical.

Comments about posts, particularly ti posts, should be banned, regardless of how many posts the poster has, because we are all tired of posts about posts.

The moral is this: If you don't like selling here, don't sell here. If you do, do. And take most comments with a mine of salt.

Except this one.

[paczki]

Comments about posts, particularly ti posts, should be banned, regardless of how many posts the poster has, because we are all tired of posts about posts.


I like Ti's posts. Are you telling me I can't post on his posts because you have more posts than I do?

[Kirk007]

If you post your goods on here for sale, you are expected to realize that someone is going to have something to say(post) that you don't like.

Used to be that this forum represented exactly the opposite of this statement, which may be the reason that some are rather testy . The good old days were just that.

[JeffS]

The forum would benefit from more active moderation of the classifieds.

Behavior here is contrary to most every classified forum on the internet. Common moderation practices have arisen for a reason, because it benefits the forum as a whole.

[Louis]

Ignore snarky comments from anyone with fewer than, oh, about 3,000 posts.

Clearly anyone with at least half a brain would set the bar at 5150 posts. :p

[Ahneida Ride]

Clearly anyone with at least half a brain would set the bar at 5150 posts. :p

I applied for a Fullbright and was awarded a Halfbright ...
How many posts do i have?

[William]

Hmmm, how many years has the classifieds here been running?

Most here would agree (sans a few snarky comments) it's one of the best classified sections on the net in terms of honesty and trust.

How many good transactions have there been vs. ones where someone posted something negative? I'm sure they are out weighed to some ratio close to 99 - 1. (Yes, I know it sucks to be the recipient of that one negative post but if it's a good product, someone will buy it regardless)

People, exercise common decency and respect. A few bumps will post negative comments but in the grand scheme of things it's next to nothing.

It's worked fine, it's still working fine, and it will work fine into the future.


My $.02
William

[spamjoshua]

We have witnessed instances of some folks knowingly trying to take advantage of others. We have seen personal attacks. We have seen posts of items for sale usurped by conversations best had elsewhere. We have seen the unseemly behavior the net is infamous for.

But...

I believe we are generally better for the ability to add comments. I think the classified are best managed by helpful/valid/healthy contributions, and not silence.

I am very glad this community has members and moderators that use comments to protect both buyers and sellers.

This forum is not an easily measurable meritocracy. For new folks, input from the community may provide the best short term way to interpret value: of items, of sellers, of comments.

Lastly, I do not think that requests for "market value" are unfair.

I can respect the reasons people prefer to see those posts on ebay, and I also know that I would prefer to see them here. I pay too much for rare items at times because pretty, and hand craftsmanship, and the shiny bits that complete a build, make me happy.

Some prices are garish, extravagant, borderline insane... but I do not think we can fairly claim that we are here for the pricing of purely utilitarian goods. Market value is not "wrong" it is just one measure of popular opinion, whether unpopular here or not.

I thank all who have added both kind words and corrections to my posts.

I am ashamed for some of what I have seen, but I too simply send PM's directly to those involved.

Thanks for caring folks.

Joshua

[ckamp]

I enjoy reading the classifieds (as well as making a few purchases :) ). As a brand new upcoming avid cyclist :rolleyes:... I learn a lot from the positive and bickering comments in relation to: price, common issues with an item, recalls, and descriptions of how things fit or feel etc.. Some of the posts actually act as a review after everyone has put in their two cents or a seller has given a great description.

I am new so I have not tried to sell a lot, but I would understand the frustration if people just comment all day or put you down rather then show interest in your item. On the other hand I also understand the frustration of not agreeing with the seller, I usually fall in this category because the seller has sold a good deal to someone else :)

I enjoy the classifieds.

[SpeedyChix]

This seems to becoming a more common occurrence. Piling on. I hesitate to even comment here. We're pages into this.

I have been both a buyer and a seller here. My first interaction on this forum was to sell a pristine Eddy to a member here, it was a transaction of $1k and shipping. Today, I'd be beat out of here for that being my first post. Had the bike listed elsewhere, and someone was kind enough to direct me here.

Since early '07, I've enjoyed coming here. Posted a few comments, have learned a great deal from some long time members. People have come, others have gone. I've bought and sold a number of things here, given some away, been the recipient in same manner. The level of trust is incredible.

Marketplace forces will determine what sells, at what the buyer and seller determine to be an agreeable price. At times, one might want to buy something that's more than they are willing or able to pay. An offer can be tendered by PM and accepted or not.

The public bashing and piling on within the classifieds is in poor taste. Would it occur if you were face to face with the person? Certain things do not communicate well w/in the written world of the forum. Voice inflection does not exist.

I appreciate the ability to post questions on classifieds, to have some on mine. Critiques? PM seems the politic way to communicate those. If the seller then wants to edit their FS item, they can.

It's a great resource to have this forum here and the classifieds are huge added bonus.

Think before you hit submit reply.
Make your ___ (insert appropriate formative mentor here) proud of you.

[ergott]

This Buy & Sell:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/10

is a great model for posting feedback on a transaction.

WW is a great model for eliminating replies. If you see a car in a parking-lot for sale, do you write messages an post them on the car? I think other people's opinions of what you are selling are not necessary. Many times, people post ill-informed replies about the value of something. You get just as much bad information from these replies and good ones from others.

It is up to the buyer to have all the information needed if they plan on purchasing something and leave feedback after the fact to inform others on the quality of the transaction. We are all adults here. Good communication between the buyer and seller is important and other people are just getting in the way of that.

[Rusty Luggs]

I’ve always thought that allowing comments is a completely bizarre feature of the Serotta classifieds.

To the list of inappropriate comments people have mentioned, I would add the “I’ll take it”, “Dibs” and similar posts – it is not up to a potential buyer to decide when a sale is made, it’s up to the SELLER. Just a way for a potential buyer to squelch the competition.

[DfCas]

I think that price opinions lobbed in from people not even interested in the bike are rude, intrusive, and inconsiderate. Some people sell things because they need the money.

I have never had negative responses about price on things I list, but I have seen it so much I think I'll request PM's here on out for price info.

Recently, there was a listing for a Concours ti at $1000 and someone commented they that they bought one much cheaper. The seller was then trashed.

I vote for no replies.

[paczki]

To the list of inappropriate comments people have mentioned, I would add the “I’ll take it”, “Dibs” and similar posts – it is not up to a potential buyer to decide when a sale is made, it’s up to the SELLER. Just a way for a potential buyer to squelch the competition.

Totally disagree. It's not Ebay, it's not about maximizing seller competition. If it was I wouldn't have sold some of the stuff here as cheap as I have here, and given other stuff away.

The rules of decorum and the trust are what makes it so valuable.

[OtayBW]

To the list of inappropriate comments people have mentioned, I would add [the] “I’ll take it”...
Let me get back to you on that one.... :rolleyes:

[sjbraun]

11.4

Are you bothered by the brief comments from two posters that questioned your aesthetic sense? If that's the source of your angst, then I think you're being way too sensitive. (Your post's title was sort of a challenge to others with its declaration that the bike set the standard for proper fixed gear appearance. The title was a joke, right?)
Or are you using your post as an example to raise the topic of comments on classifieds in general? If that's the case, I say discuss on. But to complain about pages of posts the way you did ("I have multiple pages with discussions about why the stem should be silver, or a different angle, or why the chainring should be a different size, or whatever.") when there were only two posts that suggested your parts choices were lees than ideal is a bit overblown.

Steve-who knows overblown quite well from personal use

[jmc22]

I believe that if you have a general question about something or want info about a bike part or frame, that is what the "General Forum" should be used for.

If you are trying to purchase or sell something, that is what the "Classified section" is for. If you have a spicific question about that item, then you should send the person a PM or email...Otherwise, I say please keep your comments to yourself and move on.

Be it 2 comments or 20 posted on a classifed item, it is still 2 or 20 to many!!!

Just my .02¢

[malcolm]

I've always liked the classifieds here. I think Dave Thompson's post is valid and interesting. I never sell here looking to make a profit, I see it more as passing along a deal to another cycling junkie, not that trying to make a buck is wrong, just not my approach. If I feel I need maximum return I go to ebay.

As far as posting comments, I don't care as long as they are not negative. Unless you know the person to be untrustworthy keep your mouth shut and let the market do its job. Comments such as good to do business with etc., should be welcomed. When folks ask for comments I still usually pm them answers.

No one here needs to police the prices, they will take care of themselves. I've posted frames for what I thought was a fair price and got not replies at that point I have to decide wether to lower the price or keep the frame simple as that.

FWIIW, I've been buying and selling here a long time and I've had one bad transaction that eventually was worked out. I often ship to people with lots of posts or that I feel I know or that someone here has vouched for before payment and I've never been burned and I think folks I've sold to have been happy with their items as well.

[slowandsteady]

...I never sell here looking to make a profit, I see it more as passing along a deal to another cycling junkie, not that trying to make a buck is wrong, just not my approach. If I feel I need maximum return I go to ebay.

As far as posting comments, I don't care as long as they are not negative. Unless you know the person to be untrustworthy keep your mouth shut and let the market do its job. Comments such as good to do business with etc., should be welcomed. When folks ask for comments I still usually pm them answers.

No one here needs to police the prices, they will take care of themselves. I've posted frames for what I thought was a fair price and got not replies at that point I have to decide wether to lower the price or keep the frame simple as that.

AMEN BRUTHA

[DHallerman]

Clearly anyone with at least half a brain would set the bar at 5150 posts. :p

Actually, it's those of us with fewer than 225 posts who have a fresh vision on this Forum.

Everyone else is just posting the same old titanium posts. :D

[Honey]

your dog is super cute!

[DHallerman]

your dog is super cute!

Not my dog, that's me. So, thanks!

You know the old saying: "On the Internet, they don't know if you're a dog"?

Well, that is old. Nowadays, one's doggish qualities are always known.

(Dang, I'm approaching my own 225-post limit for wise woofs.)

[SEABREEZE]

I Am All For A Seperate Feed Back Section To Comment On Your Last Classified Transaction. Positive Or Negative.

This Will Help You Decide If You Want To Deal With The Seller

[Mr. Squirrel]

Actually, it's those of us with fewer than 225 posts who have a fresh vision on this Forum.

Everyone else is just posting the same old titanium posts. :D


yes, tis true. the rest of you elders are just nuts. :)

mr. squirrel

[Sandy]

1. If your comments will help the seller, then post them.

2. If your comments will diminish the likelihood of a sale, then don't post them.

3. If you are not sure, then privately PM or email the seller the comments.


Simple Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

I'm all for that until it's the head moderator that's joining in the critical rant.

Sorry you feel that way,

You are entitled to your opinion as I am also. We try to keep the forum open for ALL views and opinions....so lets have that glass of wine, talk about cameras, and also the 84 Murray Olympic bike that SPOKES did a repair on three years ago and it is still hanging in his den.. :)

This is only bikes and we all love them. I am in Brooklyn at a wedding next Sunday, come on by and let me buy you a beer.


PETE

[LegendRider]

In the final analysis, my biggest concern is not running off 11.4. His guru-like knowledge of our sport is a tremendous asset to this forum.

[Pete Serotta]

In the final analysis, my biggest concern is not running off 11.4. His guru-like knowledge of our sport is a tremendous asset to this forum.

11,4 let us (me) know what we can do to say "sorry" thanks Pete

[jblande]

and the wheels he has put up here have made me wish I was willing to deal with tubulars.

[Walter]

Where is it written that is it wrong to announce an eBay auction on this site? Their is no duty to sell something on one site only.

I always get a kick out of the style and price police who want to tell others that their price is "too high" or that the bike would be "better" with a different stem, etc. It is what is is and it is priced at what the seller wants. If you do not like either...move on down the road.

[54ny77]

put me in the camp of making the classifieds into one post for the item (from the original poster), that's it, no follow up comments allowed.

some of the stuff i've seen on for sale threads is mind boggling. keyboard warriors run amok.

[gdw]

Assist the seller or keep quiet.

[93legendti]

Assist the seller or keep quiet.
Yes.

It's in all of our interests to make the Classifieds a place where people want to buy and sell products. Less is more.

[happycampyer]

In the final analysis, my biggest concern is not running off 11.4. His guru-like knowledge of our sport is a tremendous asset to this forum.It has been done before. Thankfully, Mr. Kirk and a few others are still around.

[fourflys]

Where is it written that is it wrong to announce an eBay auction on this site? Their is no duty to sell something on one site only.


That's just usually how it works on most forums I've been to...

As someone said above, most people on this site are cycling junkies and most just want to pass on stuff they don't use anymore... NOT make a huge profit.

As far as people trying to lo-ball the seller... that's the way the buying/selling game works... Not many people post their bottom dollar price to start with... I do agree that this negotiating/price commenting should be done via PM though...

The ebay post I have the most issues with are the one that say "I have xxxx for sale in an auction, here is the addy..." Those are the one that shouldn't be allowed...

Wish it wasn't too dark to go for a ride... :)

[jmc22]

That's just usually how it works on most forums I've been to...

As someone said above, most people on this site are cycling junkies and most just want to pass on stuff they don't use anymore... NOT make a huge profit.

As far as people trying to lo-ball the seller... that's the way the buying/selling game works... Not many people post their bottom dollar price to start with... I do agree that this negotiating/price commenting should be done via PM though...

The ebay post I have the most issues with are the one that say "I have xxxx for sale in an auction, here is the addy..." Those are the one that shouldn't be allowed...

Wish it wasn't too dark to go for a ride... :)

By using the word "profit" I wonder if the person saying that meant that someone is out to sell their item for more than what they purchased it for?.. that is the only way I know to make a profit on a sale...

There is nothing wrong with trying to low-ball a Seller so long as it's done one-on-one, I think once someone posts their opinion online for all to see, that could be considered a slander type remark - as I said before, I don't think comments for an item for sale warrents opinions/comments - good or bad.

I don't see anything wrong with placing an item for sale on ebay and advertising it on this forum, afterall, the Seller is trying to sell something and if someone is interested on this forum in purchasing it, then the Seller can always pull it off ebay and sell it to the interested Buyer - thus selling it to someone with a common interest (Serotta bikes) at a price maybe a little less than what they were seeking on ebay because of the fees they may be saving. Other than a Serotta spicific item, a seatpost is a seatpost, a stem is a stem, Campy is Campy, Sram is Sram & ebay may have a higher percentage of interested buyers.