LeMond vs. Trek

[fiamme red]

For anyone who isn't completely sick of reading about LeMond's battles with Trek and Armstrong, this article seems to be a good summary of the conflict.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2009/11/07/2009-11-07_greg_lemonds_lawsuit_against_trek.html

[Charles M]

So much blather and so many people on both sides...

I really hope something fair comes from the litigation.


Who could ask for more than that without bias?

[Keith A]

I know this is a bit of old news, but it looks like Lemond has found suing people to be profitable. Check out this story that occurred about a year ago...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-15-3268195309_x.htm

[veloduffer]

I know this is a bit of old news, but it looks like Lemond has found suing people to be profitable. Check out this story that occurred about a year ago...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-15-3268195309_x.htm

I wouldn't read much into this, more complicated than this short story. Yellowstone, which filed for bankruptcy this year, was real estate venture complicated by a divorce between the principals. Yellowstone is a highly exclusive private ski resort - makes Augusta National golf like a municipal golf course - and it was highly leveraged.

I think Lemond got into trouble by airing his doubts publicly and without hard evidence, and thus complicated his business with Trek who now had the more profitable spokesperson in the form of Lance.

Both Lance and Lemond have big egos, so it makes any reconciliation that much more difficult. Unfortunately for Greg, Lance is the bigger draw these days.

From a non-cycling point of view and at this point in time, hurting Lance does more harm to the cancer cause than anything else. The world would be poorer for it.

[Lifelover]

LeMond is an idiot!

[JMerring]

Yellowstone is a highly exclusive private ski resort - makes Augusta National golf like a municipal golf course - and it was highly leveraged.

Not quite. With enough $$, anyone could buy into Yellowstone; no amount of $$ can buy anyone a membership at ANGC.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Both Lance and Lemond have big egos, so it makes any reconciliation that much more difficult. Unfortunately for Greg, Lance is the bigger draw these days.

What a soap opera! :eek:

BBD

[xjoex]

LeMond is crazy as a **** house rat.

-Joe

[Pete Serotta]

:argue:

I know this is a bit of old news, but it looks like Lemond has found suing people to be profitable. Check out this story that occurred about a year ago...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-15-3268195309_x.htm

[csm]

LeMond is crazy as a **** house rat.

-Joe
I've always wondered where this turn of phrase came from.

[GregL]

From the article:

""This is not just a contract dispute," LeMond counters. "It's about defending myself from people that are out to destroy everything I've done in cycling… I want to hold John Burke accountable. I want to hold Lance Armstrong accountable."

I admire what LeMond accomplished on the bike. But everytime he has opened his mouth in the past ten years, he has made himself look like an idiot. If his goal was to bring attention to doping in cycling and (hopefully) help solve the problem, he has failed miserably. All people will remember is the whining messenger.

[Big Dan]

Go Greg....

[Walter]

I know this is a bit of old news, but it looks like Lemond has found suing people to be profitable. Check out this story that occurred about a year ago...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-15-3268195309_x.htm


I do not understand why some folks think ill of GL because he goes after folks that he believes have stolen $$$ from him or owe it to him.

He sued a company to which he had licensed his name because they did not pay him according to the terms of the contract. He won. They paid. Welcome to the world of business.

In the housing development case, big money was invested by many folks, money was not being spent on the project as apparently the agreement required, and there were allegations the $$$ was being siponed off. GL, and a number of investors not in his family, sued before everything went in the toilet and it was resolved favorably. What are the investors supposed to do if not protect their money and enforce their agreement?

None of these things should be a bother to folks.

[jlwdm]

I know this is a bit of old news, but it looks like Lemond has found suing people to be profitable. Check out this story that occurred about a year ago...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-15-3268195309_x.htm

Probably not profitable. Who knows what Lemond and the others invested in the first place but they only received $8 million before the bankruptcy. Don't know if they got anything out of bankruptcy.


Overall probably not profitable.

Jeff

[fiamme red]

From the article:

""This is not just a contract dispute," LeMond counters. "It's about defending myself from people that are out to destroy everything I've done in cycling… I want to hold John Burke accountable. I want to hold Lance Armstrong accountable."

I admire what LeMond accomplished on the bike. But everytime he has opened his mouth in the past ten years, he has made himself look like an idiot. If his goal was to bring attention to doping in cycling and (hopefully) help solve the problem, he has failed miserably. All people will remember is the whining messenger.He doesn't realize that it's not Burke and Armstrong who are destroying his reputation, he's doing it himself.

For all his chattiness, there is an air of caution, and as the conversation moves to LeMond's ongoing legal battles, he turns a suspicious eye on diners at adjacent tables, and then asks for extra assurances he's not being taped.It's sad that he can't go anywhere without suspecting that the LANCE-mafia are watching every move of his, trying to destroy him. And truthfully, how many non-cyclists (i.e., the vast majority of the population) would recognize LeMond in a restaurant? His days of celebrity are past.

[Elefantino]

I certainly admire LeMond's nearly-30-year marriage more than I admire Lance's incessant oedipal conquests.

[buck-50]

I gotta wonder about his obsession with doping in the post-LeMond cycling era...

Does he believe there was no doping when he rode or does he not consider the stuff that was done when he was riding and before to be doping?

[McQueen]

Just out of curiousity, how many of you who have negative feelings towards LeMond during, say, the last 5 years or so, actually accept the possibility that Lance used PED's during his TDF wins??

I think too many people have such a strong need to believe Lance raced clean, that they are more than willing to dismiss anyone who might raise doubts about Lance. Who knows. Two sides to every story.

Not saying one's wrong or one's right, but I can understand the psychology that people might hate on anyone who casts doubts on their hero.

I can't remember the exact sequence of events, but I remember wanting to believe that Landis was innocent, and Lemond was testifying against him, and not feeling too much love towards Lemond. But then once the news broke about the blackmail, and we saw who Landis really was, I had a different impression about LeMond, and questioned my own doubts about Lemonds intentions early on in that case.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . in my experience of what I've seen in the media from them both, Lemond has always struck me as very forthright and sincere, but unsophisticated in his PR and the image he has sought to create of himself through the media. Stories I read that contain interviews with him invariably reference the author meeting Lemond at his home, at a restaurant, etc. I don't believe I've ever seen any mention of an agent or PR "handler" being present. His comments strike me that way, too. He tends to forthrightly say what he really feels--and that can be a recipe for reputational suicide in today's media.

Lance, OTOH, seems to understand much better how to control his image in the popular press. Or at least he has the money and the smarts to hire the best in PR and marketing representation to do it for him and that's what he does. His public image is obviously carefully crafted and rigidly controlled. I've seen many stories that talk about his handlers and agents (the OP's link talks about this very subject) and I strongly doubt any journalist is ever going to get an interview with him in circumstances that are not carefully controlled. Greg will meet you with his wife in a local restaurant. Lance? No way.

Even in the stories that don't reference his handlers, if you pay attention to the names involved you can see that he--or his handlers--very carefully control things. Recently there was a story in (I think--can't find that issue here at home) Velo News--a story about Lance's "inner circle" with a selection of B+W pics from various Lance situations--meetings, a wind tunnel, etc. The photographs were by Elizabeth Kreutz. Do a little research and you will find that Elizabeth Kreutz doesn't work for Velo News. She is Armstrong's "personal photographer." She works for Lance.

There's no way you're going to see any kind of photos that don't get approval from that "inner circle." It's celebrity journalism, not objective journalism. But any media outlet that wants access to Lance is most likely forced to toe their line or the access doesn't happen. It's a finely honed marketing and publicity machine.

Given those circumstances, I've thought for quite some time that the only real thing Lemond has done to be labeled as "crazy as a **** house rat" is to be honest and speak his mind. It's a sad commentary on our times that being honest and forthright has no value. But that seems to be how it is, and the differences between the approaches of Armstrong and Lemond paint that picture in stark terms.

BBD

[GregL]

Just out of curiousity, how many of you who have negative feelings towards LeMond during, say, the last 5 years or so, actually accept the possibility that Lance used PED's during his TDF wins??

I can only speak for myself in saying that I completely accept the possibility that Lance (and nearly every other rider in the pro peloton) used PEDs. To think otherwise would be completely unrealistic. In fact, I would say that it's not a possibility, but a probability!

The issue is not LeMond's message but rather his ineffective delivery. He has squandered his opportunity by repeatedly placing his Sidis in his mouth. He comes across as a whining, petulant adolescent.

[54ny77]

Having recently seen LeMond at a local charity event (see my review in the "Events" section), you hit the nail on the head.

. . . in my experience of what I've seen in the media from them both, Lemond has always struck me as very forthright and sincere, but unsophisticated in his PR and the image he has sought to create of himself through the media. Stories I read that contain interviews with him invariably reference the author meeting Lemond at his home, at a restaurant, etc. I don't believe I've ever seen any mention of an agent or PR "handler" being present. His comments strike me that way, too. He tends to forthrightly say what he really feels--and that can be a recipe for reputational suicide in today's media.

Lance, OTOH, seems to understand much better how to control his image in the popular press. Or at least he has the money and the smarts to hire the best in PR and marketing representation to do it for him and that's what he does. His public image is obviously carefully crafted and rigidly controlled. I've seen many stories that talk about his handlers and agents (the OP's link talks about this very subject) and I strongly doubt any journalist is ever going to get an interview with him in circumstances that are not carefully controlled. Greg will meet you with his wife in a local restaurant. Lance? No way.

Even in the stories that don't reference his handlers, if you pay attention to the names involved you can see that he--or his handlers--very carefully control things. Recently there was a story in (I think--can't find that issue here at home) Velo News--a story about Lance's "inner circle" with a selection of B+W pics from various Lance situations--meetings, a wind tunnel, etc. The photographs were by Elizabeth Kreutz. Do a little research and you will find that Elizabeth Kreutz doesn't work for Velo News. She is Armstrong's "personal photographer." She works for Lance.

There's no way you're going to see any kind of photos that don't get approval from that "inner circle." It's celebrity journalism, not objective journalism. But any media outlet that wants access to Lance is most likely forced to toe their line or the access doesn't happen. It's a finely honed marketing and publicity machine.

Given those circumstances, I've thought for quite some time that the only real thing Lemond has done to be labeled as "crazy as a **** house rat" is to be honest and speak his mind. It's a sad commentary on our times that being honest and forthright has no value. But that seems to be how it is, and the differences between the approaches of Armstrong and Lemond paint that picture in stark terms.

BBD

[Lifelover]

I can only speak for myself in saying that I completely accept the possibility that Lance (and nearly every other rider in the pro peloton) used PEDs. To think otherwise would be completely unrealistic. In fact, I would say that it's not a possibility, but a probability!

The issue is not LeMond's message but rather his ineffective delivery. He has squandered his opportunity by repeatedly placing his Sidis in his mouth. He comes across as a whining, petulant adolescent.


+1 Could not have said it better!

It maybe very likely that everything Greg is saying is true. He just needs to stick to battles he can win.

[GregL]

It maybe very likely that everything Greg is saying is true. He just to stick to battles he can win.

Sadly, I think Greg LeMond could have contributed to winning this battle if he had fought more effectively. To me, that's the real shame.

[mosca]

The sad thing is that LeMond is probably right about everything. However, Lance Inc. has his cancer foundation and his extremely bankable name that basically make him untouchable. Not going to end well for Greg, I fear.

[fiamme red]

I wonder what Gary Klein thinks about all this, since Trek has discontinued his line too.

[jbrainin]

I've come to believe that both LA and GL are basically assholes. Lance proved it beyond a reasonable doubt in the TdF, while Greg proves it by idiotic actions such as going to a LA news conference and basically publicly accosting him with whatever accusation he wishes to hurl at the moment.

I have come to believe that LA has doped during his career and may well have done so while winning the TdF. I've also come to believe that there has been such rampant doping in the peloton for at least the past 40 years that nobody is above suspicion, including Lemond.

I also believe that if I never have to hear anything about squabbles between these two guys, the world will be a marginally better place.

[clunk]

BBDave is right on on this. Great reading between the lines.

[Marcusaurelius]

Well you have the wacko Lance haters who accuse the guy of everything no matter how ridiculous it is and then you have others who believe Lemond can do no wrong.

I admit to liking Lance but I'm not sure about Lemond. I've grown weary of Lemond's conspiracy fables that always try to bring others down so he can prop himself up higher.

[Hawker]

Well stated Bumblebeedave. I believe Greg is well intentioned but has said and done some things that have hurt his cause.

[goldyjackson]

+ 100 on BBD's post. Notice that ALL of the criticism of GL follows along the narrative that Lance puts out there against Greg.

- He's jealous
- He doped himself
- He's crazy

It speaks to the power of marketing. People wouldn't pay_millions_of dollars if it didn't work, now would they.

You Greg haters are just plain wrong, imho. I hope you sleep well at night, because you've been fooled. Get your money back from Lance.

The truth is out there. Greg is one of the most athletically gifted cyclists to have ever been tested. Lance was on the best program that money could buy. there's no way to know how different the late 80s would have been had EPO have been there, but it wasn't. I don't judge Lance for doping. I judge him for being a d-bag and getting all holier than thou about the whole thing. Have fun in Texas when he's elected to something.

Rant over.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . not necessarily after his cancer battle, but before when it has become pretty apparent that almost everybody in the peloton did who achieved any notable results. You had to or you couldn't compete. It was that simple. It's not because he was evil. It's just what everyone did. It was a different era, even though it was only 15 or so years ago. Who at that time imagined that perceptions would change so much in the intervening years?

But he's in the incredibly awkward position of having denied it so many times for so long that he no longer has the option of coming clean without destroying his own reputation and the central role that reputation plays in raising funds for the LA foundation. It won't make any difference if he confesses but adds that he didn't do it for his TdF victories. All the public will hear is that HE DID IT and his rep will be toast. He'd be instantly crucified in the court of public opinion and Livestrong donations would dry up overnight.

Riis, Zabel, even Frankie Andreux . . . They could all fess' up and move on because they haven't stood on a soapbox like Lance and loudly denied it for so many years. So far Lance has been able to use the best lawyers and handlers money can buy to either buy off or--more frequently--intimidate accusers into silence.

But he's not a dummy. He's got to know that sooner or later some evidence will come out that can't be refuted or from a source that can't be bought off or intimidated and his legacy as some sort of greatest champion will be doomed. It might be years from now after he dies. Or it might be next week. I wonder what it feels like to have to live with that in the back of your mind?

BBD

[rustychisel]

. . . I wonder what it feels like to have to live with that in the back of your mind?

BBD



I can't help feeling that he's faced and won a bigger battle than that, in his mind.

Speaking of psychology, I wonder at LeMonds statements and think back to that old saying "he who is without sin…". GL certainly casts a few stones (ie acts as though he is without sin)…

Notwithstanding, I still think he's quite a bit crazy.

[54ny77]

Methinks he could give a rats ass.

I wonder what it feels like to have to live with that in the back of your mind?

BBD

[steelrider]

I certainly admire LeMond's nearly-30-year marriage more than I admire Lance's incessant oedipal conquests.

+1!

[dd74]

From the DN Article: "And for LeMond, the doping issue isn't just about cheating: it's about life and death. In his complaint, LeMond says there have been over 100 deaths since 1990 from suspected complications involving performance-enhancing drugs."

100 deaths in cycling or in pro sports?

I feel sorry for the Trek CEO, John Burke, who is in the middle of this malaise. It just goes to show you, like the Dallas Cowboys with Tony and Terrell, or the L.A. Lakers with Kobe and Shaq, it seems very rare when two superstars play well together on the same team.

[William]

Serenity now.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/05/18/lemond_wideweb__470x387,0.jpg

Serenity now?

http://www.pedalmag.com/images/pedal/46180b5327110Hinn%20LeMond%20DSC00475.2.jpg

Serenity now!!!!

http://www.bicycle.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/lemond-armstrong.jpg

Ser-en-it-y now.

http://wcsnblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/20070518ziamodabber.jpg

Serenity? Now?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wb8bAl1P-N0/SOD1yicKSSI/AAAAAAAADNg/xHKuuGO6G0Q/s400/lemond+metallica.bmp

Serenitynow!!!

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/07/29/sports/29cheat.4.190.jpg

Serenity……………………………………………NOW!!!!

http://ps201blog.typepad.com/mickey_mantles_liver/images/jaa4.jpg

When did Richard Petty start riding???????

http://www.ritcheylogic.com/img/5404_TR_GL_July08.JPG





William :) ;)

[johnnymossville]

I'm not even sure what field of study it would be, but a college course on Lemondism and all his antics would be pretty interesting.

[goldyjackson]

From the DN Article: "And for LeMond, the doping issue isn't just about cheating: it's about life and death. In his complaint, LeMond says there have been over 100 deaths since 1990 from suspected complications involving performance-enhancing drugs."

100 deaths in cycling or in pro sports?

I feel sorry for the Trek CEO, John Burke, who is in the middle of this malaise. It just goes to show you, like the Dallas Cowboys with Tony and Terrell, or the L.A. Lakers with Kobe and Shaq, it seems very rare when two superstars play well together on the same team.

This is so not related to two egos getting along, as you suggest. It is a whistleblower and the head of the mob going at it. Read the article. Trek sold 6 lemond bikes in France in 5 years. How many Trek bikes did they sell??? He was being punished for telling the truth.

William's photo essay is quite funny, btw.

[fiamme red]

Thanks for the laugh, William. :D

Interesting that LeMond almost always seems to wear the same tie. :)

Here's a picture of him from yesterday:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lemond-and-trek-to-consider-settlement

http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/news/may07/may18news3/Was894761_600.jpg

[jbrainin]

Read the article. Trek sold 6 lemond bikes in France in 5 years. How many Trek bikes did they sell???

When I was at the Étape du Tour this past July, I saw lots of different bikes among the 9500 doing the event. I saw a surprisingly large number of Treks but not one Lemond. (Considering that I started in with the first 500 riders and finished 4388, it's not like I didn't see a whole lot of bikes on the route.) Hell, I saw more IF Corvids then Lemonds!

[54ny77]

Blondestrong:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/0316_lance_women.jpg

Cradlestrong:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/lance-armstrong-and-ashley-olsen.jpg

Wedgiestrong:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/kate-hudson-lance-armstrong_palisad.jpg

[wc1934]

I like them both- 2 greats in 2 different eras - No one can dispute the fact that LeMond's career is also outstanding, yet people do not like him - why- not because he used drugs, but because he got into a psssing contest with Lance, complaining about ped's - he all but accused lance - that's bad for business - it's all about the benjamins
ps didn't Greg ride a rebadged serotta in the tour?

[harryschwartzma]

Also, Lemond would never put Sidis in his mouth. More like Brancale or Carnac.

And he rode Della Santas, I believe.

[dd74]

This is so not related to two egos getting along, as you suggest. It is a whistleblower and the head of the mob going at it. Read the article. Trek sold 6 lemond bikes in France in 5 years. How many Trek bikes did they sell??? He was being punished for telling the truth.
That's all fine and good, but at the end of the day, it's about personalities that have initiated what you suggest. GL shorts LA by 4 TDFs, and GL, knowing he may have been a better all around rider in his day, is steamed LA gets the applause and notoriety that he never did.

Pushing LeMonds in France is weak sauce, even if he speaks French and has a French last name. I mean, come on: a French-made Look or Time vs. an Asian built LeMond? I'd like to see how many Treks sold in France at that time.

As is, Trek LeMonds were pushed plenty hard in the U.S. as you can see on EBAY or CL via those for sale used.

Doping? And LeMond hasn't?

Punished for telling the truth? Well how Pollyanna. IMO GL should have STFU, and allowed his residuals to roll in. He has a history of contentious business dealings - he even fired his own dad from a venture both had together. But, with Trek, he killed the fatted cow, and that's that. Too bad, as LeMonds weren't at all bad bicycles.

Anyway, so given that, do you still believe all this is about GL being a good guy and not an envious guy? I don't buy it. I think it's about two superstars with ego issues.

[dd74]

He rode everything but a Trek...

[goldyjackson]

That's all fine and good, but at the end of the day, it's about personalities that have initiated what you suggest. GL shorts LA by 4 TDFs, and GL, knowing he may have been a better all around rider in his day, is steamed LA gets the applause and notoriety that he never did.

Pushing LeMonds in France is weak sauce, even if he speaks French and has a French last name. I mean, come on: a French-made Look or Time vs. an Asian built LeMond? I'd like to see how many Treks sold in France at that time.

As is, Trek LeMonds were pushed plenty hard in the U.S. as you can see on EBAY or CL via those for sale used.

Doping? And LeMond hasn't?

Punished for telling the truth? Well how Pollyanna. IMO GL should have STFU, and allowed his residuals to roll in. He has a history of contentious business dealings - he even fired his own dad from a venture both had together. But, with Trek, he killed the fatted cow, and that's that. Too bad, as LeMonds weren't at all bad bicycles.

Anyway, so given that, do you still believe all this is about GL being a good guy and not an envious guy? I don't buy it. I think it's about two superstars with ego issues.

Read my first post. You made all three points I was trying to make. You're just parroting what Lance wants you to think. MY personal belief about LeMond? No I don't think he did, but that's just me. He has the single highest VO2 max ever tested in a cyclist, which would be consistent with his results. Lance's VO2 was very good, certainly, (82 vs 92) but nowhere near LeMond's level, and didn't in any way suggest he could go 7 years of tour riding without a single bad day. I think Lance was simply on better stuff than all of the other guys who were on stuff. In the end, though, I can't know for sure. I do know that LeMond's ego has nothing to do with whether Lance is a d-bag.

[veloduffer]

Read my first post. You made all three points I was trying to make. You're just parroting what Lance wants you to think. MY personal belief about LeMond? No I don't think he did, but that's just me. He has the single highest VO2 max ever tested in a cyclist, which would be consistent with his results. Lance's VO2 was very good, certainly, (82 vs 92) but nowhere near LeMond's level, and didn't in any way suggest he could go 7 years of tour riding without a single bad day. I think Lance was simply on better stuff than all of the other guys who were on stuff. In the end, though, I can't know for sure. I do know that LeMond's ego has nothing to do with whether Lance is a d-bag.

I think Armstrong and Lemond are generally freaks of nature. Armstrong is an incredible endurance athlete. His vital statistics include a resting heart rate of 32 to 34 bpm, a VO2max of 83.8ml/kg/min, and a lactate threshold heart-rate of 178 bpm. A handful of athletes in history have comparable fitness levels, including the marathon runner Matt Carpenter and cyclists Greg LeMond and Miguel Indurain. Among male endurance athletes you might expect to see average VO2max values of 70ml/kg/min.

I don't think Lance doped - he always had the engine and had several things that helped him: significant weight loss, much improved training and pedaling techniques, better preparation and alot of attitude. And lot of winning is just sheer determination to suffer more than the other guy.

If he had doped all those years, he would have been caught - it's become a national priority for France. And then, to come back this year and give the French another shot at finding him guilty with more improved testing techniques, it seems incredulous he could escape.

Yes Lance's personality and attitude can be a real put-off (to put it mildly) but it's part of what made him a winner. Besides, I don't think he's asking us to be his friend, he only wants respect for what he's accomplished.

[dd74]

Read my first post. You made all three points I was trying to make. You're just parroting what Lance wants you to think. MY personal belief about LeMond? No I don't think he did, but that's just me. He has the single highest VO2 max ever tested in a cyclist, which would be consistent with his results. Lance's VO2 was very good, certainly, (82 vs 92) but nowhere near LeMond's level, and didn't in any way suggest he could go 7 years of tour riding without a single bad day. I think Lance was simply on better stuff than all of the other guys who were on stuff. In the end, though, I can't know for sure. I do know that LeMond's ego has nothing to do with whether Lance is a d-bag.
Eh! Who knows? I think it was the History Channel or Biography that mentioned the one main reason LeMond retired was because he was on the caboose end of the rise in doping; he couldn't understand why these guys were suddenly so much faster.

Meanwhile, some say LA's body reconstruction - post cancer - is attributed to his success.

It's cycling: the hot dog of sports. (You don't necessarily want to know what goes into it).

[StephenCL]

My biggest beef is that all this banter hurts our sport. It makes it harder for corporations to justify sponsorship dollars, harder for local races to find local support, and harder for us as riders to defend our sport.

I like both GL and Lance. I agree that GL has good arguments for going after Trek...however, a review of his post tour life reveals that he has probably started more law suits than rides out of his driveway on a bike.

This is sad. It is also an indication that his is very unhappy and at unrest with himself and his business dealings.

As far as the doping is concerned, these riders live on a very gray line....they are all on drugs, just some not on banned substances. They don't complete the tour on OJ and Grapenuts. Never have, never will.

In the end, I think Trek did GL a lot of great favors through a real tough time in road cycling and I think GL was a great ambassador for Trek.

It is time to move on....

[I Want Sachs?]

Interesting Kristin Armstrong's lawyer asked her not to answer a couple of simple questions such as did she see Lance dope, or did she drive with Andreau and Armstrong to meet with Dr. Ferrari etc. If she truly has not seen it/done it, and answers it honestly, why would answering it complicate the case? The choice to not answer these questions certainly makes for good speculation/drama.

Perhaps all of this is good for the sport, since fans like drama. Without the plots/stories in the wrestling business, the acting in the ring is just poor acting, but paired with the interviews and accusations, WWF is making tons of money.

How many of you did not buy the Serotta or Pegoretti because you think Lance and Lemond are pointing fingers at each other? I don't think many people would spend more dollars on bicycle because Lance and Lemond are clean and get along. However, these stories earn top dollars for cycling magazines, people magazine etc, while bring more exposure to non-cycling people to these names, and make cycling actually more in the consciousness.

Afterall, I have not heard of doping among paragliders, and do not know of any stars. However, if I read something about an infamous doping accusation regarding a star paraglider, I actually might learn a little more about the sport and who knows whether I might actually pay attention. (Sorry, no offense to the paragliders. :) )

[54ny77]

I heard there's rampant doping within the music industry. Apparently, some have been known to perform better under the influence. :beer:

[jbrainin]

Forget GL/LA here, what about GL more or less accusing Contador of doping during this last TdF? The VO2 max number he stated was impossible to attain (96ml/kg?) was remarkably close to the actual highest recorded VO2 max number (92 ml/kg, IIRC?) recorded by a cyclist back in the day. That cyclist, Greg Lemond. I guess he's the only one ever capable of such performance and anyone who can approach that must be a doper. :rolleyes:

[93legendti]

Read my first post. You made all three points I was trying to make. You're just parroting what Lance wants you to think. MY personal belief about LeMond? No I don't think he did, but that's just me. He has the single highest VO2 max ever tested in a cyclist, which would be consistent with his results. Lance's VO2 was very good, certainly, (82 vs 92) but nowhere near LeMond's level, and didn't in any way suggest he could go 7 years of tour riding without a single bad day. I think Lance was simply on better stuff than all of the other guys who were on stuff. In the end, though, I can't know for sure. I do know that LeMond's ego has nothing to do with whether Lance is a d-bag.

VO2 max alone doesn't make a champion or determine races. Roy Knickman can attest to that. Power to weight ratio, body fat, tactics, efficiency, etc. also play a part.

If VO2 max was all that mattered, they wouldn't need to hold the race. FWIW, I always thought Lance post-cancer was leaner than Lemond was in '89-90.

[gemship]

There is a interesting speech on Youtube by Lemond. Warning it's long but nice to hear and study Lemond say much of what is in the press in regards to Trek,LA and cycling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDy5NLVkliU

[Floyd Dakil]

A handful of athletes in history have comparable fitness levels, including the marathon runner Matt Carpenter.

Even though he has won the Pike's Peak Marathon a dozen times, Carpenter is not really a marathon runner. He's a terrific high altitude trail runner, but his best time in the marathon is only 2:19. That's pretty good, but nothing comparable to his exploits as an ultramarathon trail runner.

[Big Dan]

Trek needs to pay up.

:p

[jellybelly]

The real question in this debate is why riders are not testing positive and then admitting that they doped zabel,milliar basso. riders are beating the test. I agree that this fight between trek and lemond does the sport harm.

[McQueen]

Forget GL/LA here, what about GL more or less accusing Contador of doping during this last TdF? The VO2 max number he stated was impossible to attain (96ml/kg?) was remarkably close to the actual highest recorded VO2 max number (92 ml/kg, IIRC?) recorded by a cyclist back in the day. That cyclist, Greg Lemond. I guess he's the only one ever capable of such performance and anyone who can approach that must be a doper. :rolleyes:

You don't have doubts about Contador? How he puts time on Fabian Cancerella in the TT is as much a question to me as that climb.

[goldyjackson]

You don't have doubts about Contador? How he puts time on Fabian Cancerella in the TT is as much a question to me as that climb.

Bingo. Do the math. In a TT, which is all about watts, how does he beat a guy who weighs 40% more than him? The answer is he put out 40% more watts. Not quite possible. And to respond to an earlier post, VO2 max_is_everything, especially in climbing. Do some research and you'll figure it out.

OTOH, he could just have tried really hard. Cadel is a case in point. The man can't hang clean. I like the hot dog analogy. We don't want to know what's in it.

(None of them are bad people. They aren't "cheaters" imho. The ones most responsible are the doctors and the DSs on the team.

[r_mutt]

I don't think Lance doped - he always had the engine and had several things that helped him: significant weight loss, much improved training and pedaling techniques, better preparation and alot of attitude. And lot of winning is just sheer determination to suffer more than the other guy.

If he had doped all those years, he would have been caught - it's become a national priority for France. And then, to come back this year and give the French another shot at finding him guilty with more improved testing techniques, it seems incredulous he could escape.


i find it hard to believe that people who have a fair bit on cycling knowledge still believe that some of the top level cyclists throughout the 90's and into the 2000's didn't all dope. all of them did, and if they didn't, they all ended up like bassons- miserable and off the back.


http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

[dd74]

(None of them are bad people. They aren't "cheaters" imho. The ones most responsible are the doctors and the DSs on the team.
Exactly. They aren't bad people. They're competitive people, and probably know the risks.

This is why I wonder what the big deal is about PEDs in any sport. Physically, I don't think any in-shape cyclist could do what today's Grand Tour rider does in three weeks time w/ minimal rest without PEDs. It's just not physically possible. So why test? Why care? Everyone wants to win, so let them do so by all means necessary. He (or she) who doesn't have the better PED is SOL.

The old NASCAR saying applies here: if you aren't cheating, you aren't winning.

[johnnymossville]

Contador's Final TT at the Tour. I'd like to know what he was on to beat up on Cancellara like that.

[54ny77]

Really good tapas.

Contador's Final TT at the Tour. I'd like to know what he was on to beat up on Cancellara like that.

[McQueen]

Contador's Final TT at the Tour. I'd like to know what he was on to beat up on Cancellara like that.


Do we even know that they've finished all testing of the 09 tour? Seem like there were some Giro positives that just came out recently - who knows if there will be any delayed news?

[Lifelover]

Exactly. They aren't bad people. They're competitive people, and probably know the risks.

This is why I wonder what the big deal is about PEDs in any sport. Physically, I don't think any in-shape cyclist could do what today's Grand Tour rider does in three weeks time w/ minimal rest without PEDs. It's just not physically possible. So why test? Why care? Everyone wants to win, so let them do so by all means necessary. He (or she) who doesn't have the better PED is SOL.

The old NASCAR saying applies here: if you aren't cheating, you aren't winning.

+1

Who cares. Nothing these guys do is good for their bodies. Some of the ban PEDS may even help them.

[whforrest]

Lemond is stilled pissed off about the taco bell commercials he did in the early nineties.

there were many more productive ways lemond could have improved his concern over doping causes

[William]

Lemond is stilled pissed off about the taco bell commercials he did in the early nineties.

there were many more productive ways lemond could have improved his concern over doping causes


Run for the border.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oon45kkLzsQ





William :)

[mandasol]

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=4877992

It's finally over! I think I'll take my Trek built Lemond Buenos Aires out for a ride to commemorate.

[BryanE]

GL is like a pit bull.
I doubt it will ever be over.
Bryan

[AndrewS]

Lemond may be headstrong (snicker), but he isn't stupid. I think he's probably one of the smarter and more progressive pros the sport has. Given that, I have to assume that he's not pissing away lucrative contracts and bankable reputation simply because he cannot control his ego or is just so full of spite for a rider from a different era of cycling.

Given that he's not stupid and he keeps hurting himself, he must truly believe what he's trying to tell the world and is willing to personally sacrifice money and reputation to make that point.


It's easy to put your foot in your mouth. It's hard to stick to your guns when public opinion is against you. I think GL's only sin is being human. I certainly admire him.


I don't have any strong opinion about Lance. But having a charitable foundation does not make you a saint. And I don't think medical science will be set back if one of the multitude of cancer charities has to write smaller checks.

[93legendti]

Lemond may be headstrong (snicker), but he isn't stupid. I think he's probably one of the smarter and more progressive pros the sport has. Given that, I have to assume that he's not pissing away lucrative contracts and bankable reputation simply because he cannot control his ego or is just so full of spite for a rider from a different era of cycling.

Given that he's not stupid and he keeps hurting himself, he must truly believe what he's trying to tell the world and is willing to personally sacrifice money and reputation to make that point.

It's easy to put your foot in your mouth. It's hard to stick to your guns when public opinion is against you. I think GL's only sin is being human. I certainly admire him.

I don't have any strong opinion about Lance. But having a charitable foundation does not make you a saint. And I don't think medical science will be set back if one of the multitude of cancer charities has to write smaller checks.
You can be smart and still act stupidly.
You can take on doping without publicly feuding and disparaging your employer's best source for marketing.

Unless he WANTED to leave Trek, I can't surmise his actions were those of a smart business person.

[cdimattio]

If he had doped all those years, he would have been caught - it's become a national priority for France. And then, to come back this year and give the French another shot at finding him guilty with more improved testing techniques, it seems incredulous he could escape.

While not enough to satisfy the rigid rules and procedures of an international cycling body, the intellectual mass of logical evidence suggesting past doping is overwhelming. 'Reasonable doubt' remains only for those who embrace elaborate conspiracy theories.

I personally ascribe to the belief that there is improved testing and LA could be riding clean today. There is no better way to protect your (potentially tarnished) legacy than to demonstrate world class performance at an advanced age without pharmaceutical assistance.

Unfortunately testing methods continue to lag innovations in usage. I would also note doping is not an abstract concept, it is only defined by what is on a rules list at any point in time.

[oldpotatoe]

Read my first post. You made all three points I was trying to make. You're just parroting what Lance wants you to think. MY personal belief about LeMond? No I don't think he did, but that's just me. He has the single highest VO2 max ever tested in a cyclist, which would be consistent with his results. Lance's VO2 was very good, certainly, (82 vs 92) but nowhere near LeMond's level, and didn't in any way suggest he could go 7 years of tour riding without a single bad day. I think Lance was simply on better stuff than all of the other guys who were on stuff. In the end, though, I can't know for sure. I do know that LeMond's ego has nothing to do with whether Lance is a d-bag.

Indurain's was 94...

"Renowned to be the fittest man ever known, Miguel Indurain, champion cyclist and perennial power in the brutal Tour de France, has had his VO2 max measured at an amazing 94."

From-

http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/nuclear-cardiology/vo2max.cfm

I like Greg, with all his warts. LA has something to hide.

[jbrainin]

Just out of curiousity, how many of you who have negative feelings towards LeMond during, say, the last 5 years or so, actually accept the possibility that Lance used PED's during his TDF wins??

I do. I think Lance is a bigger jerk than LeMond. But I also think LeMond is a putz whose act of running around like the only saint on the planet is both tedious and specious.

How many of you who have negative feelings about Armstrong actually accept that LeMond may have doped during his career?