Tied and Soldered

[mdeeds71]

I am having my CDA built up...The wheels are going to be open pros with DB spoken onto Centaur hubs...(for economy sake...holidays and a wedding you know)...But the wheels are to built with the rear having tied and soldered spokes on the drive side??? (I believe drive side)...

Does anyone have experience with this and why is it done...This is my only road bike and right know my only set of wheels...

I have never seen this in my 13 years of mtb riding.

[Kevan]

my rear wheel has it and it's transparent to me. The idea of the soldering is to stiffen the wheel's support by distributing the the driving forces against the wheel's individual spokes by basically pairing them up. There's a lota talk as to whether or not the practice is all that effective. I figure since the back wheel is taking the brunt of the road's beating the fortification is likely worth it, not necessarily from an improve efficiency perspective, but strength and the spokes' longevity.

[bostondrunk]

Old school and not necessary. Just like 36 spoke wheels..

However I hear that your wheels will track better over potholes when soldered...... :D :p :banana: :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

i hiccup that.
in the "old days", materials, especially rims, were not
of the quality that they are now; t&s-ing wheels were
another safeguard to ensure longevity. in this era, i
view it as decoration, track wheels notwithstanding.

[christian]

It's done for the same reasons as animal slaughter, worship of icons, and chanting at the sun. Ritual. There is no practical benefit, and it makes changing broken spokes a pain in the ***.

High, even tension is your friend. Anything else is basically hogwash. Of course, with high, even tension you'll rarely, if ever break spokes, so the primary disadvantage of tying and soldering is moot. At which point you're just carrying the extra weight of the solder (negligible) and the extra weight of religious belief (weight determined by individual).

- Christian

[Roy E. Munson]

I recall seeing t&s'ing last year, maybe the year before, on some of the bikes at Paris-Roubaix. Maybe they should all be riding Serotta's so they bounce straight over all the cobblestones.

[bostondrunk]

Its funny, when I ram my Serotta into a pothole, I usually find the bike travels straight up my arse......quite harshly..........I'd better get the rear end checked......... :bike:

[e-RICHIE]

snipped:
"At which point... you're just carrying the extra weight of
religious belief (weight determined by individual)."



this, from a guy called "christian"?!

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:




arrange disorder

[William]

I don't like pot holes. They are a sign of dysfunctional society. I just hop over them. Less stress on the wheels and I don't have to remove my seat out of my arse.

William

Who said they carried the vaseline??? :confused:

[christian]

this, from a guy called "christian"?!

What can I say? It was a popular name in Sweden in the seventies. Blame the parents. Let's just say it isn't indicative of any belief in Santa Claus for Adults.

<John Lennon> I just believe in me, </John Lennon>
- Christian

[Too Tall]

What are you guys smokin'? Give me some.

[bostondrunk]

I recall seeing t&s'ing last year, maybe the year before, on some of the bikes at Paris-Roubaix. Maybe they should all be riding Serotta's so they bounce straight over all the cobblestones.

hmmm.....MAYBE they are all Serottas, just painted over with other junky bike names like Merckx, Willier, Specialized, Trek, etc.

[chrisroph]

Its fun to do and it looks cool. My track wheels and my front winter training wheel are tied and soldered. I did the winter wheel because a friend wanted to learn how to t&c so I showed him on a few spokes on that wheel and let him take over.

[Too Tall]

A man with honor. Good reason St. C.

[JohnS]

I saw the thread title and thought that it was going to be about Sandy and Kevan's sexlives! :D

[11.4]

T&S always seems to stir up emotions, partly because there's a lot of misrepresentation about what it does. Some people like Jobst Brandt diss the technique because of artificially loaded tests or because they are just looking for metrics such as rotational rigidity. It's more complicated than that.

On the track, you have to deal with material lateral (sideways) forces created by the banking which exaggerates the loosening of spokes as they are compressed at the point of the wheel touching the track. Loosened spokes are able to move, which causes work-hardening of the metal and breakage. T&S helps prevent movement and thus breakage.

On the road, you have such issues to a somewhat lesser degree, so there's some advantage but not necessarily quite as much. For a heavier rider on rough roads (both issues accentuate the loosening issue), T&S on the road can make sense. You often see it in Paris-Roubaix for that reason (plus if you break a spoke there, the broken pieces tend to stay in place better). For other riders, it's either unnecessary or can even be a bit counterproductive.

Yes, there's some amount of stiffening from T&S. That little bit of wire and solder isn't strong enough to keep two spokes from sliding against one another (and on T&S wheels that have been used for a while, you'll often see that one or both spokes at a junction have separated from the solder -- they are still tied and the solder holds the wire together, which is all it's supposed to do, but one or both spokes can slide up and down through the T&S joint). With all the spokes T&S in a 3 or 4 cross wheel, you do get enough cumulative reinforcement that keeps the wheel from deforming as much as you ride (the part touching the road flattens slightly from pressure while the rest bows outward slightly and very temporarily), which helps prevent gradual work-hardening of the rim and provides a greater sensation of rigidity to the wheel. It feels like greater responsiveness and you get a better read of your contact with the road (which is very useful in a criterium on fast corners, for example). But I'm not surprised that absolute energy transfer from the hub to the tire isn't necessarily improved (and that's what Brandt and others have basically tried to test).

Why did I say T&S in a 3 or 4 cross wheel? If the T&S is 3 inches from the hub flange as it can be in some 2x cross wheels, it just isn't far enough out into the plane of the spokes to provide that much assistance. If your hub can accommodate 4-cross without overlapping spokes over adjacent spokeheads, a little T&S can make for some dynamite rough road wheels.

By the way, T&S can be used on the non-drive side in the rear on heavily dished wheels to avoid excessive spoke movement and breakage. On the right in those cases, be careful because it can increase the apparent tension of a wheel and can exaggerate rim breakage problems. Tension such a wheel to a slightly lower level.

One last thing: There are all kinds of solder and all kinds of wire. I'm not a big fan of the carbon steel wire (typically nickel-plated) that DT and others sell. Besides the fact that it starts to corrode over time, slight movement can actually start to cut stress risers into the spoke. I go to Rio Grande Jewelers Supply (on the web) and order their stainless steel tying wire. It's inexpensive and it's great for this purpose. I use their silver jewelers' solder and also their borax flux. The borax washes out well so you don't have any corrosive acid or other flux remaining on or in the joint. Even a stainless spoke will be damaged by that stuff over time.

[christian]

(plus if you break a spoke there, the broken pieces tend to stay in place better)

This, of course, is where tying and soldering comes from. On ordinaries, a broken spoke could flail about and injure a rider. This is not true on safety bicycles. The spokes aren't long enough.

With all the spokes T&S in a 3 or 4 cross wheel, you do get enough cumulative reinforcement that keeps the wheel from deforming as much as you ride (the part touching the road flattens slightly from pressure while the rest bows outward slightly and very temporarily),

I'd be very interested to read an analysis comparing two wheels with identical components and tensioned equally, one t&s, one not, that supports this statement. I've heard it repeated before, but no one has any physical measurements or FE analysis to back it up. I think it's just pure conjecture.

But I'm still ok with the process. It seems to pass the Universal Law formulation (1st) of the Categorical Imperative and it doesn't hurt anyone else. How many belief systems can say that?

- Christian

[Too Tall]

OK I expect to see both you knuckleheads at upcoming bicycle trials with your Giles Berthods and T&S wheels. thinkingofabannanasplit

[jerk]

its a good idea on track bikes with really light rims and lots of spokes.....keirin requires it so broken spokes don't fall off bikes......it does seem to make a wheel torsionally stiffer in the jerk's experience.
jerk

[bulliedawg]

This, of course, is where tying and soldering comes from. On ordinaries, a broken spoke could flail about and injure a rider. This is not true on safety bicycles. The spokes aren't long enough.



I'd be very interested to read an analysis comparing two wheels with identical components and tensioned equally, one t&s, one not, that supports this statement. I've heard it repeated before, but no one has any physical measurements or FE analysis to back it up. I think it's just pure conjecture.

But I'm still ok with the process. It seems to pass the Universal Law formulation (1st) of the Categorical Imperative and it doesn't hurt anyone else. How many belief systems can say that?

- Christian

I've never heard of tied and soldered spokes, but there is a brief analysis on Sheldon Brown's web site.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html


Can someone post photos of tied and soldered wheels? Thanks

[chrisroph]

Jobst knows less than he thinks. He also says not to use a threadlock compound on your nipples. IMHO, its a very good idea particularly on the rear non-drive side because of low spoke tension.

[csb]

my mother said if you have something bad to say, say
it so all can hear...

jobst brandt, what is that an employment agency for a small goose?

he also claims that while riding, rubbing the crap off your tire with your
gloved hand is useless.

[chrisroph]

jobst know all...jobst thinks.

[hooverone]

Here is a picture.

[medici]

T&S always seems to stir up emotions, partly because there's a lot of misrepresentation about what it does. Some people like Jobst Brandt diss the technique because of artificially loaded tests or because they are just looking for metrics such as rotational rigidity. It's more complicated than that.


Yes, Jobst's name always comes up in this debate. I've had all of my handbuilt wheels built up this way since . . . the late 80's. Not by choice, originally. The local wheelmeister who built the wheels was a student of Spence Wolff, and that's just how it was done.

I really like it, although I have zero scientific proof that it does anything to improve strength and stiffness. Just how it feels. I like 11.4's explanation, because that's how it feels.
I can say that I've had zero problems with any wheels done this way, including Mavics, DA, Ultegra, Phils, King, and even pre-built Classics Pros. And they rarely have to be trued. And I go 185# and am rough on my gear. Chris King claimed that the deformation of one of their rear hubs was caused by the t&s, but I think they were searching. Ultimately they replaced the hub.

I'll try to insert a photo of a pair of t&s Phils I had built 2 years back.
. . . well, maybe not. File's too large it says.

Pete

[dave thompson]

.........I'll try to insert a photo of a pair of t&s Phils I had built 2 years back.
. . . well, maybe not. File's too large it says.

Pete
Here's a handy, freeware, image resizer that I use: http://www.imageresizer.com/

Free and easy, what could be better?

[vaxn8r]

he also claims that while riding, rubbing the crap off your tire with your
gloved hand is useless.
Are you implying it isn't useless?

[medici]

Here's a handy, freeware, image resizer that I use: http://www.imageresizer.com/

Free and easy, what could be better?

Thanks, Dave. Slick.

[bulliedawg]

Thanks for the pics, gentlemen. I don't like it. I think it gives the wheels an unfinished look. Don't know why someone would have it done, if, as eRichie said, it's unneeded with today's improved wheel components.

[csb]

it IS useful, in fact necessary here in the bucolic big city
of wet, stickey, sharp, crap.

[christian]

No, it's not. As Jobst says, by the time you reach down there, the wheel has already traveled at least 2-3 revolutions, enough to jab any sharp piece of detritus well into the tire casing and tube.

Besides, I live in the big bad city and have had 1 flat in 3 years, despite a total lack of wiping. So my anecdote wins. :beer:

- Christian

[chrisroph]

Haven't you ever reached down to rub your tire and had something jab into your hand. Haven't you ever felt something in your tire and stopped and pulled a staple, a thorn or a piece of wire out of the tire before the foreign object had a chance to penetrate all the way into the tube. Haven't you ever felt a tire bulge and stopped and inspected your tire. I have done all of the above. A bicycle tire is a relatively fragile thing. It needs frequent inspection to ensure safety and maximum functionality. Rubbing your tires while riding may occasionally remove a potentially damaging foreign object and it is also a way of performing a rolling inspection. Wiping certainly causes no harm. And, tying and soldering is cool.

[christian]

I agree that wiping causes no harm, but I do my inspection of tires pre-ride. Let's just agree to disagree on the t&s.

- Christian

[chrisroph]

How's the palosanto?

[christian]

Fantastic! I built it with 9sp Dura-Ace and d/t shifters, and I think it came in somewhere just under 20 lbs. I've only got about 350 miles on it so far, as I've been riding my fendered fixed gear mostly, but I did some hill repeats on it last weekend. It really fits me like a glove. I couldn't be happier with it, though my wife says I have to cut the 22mm of steerer above the stem off...

Thanks again for a great deal,
- Christian

[chrisroph]

Glad to here it fits well and that you like it. Its too nice a bike to collect dust. Its the smoothest riding steel bike I've ever ridden. I'm amazed how well it absorbs road shock. You probably should get around to doing the final cut of the steerer. Its really tall with all of the spacers above the stem. I just got back from a hilly 30 on my CSi. It was about 58 degrees, sunny, a beautiful day, the first day in a long time I could ride without full fingered gloves. The CSi is a real beauty, smooth, snappy a great tracker. The F1 fork with steel steerer has an amazing controlled ride.

[Ken Lehner]

I can say that I've had zero problems with any wheels done this way, including Mavics, DA, Ultegra, Phils, King, and even pre-built Classics Pros. And they rarely have to be trued. And I go 185# and am rough on my gear.

Well, I'm convinced.