OT: Solar panels

[Smiley]

I am in the process of having a Solar Co-op swing by for a $100 evaluation fee to look at the possibility of adding PV panels on my roof(s). I have morfed my home with three renovations adding south facing roof space. The time maybe right to do this now as the state and fed are offering some nice rebates. The evaluation will tell me what my payback will be and the Co-op will do all the paperwork for these rebates. I think spending $100 to dispell or confirm the merits of solar seem woth it. Anybody get pluged in with the sun? Opinions and things to watch for.

[MRB]

I've used solar PV's a lot, at a remote family place that is "off the grid".
As with most technologies, the newer ones are better /more efficient than the older ones.

The other side of the equation is batteries, which are expensive, bulky, and have a life span. Then you have inverters, too.

Maybe in your case since I am assuming that your house has a service, that you will plug into the grid and not need strorage or converstion equipment.

Solar is great because it is clean and renewable, no doubt about it, but you don't immediatly get something for nothing.

You can't very easily run a TIG welder, or pump water with it for that matter.

Let us know if you decide to get part of your elect. from the Sun.

Here in Montana we have a law that if you produce more electricity than you use. In other words of your electric meter spins the other direction, even it is just occasionally, say when you are away from home but your PV's are doing their thing, then the utilites have to purchase what you produce.

[RPS]

I am in the process of having a Solar Co-op swing by for a $100 evaluation fee to look at the possibility of adding PV panels on my roof(s). ..........snipped...........
Opinions and things to watch for.
Conflict of interests?

I’d want to make sure the guy doing the study and evaluation would not benefit in any way from recommending any system.

[MRB]

Conflict of interests?

I’d want to make sure the guy doing the study and evaluation would not benefit in any way from recommending any system.

That is a good point, I would THINK he will just be advising on the costs-vs-benefits, the average (typical) number of "Solar Days" in that area, the long-term ROI, etc. But then again, it is hard to imagine he won't have a bias.

[Smiley]

The appeal of using a co-op is that THEY have studied the hardware and systems for you and have many and in this case many installs to base their track sucess record on and they negotiate better terms because they can bundle a bunch of homes at one time.

http://www.commoncentssolar.org/index.html

As an engineer I will do my evaluation on all the panels they suggest. And yes my plan is to back feed the meter and slow down the rate of use. My neighbor just installed a cr#p load of panels next door to me and I plan to talk to him too.

[Z3c]

Smiley,

I had a 4.2Kw solar system installed on our home in Tucson and it is tremendous. The first thing I would say is to be weary of false info as there is a lot of incorrect info flying around. Understand that off-grid is a very different situation then remaining connected to the power company which is what most folks do. Typically, there is no need for storage batteries as long as you are staying connected to the power company. Key is to find out what your electric utility does if you install a system; if they offer "net metering" you are golden. What that means is that during the times when your system is making more power than your house is using that the excess is sent back into the grid and you get some form(it varies a lot by state/utility) of credit for it. If your elec. utility does not offer net metering, you would just lose any excess power your system generates. An inverter will always be required as solar panels produce dc power. Ours is about the size of a breaker box and is on the wall in our garage-no big deal at all. It is totally transparent to us; our panels are hard to see as they are on the back roof area. There are no restrictions or whatever; during times when we need electricity, we are buying it just like everyone else.. Only our monthly bills are pretty low.

You also want to consider the equity/appraisal value when you are doing the math. The Nat'l Appraisers org site says they consider the added value to be 100x the monthly dollar value of the energy provided. In our case, that means a system that is providing about $200/month in power while adding $20K to the value of our house. Out of pocket cost for us was $7500 after we received our tax and utility rebates. That is the kind of math I like! I realize the appraisal value is only so relevant unless you sell but still it is there. Worst case, break-even is about 3 years if you base it only on the reduced electric bills.

Feel free to ask questions; it is worth it in the long run. We are on a golf course and frequently have golfers ask us about them when we are outside. There is a lot of good info on the web such as expected efficiency for your location which will be key. I truly believe that solar is a large part of the answer to the U.S. achieving energy independence.. Kudos to you for considering it.

Good luck,

Scott

[Dave]

I like the idea of having PV panels and will at least consider using them when I build my future retirement home. It will be a ranch style home with lots of roof, but also lots of land, so I wouldn't have to put them on the house.

There are PV shingles now that can be integrated into the roof to improve the looks.

http://www.jetsongreen.com/2009/10/dow-unveils-new-powerhouse-solar-shingle.html

I still think the prices are high enough that the payoff period would be very long. A lot of people install them only to be environmentally conscious and really don't expect a significant payback. If a loan is required to buy them, the payments may do little more than match the reduced electricity bill, perhpas less. Folks who live in warm sunny climates stand to gain the most. Solar panel output can drop to 60% with snow on the panels.

[csm]

don't solar panels "wear" out over a period of years? that is, they lost efficiency and need replacing? I tried to do a quick search but couldn't find it. I thought I read somewhere that 10-15 yrs was the practical lifespan. of course, seems to me in the same article I read that there was new tech coming out in the solar panel world that addressed these things.
I'd love to have solar panels AND a vertical windmill to augment my power usage. I am not naive enough to think that I could go completely off the grid; especially given the unique power arrangements this house has. I have 110 for most things; 220 for the sauna and hottub that the previous owners had; and 440 for the thermal storage units that heat this place in the off season.

[Smiley]

At the Solar decathalon last week we were told that panel life is closer to 25 years today. Anyway it will be interesting to see as Pepco my utility has lots of good incentives for MD residents.

[Z3c]

We were told pv panels do lose effieciency but that they will level out at around 50% after 25 years or so.. I figured that the approx. 2% annual loss is at least offset by the cost of the electricity increasing 2% or more annually. As to payback, it is very much dependent upon the cumulative benefits offered by your utility and the tax credits. Currently, Federal credit is 30% of the total cost. State credits and utility rebates of course vary.

Smiley; chat with the neighbor, I bet he knows the details. In these times very few are adding solar without figuring out the math.

Scott

[csm]

with a 2% annual loss against a 2% increase in costs... wouldn't your actual benefit decline then? assuming a % of cost offset... as one cost goes up vs a benefit cost decreasing....
using round nos.... power cost $100 and you drive 50% with solar panels leaving your net cost $50.
next year your power cost is $102 vs 48% which would be $49 or so...
or am I too simplistic?

[SEABREEZE]

If you are thinking solar panels, I beleive that is old school technology. They now have flat film, that lays almost flush wth the roof. No more raised panel solar.

There was a news segment locally, showing this tecnology.
The initial out lay is quite expensive, but with govt grants and such, its doable.

They showed the homeowner selling back unused power back to the power company. With this installed at the height of Florida's summer heat, his electric bill averaged around $50.00 permonth

NOT TO SHABBY, BUT THERE IS A RATHER LARGE INITIAL OUTLAY $$$

[Ray]

Smiley,

I had a 4.2Kw solar system installed on our home in Tucson and it is tremendous. ......I realize the appraisal value is only so relevant unless you sell but still it is there. Worst case, break-even is about 3 years if you base it only on the reduced electric bills.
How much are these numbers dependent on your Tucson location? I grew up in Tucson and I seem to remember having more than a little bit of sun out there. :cool:

I live in a Condo complex and I'd looooove to get the board of the place to look into having a complex wide installation done at some point. But I expect I'm gonna have to wait about ten years until the older folks who currently live here turn over (so to speak) and the price of electricity starts getting serious. Right now there wouldn't be any level of receptivity, even if there was only a three year break even period. I'd doubt its that short here in the mid-Atlantic though.

-Ray

[Ozz]

If you are thinking solar panels, I beleive that is old school technology. They now have flat film, that lays almost flush wth the roof. No more raised panel solar....
I think one of the recent National Geographic issues had a pretty good article about solar power....there are huge efficiencies on horizon, as well as different panel construction methods. THe one I liked was the PV "paint"....IIRC, it was only about 10% efficient, the the point was you could cover city roof tops with it....very cool stuff.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/09/solar/johnson-text/1

:beer:

[Karin Kirk]

Good for you Smiley,

Grid tie-in is the way to go, as others have mentioned. Starting with a co-op is a smart move because they will know the ins and outs of the rebates for your state, plus the payback policies from your local utility. Let us know how it goes and what you decide. I would very much to take a step toward generating some of our own power within the next 5 or so years.

I also have to wonder what will happen to electricity prices in the next ~5 years. I've got to believe the price of coal-powered electricity is going to have to increase with carbon policy (of some sort) on the way.

I went to some excellent talks about carbon sequestration last week at a big geoscience conference. One of the speakers was a coal lobbyist from DC. It is clear that their industry is totally hinging on carbon sequestration working, which it may not. Even if it does work, it's going to add 20% to 30% to the price tag for coal powered electricity. With all the scientific and engineering uncertainties surrounding carbon sequestration, I asked him what is the coal industry's plan B - what is carbon sequestration does not work? His response: "we'll make it work."

It will be interesting to see how the technology shakes out and what happens with US policy, but for certain it is a smart move to shift away from fossil fuels. Generating your own power is smarter yet and will insulate you from market pricing.

[Smiley]

Karen and All, I spoke to my neighbor yesterday and he has seen his meter spin digitally backwards with his photo cells installed. He tells me that the BIG payout is where PEPCO is mandated to supply 20% of its future energy from Solar or wind and that's where they buy back your solar credits to use for their own use. These credit prices will increase over time along with the cost of electric. The outlay of cash is high to begin with as most of the rebates are on tax returns and future savings. I think he said he spent 36K and expects the cost to be after all credits and rebates to be around 15K out of pocket initially. So my money is sitting dead in a money market fund that may do a better job sitting in PV panels on my roof :) or a Meivici AE

[RPS]

Right now there wouldn't be any level of receptivity, even if there was only a three year break even period.
Can you blame them? Maybe many of them face “turning over” in less than 3 years.

A 10- to 20-year payback period certainly wouldn’t go over well for older citizens.

[Len J]

I've looked at it twice over the last 5 years and could never make the economics work. (best payback I could figure was 10+ years (assuming you stay in the house. If you plan on increasing your resale, I'd be careful of the claims I've heard) I think if you do it, you should go into it not to pay for it self but to be environmentally pro-active.

BTW, check to make sure you know how much your home-owners will go up.

IMO.,YMMV

Len

[dd74]

Isn't the initial outlay of solar panels partially linked to a house's square footage? The smaller the house, the less the outlay.

I'm in L.A. I'm not certain the DWP buys back power. I should look into it.

[csm]

iirc the power companies "buy" back the excess generated at wholesale costs vs retail at delivery?

[Karin Kirk]

iirc the power companies "buy" back the excess generated at wholesale costs vs retail at delivery?

It varies by location, as do the state-level rebates. It's quite confusing because the payback is different everywhere. Thus, good folks like Smiley are wise to really do their homework before taking the plunge.

BTW in Germany, they buy back the electricity at nearly double the retail price, which has spawned a huge increase in renewable energy and solar panels on barns, in highway medians, etc.

If this interests you, here is a short video about this from NOVA
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/wgbh-nova/13626-germanys-solar-experiment-video.htm

[don'TreadOnMe]

waltworks.com
Walt's fully solar powered, and runs his house and shop (welder and mills).
It's totally doable...and like Moore's Law w/computing, the PV stuff is going to keep getting better and cheaper, no?

[NHAero]

[QUOTE=Karin Kirk]It varies by location, as do the state-level rebates.


http://www.dsireusa.org/

[billrick]

Grid tie-in is the way to go, as others have mentioned.

I want solar in my next house. How does grid tie-in impact your use of solar during a power outage? Do you still need batteries or a generator for black outs? A big concern of ours here in the mid-Atlantic.


:confused:

[Karin Kirk]

I want solar in my next house. How does grid tie-in impact your use of solar during a power outage? Do you still need batteries or a generator for black outs? A big concern of ours here in the mid-Atlantic.


During a black out, you'd be just fine as long as the sun is shining brightly. :rolleyes:
Otherwise, you do need batteries or a generator or some form of plan B.

[Z3c]

I want solar in my next house. How does grid tie-in impact your use of solar during a power outage? Do you still need batteries or a generator for black outs? A big concern of ours here in the mid-Atlantic.


:confused:

Basically, what Karin said with a few caveats. You would be fine during a power outage assuming it is fairly sunny and the solar system is large enough to power everything you need. Adding power storage quickly adds expense and requires space so most folks don't go there unless the goal is to be off-grid. If you want solid backup, you are probably still better off to look at a generator or whatever as solar will go away when the sun goes down. Plus, your system would have to be large enough that it would charge the batteries while simultaneously providing power. If it was large enough, you would be generating lots of excess power during normal times; not a bad thing but you would certainly want to know what your utility offers in that regard.

One alternative would be to look into the wind turbine option; the wind doesn't stop when the sun goes down. You can find info online about the wind profile in your area. There are a lot of turbines now that are visually reasonable; some are cylindrical rather than spinning props..

Good luck,

Scott

[billrick]

During a black out, you'd be just fine as long as the sun is shining brightly. :rolleyes:
Otherwise, you do need batteries or a generator or some form of plan B.

Thanks, Karen and Scott. Kind of what I figured . . . redundancy needed for emergency systems. As far as the sun shining, we always seems to have bright sunny days after our lovely ice storms! Nature's way of showing us how pretty her work is, I guess. Also, I lost power for 10 days after our last big hurricane. Lots of sunny days. I can't wait to have my back up system in place!

Also, I've already explored the generator systems and figure I'd be running the fridge, a ceiling fan, and no more than two or three lights. We already have wood heat available for the main living area.

:)

[pbjbike]

Don't forget about thermal solar, generally used for heat and hot water. The incentives in most locales are not as high as for PV, but the initial outlay is less, the payback quicker, and the panels lose very little efficiency over the long term.

One of our clients opted for a six panel drain-back system with a 400 gallon storage tank and a hot water coil/radiator installed in the forced air intake. Another coil circulates through the hot water heater. Their monthly heat and hot water bill is down to $125-150 from 300-350 in the winter. Total cost was around 20K, but we didn't make much on that one ;).

If you have a boiler for heat, the tie-in with thermal solar is a natural. It's also a great way to heat a pool in the summer, and your house in the winter. If you just want hot water, two panels is enough for most homes, and in the summer, you can turn off the hot water heater.

Resale value is another consideration. Even if you don't realize the payback of the initial outlay before selling your house, it's a capital improvement (and hip right now), so you can easily add the cost of the solar to the asking price.

Cheers

[rockdude]

Don't forget about thermal solar, generally used for heat and hot water. The incentives in most locales are not as high as for PV, but the initial outlay is less, the payback quicker, and the panels lose very little efficiency over the long term.

One of our clients opted for a six panel drain-back system with a 400 gallon storage tank and a hot water coil/radiator installed in the forced air intake. Another coil circulates through the hot water heater. The clients monthly heat and hot water bill is down to $125-150 from 300-350 in the winter. Total cost was around 20K, but we didn't make much on that one ;).

But would it work deep in Boulder Canyon? How does it do in the dead of winter?

[pbjbike]

Depends on your exposure. We have clients way up Lee Hill/Left Hand. If you have enough panels and storage capacity, it works up there. Winter output is lower for sure. There's one large house with 17 panels! I can get you in touch with a few folks who live up there to discuss their systems.

[rockdude]

Depends on your exposure. We have clients way up Lee Hill/Left Hand. If you have enough panels and storage capacity, it works up there. Winter output is lower for sure. There's one large house with 17 panels! I can get you in touch with a few folks who live up there to discuss their systems.

I don't know if we would see the benefits of solar. Our electric bill for the past 12 months is only $930 plus $150 for firewood. 90% of our heat comes from the wood buring stove. I think our water heater is most of that electric, the water from the well is pretty cold. We don't use the AC, although there is always 3-4 computer on plus a lot TV on in the background and we still use alot of non-fluorescent lights.

Something cheap to help the waterheater might make sense.

[Z3c]

I don't know if we would see the benefits of solar. Our electric bill for the past 12 months is only $930 plus $150 for firewood. 90% of our heat comes from the wood buring stove. I think our water heater is most of that electric, the water from the well is pretty cold. We don't use the AC, although there is always 3-4 computer on plus a lot TV on in the background and we still use alot of non-fluorescent lights.

Something cheap to help the waterheater might make sense.

I believe that CO is one of the leaders in PV usage; some companies have relocated there recently to include Ascent Solar(sym: asti) who is one of the companies coming out with the thin, pliable panels that can used like shingles.

Solar hot water heat is typically very effective and usually very reasonable to install. System quotes here have been in the $3K range. Essentially it pre-heats the water going into your hot water heater so the delta is less.

Scott

[pbjbike]

I don't know if we would see the benefits of solar. Our electric bill for the past 12 months is only $930 plus $150 for firewood. 90% of our heat comes from the wood buring stove. I think our water heater is most of that electric, the water from the well is pretty cold. We don't use the AC, although there is always 3-4 computer on plus a lot TV on in the background and we still use alot of non-fluorescent lights.

Something cheap to help the waterheater might make sense.

Wow, you either burn only one cord of wood, or there's some sweat equity going on with your wood supply ;). Sounds like you've got a pretty efficient homestead. Resource does get used thermal panels in from time to time, and buying a couple that way might make it worth it. OTOH, the rebate/incentive is only good for new systems.

I don't know if they are still made, but there are wood stoves out there with copper coils going through them to heat water. One could retrofit an existing stove. You'd need a circulating pump to keep the water flowing when the stove is in use.

[rockdude]

Wow, you either burn only one cord of wood, or there's some sweat equity going on with your wood supply ;). Sounds like you've got a pretty efficient homestead. Resource does get used thermal panels in from time to time, and buying a couple that way might make it worth it. OTOH, the rebate/incentive is only good for new systems.

I don't know if they are still made, but there are wood stoves out there with copper coils going through them to heat water. One could retrofit an existing stove. You'd need a circulating pump to keep the water flowing when the stove is in use.

We keep the house pretty cool and use about 1 3/4 cords a year. I typically buy one cord and do a little tree trim on the property or keep an eye on craigslist for free wood in the late summer. I don't think we can run water to our stove but I will check Resourse and look into a system like Z3c mentioned.

[GuyGadois]

We put in a solar PV system a couple of years ago and have been very happy with it. Our system was designed to cover about 70-80% of our electric consumption. It wasn't economically feasible to try to cover all the cost. We wanted to reduce the higher tier of electrical costs. We also left space and installed a slightly larger inverter for future expansion if we need to. We switched our electrical rates to Time of Use (TOU) which means we pay and sell our electricity at high rates during the day and use cheap electricity at night. This works best if you don't use lots of electricity during the peak hours (11pm to 7pm). We don't have extreme heat or cold in our area so we don't use much electricity during the day.

Each year the solar panels will lose some power generating power. We will probably have to replace them in about 15 years is what we were told. The technology will be worlds different by them. I look at the purchase like buying a variable interest rate bond where the chance of the interest going up is a better chance than going down. Or, you can look at it like prepaying your electric bill or a good part of it.

-GG-

[GuyGadois]

I want solar in my next house. How does grid tie-in impact your use of solar during a power outage? Do you still need batteries or a generator for black outs? A big concern of ours here in the mid-Atlantic.


:confused:

Typically poweroutages occur during a storm where no power is generated anyway. If power goes out and your are on the grid your power does NOT go back on the grid. The power company has a switch which effectively switches your power making off (at what level I don't know). I inquired about this and the power company said they do this to protect the workers who are working on the electrical lines and can't have it live.

-GG-

[cleavel]

Hi,

A lot of great info in this thread. I wanted to post here a few days ago but I kept getting distracted. :o

We have a 4.8 kW system on our 2-story house. We've had it for a little over a year. The year prior to the installation, our electric bill was $3,100 (our house is completely electric -- no gas, no oil). Our first year with the system brought our bill down to $800. We paid $21K out of pocket for the system. You can do the NPV math for our break-even analysis.

Our Kyocera panels have a guarantee to produce 80% of their rated power output after 20 years. Our solar company said that they should be good for >50% of their rated power for over 35 years.

Karen and All, I spoke to my neighbor yesterday and he has seen his meter spin digitally backwards with his photo cells installed. He tells me that the BIG payout is where PEPCO is mandated to supply 20% of its future energy from Solar or wind and that's where they buy back your solar credits to use for their own use.

Isn't the initial outlay of solar panels partially linked to a house's square footage? The smaller the house, the less the outlay.

I'm in L.A. I'm not certain the DWP buys back power. I should look into it.

iirc the power companies "buy" back the excess generated at wholesale costs vs retail at delivery?

SoCal Edison has a similar state requirement to produce energy from renewable resources. They paid for part of our system, the state paid for some with a check, and the feds gave us a tax credit. It added up to about 30% of the system cost.

SCE also has us on a system that works very well for us. First they pay us for excess electricity that we produce. They pay us based on a time-of-use system. Because of high demands during weekdays, the electricity used from 9:00a to 6:00p is more expensive. Our house is generally empty during those times so we are producing a lot of "expensive" electricity. At night we use electricity when it is much cheaper. Weekends are at a constant "middle" rate.

After a year of ownership, the only issue that we have is keeping the panels clean. Have you ever watched the TV show on the Planet Green network called, Living with Ed? Ed Begley Jr. has a great roof for getting up close to his panels and cleaning them periodically. We have a pretty traditional sloping roof. I went up there right after the installation but I haven't been there since. I really need to figure out how to wipe down the panels once a month during our long dry season.

Finally, as you can see, there isn't a great economic benefit for us given our electricity usage. However, our philosophy is that if we can show a reasonable break-even for anything that helps us reduce our carbon footprint and it doesn't impact our ability to send our two boys to college, we are doing it. We did the Prius thing the first year they were available in the US. We've used CF bulbs for years (though we didn't originally know about the mercury). Etc. If you can afford it and it isn't going to cost you money then I say go for it. We have no regrets.