OT: E-Readers; Kindle, Sony, Nook?

[rugbysecondrow]

Anybody use E-Readers? I have been wanting one for a while as I get tired of lugging books all over the place when I commute and travel, but I have been put off by the price and the lull in technology. It seems it is now rapidly improving as evidenced by the new Barnes and Noble model, the Nook. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/nook/?bnit=H&cds2Pid=30919

The prices seem to be dropping quickly with the amenities increasing as well, with wi-fi, 3g, touch screens etc.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Paul

[malcolm]

I loved my kindle, however I left it on an airplane and it was deregistered from my name and re registered to someone else the next day, needless to say I never got it back. I think amazon makes it way to easy to allow someone to steal or use a stolen kindle, granted I was a bone head for leaving it. I'm pissed enough at amazon that I'm waiting until next month to look and barnes and nobles nook, it has some cool features the kindle doesn't.

All my saga aside the kindle was a great product and I miss it, hopefully the nook will work for me.

[rugbysecondrow]

What you said was spooky to me as well, that there is no "ownership" feature of the Kindle. What I also didn't like was when they withdrew from peoples Kindle a book that they had purchased from the store. I guess there was an unauthorized book sold that they then retracted without permission from peoples unit. I just didn't like the idea that somebody could reach into my computer and remove something I purchesed. Oddly enough, I think it was Orwell's book, 1984.

The Nook seems really cool, which is what is prompting me to really look into this now.

[malcolm]

For what it is worth, changing ownership of the kindle is apparently very easy, just a phone call, amazon does nothing to validate ownership. When speaking with them they are very nice but do everything possible not to be helpful.

A friend with a similar electronics experience had some sort of gps device used for golfing left attached to a golf cart and when he went back to get it of course it was gone. He called the company and they said no one could use it unless they had his code to verify ownership. So apparently it can be done and some companies do, but amazon would rather you buy another one and then they can sell books to two.

[Ray]

I have a Kindle and I'm really happy with it, but like the original ipods, its gonna look pretty lame in a few years. I've seen and played with one of the new Sony readers and I've seen the online stuff about the nook. I wasn't impressed with the Sony - the nook looks pretty promising, and I'm sure Amazon will come out with its next generation soon enough. I doubt there's a super-compelling reason to buy one over the others right now. The screens are all identical and the controls are easy enough to get right (although it took Amazon until the second generation to really nail that part). The biggest thing is content. If B&N's advertising is for real, they're gonna start off with a huge load more available content than Amazon currently has. As with any software, music, etc, I'd prefer a more open format than Amazon uses. I suspect that B&N will not be open either, because they're really touting the ability to "share" books with friends, but with a two week limit on loaners and you can't read it during the two weeks its "lent". To work out an enforcement for that whole two week deal, there's gonna have to be some sort of proprietary format/protocol involved.

I think this stuff is gonna evolve really rapidly over the next few years. Owning a Kindle already, I seriously doubt I'll buy anything else anytime soon - I'll give it a while to all shake out, particularly on the content/copy protection front. But if I were buying for the first time right now, I'd give the Nook a pretty serious look also.

I doubt any of them will handle the theft / ownership issue that Malcolm had to deal with much differently. If you lose an ipod or a cell phone or something, you still own the content and/or service and can keep the thief or new owner from continuing to use the service or acquire new content on your nickel, but you're SOL on the hardware. I don't see e-readers being much different. Its a bummer to lose something, but I don't see how any of them could really handle that much differently without taking on some enormous legal headaches.

-Ray

[malcolm]

I have a Kindle and I'm really happy with it, but like the original ipods, its gonna look pretty lame in a few years. I've seen and played with one of the new Sony readers and I've seen the online stuff about the nook. I wasn't impressed with the Sony - the nook looks pretty promising, and I'm sure Amazon will come out with its next generation soon enough. I doubt there's a super-compelling reason to buy one over the others right now. The screens are all identical and the controls are easy enough to get right (although it took Amazon until the second generation to really nail that part). The biggest thing is content. If B&N's advertising is for real, they're gonna start off with a huge load more available content than Amazon currently has. As with any software, music, etc, I'd prefer a more open format than Amazon uses. I suspect that B&N will not be open either, because they're really touting the ability to "share" books with friends, but with a two week limit on loaners and you can't read it during the two weeks its "lent". To work out an enforcement for that whole two week deal, there's gonna have to be some sort of proprietary format/protocol involved.

I think this stuff is gonna evolve really rapidly over the next few years. Owning a Kindle already, I seriously doubt I'll buy anything else anytime soon - I'll give it a while to all shake out, particularly on the content/copy protection front. But if I were buying for the first time right now, I'd give the Nook a pretty serious look also.

I doubt any of them will handle the theft / ownership issue that Malcolm had to deal with much differently. If you lose an ipod or a cell phone or something, you still own the content and/or service and can keep the thief or new owner from continuing to use the service or acquire new content on your nickel, but you're SOL on the hardware. I don't see e-readers being much different. Its a bummer to lose something, but I don't see how any of them could really handle that much differently without taking on some enormous legal headaches.

-Ray

Ray, you know I love you but it would be easy for amazon to verify ownership prior to turning it off in one persons name and restarting it in someones else's. All you would need is a code or password and yeah I know I'm bitter, I loved my kindle.

[Ray]

Ray, you know I love you but it would be easy for amazon to verify ownership prior to turning it off in one persons name and restarting it in someones else's. All you would need is a code or password and yeah I know I'm bitter, I loved my kindle.
Technically, I know, they could do all sorts of stuff very easily. But as we debated when this first came up, legally, they just can't get involved in ownership disputes. Yeah, theft seems pretty straightforward but how do they verify theft versus, say, a person to person sale that went very very bad and turned into a my word vs someone else's word? I suspect they'd rather leave that to law enforcement and the courts, etc, etc, than to try to bite that one off themselves. If I sold or lost a cell phone or had it stolen, I would de-register the service right away. If the new owner, whether legit or not, tried to re-establish the service under their own name, the vendor will always let them unless law enforcement has gotten involved somehow and told them not to. Which seems pretty unlikely for such small and relatively inexpensive goods.

I understand your bitterness - I'd be upset too. But I also understand Amazon's position. And I'd be willing to bet you a dollar or five that B&N will handle the Nook the same way, or very close to the same way. I don't realistically see how else they could do it.

-Ray

[sg8357]

I have a Kindle and I'm really happy with it, but like the original ipods, its gonna look pretty lame in a few years.

-Ray

"Any computer you can buy is obsolete"

There was an article in the NYT today, you average Kindle owner buys 6+ books a month, my question is who has time to read that much ?, or are those books just going on the "guilt pile" of unread stuff ? Me, If I can't see the guilt pile, it is not there, so I'll buy lots of books never to be read. That is my reason to not buy a KinNook. I just saved $300, I can now go buy a Rapha Softshell. :)

[Ray]

"Any computer you can buy is obsolete"

There was an article in the NYT today, you average Kindle owner buys 6+ books a month, my question is who has time to read that much ?, or are those books just going on the "guilt pile" of unread stuff ? Me, If I can't see the guilt pile, it is not there, so I'll buy lots of books never to be read. That is my reason to not buy a KinNook. I just saved $300, I can now go buy a Rapha Softshell. :)
I have a decent backlog in my Kindle, but its only a few months deep and it keeps turning over. I bought a couple of books when I first got it in March of 2008 that I haven't read and may not, but I read most of them. I go in spurts, reading a TON for a few months and then nearly nothing for a few months. Winter and summer I read a lot, fall and spring not so much. I don't see it any differently than any other way I've ever had of buying books. Its just that they take up infinitely less room before you read them and after, and slightly less room while you're reading them. I probably have bought as many as six books in some months, but most months are one or two, if any.

Enjoy the Rapha!

-Ray

[sc53]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is the benefit of KinNook etc over Audible or other means of downloading audiobooks? For myself, I love Audible, I can be read to while stuck in a traffic jam, or while lying on a sofa with eyes closed not straining to read the text on a Kindle. I have made it through many books I could never finish by reading text, e.g., Moby Dick (listened to it twice, it was so good; never got past first 200 pages when trying to read it), tons of Dickens, and now War and Peace.

[rugbysecondrow]

I travel quite a bit for work and take a train to work, so I am constantly buying books and lugging them around. It sounds funny, but I normally try to travel with just a carry on, so any space I save is worth it to me and books seem to take up quite a bit of space.

[malcolm]

Technically, I know, they could do all sorts of stuff very easily. But as we debated when this first came up, legally, they just can't get involved in ownership disputes. Yeah, theft seems pretty straightforward but how do they verify theft versus, say, a person to person sale that went very very bad and turned into a my word vs someone else's word? I suspect they'd rather leave that to law enforcement and the courts, etc, etc, than to try to bite that one off themselves. If I sold or lost a cell phone or had it stolen, I would de-register the service right away. If the new owner, whether legit or not, tried to re-establish the service under their own name, the vendor will always let them unless law enforcement has gotten involved somehow and told them not to. Which seems pretty unlikely for such small and relatively inexpensive goods.

I understand your bitterness - I'd be upset too. But I also understand Amazon's position. And I'd be willing to bet you a dollar or five that B&N will handle the Nook the same way, or very close to the same way. I don't realistically see how else they could do it.

-Ray


How does having it password protected bring up ownership issues? You either have the password or you don't. I don't expect them to determine ownership, but I also don't think you should make it easy to use stolen property.

Long story short I was an idiot for leaving it behind.

[malcolm]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is the benefit of KinNook etc over Audible or other means of downloading audiobooks? For myself, I love Audible, I can be read to while stuck in a traffic jam, or while lying on a sofa with eyes closed not straining to read the text on a Kindle. I have made it through many books I could never finish by reading text, e.g., Moby Dick (listened to it twice, it was so good; never got past first 200 pages when trying to read it), tons of Dickens, and now War and Peace.

for me listening isn't comparable to reading and the beauty of the kindle was you didn't get eyestrain reading it.

[Ray]

for me listening isn't comparable to reading and the beauty of the kindle was you didn't get eyestrain reading it.
Agree 100%. Audiobooks are a whole nother story and if that's what floats your boat, great. But we're talking about READING, which some folks still really like. And the Kindle/Nook/Sony etc don't cause any more eyestrain than an actual book and can cause less because you can adjust text size if you need to. I also have my Kindle account linked into my iPhone and use that to read for 10 or 20 minutes if I'm stuck in a waiting room somewhere. THAT would cause eyestrain if you did it extensively, but the "electronic ink" technology that the e-readers use is no different than reading very clear print on very good paper.

-Ray

[benb]

I think I can read the book much faster then I can listen to it, plus Audiobooks are way more expensive...

I've been debating this a lot. I got my mother a Kindle DX in August, and was planning on getting myself one this winter.. but now I'm trying to figure out if I should get the B&N one. I don't really see the device as the important part... it's more about how much do the books cost, what is available, what are the rules...

For kicks I went and looked at my wish list. There are 17 books on it right now, both Amazon and B&N have all of them in paperback. Amazons price is $20 cheaper then B&N's normal price if I was to buy all 17. But B&N's member price is $2 cheaper then Amazon's price. That costs $25/year though. Point for Amazon.

If you go to eBooks, Amazon has 8 of the books available as eBooks, B&N only has 6 of them. On top of that, Amazon's eBook prices are quite a bit better. Point for Amazon in this case.

B&N is using an industry wide copy protection scheme, and you can read the books on an iPhone, Nook, PC, or Mac. Amazon is using it's own scheme, and books can only be read on the Kindle or iPhone. This is a point for B&N.

B&N has this "lending" program. Amazon does not... Point for B&N.

That said, I assume Amazon is going to be forced to allow lending, and I know more people with Kindles, so if they do that, I'd have a better chance of being able to share books if I got a Kindle.

The annoying thing is you can't buy the device you want and then buy whatever books you want from whatever vendor. Hopefully that will shake out like it has with digital music.

[Ray]

How does having it password protected bring up ownership issues? You either have the password or you don't. I don't expect them to determine ownership, but I also don't think you should make it easy to use stolen property.
You're probably right. I'm sure there was something more they COULD do. My point is that I bet they thought long and hard about these issues and saw more downside than upside to getting involved in those kinds of issues. More downside than upside for THEM for sure, and possibly even for their customers. But I'm getting into pure conjecture here. None of which would take the sting out of how you're feeling.

Just out of curiosity, how many unread books did you have on your Kindle and still in your Amazon account when you lost it? The thing that I don't like, as Benb just alluded to, is that the only way you can get to those is to buy another Kindle or read them on a vastly inferior interface like an Iphone or Ipod touch. I really hope its not too long before all of the proprietary formats go the way of music drms and your content is your content and you can read it on 99% of the devices out there. In the short term, its probably not in Amazon's interest to open it up, but in the long term, once they have real competition, I'd bet it will be.

-Ray

[paulrad9]

Timely thread and I was shopping to buy a Kindle for the Mrs.

The international version was released earlier this week - for someone who goes overseas once a year, any benefit to someone in the US having the International version of Kindle?

[Ray]

Timely thread and I was shopping to buy a Kindle for the Mrs.

The international version was released earlier this week - for someone who goes overseas once a year, any benefit to someone in the US having the International version of Kindle?
The only advantage is you can order books wireless(ly) from overseas. If you only go once a year and its not a really extensive trip, you can probably load it up with books before you leave and never think about buying more books while gone. If you spend a LOT of time overseas, then it might be worthwhile. I tend to leave the country once a year or so for a week or two, but wouldn't spend any extra on the international version. If I lived overseas several months a year or traveled constantly, that would be another story. Other than that, the international version is indistinguishable from the Kindle 2. Same machine, better cellular contract, basically.

-Ray

[paulrad9]

Thanks, Ray, I just ordered the US version!

[dd74]

That Nook looks pretty cool. I've been somewhat resistant to this sort of tech. I keep thinking to myself what if I can't download certain books -- like old classics that aren't well-known authors. I mean, will The Nook have "North" by Celine. Who knows?

It's for the same reason I'm not that much into the iPod/iTunes. The music the Apple store sells isn't what I'm really interested in. Classical, Indy, and '80s stuff (especially to replace all my aging CDs), but Apple's selection just isn't there.

Oh well, sooner or later I'll have to jump into the water, I guess... :crap:

[scrubadub]

My wife got me a Kindle 2 for my birthday. It's a great device that we primarily use it for long plane flights. I get bored easily and read pretty quickly so carrying enough books to keep me amused is difficult. Anathem by Neal Stephenson anyone?

It's really nice to sit in the airport and not be limited to the tiny over-priced airport bookstore. The wireless connectivity was a brilliant move on Amazon's part.

That said, the limiting factor is that getting documents on to the Kindle is a pain. While it is relatively easy to plug-in to the computer to copy files over, I find that it's just plain inconvenient. I'm too cheap to pay Amazon to email it I guess. The key to the iPod's success wasn't just great hardware. It was the ease with which the MP3s were synced and managed from the desktop. The Kindle needs the same (and better native PDF support).

[1centaur]

One, on ownership, I think the police could demand Amazon's records on the switchover and if the new user could not produce proof of purchase then you'd get your Kindle back.

Second, just as a note, some libraries are buying Kindles as a way to reduce the costs of buying and replacing paper books. The world is changing.

[rugbysecondrow]

One, on ownership, I think the police could demand Amazon's records on the switchover and if the new user could not produce proof of purchase then you'd get your Kindle back.

Second, just as a note, some libraries are buying Kindles as a way to reduce the costs of buying and replacing paper books. The world is changing.


On that same note, I wonder it some libraries (online or local brick and mortor) will get into digital book lending. Yes, this seems to be rapidly changing. For me, the question is do I wait a little while longer for this to develop, or do I pick a product and roll with it for a while (I would go with the Nook)?

Regardless, I am going to wait until some of the Christmas sales come out to see if prices changes any. Also, at least with the Nook, I can go to a Barnes n Noble and handling one before buying it.

Thanks, good discussion

[malcolm]

One, on ownership, I think the police could demand Amazon's records on the switchover and if the new user could not produce proof of purchase then you'd get your Kindle back.

Second, just as a note, some libraries are buying Kindles as a way to reduce the costs of buying and replacing paper books. The world is changing.


With out going into long boring detail that is basically what needs to happen. Amazon has a legal line you have to contact, no real person ever answers you have your choice of email or voice mail. Basically they tell you to file a police report and then have the police contact amazon again via email or voicemail and from there I suppose amazon will release the info to them at which point they have to contact the police in the persons locale and have them contact the person in possession of the property. The likely hood of that chain of events happening is slim. I did file a report and it was handed up to a detective and supposedly he emailed amazon, but I've not heard back from him and several calls have not been returned. He wasn't very hopeful that the other dept would be helpful, but also doesn't seem interested in helping himself. I pursued this mostly on principle. I was disgusted that amazon clearly makes it easy to use stolen goods for their profit, but mostly I was pissed that someone picked up my property that had my business cards in it with multiple means of contacting me and didn't even wait 24 hours to steal it. I know it seems ridiculous on my part but the whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way

[csm]

I just read about the Nook. that thing looks pretty nifty. I want one!!!!

[simple]

In terms of the device itself, what makes the Nook so much better than Kindle2? Seems to be the same size device, and I think the color preview screen actually decreases 'page size'. Am I missing what makes this so cool?

[Ray]

In terms of the device itself, what makes the Nook so much better than Kindle2? Seems to be the same size device, and I think the color preview screen actually decreases 'page size'. Am I missing what makes this so cool?
My only complaint with the kindle is the keyboard taking up real estate on a device that could be smaller wihout it. I use it so rarely that a touh screen keyboard would more than suffice. So the Nook eliminates the keyboard but instead of making the whole package smaller, they stick that little color screen down there, also overkill IMHO.

Long and short is that I doubt either is functionally "better" but they use slightly different approaches to make themselves stand out a bit. Once you open a book and start reading, none of the extraneous crap matters as long as you can easily and intuitively turn the pages. The kindle is fine in that regard, I'd guess the Nook will be too. So it all ultimately comes down to software availability.

-Ray

[MattTuck]

For what it's worth, I'm waiting for Plastic Logic to release their product.

Looks to be awesome.

http://www.plasticlogic.com/

[Acotts]

^^then of course, the apple Tablet will be out, and you'll need that too.