what's a pure climber?

[yeehawfactor]

the feb cyclesport is another solid issue featuring the great climbers. some are described as pure, for others it says something like "while not a pure climber."

[Dekonick]

Ummmm - not me. :D

[toaster]

A pure climber can't sprint, time trial, or breakaway from the peloton. His team tows him to the start of the climb and he and other pure climbers reach the top first. The climber gets points for his effort and/or may improve his position on GC. He sometimes can descend and keep the gap he has on the rest of the peloton but will lose it to great descenders and later to rouleurs on the flats.

[jeffg]

a non-GC contender, i.e. what toaster said. I often find it odd that people do not describe Armstrong as a true climber. I say if he rides all those "pure climbers" off his wheel and then crushes them in the TTs as well, then those other riders should be called "one-dimensional also-rans" if he's not a climber.

I could see the "not a pure climber" label applied to Indurain, Ullrich, etc. since those riders generally sought to limit their losses in the mountains with the occassional mountain top win. Again, though, Mig or Jan were/are capable of putting in vicious attacks in the mountains, so I really think the above analysis is most apposite. ;)

[Too Tall]

I always liked that term. It seemed a compliment for riders who while noted for their climbing dominance still had success ,if ocassional, in other areas eg. 1 day classics.

[William]

The one who stays ahead of me to the top of the climb. :rolleyes:

Ditto on toaster.

William

[Dr. Doofus]

some 130-pound gnat with a high VO2 who can't do anything else and needs a guy like Seasn Yates just to keep him in the peloton if there's a 10mph cross wind

[sspielman]

Some Examples:
Marco Pantani, Roberto Heras, Roberto Laiseka, Gilberto Simoni

[Ray]

a non-GC contender, i.e. what toaster said. I often find it odd that people do not describe Armstrong as a true climber. I say if he rides all those "pure climbers" off his wheel and then crushes them in the TTs as well, then those other riders should be called "one-dimensional also-rans" if he's not a climber.

I could see the "not a pure climber" label applied to Indurain, Ullrich, etc. since those riders generally sought to limit their losses in the mountains with the occassional mountain top win. Again, though, Mig or Jan were/are capable of putting in vicious attacks in the mountains, so I really think the above analysis is most apposite. ;)
I don't think it's limited to non-GC contenders. They could be GC contenders, but only because their dominance in the mountains allowed them to limit their losses in the Time Trials. Like Pantani at his artificial best. Or Heras in the Vueltas that he's won. A mirror image of Indurain who, as noted, was dominant in the TTs and generally rode defensively in the mountains.

The only reason Lance isn't referred to as a pure climber is that he can be so dominant in the TT also. He is or has been as good a climber as most, if not all, pure climbers, but he isn't as pure as they are, by definition. He can do other stuff too - they basically can't.

-Ray

And, oh yeah, the other definition is "the opposite of me".

[Kevan]

well, social of course. :D

[Roy E. Munson]

Some examples: Marco Pantani, Roberto Heras, Roberto Laiseka, Roberto Simoni

Who is this Roberto Simoni guy? Is he an up and coming junior rider or an espoir?

[blifford]

Hi JeffG,

I think most of the cycling commentators, like Phil and Paul (yes, and Bob too), are very reluctant to refer to Armstrong as anything but the "total package".... they also really seem to love the fact that more one-dimensional "pure" climbers are unable to distance themselve from LA, and often struggle just to keep pace on the terrain in which they are supposed to dominate.

When the pure climbers lose minutes (or hours) on a single mountain stage to a guy who is also the top time trialist, it really looks like the Tour is almost impossible to win without being a stud in all areas except the field sprints. And LA is even no slouch in a small group sprint.

Your comments about LA being a "true climber" are very accurate, but he is so complete as a rider that the term "pure climber" doesn't do him enough justice... I think that's why the commentators speak that way.

And "pure climber" really doesn't describe a large percentage of the great Tour de France winners... most of them are also formidable time trialists, some to the point where it eclipses their climbing (Indurain, Hinault, Ullrich) or is at least equal to it (Merckx, LeMond, Roche, Lance).

Since I've been following the Tour (1984), only two "pure climbers" have won... Pedro Delgado and Marco Pantani, and both of them profited immensely from the failure of their competitors to adequately prepare for the race.

The Giro and Vuelta are a little more open to having a pure climber steal the show, and as such can be a little more exciting to watch, especially compared to the Tour during the Indurain years.

cliffy

[Ti Designs]

Pure climber: A rider who goes the same speed uphill and downhill. I had a teammate like that when I was racing, in the Bear Mountain stage race in NY he took 4th overall in the time trial up Perkins drive, then lost 15 minutes on the road race when he got dropped on the downhill in the road race. It's mostly power to weight ratio, but there's an attitude that most pure climbers have, and a total lack of fear of steep grades. I worked with Aimee Vassee (winner at Mt Washington this year) over the summer, she feared fast flat sections, she hated potholes (Pleasent St in Belmont is nothing but), but as soon as we got to a long hill she would set a pace that had my legs screaming - and she would be talking to me at the same time. She's also about 85 pounds and can't go outside on windy days...

[yeehawfactor]

thanks guys. richard virenque is not a pure climber then, correct?

[weisan]

Pure climber = high power-to-weight ratio (physical) + high altitude fearlessness (mental) + high pain threshold (physiological) ie. ability to tolerate pain or willingness to suffer like a pig AND actually enjoying it!

Lance is not a "pure" climber in the strictest sense as in "born with it" but over the years, he has worked on improving all the above attributes in order to be a GC contender in the grand tours.

Eddy Merckx is not a pure climber but his bulldog tenacity, cannibalistic instincts and "train harder than anybody else" attitude pushed him to perform well on the mountains.

[Dr. Doofus]

ricky on epo -- climber

rick au naturale -- climbing domestique

his last years were the most impressive...domestique climber (think Tricky Beltran or Theirry Claverolat) talent...but rode his butt off to get the results that his EPO stardom demanded



and a post-roy addendum -- 2001 PT was amazing...here's a guy who is, at best, an above average but not outstanding climber, who would never be confused with a rouleur by a blind man, who got caught by the yellow jersey in a TT when he was EPO'd to the gills, now riding himself silly to win in a long break...his last years were something, if only because he showed something off EPO that he never showed while on it -- guts

[Roy E. Munson]

OK, now everyone go watch the 2001 Paris Tours.

[shiftinjon]

A pure climber is one who's mother was a virgin when she married his father, then both his parents were killed in a great tragedy and he was raised by nuns, eats only a vegetarian diet, goes to mass regularly, drinks no alcohol or coffee, and does no drugs.

Very few pure climbers.

[yeehawfactor]

so does it naturally follow that there are pure sprinters?

[Dr. Doofus]

yup

the cat that can win race after race, as long as its under 200k, but can't get past the first week in a Tour or win a classic...

[jerk]

pure climber?

a rider (preferably colombian) who weighs a buck ten soaking wet and can attack and vary the tempo on climbs to split up the pace and the peloton and seperate the men from the midgets.....in this case the midgets always win....

lance is a pure climber who can also time trial and used to be a rouleur so there....
marco was a pure climber.....
the darling of the french house wife and pieds-noir everywhere, richard virenque is also a pure climber.....
iban mayo is a pure climber......
jan ullrich is not although he did come in second in the alpe d'huez time trial...for the jerk a pure climber can attack on climbs.....all great cyclists can ride you or the jerk off their wheel in a minute....a pure climber can do it in 5 seconds.

jerk

[jeffg]

pure climber?

for the jerk a pure climber can attack on climbs......

jerk

Yeah, the Jan of old could attack on climbs and did this year on the stage to Villard-de-Lans. When he went the pack just evaporated, Voeckler lost yellow, and it might have been a bit hairy without Jens "the machine" Voigt and Floyd to chase down Jan. Mayo ... he had abandoned by the time Jan attacked -- pure :butt:

[dauwhe]

Mayo ... he had abandoned by the time Jan attacked -- pure :butt:

Didn't it turn out that Mayo had mono?

[weisan]

yup

the cat that can win race after race, as long as its under 200k, but can't get past the first week in a Tour or win a classic...

The only exception: Robbie McE-Worm.
As a side, I don't know what the exact words are but the modern-day badger said something to the effect of:

Quote #1:
If it's all flat stages in the Tour, I will win all of them

Quote #2:
If he won't shut up, I will fill it with my fist. (to Lance)

[jerk]

Yeah, the Jan of old could attack on climbs and did this year on the stage to Villard-de-Lans. When he went the pack just evaporated, Voeckler lost yellow, and it might have been a bit hairy without Jens "the machine" Voigt and Floyd to chase down Jan. Mayo ... he had abandoned by the time Jan attacked -- pure :butt:


riding people off your wheel in any steady manner is not what the jerk would describe as an "attack"....it is more impressive to be sure, but a pure climber puts the distance on his opponents quickly, generally with a fierce out of the saddle acceleration.....the way big mig, eddy and ullrich due it is a steady increase in tempo with the hope (or knowledge in some cases) that no one will be able to hold on.....that's what the jerk meant
jerk.

[wanderingwheel]

I consider myself a pure climber, are they any others out there? I've only ridden with one or two other pure climbers. Same speed uphill and down? Yup, been there. At the mercy of the wind? Always, which also means that a tailwind pushes me faster than most. Enjoy climbing? I view hills in races as recovery zones because my heart rate will drop out of the red zone and I will ride back into the lead group that dropped me on the flats. Of course hanging on during the descent is usually the hardest part of the race.

As for pure sprinters, go to the track and watch the guys who can't stand with thier feet together.

Sean

[BBB]

A couple of comments:

I reckon if you go back to the 97 Tour and watch the mountain stage that Ullrich won and took yellow as a result, he did in fact get out of the saddle to attack to drop Virenque and co. However, in general terms, I agree with the Jerk, Ullrich, like Indurain before him, is reliant on setting a very high tempo on the climbs that hopefully the others cannot handle. This seems to work against all opponents bar one.

McEwen supposedly made that remark to Armstrong in the 02 Tour I think. Well, it may have showed some guts, it could have backfired as from memory US Postal 'helped' Telekom in the later stages of that race when the Green Jersey was still up for grabs. McEwen has a bit of a mouth, but seems to back it up with results.