Any cyclists here with a Crossfit total??

[toaster]

From the Crossfit Journal:

"The CrossFit Total reflects an athlete's functional strength capacity more accurately than any other test, writes Mark Rippetoe, author of Starting Strength and owner of The Wichita Falls Athletic Club/CrossFit Wichita Falls.

The CrossFit Total is the sum of the best of three attempts at the squat, the press, and the deadlift. All three lifts are done while standing on the floor. They require minimal and inexpensive equipment. They are not technique- dependent to the extent of the Olympic lifts, yet they require technical proficiency beyond mere passing familiarity. They are safe when performed correctly, since they can all be performed without spotters—alone in a garage if necessary."

So, squat, deadlift and shoulder press totals...anybody?

[bkboom123]

are these just our 1 rep max?

[Louis]

reflects an athlete's functional strength capacity

If that test is a good one, then I'd say cyclists don't have very good "functional strength" if only because anything that requires significant one-rep upper-body strength is not emphasized.

[toaster]

One rep max.

You need a warm-up, obviously. To get your one rep max, typically you would choose a weight you know you can do three reps with followed by lifting a heavier weight you are very confident that you can do a solid one rep with. The next heavier weight will be based on how that last weight felt and should be either a PR or very close to it.

The only reason, or excuse, that cyclists would not have significant upper body strength is because they don't practice it.

A very good cyclist won't rank as an elite lifter necessarily but that's no reason he/she cannot have a functional strength rating that is better than novice or intermediate by Crossfit standards.

[bkboom123]

Well I have never done one rep max with any of my lifts. But last night I Did 3 sets of 10 at 205 pounds on the dead .

As far shoulder press, I typically use 2-50 pound dumbbells(one each hand) for military press at 4 sets of 8.

Squats would be my weakest lift as i only workout with 185 pounds, 4 sets of 10.

As far my one rep max and crossfit strength I would not have a clue. It is fairly useless to do those unless you are trying to impress someone by saying "I bench xxx amount of pounds".

This gives no indication of muscular endurance or useful strength. For example, if I don;t lift for two months like at the end of this summer, and go back and start lifting again, my strength on my first lift isn't too much less then where I was at before. The real difference is in the endurance, I would be toast by the time I got to my second exercise, and would be lifting far far less....

So I am not sure how useful crossfit strength would be as a measuring tool to determine strength.

[benb]

It's worth checking into CrossFit, I had not heard of it till a few months ago, maybe most cyclists haven't, but it's becoming extremely popular and lots of it's adherents are practically religious zealots about telling everyone it's the greatest thing ever.

It's a little weird though.. and seems to have very high potential for injury, there are a lot of ballistic and complex weight lifting moves & calisthenics that seem likely to hurt people who aren't coached along carefully. It also has some oddball elements, they are clearly trying to use a bit of a "sex sells" marketing practice, i.e. you workout to get laid, and the founder is the guru-type figure who is quite out of shape himself and doesn't do his own workouts.

I've squatted up to about 300lbs, though I haven't done it in a long time and I rarely think it's that productive to try and throw large amounts of weight around. I doubt my 1-rep max would ever be much higher then that. Not sure how much I can dead lift. My hands become the primary limiter, I doubt I can go much beyond 200lbs even though my back and legs would probably do it. Shoulder press, weak as hell.. doubt I can go beyond 100lbs. My shoulders are by far my weak point. I'm about 175lbs. My weight lifting discipline in the winter the last few years has been pretty pathetic... I actually spend a lot of time doing sets to 20 reps after seeing that in Cyclists Training bible. I usually switch up between sets of 10 reps and sets of 20 reps or something, 1 month periods.

Oh and he is frigging nuts if he tells anyone to go try one rep maxes on squats and shoulder presses in their garage without a spotter.

[toaster]

It helps to understand what strength and power mean. This is often a topic when discussing power or strength in cycling terms.

Strength is maximum tension, power is force x velocity. There is no reason a cyclist cannot possess strength and still not have excessive mass. Developing power is really the goal anyway.

The Crossfit total, the sum of three maximal lifts, deadlift, squat and shoulder press is a test of tension and power. Since two of these lifts involve the lower body and only the shoulder press tests the upper body, a cyclist can have impressive squat and deadlift totals and only compromise the shoulder press one-rep max.

[fiamme red]

It's the same as a powerlifting total, with the bench replaced by a military press. There's no question that a military press is safer than a bench press, and it can be done without a spotter.

I don't see how this is related to Crossfit, with its workout of the day that's mainly aimed at endurance (i.e., many reps with lighter weights), not absolute strength.

[toaster]

I don't see how this is related to Crossfit, with its workout of the day that's mainly aimed at endurance (i.e., many reps with lighter weights), not absolute strength.[/QUOTE]

WOD is one thing, but very often you'll see something like 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 back squat which means 7 sets of one rep max lifts and typically you'll work up to a bigger weight in sucessive sets.

Met Con or metabolic conditioning is interval style training.

[fiamme red]

WOD is one thing, but very often you'll see something like 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 back squat which means 7 sets of one rep max lifts and typically you'll work up to a bigger weight in sucessive sets.If someone wants to get better at squats, deadlifts, and military presses, he should concentrate on those exercises. Doing the WOD won't help him much, and indeed will probably be counter-productive.

[benb]

I had been looking for a while and there were WODs that had small #s of reps with high weights at some points.

I think that was the whole point.. sometimes they are going for muscular endurance, sometimes they're throwing in a weightlifting "force" workout, sometimes they want you to go run instead.

Part of the thing seems to be that they want to say doing their WODs is better training for your sport then doing your sport-specific workouts. So they vary things to a ridiculous level. But at some point they have to do something that is measurable against other sports, so it would make sense a gym would use something like squat/DL/press for a "test" since they are mostly targetting themselves as being "better" then normal weightlifting routines.

I don't know if it's official, but certainly some proponents would claim doing the WOD is better training for those 3 exercises then doing the exercises themselves.

[fiamme red]

Here's the Crossfit philosophy pushed to its absurd conclusion:

http://www.gotrimax.com/TriMaxBmac.htm

If Chris McCormack came to you and said "I want to win Kona this year (again)" how would you train him?

I’d tell him I can’t train him. An athlete like that is such a specialist that it would take me 2-3 years just to get him moving correctly enough to handle what I wanted to do to him. If I had 2-3 years and we could change his nutrition, and put some size and strength on him, all the while he still could move efficiently, then I would never let him do an unnecessary mile or minute of training again. Unfortunately, he probably wouldn’t be able to wrap his head around that, and have a break down, and secretly go out and swim/bike/run real long. I can’t give you his code for training because they are all different, but I can tell you he would not only not survive with me but would not win Kona if I only had a year.

This from someone whose Ironman time is 11:33. :rolleyes:

[Oirad]

fiamme red and forum friends,

The press, backsquat and the deadlift are important to determining benchmark strength because of the big muscles involved. I suppose one could include other exercises, like one rep max pullup with weight or, as fiamme red said, benchpress (for powerlifters). The deadlift being the mother of them all. I think front squatting is actually more important.

I've done Crossfit on my own, doing the workouts for about a year a couple of years ago. It purports to promote random programming (at least to the user not to the coaches) and therefore hits mainly strength endurance, although power and cardio are important also and are frequently cycled into the programming. I'm now doing Performancemenu.com (Catalyst Athletics), which is primarily the Oly lifts wth some assisted lifts and short metabolic conditioning workouts a la Crossfit (but typically shorter tan CF). I won't give you my pathetic numbers in any of lifts, although my max one rep deadlift isn't bad. At 127lbs (Yeah, that is what I weigh) I can deadlift 300lbs. Not bad for an old guy either.

Is Crossfit or similar explosive lifts training useful to cycling? I think it is, in the same way that being in overall good shape generally helps you in most any sport. Doing the Olympic lifts might be more useful to track racers than to road racers, although there will be some carryover to road and to mtb I imagine. That is probably obvious to all of you though. I'm a recreational rider who frequently rides with some experienced cyclists and former racers. They can kick my ass, for sure, and that is because they have lots more experience and they ride more miles than I do (besides any differences in physical talent between us). However, that said, I hold my own and I attribute it to doing the kind of gym work that I do and also to riding the fixed gear a lot. I can't quantify any of this, of course, so this is all terribly impressionistic. But then again, I lift weights because I like to lift weights, and I also like to ride my bicycle.

-- Oirad

[toaster]

Weightlifting won't make you a better cyclist, but let me ask wants to to a weak cyclist?

Also, my interest in this is if you don't train to be strong and explosive and program your nervous system in that manner how do expect to attack or sprint on the bike.

[rugbysecondrow]

Crossfit is great for what it is, a Cross-Functional stregnth and fitness program. Not vanity muscles, not cycling specific, not running or swimming, but a cross training that will make people on the whole more fit. I think the trainer was honest when he answered the question about the ironman triathlete...this program isn't made for fine tuned athletes at the very peak. Firefighters, cops, soldiers...people who need functional strength for their job or safety swear by this and similar workout programs. It is all the rage with the Army and Marines in Iraq.

checkout www.crossfitendurance.com too

[wildboar]

You are best off sticking to the kettlebell if you want to take anything from the crossfit routines. They are the only thing weight lifting-wise that I've found to be comparable to the pain and nervous system explosiveness that you experience on the bike.

Stick to the 16 and 24kg size and get good at doing massive amounts of swings. I was never able to maintain the leg strength that riding alone would give me. In the off-season in the great white northern plains where it was impossible to ride, coming off the bike in the fall, I took a college weight lifting course for a requirement and actually got weaker at the end of 3 months on the leg press.

The good thing about kettlebells is that they will give you "wirey" strength and not bulk you up at all unless you go to the bigger 32kg and larger bells.

http://crossfitplacer.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/kettlebells20lance20armstrong2.jpg

[bshell]

I'm pretty new to crossfit bit I can say my experience is nothing like benb's middle paragraph.

Also, to point to one thing like the kettle bell as a worthwhile activity is the complete opposite of the idea behind crossfit.

I can already tell that I'm a stronger cyclist and after riding for 20 years and running for 6 years, I've never felt more weak, inflexible, and humbled than at crossfit.

[toaster]

Kettlebells are great. Alot of the work is targeting the posterior chain which is the part of the body capable of producing the most power.

I've benefitted greatly from training within the two systems, kettlebells and Crossfit and notice improved fitness on and off the bike. Certainly what's changed is improved joint mobility and better functional core awareness and power.

Earlier in the week was my first attempt at a Crossfit total with a 370lbs deadlift, 325lbs squat and 135lbs shoulder press at 180 lbs bodyweight for a CF total of 830 lbs.

Crossfit has a FAQ page that will tell you how your total ranks whether novice, intermediate, advanced or elite.

[fiamme red]

checkout www.crossfitendurance.com tooThat website is Brian MacKenzie's, the person interviewed in the article (http://www.gotrimax.com/TriMaxBmac.htm) I linked. He implied there that he knows a lot more about training than Chris McCormack. Well, how many elite triathletes have come out of the Crossfit Endurance program? :rolleyes:

[rugbysecondrow]

That website is Brian MacKenzie's, the person interviewed in the article (http://www.gotrimax.com/TriMaxBmac.htm) I linked. He implied there that he knows a lot more about training than Chris McCormack. Well, how many elite triathletes have come out of the Crossfit Endurance program? :rolleyes:


I think you are really reading this differently than me. He specifically says, "I can’t give you his code for training because they are all different, but I can tell you he would not only not survive with me but would not win Kona if I only had a year."

I get from this that he knows there is more than one way, but he thinks his is the best. No foul in that.

If you read the blog on the CF Endurance site, you will see that most of the people are busy folks who use intervals to maximize the training time they have, not to become elite athletes.

[DukeHorn]

Interesting. My rock climbing gym offers CrossFit for free. I'll have to check into it (winter sounds like a good time to get started).