View Full Version : organized ride registration fees
I saw thread developing on another forum about not paying for a week-long organized ride and feeling that is ok. I am wondering how many folks actually pay for the organized rides they may do? I feel compelled to pay even if I miss out on the free t-shirt or whatever. I guess I look at it as they've gone through the trouble of organizing it, they aren't doing it for the profitability of it and anything leftover probably goes to a worthy cause.
Steve in SLO
10-14-2009, 06:03 PM
I'm with you.
If you are taking part in an organized ride, you should pay up.
Waldo
10-14-2009, 06:06 PM
I've done both -- paid and not -- though most of the time I pay. When I don't pay I have friends get me a few pieces of food and fill my bottles here and there. I don't gorge at rest stops like I might when I pay.
What's annoying is when you pay and the support/food/whatever is not worth the money.
It has happened to me more then once. Why did I pay you $30 if I still have to stop at a gas station to buy food?
The thought had never crossed my mind to do an organized ride without paying though. My alternative is just go do the ride another day by myself, or go do a totally different ride. That's kind of lame to go along and not pay I guess.
rnhood
10-14-2009, 06:27 PM
Weekend biking events are virtually never driven from a profit motive. On the contrary, they are generally focused on supporting a charitable cause, organization or local township type activity. They are often staffed by volunteers who give their time in support of these activities. If someone participates in these events without paying, they are cheating the very people selfishly donating their time, as well as the organizations being supported through the event. Its no different that picking up food in a grocery store and walking out without paying. Anyone who would do this type thing is of little integrity and is a disgrace to society.
One day is bad enough and a whole week is inexcusable.
I am glad to hear the responses. it just reinforces what I think about the folks that hang out here vs some of the other (non-bike related) forums that I keep up with.
I wonder what sort of response I'd get acrossed the hall.... just kidding.
nahtnoj
10-14-2009, 07:00 PM
If you don't want to pay to do an organized ride isn't it easy enough to just go ride on your own? Or get a cue sheet and ride the course the next week? Poaching is super lame, especially when these rides are either fundraisers for the local club or to eradicate (insert your most hated disease here).
How is it even possible poach an entire week? I mean, wouldn't part of the support be accommodations in that case?
not for this particular week long ride. we're talking about ragbrai.
sjbraun
10-14-2009, 08:42 PM
Poaching is a new term for this practice. In Tucson we refer to those who don't pay as riding "bandito."
I've done it, but I can't say I'm proud of having done so. And I wouldn't do it again.
I know the bill for police services at this year's El Tour de Tucson will approach $150,000.
If you're gonna ride, you really gotta pay.
Steve- riding the 109 mile El Tour event on a fixed gear this year
DukeHorn
10-14-2009, 08:50 PM
How about an organized club poaching at a rest stop for a charity ride?
I was doing Waves 2 Wine and this group of 12 or so came in (most of them on their custom LandSharks) at a rest stop, loaded up and then they all took off opposite the bike route.
93legendti
10-14-2009, 09:02 PM
One day is bad enough and a whole week is inexcusable.
I agree. It sounds like stealing to me.
BumbleBeeDave
10-14-2009, 09:23 PM
Poaching an organized ride is sleazy
One day is bad enough and a whole week is inexcusable.
Edit/Delete Message
+1 on that one! :no: :butt:
BBD
fourflys
10-14-2009, 09:25 PM
poaching is a dirtbag move if you ask me.... If I feel the cost of a ride is too high for me (as some are here in SoCal), I just don't do that ride....
Blue Jays
10-14-2009, 09:48 PM
Some rides can be done anytime because routes are oftentimes identified via spraypainted stencils on the asphalt.
handsomerob
10-14-2009, 09:53 PM
I've done both -- paid and not -- though most of the time I pay. When I don't pay I have friends get me a few pieces of food and fill my bottles here and there. I don't gorge at rest stops like I might when I pay.
Two weeks ago, I chaired a century that all net profits (about $5000) went to a local children's hospital. I spent a lot of time coordinating this ride, asked a lot of people to volunteer their time, and even ended up taking time off work to finish putting this ride together, so maybe I am a little sensitive to this.... but I read, and re-read, and then re-re-read your post and it seems you think it is ok to get friends that pay for a ride raid the SAG's for you?
Seriously dude... ***?
I swear if a "friend" that didn't pay for a ride asked me to grab him some stuff from a SAG, I would call him (or her) out on the spot and tell him to go find somewhere else to ride and someone else to ride with.
rustychisel
10-15-2009, 12:19 AM
Well, being righteous is one thing, and in that instance I agree with you, but...
the Tour Downunder Ride repatriates profits (yes, there are profitable organised rides) to the government Tourism Department and charged fees to the people who ran the event for them (BikeSA). No problem there, but the rides often start in one location and finish in entirely another, leading to logistical problems.
In getting my partner to the right place so she could enjoy her ride I had to drive to the finish, park the car, then ride back and join the route so that I could meet her and my friends. Which I did.
Yes, I'm a freeloader. I made no attempt to deceive anyone, didn't wear the official jersey (comes with price of ride, I've got a million of 'em) and made sure not to tax the meagre resources by not using their designated rest stops or water facilities.
It's not something I would do regularly, nor necessarily condone, but needs must. Oh, you can take my word for it they've got a lot more out of my partner and I than we've got out of them. The ledger is very unbalanced.
93legendti
10-15-2009, 06:27 AM
...No problem there, but the rides often start in one location and finish in entirely another, leading to logistical problems.
...It's not something I would do regularly, nor necessarily condone, but needs must. Oh, you can take my word for it they've got a lot more out of my partner and I than we've got out of them. The ledger is very unbalanced.
Interesting analysis...
I've never poached a ride. One year on one of our local club centuries, I did the ride solo the day before because it was clear it was gonna pour on the designated day, taking advantage only of the route markings on the road. Found a couple of convenience stores for refills. The morning of the designated ride, it was sure enough pouring, but I drove down to the start and paid 'em anyway because it was a fundraiser to keep the club going and they do some good stuff in the community. They were so thankful they loaded me up with energy bars and bagels for the car, because they knew they were gonna get a really small turnout in all that rain and they had a bunch of extra leftover food.
I had a friend once who poached a ride, but didn't use any of the resources except I think a porta-potty. I didn't have a problem with that. He was broke at the time, he usually paid, he just wanted the company and the ride and made sure not to take any of the food or water at the rest-stops. So I don't think its necessarily ALWAYS wrong, but it is if you're using the food and other resources without paying.
-Ray
paulrad9
10-15-2009, 07:28 AM
edited - not relevant to the thread
Some rides can be done anytime because routes are oftentimes identified via spraypainted stencils on the asphalt.
My weekend ride is the same route as an organized ride (Seven Hills of Kirkland)...cool ride, lots of climbing, different lengths, etc. Found it by following the markers on the pavement about 10 years ago.
I've never done the organized ride, and the weekend they have it (Memorial Day), I ride somewhere else.
Agreed with above....poaching a ride is a dirtbag move.
veloduffer
10-15-2009, 08:54 AM
Most of the organized rides are charity rides or fundraisers for the local bike club. If I participate, I pay.
There seems to be some cost-benefit-for-me analysis on some posts. It shouldn't.
There's a participation fee and proceeds generally benefit a non-profit cause. For bike clubs, it is their largest source of revenue.
If you think it costs too much, then don't do the ride. It's a simple matter of ethics.
And it's hard to justify skipping the fee, especially if you're bike cost more than $2k.
I've done a few supported ~$35 - $40 organized rides, but no "raise pledge" $ rides. Never poached, seems to me it would detract from fully enjoying the ride...
bzbvh5
10-15-2009, 09:15 AM
Charity rides – I always pay.
Charity rides that don’t provide enough food, water, or sag – I don’t do again. And I don’t show up and do it without paying
Week long rides – they organize it, carry your luggage, provide a place to stay for a good price (RAGBRAI, Oklahoma Freewheel, Bike Across Kansas) – I’ll pay ever time.
Week long events – you’re on your own, no sag, start when you want, ride whichever route you want – I know of one event where about 350 people pay and another 300 just show up and do what they want without paying because the result is the same. I must admit, I am in the latter group.
Like most of you, it’s about bang for your buck.
Pay up.
To do otherwise is unseemly.
BengeBoy
10-15-2009, 10:26 AM
Agreed with above....poaching a ride is a dirtbag move.
+1
Even if you're out on the road at the same time as an organized ride, *not* planning to use any support from the organizers, the organizers and volunteers are still more than likely going to rush to your assistance if you have a serious accident, medical issues, or mechanical problem. You're consuming resources -- even if it's just spare emergency capacity and the watchful eyes of the support people -- if you're out on the road at the same time as an organized ride.
Unless they roll up the pavement and pack it away for storage, you can always ride the same route on another day.
Like I said I've never "poached" but I think I have a little more sympathy for why someone would do this then most of you.
I think I'd have a hard time doing it ever on a charity ride, but I never do those anyway, just because they seem a little weird and awfully strange way to raise money.
But anyway the problem is organized rides are very "buyer beware". I've crashed on a ride I paid $35 for, and rode in to the SAG stop, and it turned out there was no first aid available.. I had a little rash, but wanted to finish the ride, they gave me no choice, they could call an ambulance for me. So I ended up riding tacking on an extra ~10 miles of riding to go find a pharmacy and fix myself up for the rest of the ride.
It's practically been the norm that I've paid $30-35 and some of the rest stops don't have food, or are all out of water, or are placed at horrible distances. (E.x. nothing but water till mile 75 of a 100+ mile ride on a 90 degree day... ***?)
So I just don't do these rides but I can see how someone might go down a path of not wanting to pay. I have rarely felt like I got what I paid for when I paid. But that is me, a crowd of 1000 other cyclists on a route does not significantly enhance a ride for me.
mikki
10-15-2009, 10:39 AM
I always pay. Although it is true that the roads are free really, it is different when riding within an organized ride. To not pay seems like shoplifting the ride to me.
SoCalSteve
10-15-2009, 10:58 AM
I always pay. Although it is true that the roads are free really, it is different when riding within an organized ride. To not pay seems like shoplifting the ride to me.
The roads are free, but the support, SAG stops, food, restrooms, etc. all cost money...
If you are on the same roads, but do not use any of the above mentioned amenities, then yes...the roads are free.
Just sayin'
Steve
PS: I always pay, its the right thing to do.
Ti Designs
10-15-2009, 11:04 AM
I've only done one organized ride without paying - but there was a reason. A group of us wanted to do the spring century, but I had to be at work by noon and others had time conflicts. So we did something really dumb, we started at 4:00AM. There was nobody at the registration table, I didn't get a shirt and we didn't see a single food stop the whole time. On the up side, parking was a snap and the porta-potty was minty fresh.
I know a lot of the people who give their time to work rest stops or arrow rides. To not pay for a ride is saying there time has no value, much like trying on shoes at the bike shop and then ordering on-line. What goes around comes around - or at least it should, so I always give discounts to those who put the time and effort into making organized rides happen.
People come up with all kinds of excuses but it all comes down to being responsible. Guess that's too much to ask...
Elefantino
10-15-2009, 11:09 AM
We call it "pirating" and I've done it once, a century that was run by a for-profit org.
I took no water or food from sag stops. The only facilities I used were open to the public anyway. And the roads were those that I regularly use for weekend rides.
I didn't feel bad about it.
Call me a putz.
jlwdm
10-15-2009, 12:37 PM
Okay. You are a putz.
Jeff
Waldo
10-15-2009, 12:52 PM
How about an organized club poaching at a rest stop for a charity ride?
I was doing Waves 2 Wine and this group of 12 or so came in (most of them on their custom LandSharks) at a rest stop, loaded up and then they all took off opposite the bike route.
They weren't wearing blue and yellow kit and ride Sharks painted in matching colors were they? :) They paid at Levi's Fondo -- must have bankrupted the club.
Waldo
10-15-2009, 12:59 PM
Two weeks ago, I chaired a century that all net profits (about $5000) went to a local children's hospital. I spent a lot of time coordinating this ride, asked a lot of people to volunteer their time, and even ended up taking time off work to finish putting this ride together, so maybe I am a little sensitive to this.... but I read, and re-read, and then re-re-read your post and it seems you think it is ok to get friends that pay for a ride raid the SAG's for you?
Seriously dude... ***?
I swear if a "friend" that didn't pay for a ride asked me to grab him some stuff from a SAG, I would call him (or her) out on the spot and tell him to go find somewhere else to ride and someone else to ride with.
Dude, the F is (to add to my OP): I wouldn't freeload a charity ride, a "regular" century may be another matter -- and I've poached that all of once. That ride went off in dumping rain and people manning the rest stops were begging us to take food because half of the 1,000 people who'd signed up wimped out and either didn't show up or quit once it started pouring. I'll add that I believe it's quite a common practice nowadays, not that this fact justifies the practice.
H1449-6
10-15-2009, 01:22 PM
It's simply not OK. Who says otherwise?
snip
the porta-potty was minty fresh.
Now I know you've been in the bike biz far too long.
handsomerob
10-15-2009, 10:24 PM
Dude, the F is (to add to my OP): I wouldn't freeload a charity ride, a "regular" century may be another matter -- and I've poached that all of once. That ride went off in dumping rain and people manning the rest stops were begging us to take food because half of the 1,000 people who'd signed up wimped out and either didn't show up or quit once it started pouring. I'll add that I believe it's quite a common practice nowadays, not that this fact justifies the practice.
The following is what you said in your original post.... "though most of the time I pay" doesn't make it sound like an isolated event.
I've done both -- paid and not -- though most of the time I pay. When I don't pay I have friends get me a few pieces of food and fill my bottles here and there. I don't gorge at rest stops like I might when I pay.
Just to add some more details, here was the breakdown for our ride.
Revenue $7,950 (mostly entry fees with some donations)
Expenses:
Toilets $ 546.25 (port-o-johns are about $70-$90 each)
Clothing $1,481.10 (ride shirts vary from about $8-$11/each)
Liability Ins. $ 360.00 (yes, you have to indemnify various parties)
Auto Mileage $ 103.34 (we reimbursed a course marker and a rolling SAG)
Food $ 232.27 (this is all we had to pay for, most of the food was donated)
Misc $ 572.31 (fuel, various SAG supplies, rented tables, usage fees, first aid kits, etc)
Grilling cook $ 75.00 (came with the donated meat and grill)
Total Expenses $3,370.27
Remainder to be donated to our local children's hospital $4,579.73.
This is what went in to a relatively small ride. We had about two dozen volunteers help with registration, SAGs, and post ride meal. I really can't even fathom the amount of time, effort, and expense that goes into centuries with 1000's of riders.
I really think you should coordinate a ride for a local club just once. If you think there is a good excuse to pirate a ride after that, there is nothing more I can say.
palincss
10-16-2009, 07:22 AM
Well said!
rugbysecondrow
10-16-2009, 07:30 AM
I have never crashed one of these events nor have I seen anybody crash a triathlon (we wear numbers which I think helps). A question for the planners of these events:
Do you plan for pirates or free-loaders?
Do you requre wristbands, shirts or anything to identify with the race? At footraces, typically you have a number also that allows access to foot etc.
Would you turn away somebody who was a free-loader?
This is all pretty new to me and I had never put any thought into people crashing a ride event.
MarcusPless
10-16-2009, 07:59 AM
RAGBRAI is a very different event from you're typical fund-raising "century" ride.
There are a *lot* of "bandits" at RAGBRAI. Possibly 20-50%, on any given day. One difference is in the support costs. The "pass-through" towns (as well as the "over-night" towns) lobby for the right to be on the route. I don't know if they get a dime from the organizer (the "Register"). Anything the locals get is from the direct sales of food/alcohol, AFAIK. What I'm trying to say here is that the sale of food/drink is going directly in the local coffers.
I'm certainly in favor of suppporting local fund-raising rides, (and I've paid for every organized ride I've ever done) and the truth is, I'm in favor of supporting most organized rides, but I "get" the people that don't want to pay to ride RAGBRAI. While I personally feel like RAGBRAI is worth the price of admission I understand the people that feel otherwise.
If you don't use the "Register" to transport your baggage there is less of a reason to pay.
It's a different ride.
YMMV
--Marcus
Please, it's still an organized ride with costs. Maybe not tangible costs such as rest stop food but there are still costs.
If it's true so many crash Ragbrai, then as an example, how about a non paying group of fools waggling down the road and some crash. Are they going to cart themselves to a hospital or rely on event support. If a crash involved a legitimate participant, then sag is needed.
It goes on and on.
even if stuff is donated, it's donated with the idea that it goes to the folks who paid.
what set me off on the other forum is that this guy posted this:"I do Ragbrai every year, may I ask why you paid to do Ragbrai, when I have never paid for the last 8 years? I may be able to save you a chunk of change " in response to someone that said they just registered for a charter. the charters won't actually take you unless you have a wristband number but willl reserve your spot. it's bad enough that this tool feels entitled to do the ride every yr for 8 yrs but to then recruit others just seems to be a true sign of the unwashed. I could post the link if anyone is interested. I was admonished for agreeing with the above poster that he was an ass; but only he asked if by not paying did that make him an ass.
MarcusPless
10-16-2009, 10:35 AM
I personally believe in paying my way, and paying for whatever goods and services I consume, on bike rides or otherwise. I'm not sure what the original context was on this post, but on RAGBRAI it's not unusual to see, for example, grandkids jumping onto the ride for a few miles with a grandparent and then exiting. Should that kid be required to have a wristband? Personally, I'm happy to see another generation on a bike and I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over that six year old bandit.
Other people's value systems, and whatever goods and services they choose to pay for, are not my concern. Can't do anything about it. Not worth worrying about it.
YMMV.
--Marcus
no I don't think a grandchild should have to register. I do believe that someone planning to ride the entire week should; and that person certainly should not be recruiting others to ride bandit or pirate or w/e other cutsie name they have for stealing.
MarcusPless
10-16-2009, 11:54 AM
Agreed.
no I don't think a grandchild should have to register. I do believe that someone planning to ride the entire week should; and that person certainly should not be recruiting others to ride bandit or pirate or w/e other cutsie name they have for stealing.
jcmuellner
10-16-2009, 01:00 PM
Never see poachers on our 600km brevets...
I've organized a number of rides over the years and we always have a few poachers...as long as they use no services we provide I don't fret, but we even pay for the Sani-Cans, so we sometimes have to remind them that it's a fundraiser, not a free-for-all if they "forget".
It's easy enough to just ride another time on the same route.
WadePatton
10-16-2009, 01:26 PM
as one who volunteers for our club's singlemost important club fundraiser each year*, i certainly agree with all who say "no pay is foul play".
*i put in 150 miles of sag driving/radio communications/rest area prep on the day of, plus a few hours of road marking and route checking in preceeding days. several dozen other volunteers helped with as much and a few put in long weeks of planning and preparation and check writing to make the event happen.
we used wristbands this year. now i know why. the route is well-marked and open to all people every day of the year-except one. that day you're treading on our liability and support staff.
unpaid is unwelcome--and i'm the sort who will let you know.
many thanks to the 600 who paid for the event this year. i'd rather pay and not ride than ever ever sleaze a ride. i like to support bike clubs and groups who support cycling. circularity yo.
mof the wx is questionable for another big ride this weekend, but i'll prepay for the ride and not complain one bit if i decide to stay home (and my budget is as tight as any). columbia cycling puts on great events and deserves the support.
BumbleBeeDave
10-16-2009, 05:05 PM
. . . for 7 years and we always had to keep in mind that we ARE using public roads and it was very possible we might see other cyclists out on "our" route who were simply out for a ride on a public road. I rode every year and I don't recall ever seeing anyone "poaching" at a rest stop, but I definitely do recall seeing other people out riding who were just . . . out riding.
Also, about three years ago I happened to be out on a ride with a few friends up to Lake Desolation outside of Saratoga and we happened to be on Middleline road for a while--which coincided with the local bike club's "Century Weekend" route. The sag vehicles came by and said "Hi" but nobody gave us any flack.
I am certainly not in favor of poaching and understand that this subject stirs some strong emotion. I'm beginning to wonder, though, what efforts are made to ascertain whether someone is really poaching or is just out for a ride before some of you guys pounce on them. They are, after all, on public roads . . .
BBD
palincss
10-16-2009, 06:32 PM
. . . for 7 years and we always had to keep in mind that we ARE using public roads and it was very possible we might see other cyclists out on "our" route who were simply out for a ride on a public road. I rode every year and I don't recall ever seeing anyone "poaching" at a rest stop, but I definitely do recall seeing other people out riding who were just . . . out riding.
Also, about three years ago I happened to be out on a ride with a few friends up to Lake Desolation outside of Saratoga and we happened to be on Middleline road for a while--which coincided with the local bike club's "Century Weekend" route. The sag vehicles came by and said "Hi" but nobody gave us any flack.
I am certainly not in favor of poaching and understand that this subject stirs some strong emotion. I'm beginning to wonder, though, what efforts are made to ascertain whether someone is really poaching or is just out for a ride before some of you guys pounce on them. They are, after all, on public roads . . .
BBD
Yes, but coincidentally riding on the same public roads for a while as an organized ride -- even taking a break and using the loo at a public place where the organizers might have set up a rest stop -- is not the same as doing their entire route, not the same as eating their food and not the same as accepting SAG or repair services. And most certainly not the same thing as intentionally setting out to poach the ride!
Johnny P
10-16-2009, 06:46 PM
If you're going to do the ride you should pay up. It's really like stealing if you don't.
Riding the route on a different day when you have to provide your own support seems OK to me.
BumbleBeeDave
10-16-2009, 06:58 PM
Yes, but coincidentally riding on the same public roads for a while as an organized ride -- even taking a break and using the loo at a public place where the organizers might have set up a rest stop -- is not the same as doing their entire route, not the same as eating their food and not the same as accepting SAG or repair services. And most certainly not the same thing as intentionally setting out to poach the ride!
. . . doing what you describe is OK.
BBD
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