carbon free appreciation thread...

[jerk]

o.k. the jerk is doing an apprecition thread on any thing carbon free...name a product that is carbon fiber free that is lighter, better , tougher, sexier, stronger and more perfect in every way than its carbon fiber competition. the jerk likes carbon and thinks it has its place and that some of the finest cycling products are made from it...but there's also alot of chinese garbage out there and alot of copy cat junk that uses carbon for the sake of using carbon. the jerk will start:

PMP cranks: lighter, stronger, moroe gorgeous and a lower q factor than almost anything else currently available.

GO!

[Smiley]

BROOKS SWALLOW , carbon free and at twice the price and twice the weight Jerk .

[SPOKE]

moots Ti stems and seat posts. i like the Serotta Ti stems too but prefer the removable face plates.

[e-RICHIE]

jerk

here's my two cents on this issue...

"Always listen to the coach".

here:

http://tinyurl.com/ypkek

e-RICHIE

ps

:crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap:

[Redturbo]

Nothing!

turbo

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . Look at the test results in Velo News a few issues ago. The DA crank--with not an atom of carbon attached--blew away all the carbon offerings.

BBDave

[hypnos]

Can't wait to get out on those new wheels.

[Sandy]

CSi with a steel fork! End of story! Well maybe not lighter or sexier, but it sure works well.

Sandy

[dave thompson]

My Kirk is guaranteed to be 100% carbon free! Except contents of tires, but that's OK, it's functional.

[MarinRider]

Thomson Masterpiece seatpost - lighter than most carbon posts despite its 2-bolt design.

Mavic brake calipers with linear springs.

Both on my '03 carbon free Chorus Legend Ti.

[Orin]

Er, hate to tell you all, but carbon is what turns iron into steel...

Orin.

[shinomaster]

Old school wooden peg legs are way better than the new carbon fiber jobs. What kind of Pirate would use carbon fiber???
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Johny]

Originally posted by Orin
Er, hate to tell you all, but carbon is what turns iron into steel...

Orin.

This is a good one! Also, without "carbon" dioxide, We are not able to breathe. :)

Listen up, CARBON is everywhere. Carbon fiber is now and the future.

:beer: :beer: :beer:

[Sandy]

But with "carbon" monoxide, you don't even want to breathe anymore, and you don't even know it!

[Dr. Doofus]

The good Doctor thinks that he should design and market a line of lighter, more efficient, sexier, Italian-branded but made in Taiwan line of carbon "intimacy aids."

Now, that's *one* application where lugged steel just doesn't work.


Resolutely taking it to the bottom of the barrel,


Robert

[Kevan]

Nothing comes to mind.

[dbrk]

Anything that Nitto and PhilWood make is about a million times better than any other comparable part made of carbon, imho. I would use a TA crank over anything made of carbon. Gosh, I downright dislike carbon parts...

They don't make downtube shifters worth a darn anymore but Suntour's Superbe Pro, Campagnolo's retrofriction, and the Simplex/Mavic teardrop shifter (the most beautiful and functional ever made), all of these _would_ be better than a carbon counterpart. Some things you can't get better: think Monet, Mozart, Miles, et.al.

Of older things: Maxi-car hubs are even better than Phil or anything ever made for a bicycle. Maxi-cars may be the best bicycle parts ever made, period.

dbrk

[Too Tall]

Saipm Spokes
Cinelli Gramo
Bold Seatposts
Clark Kent Ti Hubs

Howzat?

[BigMac]

I can think of very, very few carbon fiber cycling parts that I personally appreciate or have any desire for. In fact in almost all cases, I would prefer the alloy counterpart to the carbon fiber, regardless of cost. The tiny list would be my appreciation of thangs that are carbon fiber, namely my DMT shoes with their super stiff and cf light soles, also Campy Chorus Ergo brifter bodies. Now this 2nd item is in reference to the '00-'03 units featuring alloy levers but composite bodies and ball bearing pivots.

I have many faves, both new and old among the alloy component designs. My choices are based on function, design, value and aesthetics, in that very order:

Phil or White Ind hubs
Ritchey Pro or Nitto Jaguar seatpost
Rex custom filet'd steel stems
Salsa handle bars - Pro bend (very deep Merckx style for big hands) and Bell Lap are faves.
Campy Chorus headsets
Campy Centaur rd
Huret Jubilee rd - ok it shifted like hell, but never will there be a sexier piece of jewelery for bikes
Rohloff Speedhub - how 'bout an easily adaptable road bar compatible shifter, please
Campy Chorus or Paul Canti brakes
Bontrager rims - my plea is for a sewup rim, pretty please :^)
Brooks or Regal saddles
Legend frame, sans st rear end of course
Any properly designed lugged steel frame
Schmidt hub generator
Nitto bottle holders

Of course all of the above items can be used to build up a bike that will feel and ride better than any "carbonized" bike which is the whole point, no? Carbon free in California!

Ride on!

[Johny]

Originally posted by BigMac
I can think of very, very few carbon fiber cycling parts that I personally appreciate or have any desire for. .........

Of course all of the above items can be used to build up a bike that will feel and ride better than any "carbonized" bike which is the whole point, no? Carbon free in California!

Ride on!

Come on Big Mac. You also love your Campy Hyperon's, don't you? Please vote for Carbon. :)

[Climb01742]

ok, carbon is being over-used. things changed for change's sake. or marketing's sake. granted. no argument. but come on, guys, carbon forks and carbon seatposts -- properly made -- are improvements. i love steel frames as much as the next guy. but there is a luddite glow to this thread. my favorite 911 would be an '87, the last, best version of a "true" 911, IMO. but can a brand-new 996 kick the butt of an '87? all the way to stuttgart and back. give steel it's due. but give carbon it's due, too.

[BigMac]

Johny:

I did pre-empt my list my stating that value does have some import to me. Granted, the Nitto bottle holders are ridiculously priced - does anyone willingly pay $40 for a bottle holder when a $15 Elite Cuissi SS unit is just as servicable...ok I did but that is a rare indulgence because they look and function so damn good. I do own a Nitto Jaguar seatpost on one bike but I would never buy another given the price and quality of the Ritchey Pro priced 60% less.

The Campy Hyperons? Great race wheels, but $2000/pr!!! I mean these are the best composite wheels available if we factor in performance, torsional stiffness and durability but the price is so far from reality one must dismiss it from any list that considers value to any degree. Their braking performance while better than most cf rims, still lags waaaaaaaay behind any alloy alternative. Hey mine were given to me as a gift and I restrict their usage to competitive events only, otherwise there is no way I would own a pair. For less than 1/3 the cost, the Nucleons offer better braking, equal or better durability and nearly identical performance. Same can be said of Bontrager Race X-Lites. Heck I think these are overpriced compared to cost of a quality handbuilt wheelset but Hyperons are well...waaaay too pricey.

CF forks? Unless its an F1, I choose steel over cf everyday of week and twice on Sundays. The F1 offered very near steel feel and response but lacked brake chatter common to steel forks; a nice compromise in my book. If it offered greater clearence for wider sewups, it would have been my favored fork. With the F1's demise, there is not a single cf fork available that I personally consider an equal of a flat-crowned steel fork, curved steel stays of course. The Alpha Q-True Temper is pretty darn close to F1 and does offer a maximum clearence version that will fit 28mm sewups although no wider, or at least I am told.

Ride on!

[dbrk]

Once again I find myself in agreement with BigMac but can add another dimension of carbon to the issue of value. To wit, the carbon explosion has in my mind contributed to the vast inflation of bicycle parts. Everything has gone through the roof and, leaving aside the economics of a weaker dollar and Shimano's desire to reap more profit, the silly cost of many carbon bits has, I think, affected (and infected) the price of everything else. Carbon bits, I am told, are actully not that costly to produce and profits are twice or more what can be had from alloy. Of course the proliferation of this stuff will bring prices down, make it harder to distinguish between quality and crap, and generally lead us down a road that will give us choices, but not necessarily better ones. Of course, for diehards there will always be enough of the parts that we like even if they are a bit more esoteric. After all, this past week I scored a NIB set of Simplex bar end shifters with the demultiplicator. Ooooo. These I would treasure over ANY carbon bit ever.

dbrk
owner of two carbon bikes...doesn't think they are bad, just doesn't think they are superior to anything...

[Sandy]

Interestingly, those that prefer steel over carbon fiber are very often cyclists who have ridden a lot of miles for a lot of years and hence have the most experience with steel. Somewhere down the line, today's carbon fiber will be yesterday's steel and the next wonder material will be generating all the fuss. But to get a new generation of cyclists that collectively have the knowledge of BigMac and dbrk will require a lot more than a meager 2.

Busy in my secret lab developing Sandyleon, the next wonder bicycle material,

Still Serotta Sandyleon

[Sandy]

Serotta carbon down tube

Sandy

[bcm119]

Alloy steerer spacers. Anyone ever try keeping a threadless headset in adjustment using carbon spacers? Every swing in humidity causes these things to expand and contract, what a stupid idea.

[jeffg]

Originally posted by jerk
o.k. the jerk is doing an apprecition thread on any thing carbon free...name a product that is carbon fiber free that is lighter, better , tougher, sexier, stronger and more perfect in every way than its carbon fiber competition. the jerk likes carbon and thinks it has its place and that some of the finest cycling products are made from it...but there's also alot of chinese garbage out there and alot of copy cat junk that uses carbon for the sake of using carbon. the jerk will start:

PMP cranks: lighter, stronger, moroe gorgeous and a lower q factor than almost anything else currently available.

GO!


Jerk -- Couldn't agree more about the PMP cranks (though I haven't had to replace BB yet)! My Legend is carbon free except for the F-2 fork (no more F-1s).

Jeff

[jerk]

good answers gentlemen. oh, and to big mac...i've been pushing the folks at trek/bontrager to make tubular rims with the offset drilling for the back.....i think i've got them almost there. i'll let you know. (oh, by the way...for '05 expect to see the carbon xxx lite with an offset rear rim. i bitched about it alot and i think they listened. it was mainly about not wanting to build two molds so they could use the same rim front and back.)

non carbon goody the jerk loves: cinelli 66 handlebars. size 42 please.

[jeffg]

Originally posted by BigMac
Johny:

I did pre-empt my list my stating that value does have some import to me. Granted, the Nitto bottle holders are ridiculously priced - does anyone willingly pay $40 for a bottle holder when a $15 Elite Cuissi SS unit is just as servicable...ok I did but that is a rare indulgence because they look and function so damn good. I do own a Nitto Jaguar seatpost on one bike but I would never buy another given the price and quality of the Ritchey Pro priced 60% less.

The Campy Hyperons? Great race wheels, but $2000/pr!!! I mean these are the best composite wheels available if we factor in performance, torsional stiffness and durability but the price is so far from reality one must dismiss it from any list that considers value to any degree. Their braking performance while better than most cf rims, still lags waaaaaaaay behind any alloy alternative. Hey mine were given to me as a gift and I restrict their usage to competitive events only, otherwise there is no way I would own a pair. For less than 1/3 the cost, the Nucleons offer better braking, equal or better durability and nearly identical performance. Same can be said of Bontrager Race X-Lites. Heck I think these are overpriced compared to cost of a quality handbuilt wheelset but Hyperons are well...waaaay too pricey.

CF forks? Unless its an F1, I choose steel over cf everyday of week and twice on Sundays. The F1 offered very near steel feel and response but lacked brake chatter common to steel forks; a nice compromise in my book. If it offered greater clearence for wider sewups, it would have been my favored fork. With the F1's demise, there is not a single cf fork available that I personally consider an equal of a flat-crowned steel fork, curved steel stays of course. The Alpha Q-True Temper is pretty darn close to F1 and does offer a maximum clearence version that will fit 28mm sewups although no wider, or at least I am told.

Ride on!


BigMac --
Is there a steel steerer Alpha Q? I thought there was just a Carbon or Ti steerer. Given the quick demise of the Ti steerer F1, it seemed an F2 was a decent choice. BTW, I second the call for a Serotta fork along the lines of the F1.

best,

Jeff

[shinomaster]

I like my all steel Samurai sword. With one swift stroke it can fell two men in four pieces. Folded steel, 30,000 layers, what could be better?