does this forum help serotta?

[Climb01742]

i bet that question gets discussed a lot in saratoga springs. what do you think?

here's my slightly more than two cents worth:

i'm in advertising. clients would KILL for the passionate, engaged bond between customers and company that this forum fosters. yes, passion and engagement cuts both ways, but it is the goal of every marketer to forge a bond with their customers. this forum does that brilliantly.

each time we click on the forum, the serotta name flashes before our eyes and into our brains. top of mind awareness every time we visit.

a lot of information is shared, discussed here. yes, a lot is about other builders. but a lot is about serottas. and the vast majority of opinions expressed about serottas here is positive. and i would argue that because these positive views are alongside negatives ones, the positive ones gain veracity, due to the openness of the discussion.

the very openness of the discussion is a testiment to the values of ben and his company. people buy products, but IMO, they buy values just as much. a catalog or a saleperson or a test ride can give you product info, but what about that company's underlying values? this forum does that.

and what of the cost of all this? i don't know, but i'd bet ben spends a fraction of what most marketers spend on ad campaigns. his ROI is, i think, enormous.

but putting the business aspect aside, this forum is helping forge a community. in an evermore disconnected, isolated world, that has enormous value, i think. cycling is, in part, about comraderie. is there another community in cycling as connected, as sharing, and yes as bickering as we are? maybe, but this is pretty darn special.

i don't believe you can reduce "selling" a product to dollars and cents, or to an equation. i'm sure inside of serotta there are voices saying that this forum doesn't help sell serottas, and may even help un-sell some. i've spent almost 30 years trying to figure out how to sell people stuff. how to build brands. how to forge relationships between companies and customers. you know what? it's an art, it ain't a science. it's mysterious, it's complicated, it's messy, it's far more about following your heart than your mind. this forum, i believe, is messy, complicated, bickering, brilliant, fun, silly, informative, frustrating, cozy, off-putting, embracing...but most of all, i think, it is connecting a company to it's present and future customers in a way that 99.9% of marketers will brains and balls would die for.

can it be better? sure. maybe post a disclaimer about the opinions expressed here don't necessarily reflect serotta. maybe get serotta folk more involved, not as sherriffs, but as participants. encourage more shops to post, to possibly raise and broaden the base of experience and knowledge shared here.

a company exists to make money. and the good companies exist to make their customers lives and their industries a little better. i think this forum, and the support that ben gives it, accomplishes all of those aims. not with out bumps and detours. but what in life that is worthwhile doesn't have bumps and detours?

sorry for rattling on so long. but as both a cyclist and as an ad geek i find the dynamics of this forum fascinating and assounding. THIS is what bonds people to a company. THIS is what makes the world a little better place, all in the name of commerce. THIS sells bikes. THIS lets me tease sandy. how cool is that?

so, what's your take? does this forum help serotta?

[e-RICHIE]

i think if you count "number of impressions", a term
most folks in with marketing are familiar with, it
has to be win-win situation...

[Bill Bove]

And I thuoght only BigMac could be so verbose... I agree Climb.

[Climb01742]

And I thuoght only BigMac could be so verbose...

ouch!!! :rolleyes:

[M_A_Martin]

I agree with many of your points Climb. And I agree that this forum helps Serotta.

But I think that Serotta is letting this opportunity to slip through its marketing fingers by not being more adamant about promoting this bond they have to their customers. I'm not sure this part of the bond is appreciated or quite realized for what it is, or what it could be.

Oh...and go back and edit your rant...I think you meant astounding...not assounding...

or maybe not.

[Big Dan]

anyways some people got blasted last week for calling the forum a marketing tool......... :eek: If anyone out there wants more information about Serotta products , then the forum gives not only information but testimonies from owners....Also gives Serotta information of what customers like or don't like.
Climb is correct........ :D

[Redturbo]

Its a cyber focus group if you will.

[Bill Bove]

ouch!!! :rolleyes:
I miss the big lunk.

[H.Frank Beshear]

I own 2 Serottas one custom and one thats awfully close. My next bike will be custom and will come from one of two builders who frequent this site. If someone asks me to recomend a custom builder Serotta is the first name out of my mouth not the other 2. Because of this forum, and the options that are given to us freely by Ben and Co. I am in sales and have been for the last 20 years. Ben is the most confident manufacturer I have ever come acoss. He allows us to blather about who is best and who is worst and he works for X while he works for y, and all the time we talk about all the things we learned on this site. So where do you tell people to go? First you have to log into Serotta. Hey cool bikes I'll wander ariound here first. Then they discover the lunatic fringe uh.. forum.. sorry guys. Yes there are other highly qualified builders, and we know who they are. Bens biggest advantage is this pack of rabid attack hounds we lovingly call our own. We may not always agree on material or the type of joining but we all love cycling and this chance to express our opinion on the best cycling forum I have ever come across. Thanks Ben Frank

[the walrus]

I, for one, was skeptical of this medium, as this is my first forum experience. I have been a bike shop employee for over 18 years now, a little more than half of my life has been spent standing around talking to friends about the nuances of this or that bike/part/thing/ride etc...and I have begun to feel like this forum has become, in a very short time, an important element of that continued experience. I feel lucky to be able to throw my 2 cents (or usually less) into the ring and by posting my experiences and opinions, feel some amount of satisfaction that my years serving the bicycle industry have amounted to some knowledge gained, and that sometimes, that knowledge may be interesting or helpful or just funny to someone else. Like shooting the s-h-i-t at the shop.

Does this sell Serottas? Good question. I have owned Serottas in the past and I have worked on Serottas and I have talked to customers about the various merits of Serottas, but sadly, our shop no longer sells them. So neither do I. Personally, I think a Serotta is one of the best built bicycles on the planet. But I also think that there are a number of other bicycles out there that catch my eye just as easily.

The strength of this forum is the community here, which luckily for Serotta, is bigger than itself. The free input we, as consumers and sellers of similar products post here is invaluable, if Serotta uses it. How many times have we discussed the various merits of bicycle asthetics; which one looks good, which one looks stupid? This is direct and honest feedback for the entire industry, not just Serotta. We give the industry fast and easy information about the hottest group of buyers out there right now. (What is the slightly older version of a yuppy called?) So, some of us don't like each other as much as we should. I like it. And Serotta will benifit from my fluffy feelings. Maybe not in the short term, unless I win the lottery, but in the long term, as relationships here are forged, and ideas exchanged under the umbrella of SEROTTA. Through this forum, Serotta is no longer just a product, it is a place, a destination. This is like the Holy Grail of advertising.

Without its various personalities, the Alpe d'Huez is just a regular ol' mountain road.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . on an obvious question and answer.

Of COURSE this forum helps Serotta. It also helps us. It also helps prospective owners. It also helps me remain top poster by letting Climb waste uncounted keystrokes sucking his philosphical cycling thumb! ;) :rolleyes: :banana:

BBDave

[slowgoing]

I agree that the forum helps. I luckily stumbled upon the site from the Calfee forum and bought an Atlanta based upon what I read here. Comments by the contributors led me to buy ms. jerk's hors from climb, and most recently, a CSI. Love them all.

[Elefantino]

I stumbled on this forum when I got my Atlanta few years ago. I loved the bike, but also loved the forum, which got me more jazzed about Serotta the brand.

Trek doesn't inspire this kind of loyalty, interplay or customer rapture. I know; I had one. Yes, OK, I'll admit it, Serotta has a cool factor that I like. But it's also a pretty d**n good bike. When I get my next bike, it'll be a Serotta in some sort of ti configuration. And it's not because it's the best ti bike; it may be, or it may not be. But my experience with the company and through this board has inspired loyalty.

Now, somebody please find me an extra large Hors and I'll be very happy.

[shinomaster]

as long as the poster is not I!!!

[Carlo]

I checked out this forum based on a post dbrk made on another list. After lurking for a while I picked up a very nice second hand CSI frame with F1 fork. How does that help Serotta? The guy I purchased from needed to sell so that he could 'upgrade' (his words not mine) to a new Serotta Titanium. The CSI is now my favorite "go fast" bike. I'll rave about Serotta to anyone who will listen. If not for this list I probably would have never known much about the product -- despite having heard about Ben Serotta before.
Even though my purchase was on the secondary market it facilitated another sale by Serotta -- that's good for Ben, right?

Regards,

Carlo
New Orleans

[csb]

.

[vaxn8r]

I came here because of the Calfee forum, back when the 2 fora were mates of a sort. I used to mostly lurk but (too bad for you guys) it became a lot more fun as I developed a feeling of being a true member of the Serottta family. This forum was not the only reason I purchased my Atlanta but it did play a role in it.

I'd say that the forum is a good thing for Serotta.

[terry b]

I bought my Fina because of opinions and discussion on this forum. And, I bought my Kirk for the same reason.

I would never buy a Serotta however, and that's partly due to what I read here. So, as far as this consumer is concerned, the answer is "no."

What I think it does though is form a strongly bonded, hermetic community of people devoted to their brand. And that's great, as long as all of you are repeat customers. It might work for other people with the money to spend on a top marque bicycle. Didn't work for me though.

[William]

I would agree that the forum is a good tool for Serotta. I got turned on to Serottas back in the early 90's and it has been at the top of my list every since. I stumbled across the forum last summer and I have been tuning in regularly over the last seven months. The amount of knowledge, experience, and good will that gets freely passed around here is amazing. There is also a bond of camaraderie that exists here that I haven't experienced any where else on the web. Where else can you get such a diversified group of people together who tend to get along so well? I mean come on, when was the last time you heard of a group of forumites who organized together to sponsor & support a professional team using their favorite product?
When the site went down for 4 or 5 days a while back, it made me realized how much I check in and how much I like it here....I was a bit surprised. I felt like I was really missing something. I have even gotten together with a few people on this forum, not likely something I would have done else where.

Serotta has a good thing going here, something they can't help but benefit from. Customer feed back, a loyal following, and Sandy! What else could they want? Serotta is still at the top of my list, but to be honest, this forum has brought a few builders to my attention that I would consider as well.

Marketing bonanza? Sure. But I feel like it's more of a deeper driven philosophy toward the product they build that has very positive side effects...customer satisfaction, loyalty, and a sense of wanting to associate with that commitment (that's my artistic side ;) ). ~AND~ they just make a dang good product (William's practical side here ;) ).

William

[Climb01742]

I bought my Fina because of opinions and discussion on this forum. And, I bought my Kirk for the same reason.

I would never buy a Serotta however, and that's partly due to what I read here. So, as far as this consumer is concerned, the answer is "no."

What I think it does though is form a strongly bonded, hermetic community of people devoted to their brand. And that's great, as long as all of you are repeat customers. It might work for other people with the money to spend on a top marque bicycle. Didn't work for me though.

terry, i'm just honestly curious...what did you read here that turned you off to a serotta? i promise, i'm just curious...not trying to argue or convince you of anything...just interested. thanks.

[terry b]

terry, i'm just honestly curious...what did you read here that turned you off to a serotta? i promise, i'm just curious...not trying to argue or convince you of anything...just interested. thanks.

I'll tell ya, I was very hesitant to give you any answer in the first place as I know dissention in i-net forums often causes lots of ugliness. I much prefer my table way over in the corner of the pub where I can observe with anonymity. But you asked, so I thought I'd reply.

Let's just say this - I have these unfortunate and poorly thought out prejudices about certain segments of the cycling population and I prefer to think that they are my problem and something that I should overcome. However, in lurking here they have been (unfortunately) reinforced on numerous occasions. Now I'm not going to make a sweeping generalization and paint everyone with the tar brush, but I am going to say that I've seen enough (and actually on occasion been the recipient of enough) to know that this riding community (as defined by this particular brand loyalty) is one I might not want to be a part of. (To the extent anyway that we are often judged by the equipment we ride.)

So back to my table in the corner now.

[spiderman]

the forum is mutually beneficial
and will likely evolve to be more...
i for one am an owner's club member
as a direct result of the forum.
i predict that key serotta core forumites
will be identified by ben and others
to develop an advisory board
to promote and develop the company on many levels
...the potential of the relationship
has only scratched the surface!

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and there are certain groups I don't choose to be a part of, either. That doesn't mean I dislike those people. It just means my ethos is different and my preferences are different. could I still hang around with those people occasionally and have a good time? Sure. That doesn't mean I want ot be just like them, though.

Your Fina and Kirk are no doubt fine bikes. Do you enjoy them? If so, then that's the important thing.

BBDave

[Climb01742]

I'll tell ya, I was very hesitant to give you any answer in the first place as I know dissention in i-net forums often causes lots of ugliness. I much prefer my table way over in the corner of the pub where I can observe with anonymity. But you asked, so I thought I'd reply.

Let's just say this - I have these unfortunate and poorly thought out prejudices about certain segments of the cycling population and I prefer to think that they are my problem and something that I should overcome. However, in lurking here they have been (unfortunately) reinforced on numerous occasions. Now I'm not going to make a sweeping generalization and paint everyone with the tar brush, but I am going to say that I've seen enough (and actually on occasion been the recipient of enough) to know that this riding community (as defined by this particular brand loyalty) is one I might not want to be a part of. (To the extent anyway that we are often judged by the equipment we ride.)

So back to my table in the corner now.

fair enough. totally understand. thanks for answering. ps: enjoy your fina.

[Birddog]

I gotta hand it to you climbissimo, you really know how to get a long thread going, recently your fast, now this. To answer your question, Yes I think it is a good tool, but it takes a very open minded, thick skinned company to do something like this. I've always advocated having someone around with differing/dissenting opinions, they make you think. This forum serves that purpose among many others. It also gives them insight into brand perception, loyalty. and even shortcomings as perceived by the participating group.

TerryB, I had the same question as Climb, but you didn't really answer it. Are you a politician? On the surface it appears to me as though you wouldn't want to own a Serotta for one of two reasons, either it is the "Groucho Marx" syndrome, (I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member), or it is some sort of perceived snobbery on the part of Serotta owners, and you just don't like that or perhaps both . Am I correct in either/both cases? Actually I think you can level here on this forum, but I understand if you elect not too. I'm just curious like Climb.

Birddog, who owns a CSi and an Atlanta

[William]

Interesting. Bike snobbery is one of my peeves. I encountered it a long time ago when I started racing. I found the quickest way to shut them up was to kick their arse riding the perceived El Cheapo bike. No smack talking, "ha ha I beat your arse on my Fuji yada, yada, yada". Just giving them a quiet whooping was all I needed.
Today, even though I ride a decent bike, it still burns my britches to encounter the attitude. Your response puzzles me since I haven't noticed it too much on this forum. There is a lot of people here who have multiple high end bikes in their "stable". A few who sound like they pick up a new custom every other month. But with that being said, unless I've missed a particular thread here or there, I haven't noticed much snobbery here.

As someone who has a family, who has started up a business and is going through some lean times as I get things going, it's sometimes hard to listen to folks talking about all the bikes they have or are getting. But hey, we live comfortably, are not wanting for anything, and I'll make do with what I have until things take off. New cycling equipment is low priority at this time in my household. Until then I can enjoy the excitement and enthusiasm of others on the forum who are getting and describing their new rides.

If things start sliding into bike snobbery, I'll either leave the forum or come and kick their arse. ;)

William

[Kevan]

what with Sandy and I doing our part to convey the Super Sexy Serotta lifestyle, I can only image people are beating down Ben's front door to join in. :cool:

Just remember boys and girls, when you're out there doing your thang in the road, have fun, but please... use protection!

A restraining order has worked for me. :D

[slowgoing]

Terry - I do understand where you are coming from, although I may be in your target group as a slow old guy.

I don't know whether you have tried a Serotta, but if you haven't, I think you would be doing yourself a favor by overcoming those feelings long enough to at least give one a test ride. They are sweet riding bikes, regardless of what the riders are like. Heck, you can always have one made with no decals!

Good luck.

[Climb01742]

i think terry answered the question to his satisfaction. IMO, i think maybe we should respect that. i spend just about every party in a quiet corner, so i think i know where he's coming from. ;)

[jerk]

I'll tell ya, I was very hesitant to give you any answer in the first place as I know dissention in i-net forums often causes lots of ugliness. I much prefer my table way over in the corner of the pub where I can observe with anonymity. But you asked, so I thought I'd reply.

Let's just say this - I have these unfortunate and poorly thought out prejudices about certain segments of the cycling population and I prefer to think that they are my problem and something that I should overcome. However, in lurking here they have been (unfortunately) reinforced on numerous occasions. Now I'm not going to make a sweeping generalization and paint everyone with the tar brush, but I am going to say that I've seen enough (and actually on occasion been the recipient of enough) to know that this riding community (as defined by this particular brand loyalty) is one I might not want to be a part of. (To the extent anyway that we are often judged by the equipment we ride.)

So back to my table in the corner now.

the jerk owns serottas....you don't want to be like the jerk? what's wrong with you? ;) :p ;) :D :banana: :fight:

[Sandy]

The judge cancelled the restraining order. He said that I was restrained long enough. Deranged too! :) :)

Sandy

[Sandy]

I read your posts with disappointment. Certainly not with you, but with the image that you feel is portrayed by Serotta owners and forum posters. I wish that you had been more specific, but of course that is your choice.

I have met and ridden with a lot of Serotta owners and I am proud to say that a few are very close personal friends. I have been almost amazed by how remarkably genuine, sincere, friendly, helpful, and caring individuals they seem to be.

The Serotta cyclists I know come in all different shapes, sizes, colors, religious preferences, ages,... I have met and ridden with heavy, light, fast, slow, single bike owners, multiple bike owners, male, female,...I have never met or ridden with a snobish Serotta bike owner. I'm sure that there are some, but I don't know any, and I know a lot of them, some very well indeed. I have been in many Serotta group rides, which stay remarkably friendly and always possess a caring attitude towards the other riders. All cyclists, riding whatever bikes they ride are always welcome in a ride with a majority of Serotta riders.

It is quite clear that the overwhelming majority of Serotta owners are reasonably well off financially to be able to afford one or more of Serotta and/or other "high end" bikes. But that is not always the case.

Consider Ben Serotta and the "Serotta family" at Saratoga Springs. There is a genuine sincerity, helpfulness, friendly attitude, and warmth projected by all, and it is real, in my opinion.

I do not like arrogant or snobish individuals or cyclists. I, like you, have undoubtedly met some, perhaps many, in cycling. The Serotta cyclists that I know are simply not that way.

Serotta bikes are special. I know that other bikes are special also. The Serotta cyclists that I have met are also very special. Not as cyclists, but as people.

If you are ever in the DC area, please come ride with us on one of Smiley's rides. We will find you a bike to ride that will fit you. Perhaps you might then change your mind about us. Really.

Sandy

[flydhest]

Sandy,
I would argue that some of your perceptions of the people you have ridden with are colored by the fact that you're a nice guy who has as a priority the urge, or desire, or need or whatever, to like the people he meets. It's part of what makes you a great person, but it is not necessarily the way everyone relates to the world and others.

Viewed through a different perspective, some groups are less than satisfying. I don't know terry b, and can't speak to what was said, but I think of lots of group rides that I have been on, some of the local club rides and such, and I have almost no interest in ever doing it again. I know what I get out of cycling, and there are many people in, say PPTC, who are mediocre cyclists at best, but will talk your ear off about gear without having a flipping clue what the differences actually mean when ridden hard. They might be nice people and such, but I don't have any need to ride with them.

Different people get different things out of bike groups.

[xlbs]

Ben to the rest of the 'cycling world. I lurk here a lot, and post but rarely, since there are so many able and thoughtful contributors on a daily basis, but this thread caught my attention. Ben and crew were always tops when it came to my supplier network years ago. This forum continues a long trend of superior customer service, a high-level understanding of the marketplace, and a superb confidence in the value of the Serotta brand. Ben generates customer loyalty for many reasons, but the prime reason is that he is loyal to his customers. This forum permits loyalty to 'cycling to blend with loyalty to a brand in way that markets 'cycling generally. What a gift to each one of us.

Terry, I'm saddened that you have seen something less than appealing about the Serotta folks here, and therefore have chosen not to buy one. Pity.

Without a doubt, my stock '94 Legend Ti is the best-riding bicycle I've ever had the pleasure and privilege to ride. It took me years to find the excellence embodied in this frame, but it was worth all the waiting, riding, testing-riding, and work to ride a bicycle this good.

It's all about a combination of many subtle factors which add up to a fine product. And, that's what this site is all about too: subtle influences, yet strong impressions. Great marketing, great bicycles, great people. Thanks to Ben and friends.

from freezing rain in Canada to the world...

[zap]

have almost no interest in ever doing it again. I know what I get out of cycling, and there are many people in, say PPTC, who are mediocre cyclists at best, but will talk your ear off about gear without having a flipping clue what the differences actually mean when ridden hard. They might be nice people and such, but I don't have any need to ride with them.


Huh?

What rides? Since I do most of my distance riding on PPTC rides with some of the fastest guys in the area, I'm curious which category rides you've done.

[flydhest]

Zap,

I did about three a couple of years ago when my wife was getting into cycling. I don't remember the classifications of the rides.

These weren't the go-fast rides, however. I can get my fill of that with lunchtime sprint loops at Haines Point or jumping in with some of the team rides in the area, or by myself.

Like I said, different people get different things from different groups.

[terry b]

I'm going to tag on this answer to your thread Sandy, mainly because you've summarized the others pretty well, and becuase in threaded mode it just makes sense.

I know I'm being oblique, and that's largely intentional because I really don't want to turn this into some sort of battle. At the same time, I would like to be a bit more clear on what I was alluding to above.

With very, very few individual exceptions, arrogance and snobbery are not what I think this forum conveys. And I don't think that those adjectives should necessarily be applied to the Serotta community as a whole. (unlike Litespeed riders :) ) That was not what I was trying to say.

Rather, the sense I get from the forum is sort of a self-congratulatory nature that often comes with having the wealth and the time and the desire to own luxury products. It's not unique to Serottas by a long shot. And it's not evil, it's just a byproduct of bringing people together who are capable of running in that particular circle.

Now to the original question - does this forum do Serotta good? Well certainly, in that it's formed a bunch of i-net and real-world friendships that further the brand and the sense of community. But, most of you are looking at it from the perspective of A-list forum members who are already "in." Unless you plan on buying additional Serottas, well, then forum isn't doing Serotta any good at all. The thing you (as a group) should consider is how you integrate new people, people with questions or more importantly people who come challenging your beliefs. Not saying one should tolerate Trolls, but I think there are people with well thought out, grounded opinions about Serottas (and other bikes for that matter) that would have a hard time generating a friendly discussions here. Even if they were merely challenging the zeitgeist because they wanted to be assured about the bike they were about to buy. Turning away new people is what does a disservice to Serotta, people who would've bought save for feeling that they just don't want to be part of "that" group.

In the end, it's just an i-net forum and it should not take on a perspective that's greater than it deserves. Thanks though for asking, and listening and if I'm ever in DC I'll gladly take you up on your offer.

[zap]

Fly-some catagories can be, umm, interesting. I get a chuckle when my wife shows up on a ride where we arrived separately. Some of the nonsense these guys throw at her makes me laugh. One guy (a Serotta Ti owner) told her that her Serotta was ti rather than steel because it was so light. Belittled her to no end. Just xxxxxx her of. If she had a magnet...

I (or rather my wife) could go on and on...

And these single guys wonder why they're still single after 20+ years.

But give me a call sometime a lets go on a real hard ride. Think Hains Point with hills thrown in and better country views.

[PanTerra]

Wow, that has not been my experience at all. I have always felt a very gracious reception here and I am a relativley new member. Sure I have a Serotta, but I didn't pay near what is was worth, my LBS pretty much warranteed my old bike as a crash replacement with this one. I suppose I could have been seen as a Serotta "Poser" since I didn't get mine through the normal channels and shell out the cash. But that didn't seem to matter to people here or to Ben.

[flydhest]

Fly-some catagories can be, umm, interesting. I get a chuckle when my wife shows up on a ride where we arrived separately. Some of the nonsense these guys throw at her makes me laugh. One guy (a Serotta Ti owner) told her that her Serotta was ti rather than steel because it was so light. Belittled her to no end. Just xxxxxx her of. If she had a magnet...

I (or rather my wife) could go on and on...

And these single guys wonder why they're still single after 20+ years.

But give me a call sometime a lets go on a real hard ride. Think Hains Point with hills thrown in and better country views.

Will do. You're one of the people who it's fun to ride hard AND talk with.

Re: single guys who wonder why they're still single after 20+ years . . . LOL, I know the type you mean. I would find it more entertaining if I could stand it for more than 5 minutes.

[Climb01742]

terry, thanks for a thoughtful reply. i disagree with some of your points, but i respect your take. different people can take honest, valid, differing perceptions away from the same set of "facts". i'm just glad you hang out in the corner sometimes. i hope you stay.

[shinomaster]

I really have to agree that bike snobbery is annoying and does happen here all the time. It is what I like least about this forum. I have never quite understood the fanatical brand loyalty that exists here either but to each his own . I think it's a fun and often humerous aspect of the group that posts here. It is quite like a Serotta religion and if you go againt the God Ben Serotta you get attacked as heritic. Ha ha.. I own a Serotta so I feel fine in saying all of this..When I bought mine at age 25 I thought Serottas were just cool expensive race bikes, and I didn't identify them with a social class or with old guys.

[terry b]

Oh, I'm not going anywhere, this is not one of those "back of the hand pressed to the forehead "I'm leaving the forum because you guys are so mean to me" posts."

You asked an interesting question, I wanted to provide a challenging answer. It's been fun discussing it.

[shinomaster]

Oh, I'm not going anywhere, this is not one of those "back of the hand pressed to the forehead "I'm leaving the forum because you guys are so mean to me" posts."

You asked an interesting question, I wanted to provide a challenging answer. It's been fun discussing it.

Wow Terry you really have a bad attitude. Maybe you should go post on the Calfee forum instead! Ha ha just kidding... :banana:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . up to a point.

<< With very, very few individual exceptions, arrogance and snobbery are not what I think this forum conveys. And I don't think that those adjectives should necessarily be applied to the Serotta community as a whole. (unlike Litespeed riders ) That was not what I was trying to say.

Rather, the sense I get from the forum is sort of a self-congratulatory nature that often comes with having the wealth and the time and the desire to own luxury products. It's not unique to Serottas by a long shot. And it's not evil, it's just a byproduct of bringing people together who are capable of running in that particular circle.>>

I have myself had twinges of displeasure and--dare I say it?--jealousy when people refer to how many bikes they own, or talk about their expensive cars or cycling vacations I could never afford in a million years, etc. I believe I actually spoke up in one of the "expensive cars" threads, whereupon DirtDigger and others spoke up to reassure me about their own automotive poverty. ;)

But I always end up shrugging it off because I try to keep in mind that everyone sees these things in their own frame of reference. I myself live pretty well considering the general economy. I'm sure at times I end up saying things that are totally innocent to me, but come across the wrong way to those who don't have a Serotta, or are not homeowners, or may not be as lucky as I am in some other way.

If someone does own an expensive car or multiple bikes because they have been lucky enough--or worked very hard--to get where they are, should they have to watch everything they say, avoiding mention of these things simply so as to avoid possibly offending someone? Just sounds way too politically correct to me. Besides, I've never seen any evidence that when these things are mentioned, it's because people are bragging or grandstanding.

Actually, I guess you could say that having a Peg or a Kirk and talking about it might be construed the same way by some people. Among the cycling cogniscenti they are considered perhaps even more unusual and therefore "exclusive" than a Serotta . . .

Don't you love it when I sit here navel gazing like this? At the paper we call these kinds of rambling stories "thumbsuckers."
:rolleyes:

BBDave

[mavic1010]

This reminds me of the time when I was a lowly consultant at one of those Big 6 now to the Final 4 audit firms which had consulting arms until the SEC stepped in. Anyways, during one of our meetings, the managing partner mentioned the lean years of the firm. Some partners were earning less than even some of the Senior Managers....so then he proceeds to say how life was difficult for everyone back then. The partner said "it was hard on everyone's family, going from a partner's salary of 500k to 250k in one year." I couldn't believe what I had just heard. I still don't think he realized that 95% of the room didn't break 100k in salary.

It's all perception....wish I had problems of having to survive on 250k instead of 500k.

[terry b]

Wow Terry you really have a bad attitude. Maybe you should go post on the Calfee forum instead! Ha ha just kidding... :banana:

Used to, but I got so tired of explaining that it was not my fault that my inner chain ring rubbed on the right chainstay that I finallly left. :D

[terry b]

[QUOTE=BumbleBeeDave
Actually, I guess you could say that having a Peg or a Kirk and talking about it might be construed the same way by some people. Among the cycling cogniscenti they are considered perhaps even more unusual and therefore "exclusive" than a Serotta . . .
[/QUOTE]

Too true, but in all my riding around Albuquerque and in all of the organized rides I've had across the Southwest, the only comment I've had on those two is "nice paint job."

Those brands are recognized by such a small percentage of the cycling public that they have not become "loaded terms."

Not so with Serotta, because a much larger share of riders has encountered that brand in part of their search for their ultimate bike. (That plus the handful of people who tell people that their Legend is not only the best bike on the road but that it cost them $8k (no, I'm not kidding, it's happened to me.)) "Serotta" is a loaded term and while some of the loading is good (quality, ride, materials,) some of it isn't.

So if you match the sticker shock that a regular person gets when they visit the Serotta website the first time with the brand dedication you get from the participants here, backlash is certainly possible.

And yes, navel gazing is a worthwhile endeavour - who wants all that lint buildup?

[pdonk]

As a long time lurker and infrequent poster, I'll add my 2 cents. I think this forum and others like it are useful to manufacturers and the consumer in general. I belong to a a few others and have made many friends "real" and online because of them, this works out well for everyone and if a brand can be associated with that the brand deserves to come out ahead.

I'll probably never own a Serotta (even though I did pick up a ti quill stem on close out) because of how much they cost and other bikes I'd rather have, some cost as much as a serotta, others less.

[xlbs]

about bike snobbery. I happen to think my Serotta's a wonderful bike, but that's because it suits me, my riding style, and fits really well. I also like riding my beater, which is at the other end of the bicycle spectrum for quality of manufacture and aesthetics, but it's still a good ol' bicycle.

I'm not a fast, nor a brilliantly capable rider. I don't have lots of cash, nor do I have a stable of bikes, but I truly appreciate the quality of the bike I'm riding.

And, I do appreciate folks who have been discerning enough to buy a fine machine, and who are humble enough to know where they fit into the bigger peloton of life. I expect that, with my current fitness, and therefore modest abilities, I wouldn't fit into the packs that a lot of the folks here ride in...Sandy, you'd probably outclimb me any day of the year...

Nevertheless, what I enjoy very much about this forum is the commitment that most folks have to finding the right fit of bicycle to rider, equipment to chosen purpose, and general all around willingness to share knowledge. Yes, there are some here who have more than others, but they're less than blatant about their status much of the time, and often very willing to share of their wealth of experience.

These are all good things. I'm glad to see that you're choosing to stick around.

[Skrawny]

I started looking into a new bike about 6 months ago and rode a Legend on a Serotta demo day way back then. At that time Serottas were more $ than I wanted to spend. I have been saving money, researching, reading this website and torturing my LBS ever since.

Today I bought a Legend (and it's due to rain for the next WEEK :crap: )

It was a great deal on one of last year's demos, but it was still more than I initially thought I would spend on a bike.

How much did this website have to do with it? How much of it was the demo day? How much of it was the infinite patience of my LBS & the 200+ miles of demo rides I went on? I don't really know.

I DO know this website had some part in it.
-s

PS- yes, yes, pictures will follow...

[dohearne]

This forum is just part of a "Serotta" ownership experience. First, let me say I am unlikely to buy another Serotta. I thoroughly enjoy my Legend-ST, but I don't know if I could get the CFO to ever approve another one. I think the LBS should also be included as part of the system. I would not have bought a Serotta, if my LBS did not carry them. I happen to like my LBS and I believe Serotta does also. For me the reputation of the LBS is as important as the reputation of Serotta. I now buy the majority of my cycling requirements exclusively from the LBS. The financial solvency of his bike shop improves his chances to sell more Serottas and my frequent stops while out on a ride causes my Legend to be seen. Various products mentioned on this forum cause further stops to the LBS. So the way I see it there is an interplay in the ownership experience between the quality of Serotta, the quality of discussion on the forum, and the quality of the Serotta carrying LBS.

A Happy Customer

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . this whole discussion simply proves that we worry way too much in our society about things and not about experiences or people.

BBDave

[terry b]

. . . this whole discussion simply proves that we worry way too much in our society about things and not about experiences or people.

BBDave

But Dave, without things this forum and this discussion among this set of people would never have happened. Be it good or bad, as a gregarious species we often align ourselves by the things we own in common. And that naturally leads to the misplaced worry you speak of.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I just HATE it when you’re right, Terry! ;)

BBDave

[Dekonick]

Interesting points made by everyone. One point that I just don't understand - How can anyone (and I mean anyone) make the connection between Serotta and being rich? Anyone (again I do mean ANYONE in the US) can afford a Serotta. I have been in some of the worst ghetto's you can imagine. I have seen poverty, despair, well... you get the picture. What is also amazing is even in the ghetto people make choices. I have seen some of the NICEST stereo and AV equipment (worth more than enough to buy a nice Serotta, Seven, Litespeed...) setups amid this squalor (and - NO - not always from drug $$) and this reflects the choices that some individuals have made. It is all about your priorities.

I made a choice - I own nice bikes. I am not rich (but am getting old...) I drive a normal car (and dont replace em until they age at least 10 years) live in a nice house, with a great wife and loveable dog.

Perhaps I am in the minority here but I doubt it.

I ride with a few Serotta owners, but mostly alone.

(The CEO did tell me that if I get any more bike stuff I am dead)

[Climb01742]

there is a danger, i think, in equating having "things" and being a snob, or having messed up priorities. maybe i'm feeling defensive because i have more than an average number of bikes. ok, i have a lot. :rolleyes: but they are my passion. i wear blue jeans and t-shirts to work. i don't own any jewelry, rings, watches except for a timex ironman which i can't program. i have a nice house but its not opulent by any means (my bathroom ceiling is peeling.) i drive a BMW but its six years old. i don't eat at fancy restuarants, i don't belong to any country clubs, this spring i'll take my first real vacation to a nice hotel in five years (mostly because S.O. climb said she'd kill me if i didn't.) i'm just trying to say, having "things" and placing misplaced importance on them are two different things.

[Sandy]

Very well said. One has what one has and a person's worth is not related to what he or she has, but how he or she relates to others. Possessions are exactly that. What a person has or does not have is really not meaningful. What a person is inside is what is important. One should never be ashamed by what he or she has or what he or she doesn't have. Those that have a lot often obtained those possessions by hard work.

Possessed Period,


Sandy

[JohnS]

You're 99% right. There are a few (and I mean very few) people on the forum that "innocently" have to drop names about their newest, non-bike related toys. I'm happy they have these possessions, I just don't want to know about them. We come here to share our love of bikes, and Serottas in particular, and whether someone has a new M3 or Ducati or horses has nothing to do with it.

[Kevan]

for sale... you can have'm... I'll pay you to take'm. Please! :D

[Sandy]

It may not be necessary. The pugs have had you up for sale for months.

Your Best Bud (Rose)

[terry b]

Interesting points made by everyone. One point that I just don't understand - How can anyone (and I mean anyone) make the connection between Serotta and being rich?

While many can certainly afford them, how many people would actually consider spending $3000 to $5000+ for a top end frame? Remember, most people are going to look at the high end and ignore the fact that Serotta offers reasonably priced bikes as well.

That's precisely where the misconception comes from. For most people, even those willing to shell out a couple of grand for a complete bike, the leap to riders willing to spend 2 to 4 times what they've spent is not that far.

My uncle(in law), former Governor of Oregon and a bazillionaire told me I was insane to spend $4000 on a bike. Right to my face. He told me about the time he walked into Sears looking for a mountain bike and walked right out when he realized it cost $699.

And that's a guy with money speaking.

I too am a regular guy who wears jeans and a polo to work, drives a Toyota and lives in a 30 year old sinking adobe house. I throw my available cash (after 2 girls in college) at bikes. We don't take cruises, we don't live fancy. But many would look at what I ride and say the exact same thing about me - "oh, you work at that high tech place, that's why you have all those bikes, must be nice."

[Birddog]

Terry, Intel huh? Lonesome Dave? I miss the good ol' days with Tiny Anoya. I ride up north about 4/5 times a year

When I decided on a Serotta, I started scouring E-Bay, and other outlets, I knew I couldn't buy new. I got the first one, an Atlanta for a total outlay of $120, and scrounged for components. I got my second, a CSi by not even looking for it, paid $900 (like new) scrounged for a year for all Record components. One of them will no doubt be sold after I receive an incoming addition, and then I'll look for something else. You're right though, a lot of people think the Marque is only for the well off. I'm perfect evidence otherwise. Riding bikes is my passion, acquiring bike stuff and bikes is becoming one too, but I do it on the cheap, it's more fun (for me) that way. I absolutely hate it when people ridicule the Ottrott (as well as other high end models and brands) and their owners because of it's pricetag. Who gives a $#!+, if you've got the dough, and that's what floats your boat go for it. I hate the so-called class envy BS that so many are quick to utilize. I don't care if it is all "market hype" spending money is actually a pretty good thing for the economy last time I checked, as long as it isn't long on credit.
I guess I look the part of a so-called typical Serotta owner. Older (58), overweight (about 10 lbs), but as one of the newer members of our local group said . " when I first saw you , I thought who is that fat old guy on the Serotta , then you proceeded to ride my *** into the ground" Perception is 100% reality, until demonstrated otherwise.

Birddog

[Kines]

This forum contributed to my decision to buy a Serotta. more importantly, however, is the quality of the main web site. For me, the more info the better. And other companies under consideration that lost my bid did so largely because of lack of easily obtainable information about their product.

[Skrawny]

[this thread has morphed a little from it's original question]

Regarding "Serottas for for rich people."
It is official, my new Serotta has more resale value than my car (Saturn).
I have a friend who was just giving me a hard time about the $$ I just spent "on a bike." He owns a 4 door BMW, I own a 4 door Saturn, all I had to do to prove my point was to ask him why he would spend $30k more than I did on "just another 4 door car." All of his points about value, performance, comfort, quality and 'bling' won my argument for me.
-s

[dirtdigger88]

I am not rich by any means- I am about as straight down the middle- middle class as it get- The chips of life happened to fall right for me and I have the extra cash to buy a Serotta- I look at it like this- people are going to spend money- it just depends on what is important to you- Case in point- my wife and I bought our house that we promptly gutted to do a complete re hab on- my neighbors did the same thing at the same time- Fast forward two years- we are done with our house they are still working on theirs- Why? Because we chose not to take vacations (other than time off to work on the house) while they choose to travel quite a bit- See- it is all in how you decide to spend you money-

So someone makes $30 k a year- but they choose to smoke a pack of cigs a day and drink a 12 pack of beer each weekend- I am not passing judgement- I am just saying that percentage wise that person spent more money on their "hobby" than I did- and I am only buying the bike once where as they continue to spend each year-

I am not rich- I don't take expensive vacations- we tend to do 3-4 day trips of camping and such- I don't drive expensive cars- We eat at home almost every night- and we are smart about what we buy- I invest as much as I can toward retirement- and I play on bikes with what is left- Cycling is cheaper than boating, hunting, and golf- just my .02

Jason

[bcm119]

Well if we're all going to talk about how un-rich we are, I'll chime in to enforce the fact that it all depends on your priorities. You don't have to be rich to buy a Serotta- take me as case in point. I have a '94 Geo prizm, rent an apartment, and own almost nothing of value except my bikes. I'd rather have a nice bike than a nice car. I am not settled enough to buy a house. And if/when I get married, I sure won't be spending the 10-20k that seems to be the norm these days... I never understood that one. I like what I do for a living, and I spend what little money I have on good food and good bikes- both things that I consider good investments in my health and happiness.

[bulliedawg]

My mother always says to never question how someone else spends his money. She’s originally from Sicily, and I have a feeling her strong feeling on the matter has something to do with her culture. But she strongly believes it’s downright impolite to question this aspect of a person’s life. And I have adopted her ideals on this subject. I know people who spend thousands of dollars on things that seem frivolous and stupid, but if it brings them some happiness, then so be it.

One caveat, however: I do cast judgment on people who “spend the milk money” (to use a gambling phrase) to fuel their passions/addictions. This would include incurring debt. My wife and I have a strict policy about paying interest on anything that wont make us money. House and student loan (still paying a small loan for her veterinary school) are the only things we will pay interest on.

Other than that, we save for retirement and future kids, and buy what brings us happiness.

[vaxn8r]

Not saying one should tolerate Trolls, but I think there are people with well thought out, grounded opinions about Serottas (and other bikes for that matter) that would have a hard time generating a friendly discussions here. Even if they were merely challenging the zeitgeist because they wanted to be assured about the bike they were about to buy.
I think this thread has gotten away from itself on many levels.

There does seem to be a bike hierarchy on the forum. At least I think so and it has nothing to do with how much money one makes. It has more to do with what you ride. Ottrott or Legend, you're in. Sachs, Pegoretti (definitely in) other lugged steel, all in. Parlee, in. Some bikes/owners don't hold so much interest and sometimes their owners are given a cold shoulder. I don't think it's about competition with Ben Serotta either. Moots and IF are on the "in" list. Merlin and Litespeed are definitely out. Spectrum ti is borderline but Spectrum steel is pretty cool. Trek and Cannondale are given short shrift, even though they both make some awesome bikes. I rarely, if ever, hear anything positive about bikes on the "out" list.

Like it or not I think terryb has a valid point. There is a lot of "group think" around here and some bikes, which are reflection of their owners, are not as accepted as some others. I do find it interesting. I think all bikes are cool and most everyone who rides one for pleasure is cool.

I recognize it's a Serotta forum but there is a double standard around here. I'm probably just as guilty as the next. I still love all you guys. :) :)

[Dekonick]

Does Ben & Co benefit from the forum?

I hope so!

Back to what I posted earlier regarding Serotta and being rich - Anyone can buy a Serotta IF thats what they really want. I don't know anyone who owns a Serotta that wouldn't go out and buy another. (or similar)

I won't make judgements about what people choose to buy because often there is more to that choice than we see. Look at my earlier reference to the ghetto section 8 apt. with the killer AV setup. Why would a family buy a $5k AV setup when they can't afford a car? To an outsider looking in all you see is a $5k AV setup. Taking a deeper look reveals other realities - for example - if you can't affort to travel, buy and maintain cars, eat out at fancy resteraunts, or play in the streets because it is unsafe what is left? Your TV & Stereo. I can understand how/why underprivelaged families make such a choice. I just feel that Serotta owner's deserve the same - and not be judged harshly without understanding all the factors involved in a bike's purchase. I would never have purchased a Serotta were it not for a LBS manager who watched me grow from a cycling neophyte to an avid cyclist. I owe him a debt of grattitude for guiding me to a top end bike frame when I was looking to buy my third road bike (because a car hit and ruined my 2nd one). I never raced, and did not have alot of cash at the time (poor college student) but after I rode several frames the Serotta bug bit - and bit hard. I *cough* eeked $2k for that Colorado CR - and still own it today. That day opened my eyes to the world of hand crafted bikes. What a difference!

Thank you Ben! Thank you Bud! (the LBS manager)

I love my bikes!

A Serotta owner is an aware and educated bike buyer. I honestly believe that if more people knew and understood the qualities that make a Serotta ride the way they do there would be alot more Serotta's on the road. As it stands today marketing dictates what bikes we see. Klein, Trek, Specialized, Giant, GT, C'dale, etc...

If you want to talk about bikes being purchased for 'name's sake' take a look at Litespeed. For the same outlay you can have a custom bike.

Ahhhh Spring PLEEASE hurry up!!!

[zap]

A Serotta owner is an aware and educated bike buyer. I honestly believe that if more people knew and understood the qualities that make a Serotta ride the way they do there would be alot more Serotta's on the road. As it stands today marketing dictates what bikes we see. Klein, Trek, Specialized, Giant, GT, C'dale, etc...


Now whats wrong with Klein, Trek, Specialized, etc.

I consider myself to be reasonably educated about bikes, have raced, ridden more miles than I can count, crashed, etc, etc. Others who don't own Serotta's have pretty interesting resumes as well.

You honestly beleive that legends like Gary Klein (MIT engineering grad I might add), or engineers at Trek don't know what the heck their doing?

I could go on but the bottom line is this, a Klein Q Pro carbon in my size is a pretty sweet riding bike, comparable to a Legend on roads around here. But in addition to the sweet ride and great handling, it was details such as formed tubing (which is just now catching on), internal cable routing, neat custom paint job and light weight that I found appealing. I could (can) buy whatever I like(d) since I do not have an allegiance to any manufacturer, distributor or shop. But considering my experience, I know I made an informed decision to purchase a Klein framset based on the performace parameters I set for this project.

I think posters such as VAX are, in many ways, correct.

[davids]

I also think vaxn8r's perception is correct (he didn't even mention Seven! ;) ), although it's usually a subtle thing. I'm probably more sensitive to criticism of Seven (since I own one, and love it) than to other bike makers, and have noticed more than a little vitriol in some comments about this fine company.

I hope no one here would question the excellence of Serotta bicycles. I certainly don't! But there's a lot of unchallenged dissing of other bikes that,well, I've learned to live with... The fact is that there are a lot of excellent bikes, and probably even more opinions about why one of them is better than another.

I greatly appreciate the knowledge I've acquired by hanging out here - Most of you know more about biking and bikes than I do, and my participation here has been invaluable. And I'm grateful to Serotta for having the confidence to provide and support this strange little community. Having said that, I must note that part of the knowledge I've picked up has been the need to take negative comments about other manufactures with a big grain of salt.

Carry on...

[William]

Just listen to something my old uncle who was a hermit out in the desert told me:

(William gestures a slight wave in front of the forum and quietly...)

You don't need to look at other bikes other then Serotta.

(collective forum drone)
"We don't need to look at other bikes other then Serotta".

Those other bikes are not the ones you are looking for.

"These other bikes are not the ones we are looking for".

you can go about your business.

"we will go about our business".

move along.

"Umm, let's move along".

Seriously, This forum has actually opened up other builders to me that I wouldn't have considered or known about before. Instead of being a Serotta Drone (and I mean that affectionately), now I look at and appreciate the works of other talented individuals. Some are on Vax's "in" list, but others I've found by some mention here as well as going to frame builders forums...again promted by individuals on this list. It hasn't diminished my appreciation for Serotta at all, just open my eyes a little wider.

William

[tch]

After wading through all kinds of discussion: marketing, brand loyalty, bike snobbery, rich vs. poor..... How about if we consider this whole thing from another angle? Could it be that Ben DOES benefit from this forum -- but that this may not be his primary motivation? Could it be more altruistic? Perhaps a genuine attempt to give back to a loosely-defined community of which Ben is a part?

I would argue that the forum benefits Serotta 1) directly by getting the name out there and 2) far more indirectly by creating a more-informed, knowledgeable, thoughtful bunch of consumers (after all, folks who learn that it might be OK to challenge some of the "givens" of a marketplace driven by racing machines are more likely to buy and ride bikes like Ben creates). However, I would venture that there is a possibility that Ben is not, and did not, think of marketing/PR/sales when he bought into this forum idea. I am hoping that he is not losing money. But...maybe he is.

But perhaps he's just interested in giving some support to a community. Perhaps like when we all sit around and think "Gee, wouldn't it be neat if we all had a coffeehouse like the one in FRIENDS or a bar like the one in CHEERS where we could all go and hang out?" Well, here we are. As I think the song goes, "everyone knows your name" here. Ben has the interest, he has the business, (I hope) he has the money.... Now that it has become a reality, I suspect some number of us would kick in our own money to keep it going; it means that much. Maybe this is just Ben's gift to all of us.

Thank you Ben.
tch

[gasman]

[QUOTE=terry b]While many can certainly afford them, how many people would actually consider spending $3000 to $5000+ for a top end frame? Remember, most people are going to look at the high end and ignore the fact that Serotta offers reasonably priced bikes as well.

That's precisely where the misconception comes from. For most people, even those willing to shell out a couple of grand for a complete bike, the leap to riders willing to spend 2 to 4 times what they've spent is not that far.

My uncle(in law), former Governor of Oregon and a bazillionaire told me I was insane to spend $4000 on a bike. Right to my face. He told me about the time he walked into Sears looking for a mountain bike and walked right out when he realized it cost $699.

And that's a guy with money speaking.

Terry- As a long time Oregonian- who is the former guv you speak of ? Vic Atyiah(sp?) ? I met him a couple times in the early 80's , he had his hair cut at the same cheap barber shop I did. He was a bit odd I thought. That may be calling the kettle black though.
The latest ex-guv, Kitzhaber, was an ER doc who is not rich.
Just curious.

[William]

Terry- As a long time Oregonian- who is the former guv you speak of ? Vic Atyia(sp?) ? I met him a couple times in the early 80's , he had his hair cut at the same cheap barber shop I did. He was a bit odd I thought. That may be calling the kettle black though.
The latest ex-guv, Kitzhaber, was an ER doc who is not rich.
Just curious.

As an Oregonian currently living abroad ( ;) ), I was wondering the same.

Ah yes, Ze Kitzenhaber! (spoken in a badly imitated German accent)

Vilhelm

[vaxn8r]

I also think vaxn8r's perception is correct (he didn't even mention Seven! ;) ),
I didn't mention Seven on purpose. I was trying to avoid us going off topic again. ;) I totally agree with you BTW, Seven has not (yet) made the "in" list.

[Sandy]

So let's go a little futher with your "in" list and your "out" list. I ride an Ottrott, so that puts me in the "in" list. I take my "in" bike and I go on a club ride. Everthing starts out just fine, and I'm happily spinning along and singing Serotta bicycle tunes until we get to the first significant hill. Then all of the other "in" bikes drop me big time, and even the "out" bikes drop me big time. I look ahead and see nobody. All the bikes have disappeared.

Being alone, I have time to think, and think. So what is my problem? Why did the "ins" and the "outs" drop me? Was I so "in" that the other "ins" simply didn't like me? Sort of like I was so "in" that I was "out"? Did the "outs" drop me because they were jealous of an "in"? And how did all the "ins" and "outs" precisely time their escape at the very instant we hit the hills? I thought that "ins" and "outs" are so "out" with each other that they would never feel "in" enough to plan anything together. Please explain why this always happens. I need to know.


"in" but always feeling "out"

inoutSandy

[Spinner]

i'm not sure if "group think" truly exists here. sure, there are many that articulate similar preferences, like and dislikes. however, i've always thought that the membership of this forum (and the old forum for that matter) was a fairly divergent group, with the common point being a passion for cycling.

a look back at the various threads will demonstrate that there is a whole universe of thoughts expressed in this forum. yes, there are those who post frequently about the latest and greatest frames and components, with a focus on the high-end. and yes, there are no doubt some who make strong proclamations that i suspect are driven more by bias than real data or genuine personal experience. however, as in all communication, the receiver generally determines what has been communicated. diversity is a good thing.

i for one am proud to me a member of this "riding community." i've had the pleasure to participate in TdFL I and II and i will tell you that those two weekends are among my most memorable riding adventures. i will also state that no two of the other participants that i've met at these events were alike in any way with the exception of their passion for cycling. ahhh, well, some of us also share a taste for good beer too.

Ben, i greatly appreciate your ongoing support of this communication venue. thanks. and thanks to all of you who participate and share your opinions. this is my favorite web destination by far.

[terry b]

Bob Straub.

[Spinner]

are you asking if i (we) know bob straub?

[terry b]

are you asking if i (we) know bob straub?

No, I'm answering the question that was asked above by gasman, regarding my reference to my uncle-in-law who was Governor of Oregon. If you follow this topic in threaded view, you'll see my answer is linked to his question.

[atdamico]

...There does seem to be a bike hierarchy on the forum. At least I think so and it has nothing to do with how much money one makes. It has more to do with what you ride. Ottrott or Legend, you're in. Sachs, Pegoretti (definitely in) other lugged steel, all in. Parlee, in. Some bikes/owners don't hold so much interest and sometimes their owners are given a cold shoulder. I don't think it's about competition with Ben Serotta either. Moots and IF are on the "in" list. Merlin and Litespeed are definitely out. Spectrum ti is borderline but Spectrum steel is pretty cool. Trek and Cannondale are given short shrift, even though they both make some awesome bikes. I rarely, if ever, hear anything positive about bikes on the "out" list... I think all bikes are cool and most everyone who rides one for pleasure is cool...

As a new member I am looking to upgrade from my flatbar fitness bike to a new roadbike. Hence my search on the internet for anything and everything having to do with bikes. I came down to two, Trek and Serotta. So I visited my bike shop. I was stunned when he suggested that there was a bike hierarchy. It seems that one should not own a Trek Pilot. Heaven forbid. What will people say?? He wasn't making judgements but he was simply communicating to me what the "real" world of cycling was like out there. So if there is a hierarchy that exists in the world of cycling, then it only stands to reason that it exists on this site as well. Any group is nothing more than a cross section of the general population at large anyway. Also this site has been more than helpful in convincing me that Serotta is one of many fine bikes. Bottom line is to ride them. So I spent about an hour on three different bikes last weekend. Trust me. I am a cheap SOB and was looking to fall in love with the $2,600 bike. But nothing I rode compared (to me) to the Serotta I rode. (Concours Ti) It made me feel connected with the road in a way that I really can't describe. Unlike the pure carbon bikes I rode which were, well, muted. Anyhow does a bike hierarchy live on this site? Certainly. Does this site help non Serotta owners choose? Certainly. Now I guess I will be judged as somehow inferior as I will be buying a "stock" Serotta instead of a custom one. :D

[stevep]

. But nothing I rode compared (to me) to the Serotta I rode. (Concours Ti) It made me feel connected with the road in a way that I really can't describe. :D


its talking to you.
if it fits buy it.
great bike

ride it and talk about it here.

[davids]

...Now I guess I will be judged as somehow inferior as I will be buying a "stock" Serotta instead of a custom one. :D
Yeah, but in a good way... ;)


p.s. Good for you, riding and judging for yourself. I found the same thing - that there was truth behind the hype, and that a bike could easily be worth what Serotta is charging. And I bought my Nove off the dealer's floor, so I can confess that mine is also stock...

[JohnS]

The hierarchy thing is correct. I ride a stock Concours and nobody around here likes me. I think it's because of the bike... :confused:

[manet]

The hierarchy thing is correct. I ride a stock Concours and nobody around here likes me. I think it's because of the bike... :confused:

keno does, i think.

[Pete Serotta]

+1,

I think you are on to something here... :D

Ben loves cycling....and the customers.. (Yes SANDY that means you) ;)

Just my opinion after knowing the guy longer than many of you are old. (Boy I feel old -- -BEN is only 39 though)




After wading through all kinds of discussion: marketing, brand loyalty, bike snobbery, rich vs. poor..... How about if we consider this whole thing from another angle? Could it be that Ben DOES benefit from this forum -- but that this may not be his primary motivation? Could it be more altruistic? Perhaps a genuine attempt to give back to a loosely-defined community of which Ben is a part?

I would argue that the forum benefits Serotta 1) directly by getting the name out there and 2) far more indirectly by creating a more-informed, knowledgeable, thoughtful bunch of consumers (after all, folks who learn that it might be OK to challenge some of the "givens" of a marketplace driven by racing machines are more likely to buy and ride bikes like Ben creates). However, I would venture that there is a possibility that Ben is not, and did not, think of marketing/PR/sales when he bought into this forum idea. I am hoping that he is not losing money. But...maybe he is.

But perhaps he's just interested in giving some support to a community. Perhaps like when we all sit around and think "Gee, wouldn't it be neat if we all had a coffeehouse like the one in FRIENDS or a bar like the one in CHEERS where we could all go and hang out?" Well, here we are. As I think the song goes, "everyone knows your name" here. Ben has the interest, he has the business, (I hope) he has the money.... Now that it has become a reality, I suspect some number of us would kick in our own money to keep it going; it means that much. Maybe this is just Ben's gift to all of us.

Thank you Ben.
tch

[Pete Serotta]

I am probably too close to Serotta (as I say I am biased) BUT both my son in law and nephew ride CDA/C111. It is the most recommended frame by me.

I agree that there are snobs out in the world whether they have a $$$ car or a $$$ bike, or a $$$ address....It makes them happy and as long as it does not hurt me or my friends, I am ok with it (no I seldom offer to share a glass of red with them). As someone mentioned, nothing puts one of these folks in a "quiet" mood faster than being sent off the back of a pace line....... :bike: by a quiet lady or gent. (Yeah it puts a smile on my face too)

The hierarchy thing is correct. I ride a stock Concours and nobody around here likes me. I think it's because of the bike... :confused:

[Viper]

While many can certainly afford them, how many people would actually consider spending $3000 to $5000+ for a top end frame? Remember, most people are going to look at the high end and ignore the fact that Serotta offers reasonably priced bikes as well.

That's precisely where the misconception comes from. For most people, even those willing to shell out a couple of grand for a complete bike, the leap to riders willing to spend 2 to 4 times what they've spent is not that far.

My uncle(in law), former Governor of Oregon and a bazillionaire told me I was insane to spend $4000 on a bike. Right to my face. He told me about the time he walked into Sears looking for a mountain bike and walked right out when he realized it cost $699.

And that's a guy with money speaking.

I too am a regular guy who wears jeans and a polo to work, drives a Toyota and lives in a 30 year old sinking adobe house. I throw my available cash (after 2 girls in college) at bikes. We don't take cruises, we don't live fancy. But many would look at what I ride and say the exact same thing about me - "oh, you work at that high tech place, that's why you have all those bikes, must be nice."

Terry,

But just because your Uncle-in-Law could afford buying Serotta's company, but refused to buy a bike at $4K as it's, "Insane", this doesn't mean that he knows diddly about bikes. Clearly anyone who walked into Sears looking for a bike...tells me the man knows nothing about bicycles whatsoever. "He told me about the time he walked into Sears looking for a mountain bike and walked right out when he realized it cost $699" confirms the man was not a cyclist. Why take advice about a bike or the sport of cycling from someone who knows nothing?

Governors govern, that's what he did best. He made money somehow, of course and let's say he made it in the stock market...should he take advice from my eight year old nephew when it comes to NASDAQ?

People should celebrate and enjoy their wealth. I'm certain I could look at something, some element of the former Governor and gasp at what he spent on object x, y or z; none of it matters as it's too easy to hate those who succeed.

I enjoy the higher brow of this forum, there's a lot of mouth-breathers on the internet, it's nice to encounter witty folks. There are people who ride nothing but Italian made bikes, American bikes, only custom, only steel, steel lugged, carbon fiber, aluminum, scandium, local made etc. I just can't see the analogy or comparison derived from a man (Governor) who went to SEARS looking for a bike!

My first 10 speed cost nearly $300.00, way back in 1980! What did a Toyota truck cost in 1980? How about 2007? In other words, a $3K frame today might be a great deal! And how would the former Governor of Oregon know the difference? In terms of cycling or bike knowledge, the man was a fool (no offense). In terms of business, if he made his money there, then I'd point out to him, "Governor, in 1961 a Schwinn Superior was $132.95. What is a realistic and fair price for that bike in 2007?"

I know you say, "I'm a regular guy" but don't you own five or more bikes? How would you feel if someone said, "Hey, that TerryB guy is a snob! He owns more bikes today than I've owned my entire life!" You can hear an echo of hypocrisy, a little, right?

I do not mean to come across rudely, please know this. It's my intention to put out a few items of interest.

My first 'race' bike was a magenta/yellow Dave Scott model Ironman Centurion, 1985...I planned on taking the Ironman trophy away from Dave Scott. I couldn't afford anything special for the bike, just a water bottle and I heard all sorts of crap about my bike from the triathalon snobs. I laughed at all of them the loudest as I swam circles around them and outran them too. Golf and tennis are similar in that it can attract snobs (really any sport can). I can afford any golf club, I prefer my ten year old set, I just wouldn't listen to some dude who went to Walmart looking for golf clubs.

There are snobs playing $500.00 golf clubs and snobs playing $5K golf clubs. I think sometimes we see what we want to see (it's a dumb statement, our eyes only see, our minds interpret).

Lastly, I'll be riding a Serotta this Spring, I look forward to it. I really like supporting the company, made in America...three words that mean a lot to me.

Viper

[jpw]

Terry,

But just because your Uncle-in-Law could afford buying Serotta's company, but refused to buy a bike at $4K as it's, "Insane", this doesn't mean that he knows diddly about bikes. Clearly anyone who walked into Sears looking for a bike...tells me the man knows nothing about bicycles whatsoever. "He told me about the time he walked into Sears looking for a mountain bike and walked right out when he realized it cost $699" confirms the man was not a cyclist. Why take advice about a bike or the sport of cycling from someone who knows nothing?

Governors govern, that's what he did best. He made money somehow, of course and let's say he made it in the stock market...should he take advice from my eight year old nephew when it comes to NASDAQ?

People should celebrate and enjoy their wealth. I'm certain I could look at something, some element of the former Governor and gasp at what he spent on object x, y or z; none of it matters as it's too easy to hate those who succeed.

I enjoy the higher brow of this forum, there's a lot of mouth-breathers on the internet, it's nice to encounter witty folks. There are people who ride nothing but Italian made bikes, American bikes, only custom, only steel, steel lugged, carbon fiber, aluminum, scandium, local made etc. I just can't see the analogy or comparison derived from a man (Governor) who went to SEARS looking for a bike!

My first 10 speed cost nearly $300.00, way back in 1980! What did a Toyota truck cost in 1980? How about 2007? In other words, a $3K frame might be a great deal! And how would the former Governor of Oregon know the difference? In terms of cycling or bike knowledge, the man was a fool (no offense).

I know you say, "I'm a regular guy" but don't you own five or more bikes? How would you feel if someone said, "Hey, that TerryB guy is a snob! He owns more bikes today than I've owned my entire life!" You can hear an echo of hypocrisy, a little, right?

I do not mean to come across rudely, please know this. It's my intention to put out a few items of interest.

My first 'race' bike was a magenta/yellow Dave Scott model Ironman Centurion, 1985...I planned on taking the Ironman trophy away from Dave Scott. I couldn't afford anything special for the bike, just a water bottle and I heard all sorts of crap about my bike from the triathalon snobs. I laughed at all of them the loudest as I swam circles around them and outran them too. Golf and tennis are similar in that it can attract snobs (really any sport can). I can afford any golf club, I prefer my ten year old set, I just wouldn't listen to some dude who went to Walmart looking for golf clubs.

There are snobs playing $500.00 golf clubs and snobs playing $5K golf clubs. I think sometimes we see what we want to see.

Lastly, I'll be riding a Serotta this Spring, I look forward to it. I really like supporting the company, made in America...three words that mean a lot to me.

Viper

Is it that important where something was made? Surely the 'who' and the 'why' count for more. Just a casual observation; nothing more. :-)

[J.Greene]

But nothing I rode compared (to me) to the Serotta I rode. (Concours Ti) It made me feel connected with the road in a way that I really can't describe.

This is the whole thing right here above. The only reason to choose one bike over another atmo.

Keep in mind we give our opinions here to amuse ourselves, not actually be helpful. So follow your instinct first and last.

JG

ps, pete gives helpful advice.

[Pete Serotta]

Now I guess I will be judged as somehow inferior as I will be buying a "stock" Serotta instead of a custom one. :D

No,,,it is fits and puts a smile on your face - THAT IT ALL THAT MATTERS!!! :cool:

[atdamico]

No,,,it is fits and puts a smile on your face - THAT IT ALL THAT MATTERS!!! :cool:

Spot on. I was being tongue in cheek on the stock bike statement. My guess is that my bike has been bought, is hidden (in the upstairs closet) waiting to be put under the tree in about 5 weeks!

[ti_boi]

Does it help? God I hope so.





These bikes are amazing. If you haven't figured that out by now then you need help. :banana:

[Fixed]

The hierarchy thing is correct. I ride a stock Concours and nobody around here likes me. I think it's because of the bike... :confused:
you ride a bike i like you bro and your bike
cheers

[rounder]

I was reading the original post which asked whether serotta benefits by hosting the forum. An accountant (like me) would ask...well how much does it cost to host the forum and what does it do to sales/bottom line, etc. I have no idea. All I know is that sales have not increased directly from me because of the forum...already had them before I even knew the forum existed. On the other hand, I would recommend that anyone looking for a new nice bike at least consider serotta (already have). Also, folks in my bike club have told me that they like my bike...that has to be worth something. As far as forum discussions go, they cover pretty much everything...what color you should paint your bike, what music you should listen to, politics, etc. Some discussions get pretty heated but, in the end, I would go bike riding with everyone here. So...does serotta benefit by hosting the forum...not sure but I hope so. We all do.

[ti_boi]

No offense rounder.....but accountants and lawyers usually aren't invited to branding meetings....not an expert here....but I used to work in the wild world of internet marketing for one of those really hot firms during the dot com boom.....anyhow.....a couple of things that make this forum beyond useful for the Serotta Brand....

1. Firms are dying to have people spend more time on their sites....and here you have people coming every days for hours....it is a marketer's wet dream.

2. The viral nature of the forum...showing up in google searches...people visiting ....lurking....all of this makes the whole thing useful from a spread the word standpoint.

3. Loyalty...happy customers....identifying with the brand...embracing it beyond a commodity....and making alliances around the 'Serotta' name...priceless.


I could go on...but you get the picture...

[Viper]

I could go on...but you get the picture...

It's a place to air out the laundry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uu8ga3IDsM

[chakatrain]

To the OP's question, visiting this forum has kept alive my passion for Serotta and is directly responsible for me buying a stock Legend Ti from this summer's blow out sale. I wouldn't have bought that frame a few years ago (and a vast gulf of bike ingorance ago); visiting this site has greatly expanded my knowledge and passion of the craft and, in a small way, made me feel connected to the rather amazing bike community.

[rounder]

I could go on...but you get the picture...


Hope so. Maybe I didn't say it right, but love the forum. Not sure how you can measure it but there has to be lots of intangible benefits to serotta from the forum. I can't remember ever hearing anyone say anything thing bad about serotta...magazines, hearing people talk. etc. The forum has to be contributing to that.

[ti_boi]

I can't remember ever hearing anyone say anything thing bad about serotta...magazines, hearing people talk. etc. The forum has to be contributing to that.


Now that just sounds crazy to me......... ;)

Viper....they'll never kill my love of 'teh' Eagles......NEVER!! I TELL YOU! :rolleyes:

[tv_vt]

I hope Serotta gets something out of this, because I think everyone else sure does. I also visit RBR Forums and, time and again, I notice how much more friendly, civil, and literate this forum is compared to that one. Folks here are really knowledgeable about bikes and can express that knowledge really well. I appreciate that.

I think Serotta is cool to let the topics go where they go and to let folks rave about the other bike brands they love besides Serotta.

Thanks Serotta. And thanks to all of you Forumites. I'm usually just lurking here, but I'm an appreciative lurker.

TV

[HSG Racer]

I have been racing and enjoying cycling for many years. I don't race anymore but I still like to go fast and furious. I have been around cycling for a long time and I have met many Serotta owners over the years. Snobbery is not an adjective that I would use to describe Serotta owners. If anything, my experience has been the opposite. Most Serotta owners that I have met are quite friendly and knowledgeable. If you think Serotta owners are snobs then you probably havn't spent too much time around Colnago, Scott or Time owners.

The unfair perception that has been floating around for a while now is that Serotta owners are "fat old slow guys". It's an inaccurate perception and I would guess that it has been fueled by the fact that Serotta hasn't had much of a presence in racing over the last 10 years. With the recent introduction of HSG frames, full carbon frames and carbon seatstays, Serotta has made it clear that they can build racing frames that are at least as good as anyone else's.

IMO, what makes this forum so valuable is the wealth of information that it contains about every frame that Serotta sells. When I was in the market for a new frame this summer, I logged onto this forum and found many opinions, ride reports and pics that helped me with my decision to purchase an HSG frame. What other frame builder has such a tool? Parlee doesn't and neither does Colnago or Seven or anyone else. Initially, the Parlee Z3 was at the top of my list. In the end, I purchased the HSG over the Z3, and the information posted on this forum was one of the deciding factors for choosing the HSG.

:D

[benb]

I think this forum probably does have a net benefit for Serotta. It may however contribute to that "idea" that Serottas are for slow rich old guys. The younger crowd may see that in the posts even if everyone here denies it. It can't hurt Serotta that many mass market chinese/taiwanese built bicycles cost just as much as a Serotta these days though.

What I think is interesting and got ignored in the thread is how different people behave on this forum and what it says.

Serotta always looks good here, even though they provide the forum they say very little, just enough to show they are reading & watching. Not enough to indicate they might be wasting time that could be spent on building great bikes..

If lots of folks at Serotta were posting heavily on this site I would definitely start to fear they were wasting time, which would detract from my opinion of the company. This may or may not have already happened for me in terms of other companies/builders/people posting a lot on the internet.

[Ahneida Ride]

No ...it is fits and puts a smile on your face - THAT IT ALL THAT MATTERS!!! :cool:

Wiser words never spoken.

The best bike in the world is the one that does exactly that!

Serottas seem to have a habit of generating smiles. :D

[abqhudson]

I hope so. I, for one, very much appreciate this aspect of Serotta customer service.