A Plea to the Experts

[MsRN]

Okay,

I'm finally old enough that my 'beater' bike (a 56cm Klein Quantum--pre-Tre--with 9-speed DA) has succeeded in beating me up (headaches, vomiting) within 45 minutes of starting out. So now it goes on the indoor trainer, until I can find a young racer sort who's foolish enough....er, I mean, aggressive and tough enough....to put this light, mean machine to its proper uses. Great bike, if you're a young racer, and I still like it's stiff, quick handling and efficient drivetrain. That being said, my Ritchey Road Logic (Dedacciai Zero tubing) with 9-speed Chorus/Record and a Ti Swift is now my only road ride, and it's a very sweet one (or will be, when I finally get the *@#!ing Brooks broken in). Doesn't beat me up, and brings back fond memories of my Gitane TdF with Simplex SuperLJ.

When I bought the Ritchey back in 2K, the two best production frames I'd heard of were the Ritchey, and the CSi. The Ritchey spoke to me loud and clear the first time I rode it; I never thought a bike could have a soul until the cool, crisp night I first took it out. There was no question that we would be together. But the unridden CSi has always tugged at a corner of my psyche, whispering seductively to me. "You can love two steel frames," it says, 'just give me a chance, too." And so, with an empty space where once there was a Klein, I'm tempted to fill it with another steel frame that will just beg me to ride it.

Still with me? This is where I plead for your help. My LBS fitter recommended a CSi, but also suggested I look at the Colorado CR(L). He also suggested I consider a custom frame, and Llewellyn, Sachs (yes, I KNOW RS has closed his client list...) and Kelly Bedford are tempting options--for the future, when I've saved $6-8K for a frame/fork. For now, I'd dearly love to build up a used Serotta. Here are my questions, for those in the know: how do the Colorado and the CSi differ, in ride quality, handling, stiffness, etc.? SHOULD I hold out for a CSi, or is the CR 95-105% of the CSi? Any known issues with either? And, if you feel like it, what is reasonable for me to pay for either?

Thanks so much for your help, and Tailwinds!

M :)

[Elefantino]

Look for an Atlanta. Cheaper on the used market than the CSi and, for my money (and I spent them on both), as nice a ride.

[fjaws]

The CSI is a dream. Stiff where it should be stiff and compliant where it should be compliant. I owned one when I lived in Oklahoma and did a lot of riding on Oklahoma and Texas chip-n-seal roads. You could ride on it all day on the CSI with no problems yet when you stand to accelerate or climb there is no question you're aboard a top-o-the-line race rig. It's a phenomenal bike and it's no accident it was the standard Serotta measured all other bikes against where ride quality was concerned. You won't be disappointed if you decide to purchase one.

[rwsaunders]

No need to go custom in the short term if a stock CSI fits. I've seen used CSI frames run anywhere from $500 to $1,000. Most of the custom builders that are known to the Forum average 12-24 months out for a frame.

[Birddog]

The CSi is the benchmark. Although I've never seen it confirmed officially, a CIII
is essentially a tig welded CSi (same tubes, no lugs). An Atlanta is about 85% the same as a CSi and represents a bettter value, although not quite the same cachet. I have both a CSi and an Atlanta, and I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference if blindfolded. I think the CR is a little further removed "genetically" than the Atlanta, but I could be mistaken.
Birddog

[Ozz]

Put a WTB (Want to Buy) ad in the classifieds for a CSI and see what pops up. Be sure to include your fit numbers / size of desired bike.

If you are in the 6' range, this might work: http://serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64931

Steel bikes have not held their value very well and you might find a bargain. Don't rule out a CDA (Coeur d'Acier), as it is basically the same as a CSI, but it TIG welded rather than lugged or fillet brazed. It was also know as a Colorado III or CIII.

The CSI is a great ride....



:beer:

[Elefantino]

An Atlanta is about 85% the same as a CSi and represents a bettter value, although not quite the same cachet.
However, saying "I ride an Atlanta" is a much better pickup line than "I ride a CSi."

I tried it out on my wife and it works. Guaranteed.

[Smiley]

A CSI pick up is fine but a CIII or CDA is even better with modern tubing and CS stays and a carbone fork. You can't go WRONG unless u screw up the size you need :)

[Ken Robb]

welcome to the Forum. You will find lots of info and opinions on this subject by searching the archives here. :)

[zap]

If you find the Klein stiff, imo the CSI and Atlanta will not improve the ride.

I tested both back in the day with my wheels and found the ride quite stiff and the frames far to heavy.

Though the steering is a bit quick, the Klein overall is a better frameset for me than either the csi and atlanta.

Now my wife loves her Serotta 650c super special tig csi so go figure.

Listen to Smiley in regards to newer rides.

But really, you need to go out and test bikes with your wheels.

[Ozz]

A CSI pick up is fine but a CIII or CDA is even better .... :)
Booooooo!!!!.....Booooooo, Smiley!!!!

:D

:beer:

[Smiley]

Booooooo!!!!.....Booooooo, Smiley!!!!

:D

:beer:


Guys the Columbus Nobium tubeset in oversize is much better than what was available in Reynolds as limited due to lug sizes for the older CSI's its true, my Uniscasi is Da Bomb

[Ken Robb]

Guys the Columbus Nobium tubeset in oversize is much better than what was available in Reynolds as limited due to lug sizes for the older CSI's its true, my Uniscasi is Da Bomb

I thought the Clll was tig welded using the same tubes as CSi for at least a few years. No???

[Ozz]

I thought the Clll was tig welded using the same tubes as CSi for at least a few years. No???
yes....IIRC, the columbus tubes (C5S?) started about 2005 or so?

In 2003, the CIII was all steel, and the CDA had the carbon seat stay.

My CSI uses the C4S tubes, and has the fillet brazed head tube cuz there were no 1.125" headtube lugs available at that time.

I think the debate whether C4S or C5S tubes are best is a whole 'nuther thread. I thought the C5S had the same dimensions as the C4S, it just had some "niobium" pixiedust mixed into it.... ;)

[MsRN]

Thanks to everyone who's responded thus far! I really should have expected this diversity of opinion; I guess that just means I have more bikes to try out! :)

First, to Zap:

Should I really believe that a virtual community member ("zap only exist in servers. zap doesn't have a profile but top speed has reached the speed of light when traveling between computers and servers") has ever actually RIDDEN a real, honest-to-goodness, physical Klein, and not a virtual one?

More seriously, Zap, the comfort change on the Klein has only been in the last two to three years, when my normal, twenty-one-mile 'around the block' loop on the Klein started to give me trouble. By trouble, I mean nausea, projectile vomiting, vertigo, paresthesias, and excruciating tension headaches. First time, I thought I'd just caught a bug. Second time, I knew something was wrong, but it was end of season, anyway. Next season, N/V/HA all over again. So, I jettisoned the aero bars (I was thinking about trying tris), as I figured I was cranking my neck too far back. No change. Then, I went and got properly fit. My first ride on the properly-fit bike, convinced me that I NEVER wanted to ride it again. No nausea, but WORLD OF PAIN. I couldn't move my neck for three or four days. This, from a bike that had initially surprised me with its stiff, yet compliant, ride, and had given me no trouble for two years. The Ritchey, with an amazingly similar fit, never gave me a hint of trouble. I spoke with my fitter, who felt the frame was to blame. I posited that the change from my CK/Mavic Reflex/WS Revo spoked-wheels to a set of aero Cane Creeks might be partially to blame, but was promptly shot down on that theory. Assuming I don't sell the Klein sooner, I'll probably sand down and re-glue the CK wheels soon, and find out if Craig's wrong. Oh, did I mention that I have a chronic migraine disorder? Lately, I've been working with a spine PT, on the theory that I have a neck strength imbalance, and there appears to be some truth to that theory. So, I may yet ride the Klein again...
As for stiffness, the Ritchey is no noodle; I don't tolerate bikes with soft drivetrains (i.e. LeMond Zurich 853, most steel Treks I've ridden). Something about being able to shift without using my hands just bugs me... :crap:

As for weight, I can stand to lose far more from MY frame, than I can from my bikes frame. Best place to save weight, IMHO, is in the wheels; less rotating mass means less inertia to overcome on hills, in sprints, etc.. A solid frame isn't a liability for me.

To Ozz, Smiley....quit flaming each other, or I'll make you go ice riding with me, so help me! :)

Elefantino, Smiley: A good set of gams and a healthy tan work worlds better than ANY pick-up line, fellas! :p

rwsaunders: I agree on the custom front. The reasons to consider custom builders are many, but quick turn-around and low cost aren't among them. Though I'd much rather put 10 large into a Sachs or Llewellyn, than into a Madone. (Sorry--Trek is just down the road from Madison, WI. They've produced many stunningly competent (read: average) bikes, but none that really 'wow' me. Not really a fan, as I think they're overpriced).

aghudson: Thanks for the suggestion of a Ti Serotta; it might be the right call, given Wisconsins typically mercurial weather (I DO J.P. Weigle all my steel bikes, regardless). I've heard very strong praise for the Ottrott, so may have to give one a spin...:)

M :)

[cmg]

If you fit a used CSI then buy it and save up for the dream bike. Like a previous poster said "Stiff where it should be stiff and compliant where it should be compliant." Just sold mine cause it wasn't the right size and bike lust took over for something else. My experience with it was the same as "fjaws", ride all day comfort. swapped out the drive train from a Cinelli Super corsa and you imediately could tell the difference. i also had an Atlanta in 2000 and the CSI was a better ride.

[Peter P.]

What's tugging at your heart is a Serotta of the same vintage as your Ritchey because at the time you chose your Ritchey, you spurned the Serotta, and now you're wondering, "what if...".

The only places you'll find the Serotta you seek is in the Classifieds here, on Craigslist, or eBay. You must be patient. And you must accept its condition might not be perfect, but if you keep your mind open that if the frame is sound, then it's worth a refinish after purchase, you'll have the frames of your dreams.

I want to see photos of the Ritchey.

[spiderman]

That I passed down the line
When I built my dream bike, an 03 ottrott.
I now have an 05 csi built up
And ride often.
The csi is smooth yet more lively
Than the crl somehow.
If you live near Iowa
Maybe you would like to borrow it
For a few weeks...

[jumpjube]

We have a bunch of steel steeds -- each has its own strengths & each gets ridden.

But earlier this year we picked up an '03 CSi frame/F2 fork (custom) from a fellow forumite, & both of us learned the meaning of "stable" and "smooth" and "planted" yet still responsive. Although that one was for my wife, it fast became mine. A bit later, we hooked an '01 CSi w/ F1 fork (stock) for her, also on this forum.

While neither of us has ridden other Serottas, I can't see how you could go wrong with the CSi unless, that is, your tastes run to twitchy and nervous or unless you want ultramodern and light. For us, however, the CSi does it all and does it all day long.

Happy hunting.

[Jeff N.]

I own both a custom JB painted Atlanta and CSi (both pictured in the "Serotta" section on this forum), as well as a stock blue Carrera Zeus, and now an as yet unbuilt Colnago Master (Moltini), so I've got the lugged steel niche pretty much filled. Any of these fine rides are highly recommended. I find very little discernable difference in the ride of the first three on this list. Should you find any of these at an attractive price, by all means go for it. Sweet rides one and all. Jeff N.