S&S Couplers on Serottas

[93legendti]

Does Serotta still offer this option? I'm looking for a travel bike option that is a little more compact now that we have a little daughter. I'm thinking about the Concourse or Fierte Ti.

[Satellite]

I don't know if Serotta does the S&S Couplers but Moots does and I am ordering my bike this week. Does anyone have experience with the S&S Couplers? I would like to hear any CONS to the S&S Couplers. Where do you get the cables that quick snap together?

I am also ordering the Moots YBB with the Rohloff Speed Hub option. This is going to be the simplest bike ever; I am hoping for no maintenance. It is actually for my wife I love to work on bikes just not hers. She gets it so muddy and dirty and just leaves it that way. It drives me nuts. Then she always wonders why she gets ghost shifting problems. My bikes get a total clean and tune job after every ride. That is part of the fun of riding.

I read you can get older bikes retro fit with the S&S couplers. Only Steel and Ti you can't retro fit Aluminum frames. If I like the way her Moots turns out I may have one of my steeds converted.

Best Regards,

Satellite

[Bradford]

Serotta is listed on the S&S site as a builder, and I know they have installed them in the past. A Concourse or a Fierte would be a perfect coupled bike.

I have a tandem with S&S couplers and I do not think there are any negatives to using them. No negatives on ride quality and they work as advertised.

Just be aware that it does take some time to break down and build up the bike if you are putting it in a box. You need to put padding all over the bike, take of one crank arm (for tandems at least), and take off things like bottle cages and handle bars. It takes me about 2 hours to break down the tandem and about 2 hours to build it up. I’ve broken it down faster when I had to, but it isn’t something you want to rush through or you’ll start making mistakes. Remember I’m doing this on a tandem and fitting the whole bike into one S&S case and the wheels into another, so I’m sure I single would be much less work.

If there are any negatives, it would be that S&S recommends Teflon lube, which can be hard to find. I just bought about 10 years worth the last time I found it, so I’m all set for a while. I’m sure a high quality grease would work as a substitute, but I’m a stickler for following directions. In addition, couplers add some additional weight.

As for the quick release cables, only the cable splitter itself is a special piece, the cables are just normal cables. You can replace the cables anytime with new cables (actually, it is really easy to do). Your bike should come with cable splitters already. If not, your bike shop should be able to get them. I put a drum break on my tandem last year and my LBS (Wheelworks) was able to get me a splitter. They aren’t cheap, however. (Actually, none of the extra stuff is cheap – two cases and padding will run you about $600).

Retrofitting is another kettle of fish. Some builders will do it, some will not. A friend of mine retrofitted a bike with couplers and it took him a few calls before he could find someone willing to do it. And it will ruin the paint, so a re-spray will be necessary.

[wheelworks]

Yes, Serotta can make an S&S frame. The tubing will be different though tham the colorado tubing but it is possible and they have made S&S frames in the past. Give Serotta a ring or your nearest Dealer and they can fill you in on your options

[11.4]

I fairly recently got a Legend Ti with S&S couplers. There are a number of design issues to think through:

1. The tubing wall thickness has to be enough to be supportive of the coupler, so you typically end up with straight gauge or close-to-straight, depending on your frame size. In retrospect, check with Kelly about whether it makes sense to go for more than a base-line Ti frame, depending on whether you can use the better Ti tubing sets. And if anyone is recommending a Ti frame from another maker, just bear the same thing in mind -- the "legendary ride" of any maker won't be quite the same after tubing changes to allow for S&S couplers. I'm not at all saying that a frame with S&S couplers won't be great, just that you should compare S&S-coupled bikes with each other, not with uncoupled frames.

2. Frames broken down and shipped frequently tend to collect dings, so I'd go light on the carbon (I have a carbon fork but nothing else, since I was having parts dinged during shipment ... and airport security inspections).

3. S&S couplers are available in lots of sizes in steel, but not as many for titanium. That means you don't have full freedom in picking tubing diameters. I wanted an oversize downtube but couldn't get, for example, a 1-1/2" downtube because there wasn't a titanium coupler made for it. So I either had to go up a size or down a size.

4. Ti frames need titanium couplers, which add about $900+ to the bike. Be sure you need it; on a Concours or Fierte that's a lot of extra cost. I'd consider steel with steel couplers for a better price point.

5. Titanium couplers make you very careful of galling. I always ensure I use the specific lubricant they provide (I'd use Ti prep except it's actually a lot messier and, above all, I want the warranty if anything went wrong). And I dumped the funky hook wrench they provide and went with VAR lockring pliers. You get precise control, no slippage, and you use both notches at the same time so the load isn't all on one notch.

6. Dealing with brake and derailleur cables is a hassle. I was using the quick-disconnects for a while (and tried a couple different versions). It's not that they don't work, but they do tend to bounce against the frame, they collect more muck in bad weather, and they're just plain bulky. My last couple trips I simply disconnected the rear brake and both derailleur cables and pulled them back past the S&S couplers. I packed spare cables just in case I had any problems, and used one when a derailleur cable started to fray a bit, but refitting cables isn't all that much of a hassle. If you have to do a new cable, it may stretch a bit but again that's not much to deal with on a trip. Simple solutions are usually the best.

All told, I love my S&S-coupled Legend Ti and travel with it a lot. But for the cost of couplers, have you considered a different travel case instead? After lugging Trico Ironcases and the like all over, I finally got a BikePro Race Case. It rolls vertically (not on its side like the Trico) and with the shoulder strap used as a tether, you can pull a wheel-around suitcase and push a stroller, and the Race Case follows behind you. After a couple dozen trips, a bike in the Race Case doesn't get nicks as much as an S&S-coupled bike. And reassembly is faster, so you aren't trying to be a mechanic when your spouse and/or kids want you doing something else. The BikePro can be folded over and squashed down to fit in a compact back seat or a trunk, unlike Tricos, and it is superbly protective of the bike. All your clothing, helmet, shoes, etc. can go in the BikePro as well, saving on luggage space if you're traveling with family as well.

[11.4]

On retrofitting couplers, a couple additional points:

1. It's expensive since you have to repaint as well. Add shipping back and forth, framework, and repainting, and you are away from your bike for a couple months. It all adds up in time and cost.

2. When a new frame is built with couplers, the couplers are added to the unassembled tubing and then the bike is simply built with the couplers already in place. It's simple and reliable. When you retrofit, there's a lot of careful measurement. I've seen a fair number of retrofits that are just slightly off -- either a strong retweaking of alignment is needed or the couplers don't quite align perfectly and assembly is a hassle. Serotta won't retrofit couplers, in part for this reason.

3. Your tubing wall thickness or tubing diameter may not be ideal or even possible for couplers (see my adjacent post in this thread).

All told, I'd go for a fairly bulletproof new frame (the Concours or Fierte Ti would be good examples, although since the Fierte is a stock frame I doubt Serotta will do it with couplers) with an eye for durability. It also ensures that when you're on a trip, you don't have bike problems. A damaged frame is the ultimate bummer when you've traveled somewhere with your bike.

[Smiley]

I have sold a coupled Serotta in the past, a Peleton Ti which had Non Colorado Concept tubing ( DT and TT ) , they today will offer a coupling on any Colorado Concept tube which means that the coupler has to handle the ovalization of the tube . On a side note the coupler will add much more stiffness to a regular tube as evidenced by my client who purchased a Ti Peleton to use as a travel bike and prefered it ride over his racing Ti Legend , which he since has sold keeping the Ti Peleton . The Ti Peleton was a Colorado Concept rear end frame with a CC Seat Tube and round Ti DT and TT which made it a perfect S&S travel bike . This guy also chose to have this frame built as a compac frame which added to the frames ridgitity . It was a 57 cm frame set . If he ever sells it I am inline first to buy it from him. The fellow I speak of won the masters road race at age 45 about 7 years ago and is a very decorated masters road rider here in the DC metro area so I take him as much as an expert on ride quaities of his bikes . He owns at any time no less then 7 road frames and he's had many a Serotta in his stable. There is nothing that Serotta can't do with couplers today , expensive yes but you make the call on the coupler material you want for a Ti frame , I think you can get Ti or SST .

[Too Tall]

I got nuttin to add as you got the goods from the right people. Just to say that the hard to get silicone grease is easy to find and one application will last ages. For instance Ring Drive lube from Chris King is silicone and I'm quite sure automotive tune up grease is silicone.

[Bradford]

Very good responses.

11.4: I learned some things from you I didn’t know. My coupled tandem is steel, not ti, so I didn’t have some of the problems you described. I agree that it is much easier, and cheaper, to get a steel coupled bike. On the other hand, rust is more of an issue on a coupled bike than a non-coupled bike. My wife and I brought our tandem on our honeymoon this summer and took it from Jasper to Banff in the Canadian Rockies. One day, we got caught in a vicious down poor that soaked us to the bone. When I got home I completely cleaned the bike inside and out and found some rust developing along the tubes around the coupler joints. I cleaned it out as much as I could and applied framesaver, but it did make me think that ti or aluminum would be something to think about for a travel bike. When you are on a tour, sometimes you don’t have the option to stay in on a rainy day, and in a heavy rain moisture will get in past the couplers.

I’m going to check out the VAR lockring pliers, that sounds like a good tip.

Also, I haven’t had the problem with the dings you talk about, but I wrap my bike in S&S padded wrap to an extreme point (which accounts for most of the break down/build up time). I also have the hard case, not the soft one. The only way I’m getting as much as a smudge on my bike is if I do it when disassembling/assembling the bike.

TT: Thanks for the tip on Chris King/Automotive tune up greases. I have been following the Co-Motion’s instructions literally, and they call for “Pure Teflon Grease.” I’ve found DuPont Teflon grease at Providence Bicycle and on-line, but most shops don’t carry it. When I run out of my current stash, I’ll switch over to one of your suggestions.

[11.4]

To clarify on Smiley's post and my own, the S&S coupler has to work with round tubing (since it's a threaded assembly -- hard to thread an oval). As a result, for the bottom bracket end of your down tube to be ovalized, for example, it ovalizes quite quickly below the bottom bracket. Same thing for the top tube at the seat-tube end. The swaged tapers that Serotta uses means that there may be a couple places on a round tube where couplers can fit, but if that happens at a thin spot or in the wrong position on the frame, it doesn't help. I'm sure there are tubing diameters and wall thicknesses in titanium which are available that permit butting in combination with couplers. This is easiest with smaller diameters (35 mm and smaller tubes). Above that point, it gets dicey, and if you are looking for an oversized ti tubing set (as I was) you may have more problems than Smiley ran into. I had a previous Legend that had a 1-1/2" down tube and wanted the same bike built with couplers. I had too much flexibility on a 1-3/8" down tube, especially for my primarily interest in bikes -- track match sprinting, where I do lots of road intervals and needed quite a lot of rigidity to avoid tire rub and false shifting during workouts -- so I had to go significantly oversized and into a realm where fewer S&S couplers were available (in ti).

All these issues are simplified in steel. There's a lot more tubing available, the couplers are available in more sizes, and a tubing set can be chosen to give most of what you want without compromising. And of course the coupler set only costs half as much (and is in stainless to boot, so ti-related problems are avoided). I'm thinking of doing a blow-out fixie for business travel -- something I can assemble in five minutes and ride readily wherever I am (and pop the brakes off if I am in a velodrome town as well, by the way). This would unequivocally be in steel. In fact, while I really like my Legend Ti, I could have had a dynamite frame for $2K less in steel. I'm not trying to start a ti vs. steel war here, just to say that for what you're looking for, steel could do really well for you. And if you're worried about internal tube corrosion on a steel frame, let me point out here that with couplers all tubes are fully accessible for FrameSaver or other anti-corrosion treatments. FrameSaver needs to be applied before a bike is exposed to weather, so do a comprehensive three-layer coat before you ever build up the bike. It'd be the perfect solution. At least for me -- but that's what all custom bikes are about anyway, right?

PS: On the teflon grease, the Chris King lubricant is a very different density. I'd be extremely skeptical that it does what the Dupont stuff does, and almost dead certain that if it ever galled, it wouldn't be warrantied. The Dupont stuff comes in a very handy syringe-like container (like you can get TiPrep in) that travels fine, lasts years, and is about $7. Why take the risk with anything else? The biggest problem with galling in ti couplers, I'm told, is actually not getting the dirt out of the threads or with reassembling it without sufficient grease. With some of the Dupont grease in place, I've never had any water leakage whatsoever.

[davep]

I have an S&S coupled steel Co-Motion and have nothing to add about the couplers construction or usage than what others have said.

But, for me, a large con - the biggest problem with traveling is the TSA. On two trips with my bike, which means 4 legs, I have a problem once. On a trip to Europe I don't think the case was opened, but on last years TdFL it was opened on both the outbound and return flight. At the airport here in Ft. Lauderdale, where the inspections are in the lobby, I was able to watch them opem the case and simply run a swab around without moving anything, and then reclosing. At Rochester, they took everything out to inspect and then could not get it repacked. I always put a note in the case with my cell phone number, and luckily the TSA called me and let me repack it. After a hilarious few minutes when they said I could tell then what to do but I couldn't touch anything, ("No, put the top tube that way." "Huh, what's a top tube?"), they let me repack it myself. They also confiscated my tube of ProLink and grease as hazordous material. I shudder to think what might have happened if they had not been courteous enough to call me. I am reconsidering using this as a travel bike, and will probably ship it in advance or use a BikePro or similar case.

[lewislw1]

Is it normal for water to leak into the frame with S&S couplers after riding in the rain? I know somone who experiences this with his S&S coupled Ti frame. He began taping the couples with electrical tape if it looked like a rain day. I don't think this is a real problem, but more an inconvenience.

Len

[11.4]

Water in your S&S couplers? I have ridden an S&S coupled bike through a Northwest winter and never seen signs of water getting in. I've owned a couple S&S bikes and I ride regularly with a couple people who ride rain or shine on steel S&S-coupled frames without any problems. Do you use enough of the Dupont teflon lubricant? It not only seals the threads but, more importantly, makes sure the threads tighten up properly. And are you checking the tightness on the couplers (depending on how a particular bike is built, they sometimes tend to work loose if they aren't tightened securely to begin with), since couplers that are slightly loose will definitely leak. I've heard of people trying teflon plumber's tape, but that also can cause the precision threads not to seat properly, which could actually exacerbate the whole issue. No promises if someone had leakage on a tandem -- I'd imagine the stresses are much greater on the couplers and could exacerbate problems.

[Bradford]

I always use plenty of grease, that isn't the problem.

I'm guessing it isn't the stress of the tandem as much as the location of the couplers. Two couplers are on the tube that is parallel to the ground, and that is where the water got in. Half bikes don't have this tube, so the couplers are in a better place.

[93legendti]

Thanks for the great responses. The reason I'm considering an S & S bike is with a young child and hopefully more on the way, space and ease of transportation is a big issue when travelling--those damn child car seats weigh a lot! Also, from the builders I have talked to, TI frames are better for the S & S bikes, since the tubes can take a little more abuse inherent in travel via air.

[MGS9500]

Here is my Serotta. Custom ordered in 2004. Used for over 1500 miles last year.
Rides like the standard bike without a creak or New Legend Ti

Carbon stays and fork

S and S couplers, ready to travel

FSA compact crank, 50-34

Weight at 17.5 lbs with couplersproblem.

[OldDog]

Nice paint...